Hours building: Questions, Ideas, Advice, Countries etc
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Seems to be the question of the decade so you'd think someone would have figured this out by now! How exactly can a guy get his foot into this darned industry??
I'm shy of 1500TT, 99% turbine from military. 850ish combat (which doesn't seem to mean a lick to hiring managers
). 550ish night/NVG. CFI, commercial instrument.
I have tried flight schools but I have no training experience and there seems to be about a million out of work CFI's. I have tried the gulf but can't get a serious look so far. Tour companies, ferry, ag, ENG, you name it.
I'm not trying to sound like I'm whining, I just really don't know how to make the transition from military to civil. None of my tactics seem to be working so I figured I'd better ask for some help from people who may have been in my shoes before!
What sort of job should I be looking for?
I'm shy of 1500TT, 99% turbine from military. 850ish combat (which doesn't seem to mean a lick to hiring managers
). 550ish night/NVG. CFI, commercial instrument.I have tried flight schools but I have no training experience and there seems to be about a million out of work CFI's. I have tried the gulf but can't get a serious look so far. Tour companies, ferry, ag, ENG, you name it.
I'm not trying to sound like I'm whining, I just really don't know how to make the transition from military to civil. None of my tactics seem to be working so I figured I'd better ask for some help from people who may have been in my shoes before!
What sort of job should I be looking for?
Hooker47
Of your 1500 hours, how much is PIC? That is your problem right there. There are thousands of civilian trained pilots with more hours and more civilian experience ahead of you in line. Unfortunately for you, as it is probably too late, but my advice to you would have been to stay in the military.
Also, in the civilian world--in the US anyways, we could care less about combat time.
Military is completely different to civilian flying. What follows is a repost of something I have on my computer---I cannot remember where I found it, but you may wish to read it thoroughly.
As for what job you should be looking for....If I was in your position right now---try outside of aviation.
Of your 1500 hours, how much is PIC? That is your problem right there. There are thousands of civilian trained pilots with more hours and more civilian experience ahead of you in line. Unfortunately for you, as it is probably too late, but my advice to you would have been to stay in the military.
Also, in the civilian world--in the US anyways, we could care less about combat time.
Military is completely different to civilian flying. What follows is a repost of something I have on my computer---I cannot remember where I found it, but you may wish to read it thoroughly.
First, the good news:
You have the best basic helicopter flying training in the world. But the emphasis should be on the word "basic."
Second, you have had discipline drummed into you if it wasn't there already. You know the value of standardization and attention to detail.
Those two things are about all you have going for you when you get out.
The bad news follows:
Flying on the outside is completely different from the military. I recommend sitting someplace quiet each day for about five minutes repeating this over and over to yourself:
"Flying on the outside is completely different from the military."
First off, management and labor: Management runs a business and is interested in profit, period. If you help the profit, fine, if not, you will have to go. This applies not only to people but to methods and equipment and supplies. This is not such a bad thing as it appears, just different. Get used to it. As to your relations with management, they are not your friends. They may tell you that, but they are not. The only way for a pilot group to safeguard its interests with managment is to organize and get a CBA. If you don't know about unions, learn. If you aren't "comfortable" with the idea of a union, change. You may be employed by a union operator; if so, keep any anti-union feelings you have well to yourself. If on the other hand you are employed by a non-union operator, you will sooner of later compare and contrast your lot with those of your friends who did go to work for a union shop. This alone will cause you to change any anti-union views you have.
Second, coworkers: Sooner or later you will have some disagreement with a coworker. Whenever this happens, say nothing; take two aspirin and lie down for a few hours, then get up and you yourself fix whatever problem the other person caused. Never mention it. This applies to getting along with pilots, mechanics, and medics in EMS. Trying to change other people in this business is absolutely impossible and will only lead to you getting a rep as a prick, and eventually, gotten rid of. If you are retired military, those of your co-worker pilots who do not have a pension coming in...both civilian and former military...will have some resentment at the difference between your financial status and theirs. You cannot change this, but the best thing you can do is to let it be known...subtly and quietly...that you support any effort on their part to better their own lot; what I am talking about here is union organization, and if you are retired you should support any union that is in place by willingly joining, and any drive that may occur in a non-union shop...but quietly, so that management will not terminate you (it happens).
Third, operations: Somebody once said (and I wish I could remember who) that military pilots are good at what they do but they are used to having a lot of help. This just about sums up the situation. Your job as a civilian pilot is to "manage" the aircraft while on shift. This means many things which I'll try to bullet-ize:
--On the first day of the job you should be familiar with your operating area, including terrain, general climate characteristics, any special use airspace, and all B/C/D airspace. You should be able to fly anywhere in your area day or night without getting into any trouble with ATC.
--You must be able to stay up on the weather using only a weather computer, or even more limited tools, such that you can launch on a VFR flight within 5 minutes and on an IFR flight with just a few more minutes of planning.
--You must be able to determine the airworthiness and maintenance status of the aircraft, including compliance with all ADs and inspection intervals, and avoid any overflights of same during your shift. Additionally you must work closely with a mechanic who you'll probably see only a few times for brief intervals each week to document and follow up on any maintenance discrepancies. You must service the aircraft, including fuel, oils, and oxygen for EMS, plus do whatever preventive maintenance is allowed for your operation, such as changing light bulbs and clearing chip indications.
--You must accurately and completely, without fail and without error, completed required paperwork concerning the company's flight operations, the aircraft's flight hours, and your own flight and training activities. Any errors you make will be discovered, the later, the worse for you, and they will not be looked at lightly, since you will cause your coworkers to do extra work.
--There is no urgency in civilian flying worth anyone's life. If you take the attitude that there is, you will soon find yourself in all kinds of trouble and eventually fired. The "word" will be put out on you. Management and in some cases your co-workers will try to give you the impression that a flight is worth some risk of life, however this is a total falsehood. Repeat after me: "Flying on the outside is completely different from the military."
--Multi-Tasking: You are expected to be able to single-handedly accomplish all flying aspects of a job from start to finish, including communications, navigation, and aircraft handling...the latter of which may vary in one hour from setting the aircraft into a hover hole to landing at a class B airport.
--Weather flying skills: You must do your own risk assessment, nobody is going to do it for you, and it must be nearly automatic and in near real time. This can only be done by staying up on the weather, being familiary with the characteristics of your operating area, and constantly seeking information from whatever source you can think of. If you fly a VFR ship and are so stupid as to press on in deteriorating weather conditions without making a precautionary landing and eventually punch in, you must be able to control the aircraft by reference to flight instruments sufficient to keep it right side up until you can regain VMC, or get enought help to make an approach somewhere. You may think this is simple but try doing it unplanned, at night, with no copilot, no autopilot/SAS, and with precip and turbulence thrown in. It is not nearly as simple as it sounds and in fact is well-nigh impossible, therefore the emphasis should be on not accepting a flight unless you are sure of the weather, AND terminating it (i.e., precautionary landing) when you find deteriorating conditions that you can't get out of...by turning around, for example.
Lastly there is the matter of attitude. I am not talking just about ego here, although that is a large part of it. Your Country and even some of its citizens are grateful for your service. However, when you take off the uniform, you take off your former identity, and it means nothing our here anyway. The only job at hand is the job at hand. No matter who you were, where you've been, or where you think you're going, you're "right here, right now." This is a good thing to keep in mind on a daily and even an hourly basis. The main thing I am referring to is the attempt by many people I have seen to try to live in the past. Never, never use the phrase, "In the [fill in branch of service], we used to do it such-and-such a way." You are not there any more, nobody cares, and you have to do it the civilian way, period. If you don't or can't, nobody will be amused, they will just write you off as another military putz who can't adjust and get rid of you.
I have written this long post in an attempt to set out and correct, before they occur, many common errors I have made and which I have seen other military pilots, especially retireees, make when they transition to civilian flying. I have done this because I really would like to help ex-military people who don't know these things, and who would otherwise have to learn them...as I did...the hard way.
When you get out here you are going to find yourselves flying with people who, you will think, have much less "experience" than you, but who are able to out-perform you operationally, in terms of speed, accuracy, and ease. You might find yourself asking what they know that you don't, and some of these very points are what I have tried to outline.
The only way to compete in this game is to learn the rules and play by them. If you try to do otherwise you will not last. You probably won't even get the chance to start.
You have the best basic helicopter flying training in the world. But the emphasis should be on the word "basic."
Second, you have had discipline drummed into you if it wasn't there already. You know the value of standardization and attention to detail.
Those two things are about all you have going for you when you get out.
The bad news follows:
Flying on the outside is completely different from the military. I recommend sitting someplace quiet each day for about five minutes repeating this over and over to yourself:
"Flying on the outside is completely different from the military."
First off, management and labor: Management runs a business and is interested in profit, period. If you help the profit, fine, if not, you will have to go. This applies not only to people but to methods and equipment and supplies. This is not such a bad thing as it appears, just different. Get used to it. As to your relations with management, they are not your friends. They may tell you that, but they are not. The only way for a pilot group to safeguard its interests with managment is to organize and get a CBA. If you don't know about unions, learn. If you aren't "comfortable" with the idea of a union, change. You may be employed by a union operator; if so, keep any anti-union feelings you have well to yourself. If on the other hand you are employed by a non-union operator, you will sooner of later compare and contrast your lot with those of your friends who did go to work for a union shop. This alone will cause you to change any anti-union views you have.
Second, coworkers: Sooner or later you will have some disagreement with a coworker. Whenever this happens, say nothing; take two aspirin and lie down for a few hours, then get up and you yourself fix whatever problem the other person caused. Never mention it. This applies to getting along with pilots, mechanics, and medics in EMS. Trying to change other people in this business is absolutely impossible and will only lead to you getting a rep as a prick, and eventually, gotten rid of. If you are retired military, those of your co-worker pilots who do not have a pension coming in...both civilian and former military...will have some resentment at the difference between your financial status and theirs. You cannot change this, but the best thing you can do is to let it be known...subtly and quietly...that you support any effort on their part to better their own lot; what I am talking about here is union organization, and if you are retired you should support any union that is in place by willingly joining, and any drive that may occur in a non-union shop...but quietly, so that management will not terminate you (it happens).
Third, operations: Somebody once said (and I wish I could remember who) that military pilots are good at what they do but they are used to having a lot of help. This just about sums up the situation. Your job as a civilian pilot is to "manage" the aircraft while on shift. This means many things which I'll try to bullet-ize:
--On the first day of the job you should be familiar with your operating area, including terrain, general climate characteristics, any special use airspace, and all B/C/D airspace. You should be able to fly anywhere in your area day or night without getting into any trouble with ATC.
--You must be able to stay up on the weather using only a weather computer, or even more limited tools, such that you can launch on a VFR flight within 5 minutes and on an IFR flight with just a few more minutes of planning.
--You must be able to determine the airworthiness and maintenance status of the aircraft, including compliance with all ADs and inspection intervals, and avoid any overflights of same during your shift. Additionally you must work closely with a mechanic who you'll probably see only a few times for brief intervals each week to document and follow up on any maintenance discrepancies. You must service the aircraft, including fuel, oils, and oxygen for EMS, plus do whatever preventive maintenance is allowed for your operation, such as changing light bulbs and clearing chip indications.
--You must accurately and completely, without fail and without error, completed required paperwork concerning the company's flight operations, the aircraft's flight hours, and your own flight and training activities. Any errors you make will be discovered, the later, the worse for you, and they will not be looked at lightly, since you will cause your coworkers to do extra work.
--There is no urgency in civilian flying worth anyone's life. If you take the attitude that there is, you will soon find yourself in all kinds of trouble and eventually fired. The "word" will be put out on you. Management and in some cases your co-workers will try to give you the impression that a flight is worth some risk of life, however this is a total falsehood. Repeat after me: "Flying on the outside is completely different from the military."
--Multi-Tasking: You are expected to be able to single-handedly accomplish all flying aspects of a job from start to finish, including communications, navigation, and aircraft handling...the latter of which may vary in one hour from setting the aircraft into a hover hole to landing at a class B airport.
--Weather flying skills: You must do your own risk assessment, nobody is going to do it for you, and it must be nearly automatic and in near real time. This can only be done by staying up on the weather, being familiary with the characteristics of your operating area, and constantly seeking information from whatever source you can think of. If you fly a VFR ship and are so stupid as to press on in deteriorating weather conditions without making a precautionary landing and eventually punch in, you must be able to control the aircraft by reference to flight instruments sufficient to keep it right side up until you can regain VMC, or get enought help to make an approach somewhere. You may think this is simple but try doing it unplanned, at night, with no copilot, no autopilot/SAS, and with precip and turbulence thrown in. It is not nearly as simple as it sounds and in fact is well-nigh impossible, therefore the emphasis should be on not accepting a flight unless you are sure of the weather, AND terminating it (i.e., precautionary landing) when you find deteriorating conditions that you can't get out of...by turning around, for example.
Lastly there is the matter of attitude. I am not talking just about ego here, although that is a large part of it. Your Country and even some of its citizens are grateful for your service. However, when you take off the uniform, you take off your former identity, and it means nothing our here anyway. The only job at hand is the job at hand. No matter who you were, where you've been, or where you think you're going, you're "right here, right now." This is a good thing to keep in mind on a daily and even an hourly basis. The main thing I am referring to is the attempt by many people I have seen to try to live in the past. Never, never use the phrase, "In the [fill in branch of service], we used to do it such-and-such a way." You are not there any more, nobody cares, and you have to do it the civilian way, period. If you don't or can't, nobody will be amused, they will just write you off as another military putz who can't adjust and get rid of you.
I have written this long post in an attempt to set out and correct, before they occur, many common errors I have made and which I have seen other military pilots, especially retireees, make when they transition to civilian flying. I have done this because I really would like to help ex-military people who don't know these things, and who would otherwise have to learn them...as I did...the hard way.
When you get out here you are going to find yourselves flying with people who, you will think, have much less "experience" than you, but who are able to out-perform you operationally, in terms of speed, accuracy, and ease. You might find yourself asking what they know that you don't, and some of these very points are what I have tried to outline.
The only way to compete in this game is to learn the rules and play by them. If you try to do otherwise you will not last. You probably won't even get the chance to start.
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Thanks Gordy, that is a great post. The vast majority of the recommendations have always been my biggest beef with how things are done in the military so I'm glad to see I wasn't that far off base.
I have 1411 TT and 1366 PIC. The only reason I bother to mention combat time is because I am below the magical 1500 mark and am trying to market myself better. In my line of thinking, experience (regardless of the industry) obtained in more difficult areas is qualitatively given more weight than that obtained in "safe" environments. In other words, an hour of combat time is not equal to an hour flying traffic patterns. Is there an error in this?
I am already pursuing my Master's in Economics which should give me a much wider berth of career options. Good advice for anyone.
I have 1411 TT and 1366 PIC. The only reason I bother to mention combat time is because I am below the magical 1500 mark and am trying to market myself better. In my line of thinking, experience (regardless of the industry) obtained in more difficult areas is qualitatively given more weight than that obtained in "safe" environments. In other words, an hour of combat time is not equal to an hour flying traffic patterns. Is there an error in this?
I am already pursuing my Master's in Economics which should give me a much wider berth of career options. Good advice for anyone.
Your PIC time seems way too high compared to every other military pilot who has 1,400 hours total. Your PIC time should not include your co-pilot time.
As for your theory on combat time. I personally would leave it off your resume, the civilian world could care less, and we pretty much know you have that time anyway, re-read line two of what I quoted in my last post, those are purely flying skills, not necessarily the whole picture.
There is an e-book which you may wish to purchase, directed at ex-military pilots trying to transition to the civilian world in the US, produced by "Just Helicopters"---google and ye shall find.
As for your theory on combat time. I personally would leave it off your resume, the civilian world could care less, and we pretty much know you have that time anyway, re-read line two of what I quoted in my last post, those are purely flying skills, not necessarily the whole picture.
There is an e-book which you may wish to purchase, directed at ex-military pilots trying to transition to the civilian world in the US, produced by "Just Helicopters"---google and ye shall find.
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I have kept my own logbook in accordance to the FARs since shortly after flight school so my hours are according to FAA rules not what the military designated my hours. I think I have 800 or so PC on my 759. Not sure if I even have a copy of it.
I'll check out that book. Thanks again for the advice!
I'll check out that book. Thanks again for the advice!
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homebuild
It seems more and more people are going the route of homebuilt experimentals such as rotoway and mosquito for time building. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in the US any PIC time in any type (other than ultralight) can be logged. As a prospective employer how does 800 hours in a rotoway 162 look compared to that of a certified ship?
As a prospective employer how does 800 hours in a rotoway 162 look compared to that of a certified ship?
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Not so good....I would hire a 500 hour CFI over a 1,000 hour rotorway hour type. But that is just me...
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HillerBee
You make a good point about the rotorway reaching that many hours.
Gordy
Thanks for being honest, I have a feeling you're not the only one that feels that way. I've been thinking of the mosquito but $35,000 can get you quite a few hours in a certified ship. And was that a job offer for when I hit 500 hours???
You make a good point about the rotorway reaching that many hours.
Gordy
Thanks for being honest, I have a feeling you're not the only one that feels that way. I've been thinking of the mosquito but $35,000 can get you quite a few hours in a certified ship. And was that a job offer for when I hit 500 hours???
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Hourbuilding R22
I have access to an R22 in 2011 for 110£ (180$) / hour wet leas if someone is interested in doing some hourbuilding for their CPL. Contact me at [email protected] if your interested.
The Helicopter is based in Oregon US.
I'll help you convert your JAA to FAA if you need to.
Cheers Patrik
The Helicopter is based in Oregon US.
I'll help you convert your JAA to FAA if you need to.
Cheers Patrik
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Can anyone tell me if it would be worth my while visiting the various companies in the U.K. looking for work in a ground role, with the possibility of getting the odd hour under my belt every now and then?
I have 140 hours on a Canadian CPL, which entitles me to fly privately in the U.K. if I'm not mistaken-the odd ferry flight here and there would make all the difference. I'm looking to build a few hours with a view to converting to a JAA licence.
Can someone on this side on the pond advise me on whether it's worth my while taking a gamble? (I know things are really tight at the moment so I don't need any smart Alec answers, thanks.) Have any fellow PPruners taken this route and care to share their experiences?
One of the other options I was thinking of was getting an airplane PPL and buying a block of cheap hours to get me up to 250 hours so I can take my multi-IR on heli's. Is the cross-logging of hours allowed, or must they all be on helicopters?
I have 140 hours on a Canadian CPL, which entitles me to fly privately in the U.K. if I'm not mistaken-the odd ferry flight here and there would make all the difference. I'm looking to build a few hours with a view to converting to a JAA licence.
Can someone on this side on the pond advise me on whether it's worth my while taking a gamble? (I know things are really tight at the moment so I don't need any smart Alec answers, thanks.) Have any fellow PPruners taken this route and care to share their experiences?
One of the other options I was thinking of was getting an airplane PPL and buying a block of cheap hours to get me up to 250 hours so I can take my multi-IR on heli's. Is the cross-logging of hours allowed, or must they all be on helicopters?
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Hourbuilding
My boyfriend has just passed his PPL (h) in an R22 and also done his type conversion for an R44.
He is currently trying to do some hourbuilding before he starts his CPL(h).
The problem is we live in North Norfolk, and the nearest training schools to us are Northampton, Peterborough, Essex etc (Sterling Norwich closed and don't fly Robinsons), so a long distance to travel.
Does anyone have an R22 or R44 which they would sell some hours for?
What is the best option for him to get his hours up?
Advice much needed.
Many thanks
He is currently trying to do some hourbuilding before he starts his CPL(h).
The problem is we live in North Norfolk, and the nearest training schools to us are Northampton, Peterborough, Essex etc (Sterling Norwich closed and don't fly Robinsons), so a long distance to travel.
Does anyone have an R22 or R44 which they would sell some hours for?
What is the best option for him to get his hours up?
Advice much needed.
Many thanks
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Still a long trip but saw this on ebay, any good to you?
Robinson R44 HELICOPTER Shared Ownership & Zero Equity on eBay (end time 03-Apr-11 09:14:32 BST)
No associations with me, I just like dreaming about helicopters I can't afford......... yet
Robinson R44 HELICOPTER Shared Ownership & Zero Equity on eBay (end time 03-Apr-11 09:14:32 BST)
No associations with me, I just like dreaming about helicopters I can't afford......... yet
Hovering AND talking
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kjgkgj, there is also Aeromega at Cambridge; nearer than Sywell or Essex.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls