Police helicopter wasting public funds
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police helicopter wasting public funds
i have been flying since 1987 been landing helicopters on
my land since 92 other pilots use the site as well ,the west yorkshire police pilots must find it amusing and film me landing and other pilolts and send the video to the CAA for breaking rule 5, they now have sent video footage of the helicopter on my land
OR are we this is a grey area and the meaning of the rule 5 artical can change to suit the CAA they are many heli pads around the UK that are not suitable, the site on my land is always clear in and out and put no one in danger at any time
they now have sent video footage of the helicopter parked on my land the CAA rang me to ask about this and told them yes it was there WHO ARE THE BABYS HERE THIS IS CHILDISH MY 7 YEAR OLD HAS MORE BRAINS THAN THE WEST YORKSHIRE POLICE HELICOPTER PILOTS
WAISTING PUBLIC FUNDS dose this remind all of you when you was at school i am going to tell on you, for what nothing
i am just a heli pilot getting on with my life buy for now
Graham from halton moor leeds
my land since 92 other pilots use the site as well ,the west yorkshire police pilots must find it amusing and film me landing and other pilolts and send the video to the CAA for breaking rule 5, they now have sent video footage of the helicopter on my land
OR are we this is a grey area and the meaning of the rule 5 artical can change to suit the CAA they are many heli pads around the UK that are not suitable, the site on my land is always clear in and out and put no one in danger at any time
they now have sent video footage of the helicopter parked on my land the CAA rang me to ask about this and told them yes it was there WHO ARE THE BABYS HERE THIS IS CHILDISH MY 7 YEAR OLD HAS MORE BRAINS THAN THE WEST YORKSHIRE POLICE HELICOPTER PILOTS
WAISTING PUBLIC FUNDS dose this remind all of you when you was at school i am going to tell on you, for what nothing
i am just a heli pilot getting on with my life buy for now
Graham from halton moor leeds
It doesn't matter how long you've been doing something, it doesn't make it legal or safe! If you're not breaking any rules or regulations you have nothing to fear 
. The force helicopter is just reporting what it sees. Continue to fly safely and within the rules and nothing will happen.
If someone committed a crime against you or your property wouldn't you expect your local police to use all their assets available to resolve the problem (including the helicopter?), seems you can't have it both ways:uhoh
. The force helicopter is just reporting what it sees. Continue to fly safely and within the rules and nothing will happen.If someone committed a crime against you or your property wouldn't you expect your local police to use all their assets available to resolve the problem (including the helicopter?), seems you can't have it both ways:uhoh
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Why should the police involve themselves with a civil matter for the CAA. I suspect that their "pilot" wants to play god and rat on anyone else who owns a rotary and not be a taxi driver for the boys in blue.
Check out invasion of privacy & data acts. Chief Constables wife using facility for shopping etc.
Check out invasion of privacy & data acts. Chief Constables wife using facility for shopping etc.
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I'm very sorry to read about the difficulties you've been experiencing.
It's a harsh fact of life that there are always petty-minded people about who get pleasure trying to cause trouble for others. I think the aviation world is a generally better than the average because we're a small community and pilots usually try to help each other, but that doesn't mean we don't have our share of trouble-makers.
The green-eyed monster often plays a part - you can afford a helicopter of your own, and they can't, so they try to make trouble for you.
It's not clear whether you know for sure, or are guessing, that the police have reported you. And, even if they have, what part the pilot played in it all.
Perhaps you've suffered from some envious policeman with a chip about people with more money than him? Policemen don't get paid the sort of money to afford a helicopter so maybe the pilot was told to fly over your house so the cop could make a video recording?
It's probably difficult, but try to look on the bright side - there must be very little crime in your area if the police are able to spend time and resources on this sort of thing.
Either way, it would be wrong and very unfair to judge all police pilots by this one incident, or by RotorPig's post.
RotorPig obviously thinks it's funny judging by the he put in his post but remember, the forum's anonymous so he may not be a police pilot at all. He may just be trying to damage the image of police pilots with that post.
I'm afraid somebody obviously has a grudge against you as we saw from Skywolf's posts yesterday (now deleted). Perhaps it's the same person, or maybe they're friends.
Watch your back, take proper advice, and try not to let the b*ggers get you down.
Let us know how you get on - and Good Luck.
Heliport
(Edit)
If you find out who reported you, it would probably be a help to other pilots in your area to know so they are aware of the risk. But please don't post any names without clearing it with me by e-mail first.
H.
I'm very sorry to read about the difficulties you've been experiencing.
It's a harsh fact of life that there are always petty-minded people about who get pleasure trying to cause trouble for others. I think the aviation world is a generally better than the average because we're a small community and pilots usually try to help each other, but that doesn't mean we don't have our share of trouble-makers.
The green-eyed monster often plays a part - you can afford a helicopter of your own, and they can't, so they try to make trouble for you.
It's not clear whether you know for sure, or are guessing, that the police have reported you. And, even if they have, what part the pilot played in it all.
Perhaps you've suffered from some envious policeman with a chip about people with more money than him? Policemen don't get paid the sort of money to afford a helicopter so maybe the pilot was told to fly over your house so the cop could make a video recording?
It's probably difficult, but try to look on the bright side - there must be very little crime in your area if the police are able to spend time and resources on this sort of thing.
Either way, it would be wrong and very unfair to judge all police pilots by this one incident, or by RotorPig's post.
RotorPig obviously thinks it's funny judging by the
he put in his post but remember, the forum's anonymous so he may not be a police pilot at all. He may just be trying to damage the image of police pilots with that post.I'm afraid somebody obviously has a grudge against you as we saw from Skywolf's posts yesterday (now deleted). Perhaps it's the same person, or maybe they're friends.
Watch your back, take proper advice, and try not to let the b*ggers get you down.
Let us know how you get on - and Good Luck.
Heliport
(Edit)
If you find out who reported you, it would probably be a help to other pilots in your area to know so they are aware of the risk. But please don't post any names without clearing it with me by e-mail first.
H.
Last edited by Heliport; 12th Sep 2003 at 20:52.
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Rotorpig,
Lancashire Police helicopter was used to photograph my house and all the land around it , when they tried unsuccessfully to nail me with serious charges for getting a bunch of drunken tossers of my land having just failed to set fire to my garage with £80ks worth of cars in there( is that not Arson?), I was arrested and prosecuted, the tossers(Arsonists) were witnesses for the Crown, but thankfully the Jury saw through the situation, to me I can see no justification in the use of the Police Helicopter for that sort of work! Despite the Lancs Heli crews being a rather nice bunch, it is how their bosse's dictate their workload rather than the crews themselves
Rather like TCs boss in north Wale's he must be on the verge of some piriac crusade against all and every civillian motorist and biker who enters into or drives in N Wales, his own daughter has been pulled for speeding and yet he is still chasing and persuing weekend genuine bikers and now Older motorists, probably very shortly he will start a campaign against drivers of Red cars, or could it be cars with big tyres, whatever I bet Billy Burglar is having a field day in North Wales!!
Lancashire Police helicopter was used to photograph my house and all the land around it , when they tried unsuccessfully to nail me with serious charges for getting a bunch of drunken tossers of my land having just failed to set fire to my garage with £80ks worth of cars in there( is that not Arson?), I was arrested and prosecuted, the tossers(Arsonists) were witnesses for the Crown, but thankfully the Jury saw through the situation, to me I can see no justification in the use of the Police Helicopter for that sort of work! Despite the Lancs Heli crews being a rather nice bunch, it is how their bosse's dictate their workload rather than the crews themselves
Rather like TCs boss in north Wale's he must be on the verge of some piriac crusade against all and every civillian motorist and biker who enters into or drives in N Wales, his own daughter has been pulled for speeding and yet he is still chasing and persuing weekend genuine bikers and now Older motorists, probably very shortly he will start a campaign against drivers of Red cars, or could it be cars with big tyres, whatever I bet Billy Burglar is having a field day in North Wales!!
Goodness me, handbags at dawn or what? I have no close knowledge of West Yorks ASU policy or of this case, [though the prose style of MD600 and sbiggee do seem remarkably similar?] but let me offer my view.
Our ASU takes photos all the time; contingency planning, accident investigation and frequently for prosecution cases. Pretty much without exception the requests for the photos/video come from an agency external to the ASU and they have to go through various levels of authorisation and approval depending on the subject.
We obviously note where someone may have a private landing site; I'm sure you'd want the police crew in your area to know when to be alert to someone rotors running in a back garden about to lift? Only once in 14 years have I been tasked to take photos for a case involving aviation legislation and that was at the CAA's request.
Basically what I'm offering is an answer to a point that crops up maybe every 6 months on this forum; police ASUs are extremely unlikely to instigate a prosecution against another pilot unless what's been done is absolutely outrageous; to be honest it causes more problems than it solves, and the quiet phone call should be the preferred option in wherever possible. If, however, we perform the role of, er, Air "Support" Unit then we can be tasked to support another part of the force whether we like it, agree with it or aren't even remotely a**ed one way or the other by providing a service to meet their request.
This isn't being slopey-shouldered, just following orders, but to suggest that someone is conducting some sort of malicious harrassment without the other side being put is really a bit much.
Our ASU takes photos all the time; contingency planning, accident investigation and frequently for prosecution cases. Pretty much without exception the requests for the photos/video come from an agency external to the ASU and they have to go through various levels of authorisation and approval depending on the subject.
We obviously note where someone may have a private landing site; I'm sure you'd want the police crew in your area to know when to be alert to someone rotors running in a back garden about to lift? Only once in 14 years have I been tasked to take photos for a case involving aviation legislation and that was at the CAA's request.
Basically what I'm offering is an answer to a point that crops up maybe every 6 months on this forum; police ASUs are extremely unlikely to instigate a prosecution against another pilot unless what's been done is absolutely outrageous; to be honest it causes more problems than it solves, and the quiet phone call should be the preferred option in wherever possible. If, however, we perform the role of, er, Air "Support" Unit then we can be tasked to support another part of the force whether we like it, agree with it or aren't even remotely a**ed one way or the other by providing a service to meet their request.
This isn't being slopey-shouldered, just following orders, but to suggest that someone is conducting some sort of malicious harrassment without the other side being put is really a bit much.
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Thanks for posting Droopy.
RotorPig's total lack of sympathy with sbiggee and "Continue to fly safely and within the rules and nothing will happen" comment seems more like traffic cop mentality than pilots' thinking.
I have no idea if he's a police pilot, policeman or neither. My only concern was that neither sbiggee nor anyone else should think his post was typical of police pilots' attitude to fellow aviators.
As a Mod, I very rarely reveal my own opinion in discussions, but I allow myself the luxury now and again. Having done so, I'll now go back to the Mod's bench!
Heliport
RotorPig's total lack of sympathy with sbiggee and "Continue to fly safely and within the rules and nothing will happen" comment seems more like traffic cop mentality than pilots' thinking.
I have no idea if he's a police pilot, policeman or neither. My only concern was that neither sbiggee nor anyone else should think his post was typical of police pilots' attitude to fellow aviators.
As a Mod, I very rarely reveal my own opinion in discussions, but I allow myself the luxury now and again. Having done so, I'll now go back to the Mod's bench!
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 12th Sep 2003 at 23:42.
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hi many thanks for your replys on this matter A few thinks have come about and not always very good with words and explaning things
But all my problems started when i bought a turbine helicopter
not the expencive type its an alouette 11 shes and old girl but in very good condition we have been filmed 3 times now and the CAA has the footage the last one was in the past 4 weeks on the helipad i received call from CAA telling me that west yorkshire helicopter support unit had sent the video in again
{public funds}.
i am not saying all helicopter police pilots are the same
the best man who flew the west yorkshire poilce helicopter was a very good friend of mine and a lot of people will remember him
his name was DICK MESTON what a good man i will never forget him TOP PILOT.
Now the man who has a problem with me flys for west yorkshire police i have never met him but I have lots of proof for slander for spreading rummers about me.
Would like to post photo of my site flying in and out if this is possible and then people can say yes good or bad.
Any way gone on to much Graham Leeds.
Graham
I've deleted a few sentences from your post. I know it's tempting, but just because someone's saying bad things about you doesn't mean it's right (or a good idea) to do the same - at least not here. Describing him so people will know who he is still counts as 'identifying' someone, even though you didn't post his name.
I can understand why you're angry if you've been operating there for 11 years without incident but you may end up with a fight to keep operating there so play it carefully and cleverly.
It's up to you if you post a picture and ask opinions but I wouldn't if I were you. Prepare yourself confidentially with a few trusted people who're in a position to give you an informed opinion. A 'trial run' on a public site where your enemies may also be reading what's said and pick up ideas to use against you isn't a clever way to go about it.
Heliport
But all my problems started when i bought a turbine helicopter
not the expencive type its an alouette 11 shes and old girl but in very good condition we have been filmed 3 times now and the CAA has the footage the last one was in the past 4 weeks on the helipad i received call from CAA telling me that west yorkshire helicopter support unit had sent the video in again
{public funds}.
i am not saying all helicopter police pilots are the same
the best man who flew the west yorkshire poilce helicopter was a very good friend of mine and a lot of people will remember him
his name was DICK MESTON what a good man i will never forget him TOP PILOT.
Now the man who has a problem with me flys for west yorkshire police i have never met him but I have lots of proof for slander for spreading rummers about me.
Would like to post photo of my site flying in and out if this is possible and then people can say yes good or bad.
Any way gone on to much Graham Leeds.
Graham
I've deleted a few sentences from your post. I know it's tempting, but just because someone's saying bad things about you doesn't mean it's right (or a good idea) to do the same - at least not here. Describing him so people will know who he is still counts as 'identifying' someone, even though you didn't post his name.
I can understand why you're angry if you've been operating there for 11 years without incident but you may end up with a fight to keep operating there so play it carefully and cleverly.
It's up to you if you post a picture and ask opinions but I wouldn't if I were you. Prepare yourself confidentially with a few trusted people who're in a position to give you an informed opinion. A 'trial run' on a public site where your enemies may also be reading what's said and pick up ideas to use against you isn't a clever way to go about it.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 13th Sep 2003 at 00:35.
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As one of those "poorly paid police officers who can't afford a helicopter of his own" I feel deeply offended by the implication by Heliport that this makes me into a mean and petty minded individual.
I would have thought that, as a moderator, heliport would have been a little more conservative in the comments made in his/her post. There is also an element of encouragement to persons flouting the regulations which, as anybody involved in aviation must agree, is likely to breed an environment in which the rules become something to be derided.
Moderators must be allowed to make comment and air their views but to immediately club all police officers working in aviation as mean minded because of the actions of one unidentified individual I find deeply insulting.
I work within an extremely professional unit where both pilots and police officers do their utmost to ensure that flight safety is never compromised and I retain the right, as I swore to do when I was attested as a police officer, to prosecute those who break the law and preserve the safety and rights of those who do not.
I would have thought that, as a moderator, heliport would have been a little more conservative in the comments made in his/her post. There is also an element of encouragement to persons flouting the regulations which, as anybody involved in aviation must agree, is likely to breed an environment in which the rules become something to be derided.
Moderators must be allowed to make comment and air their views but to immediately club all police officers working in aviation as mean minded because of the actions of one unidentified individual I find deeply insulting.
I work within an extremely professional unit where both pilots and police officers do their utmost to ensure that flight safety is never compromised and I retain the right, as I swore to do when I was attested as a police officer, to prosecute those who break the law and preserve the safety and rights of those who do not.
Oooh la la.
I sometimes wonder about certain people.
Does ANYONE seriously believe that ANY public service sector would OPENLY flaunt their capabilities for absolutely no or very trivial reasons whatsoever???
Open misuse of public service funding would most certainly be jumped on within days if not hours if it was freely exposed to their customers (the public).
It's the stuff that goes on in the background that one needs to worry about..don't you think. ??http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=102248
You can take it or leave it, but I know for a fact that there isn't a police air support unit in the country that would knowingly indulge in such petty, insignificant, ineffective, time consuming, tasking such as this........................................................ ......
unless there is more to it than meets the eye
Heliport...you should know better!
Rotorpig: don't be such a t*t.
VFR: didn't know you were a born again biker
I sometimes wonder about certain people.
Does ANYONE seriously believe that ANY public service sector would OPENLY flaunt their capabilities for absolutely no or very trivial reasons whatsoever???
Open misuse of public service funding would most certainly be jumped on within days if not hours if it was freely exposed to their customers (the public).
It's the stuff that goes on in the background that one needs to worry about..don't you think. ??http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=102248
You can take it or leave it, but I know for a fact that there isn't a police air support unit in the country that would knowingly indulge in such petty, insignificant, ineffective, time consuming, tasking such as this........................................................ ......
unless there is more to it than meets the eye
Heliport...you should know better!
Rotorpig: don't be such a t*t.
VFR: didn't know you were a born again biker
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 13th Sep 2003 at 03:12.
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Well said Truncheon Meat. As Rotopig said, if no rules have been broken then sbiggee has nothing to fear. However, I wonder where Heliport would be if Rule 5 was being contravened and it all went pear shaped one day??
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truncheon meat
Interesting that you've put something on quotation marks which I didn't say. Isn't that called a 'verbal' in your line of work?
I didn't say, nor do I think, that police officers are "poorly paid". If not being able to afford a helicopter of our own meant "poorly paid", there'd be an awful lot of us in that club.
I don't see how saying "some envious policeman with a chip etc" implies that all policemen have a chip. I don't think they all do, but I have no doubt whatsoever that some do. That's based on the attitude of some, not all, traffic cops towards people who drive expensive cars but I also realise that some traffic cops aren't influenced by such things and that others are just mean and petty-minded towards all motorists regardless of what car they're driving. ie A spread of human nature just like every other walk of life.
Usually, I am extremely "conservative" in my comments. In fact, I rarely join in discussions at all and try to hold the balance as much as I can, but I let myself go maybe a couple of times a year (sometimes less) and say what I really think. This was one of those occasions.
"an element of encouragement to persons flouting the regulations"
That puzzles me. I've not read anything which makes me think that sbigee (Graham) is flouting any regulations. Curious that you've jumped to that conclusion, but I'm just an ordinary member of the public not a police officer.
"which, as anybody involved in aviation must agree, is likely to breed an environment in which the rules become something to be derided."
If I was encouraging people to flout the regulations (which I wasn't) there'd be something in that point - but I couldn't give you you a simple 'Agree' or Disagree' answer to that proposition without further discussion.
"to immediately club all police officers working in aviation as mean minded because of the actions of one unidentified individual I find deeply insulting."
Read my post again. I said no such thing.
I have a high opinion of police pilots and have no reason to doubt you work within an extremely professional unit, but I'm not sure I understand the next part. You say "..... where both pilots and police officers do their utmost to ensure that flight safety is never compromised".
If you're referring to the ASU helicopter, I understand. If you're referring to other people's flying, I don't. Are you saying that civilian pilots of police helicopters have a 'police' role? ie Policing other pilots? As civilian empoyees? Or that non-pilot Observers feel qualified to police pilots?
I understand, and enthusiastically support, the attitude Droopy described. If I saw another pilot doing something "absolutely outrageous" I might be tempted to report them myself. I susepct many pilots would react the same way, regardless of whether they were plice ASU pilots. It would have to be absolutely outrageous before I'd report another pilot but I wouldn't rule out doing so.
"I retain the right, as I swore to do when I was attested as a police officer, to prosecute those who break the law and preserve the safety and rights of those who do not."
That all sound very grand, but it's just the sort of thing traffic wardens say when they issue tickets a few minutes after the time has run out, and traffic officers say when they book people going fractionally over the speed limit. (NB: I'm referring to the mean and petty-minded types, not all traffic wardens and not all traffic policemen.) Sorry to keep using traffic as examples but, like most people, my only risk of finding myself on the wrong side of the police is as a driver.
Mind you, if what you say is right, perhaps I'd better be even more careful when I fly. After all, you retain the right to prosecute those who break the law and you don't sound like someone who's likely to be what I would regard as 'reasonable' and open to the argument that it was 'technical' or 'very minor'.
I still hope (and believe) the approach Droopy describes is the better one. I'd hate to think airborne police officers were flying around the air like traffic cops trying to catch someone breaking an aviation regulation.
We agree about one thing. It's wrong to make sweeping generalisations about a group based on one individual's actions. But, if you read it again, you'll see that's what I said when I responded to sbiggee's post.
Please don't think I'm being rude if I don't take any further part in the discussion. I've had my 'say what I really think' moment and, even more important, I'm off on my hols early tomorrow morning and others will be moderating the forum for a couple of weeks. In fact, it's a bit frustrating - potential for a good discssion here!
Got to go - haven't packed yet and I don't want to be caught speeding on the way to the airport!
Heliport
(Edit)
TC
Please don't think I'm anti-ASU's. Nothing could be further from the truth, as you know.
It seems very odd that sbiggee's been operating from his land for 11 years and now has the local ASU taking videos and sending them to the CAA. If they've been tasked to do so, his criticism of the ASU is misplaced. I've never heard of ASU's behaving in this way so, even if he's right that a particular person has some personal axe to grind against him, I still don't think that's a basis for tarring all ASU's with the same brush - which is the point I made originally.
Interesting that you've put something on quotation marks which I didn't say. Isn't that called a 'verbal' in your line of work?
I didn't say, nor do I think, that police officers are "poorly paid". If not being able to afford a helicopter of our own meant "poorly paid", there'd be an awful lot of us in that club.
I don't see how saying "some envious policeman with a chip etc" implies that all policemen have a chip. I don't think they all do, but I have no doubt whatsoever that some do. That's based on the attitude of some, not all, traffic cops towards people who drive expensive cars but I also realise that some traffic cops aren't influenced by such things and that others are just mean and petty-minded towards all motorists regardless of what car they're driving. ie A spread of human nature just like every other walk of life.
Usually, I am extremely "conservative" in my comments. In fact, I rarely join in discussions at all and try to hold the balance as much as I can, but I let myself go maybe a couple of times a year (sometimes less) and say what I really think. This was one of those occasions.
"an element of encouragement to persons flouting the regulations"
That puzzles me. I've not read anything which makes me think that sbigee (Graham) is flouting any regulations. Curious that you've jumped to that conclusion, but I'm just an ordinary member of the public not a police officer.
"which, as anybody involved in aviation must agree, is likely to breed an environment in which the rules become something to be derided."
If I was encouraging people to flout the regulations (which I wasn't) there'd be something in that point - but I couldn't give you you a simple 'Agree' or Disagree' answer to that proposition without further discussion.
"to immediately club all police officers working in aviation as mean minded because of the actions of one unidentified individual I find deeply insulting."
Read my post again. I said no such thing.
I have a high opinion of police pilots and have no reason to doubt you work within an extremely professional unit, but I'm not sure I understand the next part. You say "..... where both pilots and police officers do their utmost to ensure that flight safety is never compromised".
If you're referring to the ASU helicopter, I understand. If you're referring to other people's flying, I don't. Are you saying that civilian pilots of police helicopters have a 'police' role? ie Policing other pilots? As civilian empoyees? Or that non-pilot Observers feel qualified to police pilots?
I understand, and enthusiastically support, the attitude Droopy described. If I saw another pilot doing something "absolutely outrageous" I might be tempted to report them myself. I susepct many pilots would react the same way, regardless of whether they were plice ASU pilots. It would have to be absolutely outrageous before I'd report another pilot but I wouldn't rule out doing so.
"I retain the right, as I swore to do when I was attested as a police officer, to prosecute those who break the law and preserve the safety and rights of those who do not."
That all sound very grand, but it's just the sort of thing traffic wardens say when they issue tickets a few minutes after the time has run out, and traffic officers say when they book people going fractionally over the speed limit. (NB: I'm referring to the mean and petty-minded types, not all traffic wardens and not all traffic policemen.) Sorry to keep using traffic as examples but, like most people, my only risk of finding myself on the wrong side of the police is as a driver.
Mind you, if what you say is right, perhaps I'd better be even more careful when I fly. After all, you retain the right to prosecute those who break the law and you don't sound like someone who's likely to be what I would regard as 'reasonable' and open to the argument that it was 'technical' or 'very minor'.
I still hope (and believe) the approach Droopy describes is the better one. I'd hate to think airborne police officers were flying around the air like traffic cops trying to catch someone breaking an aviation regulation.
We agree about one thing. It's wrong to make sweeping generalisations about a group based on one individual's actions. But, if you read it again, you'll see that's what I said when I responded to sbiggee's post.
Please don't think I'm being rude if I don't take any further part in the discussion. I've had my 'say what I really think' moment and, even more important, I'm off on my hols early tomorrow morning and others will be moderating the forum for a couple of weeks. In fact, it's a bit frustrating - potential for a good discssion here!
Got to go - haven't packed yet and I don't want to be caught speeding on the way to the airport!
Heliport
(Edit)
TC
Please don't think I'm anti-ASU's. Nothing could be further from the truth, as you know.
It seems very odd that sbiggee's been operating from his land for 11 years and now has the local ASU taking videos and sending them to the CAA. If they've been tasked to do so, his criticism of the ASU is misplaced. I've never heard of ASU's behaving in this way so, even if he's right that a particular person has some personal axe to grind against him, I still don't think that's a basis for tarring all ASU's with the same brush - which is the point I made originally.
Last edited by Heliport; 13th Sep 2003 at 07:24.
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Like so many things, it all depends on the facts, and the posts don't really give enough information to let anyone decide. Long on opinion and subjective comment and short on evidence.
Certainly, in my experience it would be unusual to deploy a police aircraft for a purpose such as was described by sbiggee. Units have deployment criteria taking into account the costs of flying. Usually, there is a crew of 1 pilot and 2 observers who are usually police officers. One of the observers is responsible for deciding what (police) task is done. The pilot takes them there. The observers work the cameras and other stuff. This means that at least 3 people need to "conspire" to carry out a task. All flights and "tasks" are logged. The pilot does not decide where he goes or what the aircraft is used for. His only veto is on grounds of flight safety or legality (i.e. whether the flight can be completed in accordance with aviation legislation).
If someone considers particular police activity is worthy of it, they should make a complaint. If, as is suggested, there is some sort of bizarre personal vendetta, then it would not be too difficult to reveal this. The police are (usually) meticulous in investigating their own ............
But, if someone has broken a regulation/legal rule and the evidence is there to prove it, you can't really expect the police to ignore it. Their role as law enforcers extends to the ANO - they are specifically given powers under these Orders akin to those given to CAA officers. They have powers of arrest in connection with certain offences, like endangering aircraft, they can require to inspect aviation documents...........
It is also not the case that the Aviation Rules like Rule 5 are civil law, they are part of the criminal law.
Heliport does raise an interesting question about individual pilots "going native". I have come across a very small number of police pilots who, because they fly for the police, do get a bit over-zealous in aviation matters. That view of such behaviour is my personal opinion, and I do not operate in that way myself. I have also come across pilots with such attitudes working for commercial operators or flying schools.
However, it is the right of every citizen to draw attention to apparent law-breaking to those who are employed to enforce the law, and be prepared to give evidence (if he has any). In other circumstances, it would even be called being a good citizen!
Certainly, in my experience it would be unusual to deploy a police aircraft for a purpose such as was described by sbiggee. Units have deployment criteria taking into account the costs of flying. Usually, there is a crew of 1 pilot and 2 observers who are usually police officers. One of the observers is responsible for deciding what (police) task is done. The pilot takes them there. The observers work the cameras and other stuff. This means that at least 3 people need to "conspire" to carry out a task. All flights and "tasks" are logged. The pilot does not decide where he goes or what the aircraft is used for. His only veto is on grounds of flight safety or legality (i.e. whether the flight can be completed in accordance with aviation legislation).
If someone considers particular police activity is worthy of it, they should make a complaint. If, as is suggested, there is some sort of bizarre personal vendetta, then it would not be too difficult to reveal this. The police are (usually) meticulous in investigating their own ............
But, if someone has broken a regulation/legal rule and the evidence is there to prove it, you can't really expect the police to ignore it. Their role as law enforcers extends to the ANO - they are specifically given powers under these Orders akin to those given to CAA officers. They have powers of arrest in connection with certain offences, like endangering aircraft, they can require to inspect aviation documents...........
It is also not the case that the Aviation Rules like Rule 5 are civil law, they are part of the criminal law.
Heliport does raise an interesting question about individual pilots "going native". I have come across a very small number of police pilots who, because they fly for the police, do get a bit over-zealous in aviation matters. That view of such behaviour is my personal opinion, and I do not operate in that way myself. I have also come across pilots with such attitudes working for commercial operators or flying schools.
However, it is the right of every citizen to draw attention to apparent law-breaking to those who are employed to enforce the law, and be prepared to give evidence (if he has any). In other circumstances, it would even be called being a good citizen!
Last edited by Helinut; 13th Sep 2003 at 04:25.
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Oh, Heliport. Now I am being called the sort of copper who has no function of independent or reasonable thought. I like to think of myself as one of those coppers who has fought over the years to retain the right to use my discretion if an offence deserves it.
The Air navigation Order is actually law and, yes, if somebody breaches that order then I will use my discretion as to whether I should lead toward a prosecution.
Wherever you are going on your holiday, please have a good one, don't be frightened by foreign policemen if you go abroad!
By the use of words such as "verbals" I gather you are an avid fan of The Bill. If you would like me to, I'll video it for you.
As for telling you which ASU I work for, no, I shall not. I also retain my right to protect my anonymity and, police aviation being the tightly knit world it is, to name the unit for which I work would be tantamount to giving away my identity. I find it a little strange to be asked that question by a moderator, especially one who has such sparse information on his own profile.
I have no personal grudge against you or any other contributor to this thread but I feel that there are some within the thread who are using it to have a dig at police officers. My opinion only. If others prescribe to that opinion, which some obviously do from the replies so far, then I feel just ever so slightly vindicated.
The Air navigation Order is actually law and, yes, if somebody breaches that order then I will use my discretion as to whether I should lead toward a prosecution.
Wherever you are going on your holiday, please have a good one, don't be frightened by foreign policemen if you go abroad!
By the use of words such as "verbals" I gather you are an avid fan of The Bill. If you would like me to, I'll video it for you.
As for telling you which ASU I work for, no, I shall not. I also retain my right to protect my anonymity and, police aviation being the tightly knit world it is, to name the unit for which I work would be tantamount to giving away my identity. I find it a little strange to be asked that question by a moderator, especially one who has such sparse information on his own profile.
I have no personal grudge against you or any other contributor to this thread but I feel that there are some within the thread who are using it to have a dig at police officers. My opinion only. If others prescribe to that opinion, which some obviously do from the replies so far, then I feel just ever so slightly vindicated.
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If there was as much effort put into stopping drunk driving as there is trying to restrict the activities of general aviation I think everyone would be a lot safer.
No one can ever say (and then go home and sleep that night) that the police hovering over somebody's PRIVATE LAND in their EC135 with very charred and hot £50 notes flying out the exhausts taking pictures of a helipad (unless of course it was beside a school or hospital) is a good use of resources or anything other and an another example of a bunch of a*s holes with chips on their shoulders wasting time because they frankly have nothing better to do.
I frequently get stopped in my car on the roads and subjected to questioning about where I got it even though I've broken no laws. Why? Because its a BMW and I'm a young guy, so obviously I've stolen it right? No, the police just have a problem with me having it. Sibiggee, keep your helipad, and if anyone has a problem with it, tell them to come and take it from you by force, they'll go quiet after that.
No one can ever say (and then go home and sleep that night) that the police hovering over somebody's PRIVATE LAND in their EC135 with very charred and hot £50 notes flying out the exhausts taking pictures of a helipad (unless of course it was beside a school or hospital) is a good use of resources or anything other and an another example of a bunch of a*s holes with chips on their shoulders wasting time because they frankly have nothing better to do.
I frequently get stopped in my car on the roads and subjected to questioning about where I got it even though I've broken no laws. Why? Because its a BMW and I'm a young guy, so obviously I've stolen it right? No, the police just have a problem with me having it. Sibiggee, keep your helipad, and if anyone has a problem with it, tell them to come and take it from you by force, they'll go quiet after that.
"I retain the right, as I swore to do when I was attested as a police officer, to prosecute those who break the law and preserve the safety and rights of those who do not."
Now, that may sound to some like the argument used by a petty minded Traffic Warden. However, it sounds to me (neither a police officer nor a police pilot) like someone who takes their duties and responsibilities seriously.
I don't want to get involved in the main discussion as I have no knowledge of any of the circumstances - although that doesn't seem to stop others - but for a moderator to deride a poster on this board because they have a professional attitude is despicable.
As for Capt. Eagle - schools and hospitals? I really don't follow your logic, are those the only places a police helicopter may wish to land? Is crime not committed away from schools and hospitals? And as for your whining about being stopped in your car then I'm glad that you wouldn't mind if the police made no enquiries if it were stolen as it will save the force involved money which, I believe, was the intention of this thread.
Now, that may sound to some like the argument used by a petty minded Traffic Warden. However, it sounds to me (neither a police officer nor a police pilot) like someone who takes their duties and responsibilities seriously.
I don't want to get involved in the main discussion as I have no knowledge of any of the circumstances - although that doesn't seem to stop others - but for a moderator to deride a poster on this board because they have a professional attitude is despicable.
As for Capt. Eagle - schools and hospitals? I really don't follow your logic, are those the only places a police helicopter may wish to land? Is crime not committed away from schools and hospitals? And as for your whining about being stopped in your car then I'm glad that you wouldn't mind if the police made no enquiries if it were stolen as it will save the force involved money which, I believe, was the intention of this thread.
Captain Beagle:
There you go again blowing hot air from that exhaust pipe of yours.
Your not listening are you:
You aren't in possession of the facts in this story are you?
You are basing your opinions on your personal experience of being 'harassed by the police', aren't you?
You're jumping the gun aren't you?
I wonder why they stop you in your Beemer, beagle?
JAFO said it all
There you go again blowing hot air from that exhaust pipe of yours.
Your not listening are you:
You aren't in possession of the facts in this story are you?
You are basing your opinions on your personal experience of being 'harassed by the police', aren't you?
You're jumping the gun aren't you?
I wonder why they stop you in your Beemer, beagle?
JAFO said it all
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From time to time, I read people on these forums saying "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear."
The curious thing is that in all the years I've been advising pilots/operators under investigation, or representing them in court, I've never once heard one of them say: "I've done nothing wrong so I've got nothing to fear."
Could it be they were all worried because they'd all done something wrong? I suppose that's possible.
Or could it be it's one of those things which is very easy to say when you're not the one at the wrong end of a CAA investigation or prosecution - and not being put to the time and expense of dealing with it?
Nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong? What utter rubbish. People worry something will go wrong and they'll be convicted. And that's before time and expense are taken into account. If the investigation comes to nothing, the person who's been under investigation won't have any of the personal or legal cost of dealing with it reimbursed. If he's prosecuted and acquitted he'll usually get something back, but never everything it's cost.
truncheon meat
'vindicated'?
This is a discussion forum where we exchange views and often have very interesting discussions. When we join a discussion, some people share our views and some don't. Being vindicated doesn't come into it.
I was relieved to see you mention the sensible use of discretion in your second post; there was no hint of it in your first and it certainly isn't something I'd assume. Most police officers seem to use discretion when dealing with minor/trivial offences, but by no means all. Just in case you think I only defend or am being anti-police , I've prosecuted more murderers and others who've been given Life sentences for other serious offences than I can remember.
You seem rather sensitive to people making what you regard as unjustified comments about certain types of police officers. Count yourself lucky you're not a lawyer. We constantly have people condemning us as an entire group, not just particular types of lawyers.
As a new member, perhaps you don't realise Moderators are always anonymous so you won't find many, if any, clues under Mods' profiles. You might want to remove 'Guildford' from your profile if you don't want people to know your force.
Helinut
Interesting post, and I agree with much of what you say, but I'm interested in one point. I'd always assumed the position was as described by Droopy (police ASUs are extremely unlikely to instigate a prosecution against another pilot unless what's been done is absolutely outrageous) but you say "if someone has broken a regulation/legal rule and the evidence is there to prove it, you can't really expect the police to ignore it" which seems to be nearer the Rotorpig/Truncheon line.
Should we think of police helicopters when we're flying in the same way we think of police cars when we're driving?
JAFO
If a police officer reported every offence or suspected offence he encountered, however trivial, he'd be entirely within his rights. We obviously hold very different views about whether that means he has a "professional attitude."
What? Me a lawyer saying that! Despicable!
The curious thing is that in all the years I've been advising pilots/operators under investigation, or representing them in court, I've never once heard one of them say: "I've done nothing wrong so I've got nothing to fear."
Could it be they were all worried because they'd all done something wrong? I suppose that's possible.
Or could it be it's one of those things which is very easy to say when you're not the one at the wrong end of a CAA investigation or prosecution - and not being put to the time and expense of dealing with it?
Nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong? What utter rubbish. People worry something will go wrong and they'll be convicted. And that's before time and expense are taken into account. If the investigation comes to nothing, the person who's been under investigation won't have any of the personal or legal cost of dealing with it reimbursed. If he's prosecuted and acquitted he'll usually get something back, but never everything it's cost.
truncheon meat
'vindicated'?
This is a discussion forum where we exchange views and often have very interesting discussions. When we join a discussion, some people share our views and some don't. Being vindicated doesn't come into it. I was relieved to see you mention the sensible use of discretion in your second post; there was no hint of it in your first and it certainly isn't something I'd assume. Most police officers seem to use discretion when dealing with minor/trivial offences, but by no means all. Just in case you think I only defend or am being anti-police , I've prosecuted more murderers and others who've been given Life sentences for other serious offences than I can remember.
You seem rather sensitive to people making what you regard as unjustified comments about certain types of police officers. Count yourself lucky you're not a lawyer. We constantly have people condemning us as an entire group, not just particular types of lawyers.
As a new member, perhaps you don't realise Moderators are always anonymous so you won't find many, if any, clues under Mods' profiles. You might want to remove 'Guildford' from your profile if you don't want people to know your force.
Helinut
Interesting post, and I agree with much of what you say, but I'm interested in one point. I'd always assumed the position was as described by Droopy (police ASUs are extremely unlikely to instigate a prosecution against another pilot unless what's been done is absolutely outrageous) but you say "if someone has broken a regulation/legal rule and the evidence is there to prove it, you can't really expect the police to ignore it" which seems to be nearer the Rotorpig/Truncheon line.
Should we think of police helicopters when we're flying in the same way we think of police cars when we're driving?
JAFO
If a police officer reported every offence or suspected offence he encountered, however trivial, he'd be entirely within his rights. We obviously hold very different views about whether that means he has a "professional attitude."
What? Me a lawyer saying that! Despicable!
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 13th Sep 2003 at 12:23.
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TC, I used to be, but lost a couple of good guys along the way, so cowhide now hung up.
FL, Normally I would agree with your comments about nothing to fear, but when a mans castle ( House) or (Drum for those who do watch the BILL) is invaded by Glock bearing flakjacketed size 12's with wifey and three children fast asleep, to be arrested and carted off in just me brief's, when all you have done is to chase off your property a load of drunken tossers who had set fire to said property, and then gone back to bed, and it costs you £30k to stand your ground, then I do feel following that sort of experience, dished out by my local flatfoots, that we do have a little cause for concern and worry, there is a definate attitude similar to the Americans in Iraq, Shoot first and ask after. even after that sort of treatment I am NOT anti Police, but I feel there is a lack of control in certain departments of our national Police force, with 97% being OK but the other 3% are the real problem
FL, Normally I would agree with your comments about nothing to fear, but when a mans castle ( House) or (Drum for those who do watch the BILL) is invaded by Glock bearing flakjacketed size 12's with wifey and three children fast asleep, to be arrested and carted off in just me brief's, when all you have done is to chase off your property a load of drunken tossers who had set fire to said property, and then gone back to bed, and it costs you £30k to stand your ground, then I do feel following that sort of experience, dished out by my local flatfoots, that we do have a little cause for concern and worry, there is a definate attitude similar to the Americans in Iraq, Shoot first and ask after. even after that sort of treatment I am NOT anti Police, but I feel there is a lack of control in certain departments of our national Police force, with 97% being OK but the other 3% are the real problem
Captain Eagle - the the old days of hovering over someone's landing site and taking lots of invasive photographs are long gone; these days we have a method which is technologically far superior. What we do is fly along on the way back from a task and say to each other, "Oh look there's a new helipad in that back garden, lucky chap". We then get back in the office and [this is the real breakthrough] we break open the box of felt-tip pens and mark the site on the wall map. It's cutting edge stuff I know and perhaps a bit controversial but I think it could be here to stay...