Police helicopter wasting public funds
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droopy
i might have it wrong but are you infering i am sbigee as well ,
i have not posted to this thread and i can confirm that i am not s bigee also the west yorks asu might even guess who i am and s biggee is and confirm
md600 driver[temp gazz driver]
i might have it wrong but are you infering i am sbigee as well ,
i have not posted to this thread and i can confirm that i am not s bigee also the west yorks asu might even guess who i am and s biggee is and confirm
md600 driver[temp gazz driver]
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Reading the post's over the last day or so it seems that the normal "we are superior to normal citizens attitude" is starting to come threw from the police guy's posting here.
From my limited experience dealing with the police, they will always look for an easy prosecution against a generally law abiding person rather than chase the hard core criminals who are more difficult to catch and have more experience of avoiding prosecution. Just look at the resources being used to catch speeding drivers! The traffic cops in my area are all driving new Mercedes cars with a fleet of camera vans positioned on motorway bridges to support them. When was the last time you noticed a speed trap outside a school?
My former business premises were recently burgled; the investigation officer told the new owners there was a very slim chance of catching the people responsible. He suggested improving the security system protecting the building as it had failed to work during the burglary. The system was upgraded an as a result there have been three false alarms in a two month period. Due to the false alarms the local police have now sent the owners a letter stating that they will not respond to any further alarm activations as they only have limited resources. But they have the resources to run there nice AS355...
My local police ASU is lands at the airport were my helicopter is based, they are often in the café having lunch, but never get involved in conversation with other pilots and generally keep themselves to themselves. Whenever you walk into the café they always give you that “You are Guilty of Something” Look.
Flying Lawyer’s comment “Should we think of police helicopters when we're flying in the same way we think of police cars when we're driving?” I hope not! As I am sure most of us drive badly when being followed by a police car, your mind is racing thinking what have I done wrong? Not concentrating on driving.
What happens if the police helicopter’s start to try and police the air? Will we all stop contacting the local airfield for FIS in an attempt to hide our identity from the listening Police ASU? Just in-case we have accidentally broken a rule?
From my limited experience dealing with the police, they will always look for an easy prosecution against a generally law abiding person rather than chase the hard core criminals who are more difficult to catch and have more experience of avoiding prosecution. Just look at the resources being used to catch speeding drivers! The traffic cops in my area are all driving new Mercedes cars with a fleet of camera vans positioned on motorway bridges to support them. When was the last time you noticed a speed trap outside a school?
My former business premises were recently burgled; the investigation officer told the new owners there was a very slim chance of catching the people responsible. He suggested improving the security system protecting the building as it had failed to work during the burglary. The system was upgraded an as a result there have been three false alarms in a two month period. Due to the false alarms the local police have now sent the owners a letter stating that they will not respond to any further alarm activations as they only have limited resources. But they have the resources to run there nice AS355...
My local police ASU is lands at the airport were my helicopter is based, they are often in the café having lunch, but never get involved in conversation with other pilots and generally keep themselves to themselves. Whenever you walk into the café they always give you that “You are Guilty of Something” Look.
Flying Lawyer’s comment “Should we think of police helicopters when we're flying in the same way we think of police cars when we're driving?” I hope not! As I am sure most of us drive badly when being followed by a police car, your mind is racing thinking what have I done wrong? Not concentrating on driving.
What happens if the police helicopter’s start to try and police the air? Will we all stop contacting the local airfield for FIS in an attempt to hide our identity from the listening Police ASU? Just in-case we have accidentally broken a rule?
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I have been reading this thread with increasing interest.
Police/general public conflicts always tend to get some good discussion from both sides and the biases tend to show quite quickly, although I think TC has tried to show a balanced opinion.
I am not anti police or think they are the champions of the public by the way.
If there has been a complaint about helicopters using the private landing site and the CAA want evidence, why can't they send up one or two of their own inspectors for a few days (via car) and video (or whatever they need to do) what is going on from the ground, rather than using a Police helicopter when it could be deployed elsewhere or saving some of the relevant Police authorities budget. Maybe one quick flight over to give the CAA confirmation a helicopter is being flown from there is ok but to video the site several times does seem pointless and a waste of money IMHO.
Let the CAA get whatever they need to assess the legality etc of what is going on and then make a detailed report to determine a fair and consistent decision.........................................back in the real world....................
NigD3
Police/general public conflicts always tend to get some good discussion from both sides and the biases tend to show quite quickly, although I think TC has tried to show a balanced opinion.
I am not anti police or think they are the champions of the public by the way.
If there has been a complaint about helicopters using the private landing site and the CAA want evidence, why can't they send up one or two of their own inspectors for a few days (via car) and video (or whatever they need to do) what is going on from the ground, rather than using a Police helicopter when it could be deployed elsewhere or saving some of the relevant Police authorities budget. Maybe one quick flight over to give the CAA confirmation a helicopter is being flown from there is ok but to video the site several times does seem pointless and a waste of money IMHO.
Let the CAA get whatever they need to assess the legality etc of what is going on and then make a detailed report to determine a fair and consistent decision.........................................back in the real world....................
NigD3
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Reading the post's over the last day or so it seems that the normal "we are superior to normal citizens attitude" is starting to come threw from the police guy's posting here.
you dont rountinly hear about good work done by police in the newspapers, tv or even your neighbours.
when people are constantly critisiced would they not be a little defensive, especially when they are made by people who wouldnt do the job in the fiirst place for what ever reason.
they deal with things everything in society from good, bad to evil. distressing, gorey that others wouldnt deal with. and all walks of society and are expected to please everyone,
i think overall they do a good job and maybe a little more support may get a better police service, or if you can do better well, join them and see if you can make a difference.
if not why not see how they work in other countries, we arnt that bad off with what we have got.
Flying lawyer - I wasn't suggesting that every incident and offence should be reported, merely applauding the fact that Truncheon Meat wasn't willing to turn a blind eye - "without fear or favour" is, I believe, the term used.
Mikeb - I couldn't possibly reply to your idiotic drivel without slipping into language that is not allowed on this bulletin board.
sss - well said.
Mikeb - I couldn't possibly reply to your idiotic drivel without slipping into language that is not allowed on this bulletin board.
sss - well said.
Some interesting points of view so far. It's prompted me to write this account of My most recent shift on days:
What I did:
Arrived 10 mins before shift-start time, chatted to the bored security man at the entrance, went into the office. Completed handover/takeover, checked Met and that wonderful AIS NOTAM system, did W&Balance calcs and paperwork. Had a cup of tea and bowl of cereal, went out to aircraft (oh, sorry PPRuNe Saddo#1, is that not on your list? It's just that ships are what matelots are found in over here, and we don't want to be, er, tarred with that brush do we?) to do the compressor washes and Daily Inspection. Topped up the MGB oil, helped by police observer who manipulated the Risbridger pump even though it's not in his job description.
Went back inside, made tea (it's true Pete - honest!!), finished paperwork and started OU homework. After 15 minutes, made way out to aircraft (pronto) as ground units in neighbouring city were in pursuit of car containing 5 scrotes. These had already carried out street thefts, stolen/wrecked one OAPs moped and were driving lethally out of town. Arrived overhead Scrotemobile which stopped just before it entered another built-up area. Observed bomburst and helped ground units round up and arrest 4 offenders. Was looking for 5th when WPC called up to say she'd found him hiding in boot of (stolen) ScroMo along with muchos burgled items. Headed back past base en route to the first of several fires seen that day. Glorious weather, dry ground and bored youngsters seem to have that effect... Spent 35 minutes looking for suicidal man who'd rigged up hosepipe from exhaust into car, and was now on his mobile to the Force Control Room. The lass there was not having a good morning, hearing him become less and less coherent as the engine rumbled on in the background. We didn't see him, but the units on the ground did - he'll live (probably a "cry for help", as CO usually works faster than that). You should've seen those officers sprint from garage to garage for over half an hour, with all that stab-proof clobber they have to wear.
Back to base, refuelled aircraft, waved back to pilot of Robin who must pay a fortune to keep his aircraft there, headed in to finish paperwork and restart homework. Was caught by observers as I played minesweeper instead of studying Quantum Chromodynamics - forced to make teas for remainder of shift as punishment. Brain started hurting.
Early afternoon, call came through re stolen vehicle on motorway. Launched immediately, found vehicle (which was doing well over 70 in 30MPH areas including schools) and maintained observation position while crew controlled the pursuit. Watched as the stolen vehicle graunched to a halt and the 2 occupants scarpered. Police Motorway Patrol M-class Merc arrived; observed the officer in the passenger side emerge from his vehicle and start sprinting after the driver of the abandoned car. Helpful cyclist lent his bike to policeman - observed said bobby now go pounding off after his target. Target stopped sprinting - mistake, as bobby launched himself straight off the bike and put him unmistakeably under arrest. Meanwhile, our observers had guided the M-class driver around to where the passenger of the stolen car was trying to nonchalantly stroll away from the area. Second man swiftly joined his mate in cuffs. Eight minutes 30 secs from ops room chair to 2 in custody - result! Especially as car was loaded with proceeds from 2 days worth of burglaries. Resumed patrol - nothing unusual, back to base/refuel/tea/paperwork (note priorities).
Another inconclusive trip to try and find would-be housebreakers reported hiding in a garden. Back to base refuel etc; chatted to the pilot from the air taxi firm based in the same building as us. Hosted visiting bobbies who'd come to collect evidential video (well, made them tea while the observers showed them the Motorway Bicycle Display Team video clip over and over again...). Twelve hours after starting shift, packed up homework and started handover to the night crew. Offered to make incoming pilot a cup of tea, but he's had one of mine before and - not knowing the antidote - wisely refused. Went back to the accommodation. Slept.
What I DIDN'T do :
I didn't ignore the security man, or treat him like something I'd just found on the bottom of my shoe - as some of the passengers for the Business Terminal often do. Some of them drive BMWs, you know...
I didn't ask the observers if we could go and scout out some helicopter sites so's we could give the owners a hard time; I'd be out of a job within hours if I tried.
I didn't ignore or patronise the air taxi or Robin pilots, both of whom are probably at least my equals or better at what they do.
I didn't point out yet again to my long-suffering observers that: (deep breath) people who buy expensive cars, keep them outside their empty garage, leave the keys hanging on the front door below a glass panel and then go and watch telly in a back room (exhale...) actually deserve to have some teenage sh*t come along, break glass, steal keys, get into motor and drive off. Mind you, I didn't entirely sympathise with the people who'd just seen what happens when you do that, either.
I didn't ask the bobbies if I could patrol up and down the CTZ boundary looking out for unauthorised intruders on one side or illegal low-fliers on the other. Mind you, I did mutter an oath at the **** in his Robbie who flew along at dusk, no lights, smack on the boundary at 800 feet talking to nobody - still, it's a free country...
I didn't forget to apologise to ATC after I had to ask them to say again to a call they made during the pursuit. Or to thank them for liaising with the airport of the neighbouring city during the earlier ScroMo op, which saved me a frequency change and a couple of calls just when things were really busy.
So there you are - not much paranoid persecution of fellow pilots there, just a satisfying day's work. Before I started this job I had 27 years of working for Her Maj, developing the inevitable healthy cynicism that tends to go with the job. Like most, I had my own preconceived ideas about the sort of people who join the Police and do their work. Well, I'm delighted to say that they continue to pleasantly surprise me with their honesty, integrity and - all too often - their personal courage. I've seen sights from above that would make your hair curl - including the death of 2 of your sometimes-reviled traffic officers when they were rammed by a drunken speeding motorist. So next time you feel like venting your spleen, just pause for a sec, think what that officer might have had to see or do perhaps not too long ago, then give him/her the benefit of the doubt that you would want from him/her. Try smiling too - if nothing else it'll confuse the beggars. You know, you could even try obeying the law and sticking to the rules of the road! - then they'd leave you in peace! - maybe
Right, that's done. Back to gluons, hadrons and quarks, then...
What I did:
Arrived 10 mins before shift-start time, chatted to the bored security man at the entrance, went into the office. Completed handover/takeover, checked Met and that wonderful AIS NOTAM system, did W&Balance calcs and paperwork. Had a cup of tea and bowl of cereal, went out to aircraft (oh, sorry PPRuNe Saddo#1, is that not on your list? It's just that ships are what matelots are found in over here, and we don't want to be, er, tarred with that brush do we?) to do the compressor washes and Daily Inspection. Topped up the MGB oil, helped by police observer who manipulated the Risbridger pump even though it's not in his job description.
Went back inside, made tea (it's true Pete - honest!!), finished paperwork and started OU homework. After 15 minutes, made way out to aircraft (pronto) as ground units in neighbouring city were in pursuit of car containing 5 scrotes. These had already carried out street thefts, stolen/wrecked one OAPs moped and were driving lethally out of town. Arrived overhead Scrotemobile which stopped just before it entered another built-up area. Observed bomburst and helped ground units round up and arrest 4 offenders. Was looking for 5th when WPC called up to say she'd found him hiding in boot of (stolen) ScroMo along with muchos burgled items. Headed back past base en route to the first of several fires seen that day. Glorious weather, dry ground and bored youngsters seem to have that effect... Spent 35 minutes looking for suicidal man who'd rigged up hosepipe from exhaust into car, and was now on his mobile to the Force Control Room. The lass there was not having a good morning, hearing him become less and less coherent as the engine rumbled on in the background. We didn't see him, but the units on the ground did - he'll live (probably a "cry for help", as CO usually works faster than that). You should've seen those officers sprint from garage to garage for over half an hour, with all that stab-proof clobber they have to wear.
Back to base, refuelled aircraft, waved back to pilot of Robin who must pay a fortune to keep his aircraft there, headed in to finish paperwork and restart homework. Was caught by observers as I played minesweeper instead of studying Quantum Chromodynamics - forced to make teas for remainder of shift as punishment. Brain started hurting.
Early afternoon, call came through re stolen vehicle on motorway. Launched immediately, found vehicle (which was doing well over 70 in 30MPH areas including schools) and maintained observation position while crew controlled the pursuit. Watched as the stolen vehicle graunched to a halt and the 2 occupants scarpered. Police Motorway Patrol M-class Merc arrived; observed the officer in the passenger side emerge from his vehicle and start sprinting after the driver of the abandoned car. Helpful cyclist lent his bike to policeman - observed said bobby now go pounding off after his target. Target stopped sprinting - mistake, as bobby launched himself straight off the bike and put him unmistakeably under arrest. Meanwhile, our observers had guided the M-class driver around to where the passenger of the stolen car was trying to nonchalantly stroll away from the area. Second man swiftly joined his mate in cuffs. Eight minutes 30 secs from ops room chair to 2 in custody - result! Especially as car was loaded with proceeds from 2 days worth of burglaries. Resumed patrol - nothing unusual, back to base/refuel/tea/paperwork (note priorities).
Another inconclusive trip to try and find would-be housebreakers reported hiding in a garden. Back to base refuel etc; chatted to the pilot from the air taxi firm based in the same building as us. Hosted visiting bobbies who'd come to collect evidential video (well, made them tea while the observers showed them the Motorway Bicycle Display Team video clip over and over again...). Twelve hours after starting shift, packed up homework and started handover to the night crew. Offered to make incoming pilot a cup of tea, but he's had one of mine before and - not knowing the antidote - wisely refused. Went back to the accommodation. Slept.
What I DIDN'T do :
I didn't ignore the security man, or treat him like something I'd just found on the bottom of my shoe - as some of the passengers for the Business Terminal often do. Some of them drive BMWs, you know...
I didn't ask the observers if we could go and scout out some helicopter sites so's we could give the owners a hard time; I'd be out of a job within hours if I tried.
I didn't ignore or patronise the air taxi or Robin pilots, both of whom are probably at least my equals or better at what they do.
I didn't point out yet again to my long-suffering observers that: (deep breath) people who buy expensive cars, keep them outside their empty garage, leave the keys hanging on the front door below a glass panel and then go and watch telly in a back room (exhale...) actually deserve to have some teenage sh*t come along, break glass, steal keys, get into motor and drive off. Mind you, I didn't entirely sympathise with the people who'd just seen what happens when you do that, either.
I didn't ask the bobbies if I could patrol up and down the CTZ boundary looking out for unauthorised intruders on one side or illegal low-fliers on the other. Mind you, I did mutter an oath at the **** in his Robbie who flew along at dusk, no lights, smack on the boundary at 800 feet talking to nobody - still, it's a free country...
I didn't forget to apologise to ATC after I had to ask them to say again to a call they made during the pursuit. Or to thank them for liaising with the airport of the neighbouring city during the earlier ScroMo op, which saved me a frequency change and a couple of calls just when things were really busy.
So there you are - not much paranoid persecution of fellow pilots there, just a satisfying day's work. Before I started this job I had 27 years of working for Her Maj, developing the inevitable healthy cynicism that tends to go with the job. Like most, I had my own preconceived ideas about the sort of people who join the Police and do their work. Well, I'm delighted to say that they continue to pleasantly surprise me with their honesty, integrity and - all too often - their personal courage. I've seen sights from above that would make your hair curl - including the death of 2 of your sometimes-reviled traffic officers when they were rammed by a drunken speeding motorist. So next time you feel like venting your spleen, just pause for a sec, think what that officer might have had to see or do perhaps not too long ago, then give him/her the benefit of the doubt that you would want from him/her. Try smiling too - if nothing else it'll confuse the beggars. You know, you could even try obeying the law and sticking to the rules of the road! - then they'd leave you in peace! - maybe
Right, that's done. Back to gluons, hadrons and quarks, then...
No No No No! I'm trying to learn about QCD - and not doing brilliantly, even though it's only Level 1 of the OU (think first term on a real degree course...). NL & co? I am not worthy.. and who's that playing Bohemian Rhapsody in the background?
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Flying Lawyer,
[I feel a bit vulnerable at trying to explain my thoughts about any aspect of the law to you but here goes anyway]
What I was trying to say was that the police are (fairly obviously) meant to enforce the criminal law; and that far from excluding the ANO etc. they specifically do have some powers (and associated responsibilities) in respect of the ANO etc. They may not be the main law enforcer in aviation, but I think it probably unwise to expect them to ignore obvious and significant breaches which occur in front of them.
This does not mean that police helicopters (usually) spend any significant time and effort investigating possible breaches of aviation law on their own initiative.
Let me use an example that has occurred to me. Several days previously, a TRA had been designated to protect emergency services aircraft at the scene of a major accident. It had been NOTAMed, and the local ATC FIS providers were telling pilots about it. The pilot of an aeroplane flew within the TRA and passed close to, and at the same height as a low-level hovering police helicopter, so that he scared the crew of that aircraft. Don't then be surprised if the crew want to know who it was and why the aeroplane flew in that way.
Equally, these days, if you blunder into a Control Zone at a significant airport, don't be surprised if you get chased by a Police Helicopter that has been requested to identify the aircraft by ATC and/or "the counter-terrorism squad".
Police helicopters do get used for work for other law enforcement agencies from time to time. Customs and Excise use Police Air Support, for example. I have never flown a job for the CAA yet, but have done a number of jobs for the AAIB in connection with air accidents and their investigation. We also, of course, go looking for lost or distressed aircraft too. Just like we often get involved in similar tasks in connection with the railways, other means of transport and all manor of human activities.
I can only agree that the legal process is a time and money consuming business, and it can take enormous effort and cost a lot to defend yourself. I am not sure that the main people to blame for this are the crew of police helicopters (whether police officers or civilian pilots) - I would have thought that politicians, lawyers, administrators, lawyers, public opinion, lawyers and the media had more to do with that. I am also sure that police officers would agree with you about the extraordinary amount of time and effort absorbed in the legal justice system.
Anyone with any experience of the legal justice system knows it is distinctly imperfect. If we could find a better system than the current one we would all be pleased to see it adopted.
[I feel a bit vulnerable at trying to explain my thoughts about any aspect of the law to you but here goes anyway]
What I was trying to say was that the police are (fairly obviously) meant to enforce the criminal law; and that far from excluding the ANO etc. they specifically do have some powers (and associated responsibilities) in respect of the ANO etc. They may not be the main law enforcer in aviation, but I think it probably unwise to expect them to ignore obvious and significant breaches which occur in front of them.
This does not mean that police helicopters (usually) spend any significant time and effort investigating possible breaches of aviation law on their own initiative.
Let me use an example that has occurred to me. Several days previously, a TRA had been designated to protect emergency services aircraft at the scene of a major accident. It had been NOTAMed, and the local ATC FIS providers were telling pilots about it. The pilot of an aeroplane flew within the TRA and passed close to, and at the same height as a low-level hovering police helicopter, so that he scared the crew of that aircraft. Don't then be surprised if the crew want to know who it was and why the aeroplane flew in that way.
Equally, these days, if you blunder into a Control Zone at a significant airport, don't be surprised if you get chased by a Police Helicopter that has been requested to identify the aircraft by ATC and/or "the counter-terrorism squad".
Police helicopters do get used for work for other law enforcement agencies from time to time. Customs and Excise use Police Air Support, for example. I have never flown a job for the CAA yet, but have done a number of jobs for the AAIB in connection with air accidents and their investigation. We also, of course, go looking for lost or distressed aircraft too. Just like we often get involved in similar tasks in connection with the railways, other means of transport and all manor of human activities.
I can only agree that the legal process is a time and money consuming business, and it can take enormous effort and cost a lot to defend yourself. I am not sure that the main people to blame for this are the crew of police helicopters (whether police officers or civilian pilots) - I would have thought that politicians, lawyers, administrators, lawyers, public opinion, lawyers and the media had more to do with that. I am also sure that police officers would agree with you about the extraordinary amount of time and effort absorbed in the legal justice system.
Anyone with any experience of the legal justice system knows it is distinctly imperfect. If we could find a better system than the current one we would all be pleased to see it adopted.
Last edited by Helinut; 14th Sep 2003 at 05:53.
Motorway Bicycle Display Team video clip
T & B,
Another quiet day in the office? Great description, I look forward to seeing the videotape on PCA one day
Another quiet day in the office? Great description, I look forward to seeing the videotape on PCA one day
All Police Agencies have Internal Review procedures to address allegations of wrongdoing by officers. I would suggest you take a very large Chill Pill.....then in a most business like and polite manner....visit the Cop Shop.....make parley with the Chief Constable.....state your concerns....take your proof of correctness....and see if you cannot resolve the issues in a low key....gentlemanly manner.
I dare say....this ain't the correct venue for redress of grievance if you in fact have one. We will throw our arms about your shoulders....and say nice supportive things....but that does not resolve the issue.
Now if by chance....you are not legal....and have liabilities that would make such a visit an unwise move.....then maybe a return to a very low key profile might be the better move.
Maybe offering to assist the police whenever possible by providing your aircraft when appropriate might be the way to win them over. I used that approach at a previous worksite and it worked miracles. After I loaded up my 500E with State Troopers to look for a criminal that had attacked another State Trooper, my ability to land at the company office in a vacant field went without notice beyond a smile and a handwave. One Trooper even told a complainant , "That was our helicopter!"
Even Heliport will agree that Sugar beats Vinegar for catching a fly!
I dare say....this ain't the correct venue for redress of grievance if you in fact have one. We will throw our arms about your shoulders....and say nice supportive things....but that does not resolve the issue.
Now if by chance....you are not legal....and have liabilities that would make such a visit an unwise move.....then maybe a return to a very low key profile might be the better move.
Maybe offering to assist the police whenever possible by providing your aircraft when appropriate might be the way to win them over. I used that approach at a previous worksite and it worked miracles. After I loaded up my 500E with State Troopers to look for a criminal that had attacked another State Trooper, my ability to land at the company office in a vacant field went without notice beyond a smile and a handwave. One Trooper even told a complainant , "That was our helicopter!"
Even Heliport will agree that Sugar beats Vinegar for catching a fly!
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well i am still here and looking at the responces i would like to thank all off you for your comments
and my conclusion is i am not doing any thing wrong helicopters was designed for there ability to take off from small places
and i have alwasy flown helicopters for this reason
in america they fly in and out of citys in between sky scrapers.
i am landing my helicopter over open land and will continue to untill the day comes the west yorkshire police helicopter films me again and sends it to the C A A and wait to see what happens a big fine they are 3 people who fly this helicopter and we have all decided to continue
to fly from here who they catch i dont know we will split the cost 3 ways who ever they film if we get fined or found not guilty we are not breaking any rules we have looked at rule 5 and the CAA
has lost many cases in the past
i have worked hard for my dreem since the age of 7 and now to have to look over your shoulder where ever you fly it knocks
fun out of it
TCAS is a nice thing to have Now one step ahead whos around now we know.
they might film me from space forgot about that
and my conclusion is i am not doing any thing wrong helicopters was designed for there ability to take off from small places
and i have alwasy flown helicopters for this reason
in america they fly in and out of citys in between sky scrapers.
i am landing my helicopter over open land and will continue to untill the day comes the west yorkshire police helicopter films me again and sends it to the C A A and wait to see what happens a big fine they are 3 people who fly this helicopter and we have all decided to continue
to fly from here who they catch i dont know we will split the cost 3 ways who ever they film if we get fined or found not guilty we are not breaking any rules we have looked at rule 5 and the CAA
has lost many cases in the past
i have worked hard for my dreem since the age of 7 and now to have to look over your shoulder where ever you fly it knocks
fun out of it
TCAS is a nice thing to have Now one step ahead whos around now we know.
they might film me from space forgot about that
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At the risk of appearing flippant, which is a big word and I fully intend to look it up in the dictionary one day, maybe we should organise some job swaps for a while, so that we can more appreciate each others perspective.
The answer to all the following questions is yes…..
Am I a police officer?
Do I enjoy my job?
Do I work on an ASU?
Do I enjoy my specific role?
Do I enjoy reading and contributing on PPRUNE?
Have I enjoyed reading this thread?
Can I hear the sound of axes being ground?
Do I wish I could afford to own a helicopter?
Do I wish I had my PPL(H)? (Only had 5 hrs to date)
The answer to all the following questions is no…..
Do I want to go and patrol the streets again, be spat at, otherwise assaulted and generally abused for doing my job?
Would I mind if I had to?
Do I have a chip on my shoulder?
Am I jealous of people that can afford to own a helicopter? (Just because I would like one doesn't make me jealous of others that do)
Do I think Heliport should have made the comments he did using his moderator logon?
Do I own a BMW?
Do I wish I owned a BMW?
Most drivers tend to believe that they are better or more skilled than they actually are (this includes all drivers: civilian, police or otherwise) They believe they are safe and they think they are in control whatever the situation. In my opinion most pilots are the opposite and safety is at the forefront of their mind. The consequences of their actions are more clearly thought through in advance, which is rarely the case on the roads.
As an aside, I have never given anyone a fixed penalty ticket (3 points) for speeding. Whenever in the past I have stopped people for speeding I have asked them, what they think would happen if someone ran out into the road so that it was impossible to avoid them. The 'accident' itself would not be their fault, but that of the person who ran out. However because at the time of the collision they were travelling in excess of the speed limit, if the person were to die, they are likely to be charged with death by careless (or possibly even dangerous) driving. It is possible to go to prison for up to ten years for an accident that was not directly their fault, because they were speeding. Most have argued that the chances of it happening are remote, which is true, but their faces and reactions always changed when I tell them that it happened to me, although I was doing 37 in a 60 mph limit on a dual carriageway. There are many times since that I have wondered what would have happened if I had been doing 70 or 80 that day. I always asked errant motorists to do the same. That more than 3 points I reckon slows people down.
Back to the point (well mine at any rate). There are, and always will be, a few pilots who fly like many people drive, and ignore the law. We know they exist, and these few, tarnish the reputation of the majority. It’s the same for the police. There are always a few that tarnish the reputation of the rest of us, however things differ in the police for several reasons. Not least of which is that a police officer may be held in dereliction of duty (on or off duty) with the potential of losing their job, if they fail to act in response to an offence. Pilots are not.
Your opinion please. A police officer (off duty) sees somebody attempting to steal a car. Should they:
A. Take action because it's the right thing to do and anyway they have sworn to do so?
B. Take action, because they could get into trouble if they don't?
C. Ignore it, it's not really their business.
If your answer is C, assume it’s your car? What if it wasn't a police officer that saw it, but a pilot, would your answer differ? Possibly and probably for good reason. If however the offence is now one against the Air Navigation Order does your answer still change? If it does then you are being a tad hypocritical or at least bias towards the aviation industry, of which by the way, I am proud to be a small part of. As such I do not want any other person to act in a way that might bring its standards down, just as I wouldn't want another police officer to do the same to the police service. But it does happen. The aviation industry is quite closed, and few outside know how it works and are aware of all that goes on, therefore it is easy to keep things in house, lest the external reputation suffer for the malpractice of a few. Is that OK? It certainly echoes strongly of the police culture of not so long ago.
As police officers who happen to be part of the aviation industry, we are not suddenly relieved of our duty or discretion. Yes we should use common sense, but if we see anything that is clearly dangerous and could possibly harm others then we should take action. It should not matter whether it's in the air or the ground. Do we really want the police to deal with some offences and completely ignore others? Discretion is a wonderful thing, but everyone has their own slant on it, and those views are very apparent on this thread.
You may come back at me and say, "ahh but the police would not act if they saw a colleague erring." I think most people would be surprised at how eagerly a police officer will report their colleagues for the most trivial matter upwards. In fact it is encouraged. But you're right, there are officers that turn a blind eye, but these are the few that I have mentioned, and they ruin it for the rest of us. It wasn't always that way, there used to be a 'look after your own' policy, but, whether you like it or not, times have changed and most police officers will now report a colleague's misdemeanours.
The aviation industry on the other hand, is still IMO, very much, a 'look after your own' place to work. Many threads on these forums will bear this out.
However, before I am lambasted, flayed and hung out to dry, I am not saying that this is necessarily wrong. Whilst in the police this attitude is akin to corruption, in aviation it is not, and colleagues are very much aware of the commercial pressures placed on others as well as a host of other factors. There is also the fact that failure to act when an offence is committed is not, in itself, legally wrong. If you believe this attitude is alright for the aviation industry then that's fine.
The police have rightly been criticised for many things in the past, from incompetence to corruption, and we are still suffering because of the things that we (the service) have done wrong in the past. I am sure that this post will have some pilots feeling indignant, and many will think it unfair or plainly wrong. If this is the case, then you will be well placed to understand how as police officers we feel when unfair or plainly wrong posts are made about the police.
On a spiritual note maybe we should all read, inwardly digest and act upon Luke Chapter 6, verses 37 to 42.
Something about planks and eyes (thought it rather appropriate for Rotorheads!).
WP
Edited for typo.
The answer to all the following questions is yes…..
Am I a police officer?
Do I enjoy my job?
Do I work on an ASU?
Do I enjoy my specific role?
Do I enjoy reading and contributing on PPRUNE?
Have I enjoyed reading this thread?
Can I hear the sound of axes being ground?
Do I wish I could afford to own a helicopter?
Do I wish I had my PPL(H)? (Only had 5 hrs to date)
The answer to all the following questions is no…..
Do I want to go and patrol the streets again, be spat at, otherwise assaulted and generally abused for doing my job?
Would I mind if I had to?
Do I have a chip on my shoulder?
Am I jealous of people that can afford to own a helicopter? (Just because I would like one doesn't make me jealous of others that do)
Do I think Heliport should have made the comments he did using his moderator logon?
Do I own a BMW?
Do I wish I owned a BMW?
Most drivers tend to believe that they are better or more skilled than they actually are (this includes all drivers: civilian, police or otherwise) They believe they are safe and they think they are in control whatever the situation. In my opinion most pilots are the opposite and safety is at the forefront of their mind. The consequences of their actions are more clearly thought through in advance, which is rarely the case on the roads.
As an aside, I have never given anyone a fixed penalty ticket (3 points) for speeding. Whenever in the past I have stopped people for speeding I have asked them, what they think would happen if someone ran out into the road so that it was impossible to avoid them. The 'accident' itself would not be their fault, but that of the person who ran out. However because at the time of the collision they were travelling in excess of the speed limit, if the person were to die, they are likely to be charged with death by careless (or possibly even dangerous) driving. It is possible to go to prison for up to ten years for an accident that was not directly their fault, because they were speeding. Most have argued that the chances of it happening are remote, which is true, but their faces and reactions always changed when I tell them that it happened to me, although I was doing 37 in a 60 mph limit on a dual carriageway. There are many times since that I have wondered what would have happened if I had been doing 70 or 80 that day. I always asked errant motorists to do the same. That more than 3 points I reckon slows people down.
Back to the point (well mine at any rate). There are, and always will be, a few pilots who fly like many people drive, and ignore the law. We know they exist, and these few, tarnish the reputation of the majority. It’s the same for the police. There are always a few that tarnish the reputation of the rest of us, however things differ in the police for several reasons. Not least of which is that a police officer may be held in dereliction of duty (on or off duty) with the potential of losing their job, if they fail to act in response to an offence. Pilots are not.
Your opinion please. A police officer (off duty) sees somebody attempting to steal a car. Should they:
A. Take action because it's the right thing to do and anyway they have sworn to do so?
B. Take action, because they could get into trouble if they don't?
C. Ignore it, it's not really their business.
If your answer is C, assume it’s your car? What if it wasn't a police officer that saw it, but a pilot, would your answer differ? Possibly and probably for good reason. If however the offence is now one against the Air Navigation Order does your answer still change? If it does then you are being a tad hypocritical or at least bias towards the aviation industry, of which by the way, I am proud to be a small part of. As such I do not want any other person to act in a way that might bring its standards down, just as I wouldn't want another police officer to do the same to the police service. But it does happen. The aviation industry is quite closed, and few outside know how it works and are aware of all that goes on, therefore it is easy to keep things in house, lest the external reputation suffer for the malpractice of a few. Is that OK? It certainly echoes strongly of the police culture of not so long ago.
As police officers who happen to be part of the aviation industry, we are not suddenly relieved of our duty or discretion. Yes we should use common sense, but if we see anything that is clearly dangerous and could possibly harm others then we should take action. It should not matter whether it's in the air or the ground. Do we really want the police to deal with some offences and completely ignore others? Discretion is a wonderful thing, but everyone has their own slant on it, and those views are very apparent on this thread.
You may come back at me and say, "ahh but the police would not act if they saw a colleague erring." I think most people would be surprised at how eagerly a police officer will report their colleagues for the most trivial matter upwards. In fact it is encouraged. But you're right, there are officers that turn a blind eye, but these are the few that I have mentioned, and they ruin it for the rest of us. It wasn't always that way, there used to be a 'look after your own' policy, but, whether you like it or not, times have changed and most police officers will now report a colleague's misdemeanours.
The aviation industry on the other hand, is still IMO, very much, a 'look after your own' place to work. Many threads on these forums will bear this out.
However, before I am lambasted, flayed and hung out to dry, I am not saying that this is necessarily wrong. Whilst in the police this attitude is akin to corruption, in aviation it is not, and colleagues are very much aware of the commercial pressures placed on others as well as a host of other factors. There is also the fact that failure to act when an offence is committed is not, in itself, legally wrong. If you believe this attitude is alright for the aviation industry then that's fine.The police have rightly been criticised for many things in the past, from incompetence to corruption, and we are still suffering because of the things that we (the service) have done wrong in the past. I am sure that this post will have some pilots feeling indignant, and many will think it unfair or plainly wrong. If this is the case, then you will be well placed to understand how as police officers we feel when unfair or plainly wrong posts are made about the police.
On a spiritual note maybe we should all read, inwardly digest and act upon Luke Chapter 6, verses 37 to 42.
Something about planks and eyes (thought it rather appropriate for Rotorheads!).WP
Edited for typo.
Last edited by Windle Poons; 14th Sep 2003 at 22:27.
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I appreciate that this may be a little off topic, but to obtain a PPL(H) is there any sort of written test, or do you just draw a ring around the answer with a crayon?
Thread Starter
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i dont think all asu are the same its just this one and its all instigated by one man poisoning the others who thinks he can
control who he wants hes not a police man hes a pilot and Dick
Meston was always one step of him.
The police have to do there job yes some are fair and have brains and see the world with open eyes and some have blinkers
on. just like mr public we are all human after all and not perfect we all have to die some day so lets all try to get on together.
i am sounding like a vicar now i am shuting up for a while
BIG GEE
control who he wants hes not a police man hes a pilot and Dick
Meston was always one step of him.
The police have to do there job yes some are fair and have brains and see the world with open eyes and some have blinkers
on. just like mr public we are all human after all and not perfect we all have to die some day so lets all try to get on together.
i am sounding like a vicar now i am shuting up for a while
BIG GEE
Big G:
Can I ask a couple of questions, if that's OK?
1. Do you own/operate both an Hungarian registered Gazelle, and an Hungarian registered Allouette? Or only one of them?
2. Do you have an AOC?
3. Are you english?
4. Are you familiar with Rule 5 of the ANO?
I hope this isn't too much of a problem for you...
Many thanks for your co-operation.
TC
Can I ask a couple of questions, if that's OK?
1. Do you own/operate both an Hungarian registered Gazelle, and an Hungarian registered Allouette? Or only one of them?
2. Do you have an AOC?
3. Are you english?
4. Are you familiar with Rule 5 of the ANO?
I hope this isn't too much of a problem for you...
Many thanks for your co-operation.
TC
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Big Gee, question.
Are you breaking the law by doing what you are doing?
If so, even if this police officer is a little ambitious (he/they are doing there job), are you not wrong first and foremost?
Are you placing the blame on the police for what ultimately is your wrong doing?
I am not here to chime in to defend anyone. Do not know your rules on that side of the pond enough to do so. But I see a theme here. Kinda like the one I was always hearing when I worked the street about how that person was picked on because he/she was a young kid in an expensive automobile. Not that the driving was such that it kept getting them noticed. Or the fixed wing pilot who could not believe I prosecuted him just because he went under me in the middle of a city, and I was only at 400 agl.
Are you breaking the law by doing what you are doing?
If so, even if this police officer is a little ambitious (he/they are doing there job), are you not wrong first and foremost?
Are you placing the blame on the police for what ultimately is your wrong doing?
I am not here to chime in to defend anyone. Do not know your rules on that side of the pond enough to do so. But I see a theme here. Kinda like the one I was always hearing when I worked the street about how that person was picked on because he/she was a young kid in an expensive automobile. Not that the driving was such that it kept getting them noticed. Or the fixed wing pilot who could not believe I prosecuted him just because he went under me in the middle of a city, and I was only at 400 agl.
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Getting away from the original subject for a moment, FlyingLawyer poses an interesting question when he asks :
"Should we think of police helicopters when we're flying in the same way we think of police cars when we're driving? "
I think that most Police Officers would agree with me that when they go out on patrol they see "lots" of motorists committing offences which are considered as being towards the petty end of the scale : Not wearing a seat belt and Using a mobile phone while driving are two examples.
The Police don't have the time to stop everyone they see committing these dastardly crimes, or they wouldn't have time to do anything else ( like catching the burglars, robbers, rapists etc )
but on seeing the patrol car the "offender" will ( usually ) have the presence of mind to put their seat belt on, or hang up the phone.
This tells us two important things :
1. The individual KNOWS that what they were doing was wrong
2. The Police patrol has a deterrent effect
( See where this is going ? )
Now then, contrary to the opinions of a few motorists ( who are often the worst "offenders" ) the laws, or more precisely the variety of Road Traffic Legislation that "Traffic Cops" are supposed to enforce, was NOT intended to simply persecute motorists, nor was it intended as a Revenue raising exercise for the Police fund, but was enacted for the SAFETY of road users.
There are far too many people killed on our roads as a direct result of ignoring some of these regulations ( Excess speed being the single cause of the most fatalities on our roads ).
( You should have got my drift by now ... )
So : The answer to FlyingLawyers question should probably be YES - especially if it has the same effect of reminding the "driver" of some apparantly petty regulation that they are not complying with, and has the same effect as buckling up in the car - the rules and regulations of the air are there, just like the one's that tell us to buckle up and stick to 70 on the motorway - for the safety of us all
Here's a question of my own :
How many AAIB reports have you read that identify a chain of events which started when a regulation or rule ( or maybe even a correct procedure ) was not followed ?
I sincerely hope we don't read any in the future concerning "illegal" helipads
"Should we think of police helicopters when we're flying in the same way we think of police cars when we're driving? "
I think that most Police Officers would agree with me that when they go out on patrol they see "lots" of motorists committing offences which are considered as being towards the petty end of the scale : Not wearing a seat belt and Using a mobile phone while driving are two examples.
The Police don't have the time to stop everyone they see committing these dastardly crimes, or they wouldn't have time to do anything else ( like catching the burglars, robbers, rapists etc )
but on seeing the patrol car the "offender" will ( usually ) have the presence of mind to put their seat belt on, or hang up the phone.
This tells us two important things :
1. The individual KNOWS that what they were doing was wrong
2. The Police patrol has a deterrent effect
( See where this is going ? )
Now then, contrary to the opinions of a few motorists ( who are often the worst "offenders" ) the laws, or more precisely the variety of Road Traffic Legislation that "Traffic Cops" are supposed to enforce, was NOT intended to simply persecute motorists, nor was it intended as a Revenue raising exercise for the Police fund, but was enacted for the SAFETY of road users.
There are far too many people killed on our roads as a direct result of ignoring some of these regulations ( Excess speed being the single cause of the most fatalities on our roads ).
( You should have got my drift by now ... )
So : The answer to FlyingLawyers question should probably be YES - especially if it has the same effect of reminding the "driver" of some apparantly petty regulation that they are not complying with, and has the same effect as buckling up in the car - the rules and regulations of the air are there, just like the one's that tell us to buckle up and stick to 70 on the motorway - for the safety of us all
Here's a question of my own :
How many AAIB reports have you read that identify a chain of events which started when a regulation or rule ( or maybe even a correct procedure ) was not followed ?
I sincerely hope we don't read any in the future concerning "illegal" helipads