So you want to be an instructor?
Guest
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Wow, this thread is still going on!
I just ouldn't resist making the 100th post.
In the words of Vic Reeves... "you just wouldn't let it lie"
Can we all stop now, please (please).
The suns shining, the glass is half full and I'm off flying tomorrow down to Dorset with my five yr old daughter to go camping, thank you life...yippee!!
Have great bank holiday weekend!
I just ouldn't resist making the 100th post.
In the words of Vic Reeves... "you just wouldn't let it lie"
Can we all stop now, please (please).
The suns shining, the glass is half full and I'm off flying tomorrow down to Dorset with my five yr old daughter to go camping, thank you life...yippee!!
Have great bank holiday weekend!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Now here's an idea Crash if you don't want to take up my challenge...
Why not, in your free time of course, become a FREE driving instructor first to test your theory. Don't forget to tell all the approved professional driving instructors they are arrogant etc. Why stop at that. If you like scuba diving, become a FREE scuba instructor too, don't forget to tell the approved professional diving instructors that they are arrogant etc.
If your theories that other people's livlihoods don't matter so that you can have fun on weekends teaching people to drive or dive make you happy, successful and popular please let us all know. Also let us know how to keep body and soul together with no income. Because who knows maybe those of us who beleive that instructing is a PROFESSION were wrong all along.
Please publish your results here on pprune for us all to have a laugh at.
Why not, in your free time of course, become a FREE driving instructor first to test your theory. Don't forget to tell all the approved professional driving instructors they are arrogant etc. Why stop at that. If you like scuba diving, become a FREE scuba instructor too, don't forget to tell the approved professional diving instructors that they are arrogant etc.
If your theories that other people's livlihoods don't matter so that you can have fun on weekends teaching people to drive or dive make you happy, successful and popular please let us all know. Also let us know how to keep body and soul together with no income. Because who knows maybe those of us who beleive that instructing is a PROFESSION were wrong all along.
Please publish your results here on pprune for us all to have a laugh at.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crash
Get out your books again the CAA wont
change things back to tha way things were
If
YOU WANT TO BE AN INSTRUCTOR
YOU CANNOT QUIT THE CPLs
that you started many years ago
Do Not Quit
When things go wrong, as they sometimes will
When the road you're trudging seems all up hill,
When the funds are low and the debts are high,
And you want to smile, but you have to sigh,
When care is pressing you down a bit,
Rest, if you must - but do not quit.
Life is queer with its twists and turns,
As everyone of us sometimes learns,
And many a failure turns about
When he might have won had he stuck it out;
Do not give up, though the pace seems slow -
You might succeed with another blow.
Often the goal is nearer than
It seems to a faint and faltering man,
Often the struggler has given up
When he might have captured the victor's cup.
And he learned too late, when the night slipped down,
How close he was to the golden crown.
Success is failure turned inside out,
The silver tint of the clouds of doubt,
And you never can tell how close you are
It may be near when it seems afar;
So stick to the fight when you are hardest hit
It's when things seem worst that you must not quit.
Bovey
Get out your books again the CAA wont
change things back to tha way things were
If
YOU WANT TO BE AN INSTRUCTOR
YOU CANNOT QUIT THE CPLs
that you started many years ago
Do Not Quit
When things go wrong, as they sometimes will
When the road you're trudging seems all up hill,
When the funds are low and the debts are high,
And you want to smile, but you have to sigh,
When care is pressing you down a bit,
Rest, if you must - but do not quit.
Life is queer with its twists and turns,
As everyone of us sometimes learns,
And many a failure turns about
When he might have won had he stuck it out;
Do not give up, though the pace seems slow -
You might succeed with another blow.
Often the goal is nearer than
It seems to a faint and faltering man,
Often the struggler has given up
When he might have captured the victor's cup.
And he learned too late, when the night slipped down,
How close he was to the golden crown.
Success is failure turned inside out,
The silver tint of the clouds of doubt,
And you never can tell how close you are
It may be near when it seems afar;
So stick to the fight when you are hardest hit
It's when things seem worst that you must not quit.
Bovey
Guest
Posts: n/a
Go Luke!
Its been sunny recently and I'm still on a high from this new job so being sanguine has not been too hard for me
Seriously - have you condidered trying the Air Training Corps Vulunteer Gliding Squadrons? I think it might be exactly what you want on a volunteer basis.
They have motorgliders with a fair bit of poke, excellent squadron comaraderie, professional atmosphere, operate out of some historic old airfields, get to send 16 year old Bloggs first solo every couple of weeks, summer camps for a week away somewhere on detachment, charging around in HM's finest yellow landrovers, long summer afternoons, game of football on the grass, jumpers for goalposts, baked beans on toast, white cliffs of Dover, the shipping forecast...
Sorry. Carried away there.
WWW
Its been sunny recently and I'm still on a high from this new job so being sanguine has not been too hard for me
Seriously - have you condidered trying the Air Training Corps Vulunteer Gliding Squadrons? I think it might be exactly what you want on a volunteer basis.
They have motorgliders with a fair bit of poke, excellent squadron comaraderie, professional atmosphere, operate out of some historic old airfields, get to send 16 year old Bloggs first solo every couple of weeks, summer camps for a week away somewhere on detachment, charging around in HM's finest yellow landrovers, long summer afternoons, game of football on the grass, jumpers for goalposts, baked beans on toast, white cliffs of Dover, the shipping forecast...
Sorry. Carried away there.
WWW
Guest
Posts: n/a
All,
Having resisted entering into this debate, I offer you the following.......
I've just come in from mowing my lawn, a time when I mull over things with few distractions. This got me thinking.
There is an absolute wealth of intelligence and this has come through load and clear. But, your honour, this in fighting and squabbling hides the real problem in my view.
The system we have is rubbish. The JAA implementation has been a cock up. What's wrong with hour builders using instructing to gain hours? The real problem I think is that the real motive behind this is to close the self improver route up. Why? What the hell is wrong with it? Sure, the military screen people, but I for one have no wish to join them.
My case, I chose to stay in a decent job, bring up a family, pay off my debts and use the self improver route as an entry to enable me to have a career change later on. Any one have a problem with that? I'll have no debts when/if I start work, and I would not begrudge anyone who wishes to do the same, however they achieved it.
Professional instructors. Sure, I know plenty, I've been around a while, and most are happy as Larry. They tend to be CFI's, do the tests and have no problem with our builders. I know one who's on Grandfather rights, currently well over 20,000 hours (not out of his 40's either), and washed planes to get a PPL together. Under today's system, he's never (by his admition) be doing it, as he has no desire to do the exams. Before you start firing from the hip, he stands out alone as the best instructor I ever had. He taught me, and I worked for him too, and I say that from both sides of the fence.
If the 'non' professional (hour builder) instructor is seen as not up to doing the job, then the system should not allow him to do so. I know of good and bad in both camps.
Lets face it, rather than squabble over this, lets use the forum to debate a better way of doing this, canvas those with money and clout who could benefit from a decent fair system.
And to those of you sitting behind glass cockpits, or got into it easily, try and see it from the other side too. Take this as constructive note, not as criticism.
Off to put that asbestos jacket on.
PS
Having resisted entering into this debate, I offer you the following.......
I've just come in from mowing my lawn, a time when I mull over things with few distractions. This got me thinking.
There is an absolute wealth of intelligence and this has come through load and clear. But, your honour, this in fighting and squabbling hides the real problem in my view.
The system we have is rubbish. The JAA implementation has been a cock up. What's wrong with hour builders using instructing to gain hours? The real problem I think is that the real motive behind this is to close the self improver route up. Why? What the hell is wrong with it? Sure, the military screen people, but I for one have no wish to join them.
My case, I chose to stay in a decent job, bring up a family, pay off my debts and use the self improver route as an entry to enable me to have a career change later on. Any one have a problem with that? I'll have no debts when/if I start work, and I would not begrudge anyone who wishes to do the same, however they achieved it.
Professional instructors. Sure, I know plenty, I've been around a while, and most are happy as Larry. They tend to be CFI's, do the tests and have no problem with our builders. I know one who's on Grandfather rights, currently well over 20,000 hours (not out of his 40's either), and washed planes to get a PPL together. Under today's system, he's never (by his admition) be doing it, as he has no desire to do the exams. Before you start firing from the hip, he stands out alone as the best instructor I ever had. He taught me, and I worked for him too, and I say that from both sides of the fence.
If the 'non' professional (hour builder) instructor is seen as not up to doing the job, then the system should not allow him to do so. I know of good and bad in both camps.
Lets face it, rather than squabble over this, lets use the forum to debate a better way of doing this, canvas those with money and clout who could benefit from a decent fair system.
And to those of you sitting behind glass cockpits, or got into it easily, try and see it from the other side too. Take this as constructive note, not as criticism.
Off to put that asbestos jacket on.
PS
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Posts: n/a
Amazing how much feeling this thread has provoked ! I think everyone should just relax, take a deep breath and lower the blood pressure...else you may end up failing your next class 1 medical........
So I get the drift that the general consensus from the Pro's (thanks to the almightly Bill Gates for pointing out the differnce between Pro's and Am's :-) is that they do not like these unpaid Am PPL Fi types. Seems to be two sides of the coin though, those who don't like 'em becasue they threaten their livelihood and those who don't like them because they believe that their instructing (or experience) abilities would not be as good.
Fair enough point about the instruction, if its not as good or the service to the student is not acceptable then I agree with you, though I would disagree with anyone saying a 1000 hr PPL's experience is not as good as a 300 hr CPL's.
Regarding threatening livelihood....would it be better for a PPL who wishes to instruct part time, and not give up everything, to go ahead and get the full CPL, and then still only instruct part time but draw a wage ? As was pointed out earlier its not that big a jump to go ahead and get it. Seems to me that this could work against the full time instructors, after all another body drawing a wage has got to impact on a clubs profit, maybe it'd be more convienient for the club to employ part timers? This whole arguement essentially boils down to Full time / Part time...Someone mentioned COMMITMENT earlier. It is possible to commit to more than one thing at a time...
I was taught to fly by a 'part time' CPL CFI who was also studying at University to get his Aeronautical degree, and all he was doing was hour building, while providing himself with enough dosh to live on. He was a damn good instructor too.
Here's a solution which I think may satisfy everyone......
1) Clubs limited on the number of UNPAID PPL FIs compared to the number of paid CPL instructors (ie. 10%)
2) Raise PPL FI minimum hours to 500 PIC (or whatever)
If you're then still worried about a part time instructors abilities, limit them to simple maneuvers, like initial flights, circuits, basic aircraft handling etc.....
Ok, I promise that'll be my last post on this subject (unless someone prokes me!).
Happy flying.............
So I get the drift that the general consensus from the Pro's (thanks to the almightly Bill Gates for pointing out the differnce between Pro's and Am's :-) is that they do not like these unpaid Am PPL Fi types. Seems to be two sides of the coin though, those who don't like 'em becasue they threaten their livelihood and those who don't like them because they believe that their instructing (or experience) abilities would not be as good.
Fair enough point about the instruction, if its not as good or the service to the student is not acceptable then I agree with you, though I would disagree with anyone saying a 1000 hr PPL's experience is not as good as a 300 hr CPL's.
Regarding threatening livelihood....would it be better for a PPL who wishes to instruct part time, and not give up everything, to go ahead and get the full CPL, and then still only instruct part time but draw a wage ? As was pointed out earlier its not that big a jump to go ahead and get it. Seems to me that this could work against the full time instructors, after all another body drawing a wage has got to impact on a clubs profit, maybe it'd be more convienient for the club to employ part timers? This whole arguement essentially boils down to Full time / Part time...Someone mentioned COMMITMENT earlier. It is possible to commit to more than one thing at a time...
I was taught to fly by a 'part time' CPL CFI who was also studying at University to get his Aeronautical degree, and all he was doing was hour building, while providing himself with enough dosh to live on. He was a damn good instructor too.
Here's a solution which I think may satisfy everyone......
1) Clubs limited on the number of UNPAID PPL FIs compared to the number of paid CPL instructors (ie. 10%)
2) Raise PPL FI minimum hours to 500 PIC (or whatever)
If you're then still worried about a part time instructors abilities, limit them to simple maneuvers, like initial flights, circuits, basic aircraft handling etc.....
Ok, I promise that'll be my last post on this subject (unless someone prokes me!).
Happy flying.............
Guest
Posts: n/a
When you have 100hrs, you think you know it all.
When you have 500hrs, you KNOW you know it all.
When you have 1000hrs, you know you'll never know it all.
Sorry, I'm not going go back and quote people by name but admitions have been made regarding what people got up to when they were newly qualified and giving the best instruction they are capable of. Good points.
An hour-building 'professional' may be able to pass on the required knowledge for a student to get a PPL but to be a 'pilot'.No.
There are Drivers, Pilots and Artists.
There are even instructors who have never even flown a taildragger. Can you believe that? Never flown a taildragger!
There are top-class aerobatic competition pilots who are not CPL holders.
Are people suggesting that they aren't actually very good pilots?
After all, they are only PPL's.
When you have 500hrs, you KNOW you know it all.
When you have 1000hrs, you know you'll never know it all.
Sorry, I'm not going go back and quote people by name but admitions have been made regarding what people got up to when they were newly qualified and giving the best instruction they are capable of. Good points.
An hour-building 'professional' may be able to pass on the required knowledge for a student to get a PPL but to be a 'pilot'.No.
There are Drivers, Pilots and Artists.
There are even instructors who have never even flown a taildragger. Can you believe that? Never flown a taildragger!
There are top-class aerobatic competition pilots who are not CPL holders.
Are people suggesting that they aren't actually very good pilots?
After all, they are only PPL's.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hmm, bit easier in the States. You can only log time as a student if you are dual with a qualified instructor,or solo under direct supervision. That's as I understand it anyway.
If that weren't the case, I'd have been able to log my glider intro flight which was an hour of dual with a commercial rated glider pilot (also ATPL etc). But as he was not Glider CFI qualified, I couldn't log the time.
If that weren't the case, I'd have been able to log my glider intro flight which was an hour of dual with a commercial rated glider pilot (also ATPL etc). But as he was not Glider CFI qualified, I couldn't log the time.
Guest
Posts: n/a
After 109 posts on the subject a fairly clear picture and consensus seems to be emerging.
It is understandable that those with so much at stake can become just a 'little' rattled by the comments here from some no doubt well intentioned ‘hobby’ pilots.
Fact is, that for would -be career pilots it’s bloody tough going, as Luke has so eloquently described.
There are many instructors who would like to stay instructors and progress that as a career. Sadly that for most is not an option for financial reasons. So please don’t brand so called hour building instructors as parasites.
Now to blame the FTO’s is just pure naivety! Just look at your club’s rate card and you will see that the difference between wet hire and instruction is as little as £8 per hour! No huge profiteering there!
I really believe that a CPL should be a requirement for an instructor, and thankfully most FTO’s agree. A CPL involves yet another layer of training (25hrs) with a very senior instructor. Now that has got to improve your skills beyond simply hour building.
And that useless ATPL theory exam??. Well my friends, once you have done them, (and yes a small proportion of it is pointless), you will look back at your PPL manuals and be amazed at how they now look like a child’s ‘my first book about aeroplanes’.
This added in-depth knowledge and training can only help when teaching students the basics and assisting with PPL ground exams etc.
This forum is where members give support and assistance along the long and costly route towards a career in aviation. The first rung on the ladder is often instructing. It costs a lot to step on that rung and if amateurs try to crowd it and take away the ability for some to even earn a few quid, then the should keep their comments off this forum or tempers will fray.
Crash and co, if you wish to wind us up and belittle the struggle to earn a buck then piss off to Charlie Alphas or better still try out some of your comments on the Instructors forum!!
It is understandable that those with so much at stake can become just a 'little' rattled by the comments here from some no doubt well intentioned ‘hobby’ pilots.
Fact is, that for would -be career pilots it’s bloody tough going, as Luke has so eloquently described.
There are many instructors who would like to stay instructors and progress that as a career. Sadly that for most is not an option for financial reasons. So please don’t brand so called hour building instructors as parasites.
Now to blame the FTO’s is just pure naivety! Just look at your club’s rate card and you will see that the difference between wet hire and instruction is as little as £8 per hour! No huge profiteering there!
I really believe that a CPL should be a requirement for an instructor, and thankfully most FTO’s agree. A CPL involves yet another layer of training (25hrs) with a very senior instructor. Now that has got to improve your skills beyond simply hour building.
And that useless ATPL theory exam??. Well my friends, once you have done them, (and yes a small proportion of it is pointless), you will look back at your PPL manuals and be amazed at how they now look like a child’s ‘my first book about aeroplanes’.
This added in-depth knowledge and training can only help when teaching students the basics and assisting with PPL ground exams etc.
This forum is where members give support and assistance along the long and costly route towards a career in aviation. The first rung on the ladder is often instructing. It costs a lot to step on that rung and if amateurs try to crowd it and take away the ability for some to even earn a few quid, then the should keep their comments off this forum or tempers will fray.
Crash and co, if you wish to wind us up and belittle the struggle to earn a buck then piss off to Charlie Alphas or better still try out some of your comments on the Instructors forum!!
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No matter how much people argue,the simple fact is that to Instruct you need a CPL.JAR says so.....Instructing on the PPL with ATPL credits!!!..I thought they were only valid for 36mths,so surely a PPL would have to do a CPL/IR.
Our system is not perfect,I`m sure that if the pay was better a lot more people would be career Intsructors....might mean the airlines have to put their hands in their pockets to find some pilots then.
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
Our system is not perfect,I`m sure that if the pay was better a lot more people would be career Intsructors....might mean the airlines have to put their hands in their pockets to find some pilots then.
------------------
GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Delta,
I think you are wrong.
My understanding of the ever changing JAR regs (CAA's version) is that the CAA will allow you to teach with a PPL and a FI(R). You can however not be paid.
You are right, the 36 month rule does apply but you would be nuts not to do a CPL once you have done your ATPL exams...like crash claims to have done. You will also have to start your IR withn the six month period...or its back to school for many of the 14 sujects and they would be the new exams at that.
Yes! more pay for instructors!!! but where does it come from? I don't think the market will pay much more to learn to fly. The £100 per hour barrier has been broken in some schools, and that sound and feels lke a lot of money!...in fact it IS a lot of money!
The FTO's do not have the ability to pay more and the NPPL can't be any cheaper per hour, but might encourage more people in 'cos it's less hours (now there a really safe idea!) So, where does the extra cash come from?
All ideas welcome
I think you are wrong.
My understanding of the ever changing JAR regs (CAA's version) is that the CAA will allow you to teach with a PPL and a FI(R). You can however not be paid.You are right, the 36 month rule does apply but you would be nuts not to do a CPL once you have done your ATPL exams...like crash claims to have done. You will also have to start your IR withn the six month period...or its back to school for many of the 14 sujects and they would be the new exams at that.
Yes! more pay for instructors!!! but where does it come from? I don't think the market will pay much more to learn to fly. The £100 per hour barrier has been broken in some schools, and that sound and feels lke a lot of money!...in fact it IS a lot of money!
The FTO's do not have the ability to pay more and the NPPL can't be any cheaper per hour, but might encourage more people in 'cos it's less hours (now there a really safe idea!) So, where does the extra cash come from?
All ideas welcome
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have been instructing for a couple of years until three weeks ago when I decided I had had enough for the time being, so am getting my MEIR current with a view to airline flying.
Don't get me wrong, I WANT to be an Instructor. I initially wanted to be a schoolteacher but Mum said "don't be stupid, you'd get much more money being a pilot" thanks mum.
I don't however want to struggle financially, never be able to ask someone out and pay for their meal as well as mine, or send them flowers, or buy a TV or house etc.
So I have decided to go for the money for the next few years (read airlines or steps towards airlines) and collect stories, dosh and chickies and then go back and run a flying school that gives people the fun of flying and gives aspiring airline pilots their first steps like I got mine.
What does that make me? A money-grubbing hour builder? A career instructor? A dreamer? When I instruct I do the best I can like justwannafly. When on a charter, I give the best service I can short of pulling out a thermos full of coffee mid-flight and providing a toilet half an hour of seatbelt pressure later. There are only two reasons I am moving on from instructing. One is to get stories because I found the best instructors I had were the ones who had done the work, not just been teaching for ages. The other is to get some money and look after myself, otherwise I can't look after other people the way I want to.
Of those reasons, I was getting stories at my previous job, but not money. I have found that if you frame a question properly it answers itself, so the decision was made.
As for flying for free, I wouldn't if it was in a commercial place. I did a week at an ATC navigation course and thoroughly enjoyed it. Although I missed out on a perfectly fine week of paid flying at home
I still enjoyed teaching keen young minds the fundamentals of navigation. And for so-called 'unpaid' flying the accommodation was free and I still reckon you can't beat military cooking (or bar prices) in the Officers' Mess!
Just one other thing to add, if you are thinking of flying for airlines and instructing on weekends (and getting paid) you'd better make sure your rostering people know about it because flying for hire or reward relates to the pilot in all their jobs. As far as I am aware, a pilot cannot claim that Job A does not have any relation to their fatigue levels in Job B. So part-timing may affect your breaks.
You go away for one week, and an eight-pager comes from nowhere. Sheesh. Good thread though!
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
Don't get me wrong, I WANT to be an Instructor. I initially wanted to be a schoolteacher but Mum said "don't be stupid, you'd get much more money being a pilot" thanks mum.
I don't however want to struggle financially, never be able to ask someone out and pay for their meal as well as mine, or send them flowers, or buy a TV or house etc.
So I have decided to go for the money for the next few years (read airlines or steps towards airlines) and collect stories, dosh and chickies
and then go back and run a flying school that gives people the fun of flying and gives aspiring airline pilots their first steps like I got mine.What does that make me? A money-grubbing hour builder? A career instructor? A dreamer? When I instruct I do the best I can like justwannafly. When on a charter, I give the best service I can short of pulling out a thermos full of coffee mid-flight and providing a toilet half an hour of seatbelt pressure later. There are only two reasons I am moving on from instructing. One is to get stories because I found the best instructors I had were the ones who had done the work, not just been teaching for ages. The other is to get some money and look after myself, otherwise I can't look after other people the way I want to.
Of those reasons, I was getting stories at my previous job, but not money. I have found that if you frame a question properly it answers itself, so the decision was made.
As for flying for free, I wouldn't if it was in a commercial place. I did a week at an ATC navigation course and thoroughly enjoyed it. Although I missed out on a perfectly fine week of paid flying at home
I still enjoyed teaching keen young minds the fundamentals of navigation. And for so-called 'unpaid' flying the accommodation was free and I still reckon you can't beat military cooking (or bar prices) in the Officers' Mess!Just one other thing to add, if you are thinking of flying for airlines and instructing on weekends (and getting paid) you'd better make sure your rostering people know about it because flying for hire or reward relates to the pilot in all their jobs. As far as I am aware, a pilot cannot claim that Job A does not have any relation to their fatigue levels in Job B. So part-timing may affect your breaks.
You go away for one week, and an eight-pager comes from nowhere. Sheesh. Good thread though!
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Clear Prop,
Getting really confused now....Have I got this right? ....On passing the ATPL writtens I have 36mths to complete a CPL/IR,but I must start IR within 6 mths of finishing writtens or sit another exam???
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
Getting really confused now....Have I got this right? ....On passing the ATPL writtens I have 36mths to complete a CPL/IR,but I must start IR within 6 mths of finishing writtens or sit another exam???
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
Guest
Posts: n/a
OOPS! 
Sorry for the confusion Delta.
NO! you DO NOT need to start your IR within 6 months of passing your final written exam...thank goodness!!!
What I meant to say, and failed, was that in my opinion, you should start your IR at least 6 months before the END of the 36 month period following your exams. This is in order that you can fit your IR into the timescale.
Now I have to say that this is only my understanding of the deadline, and I would also welcome clarification.
Sorry again for the confusion
[This message has been edited by clear prop!!! (edited 30 May 2001).]
Sorry for the confusion Delta.
NO! you DO NOT need to start your IR within 6 months of passing your final written exam...thank goodness!!!
What I meant to say, and failed, was that in my opinion, you should start your IR at least 6 months before the END of the 36 month period following your exams. This is in order that you can fit your IR into the timescale.
Now I have to say that this is only my understanding of the deadline, and I would also welcome clarification.
Sorry again for the confusion
[This message has been edited by clear prop!!! (edited 30 May 2001).]
