So you want to be an instructor?
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm only a wannabe at the moment, but I do realise that instructors are underpaid for what they do and that it's a hard enough way to make a living as it is.
The thing is, if you're doing a job that enough people are willing to do for free then you need to do one of two things:
a) Find another job (Not recommended)
b) Offer something that the freeby instructors cannot. If you are better qualified, then this should be the case anyway.
It's just economics - supply and demand etc. You can't just say "You can't do that - that's cheating" because things just are the way they are, and it's not going to help anybody complaining about it.
The sad fact is that there are more people willing to sell their cat and fly for food than there are jobs for them. I'm sure we have all wished at one time or another that everybody else would just p*ss off and find another job, but it ain't gonna happen, so the prize will just go to the highest (or lowest) bidder.
The sickening thing is not the people who are willing to fly for nothing, or for a pittance - it's the people who get the airline sponsorships (and only the small minority of them) who are doing it for the money and prestige rather than for the flying. That I can't relate to.
Pie
The thing is, if you're doing a job that enough people are willing to do for free then you need to do one of two things:
a) Find another job (Not recommended)
b) Offer something that the freeby instructors cannot. If you are better qualified, then this should be the case anyway.
It's just economics - supply and demand etc. You can't just say "You can't do that - that's cheating" because things just are the way they are, and it's not going to help anybody complaining about it.
The sad fact is that there are more people willing to sell their cat and fly for food than there are jobs for them. I'm sure we have all wished at one time or another that everybody else would just p*ss off and find another job, but it ain't gonna happen, so the prize will just go to the highest (or lowest) bidder.
The sickening thing is not the people who are willing to fly for nothing, or for a pittance - it's the people who get the airline sponsorships (and only the small minority of them) who are doing it for the money and prestige rather than for the flying. That I can't relate to.
Pie
Guest
Posts: n/a
Wee Weasley,
I agree with some of your comments however:
Flying is a hard livelihood but most flying
instructors are only in the job temporary
until moving on to an airline, hence some of them are not particularly interested in their students. I, on the other hand would be grateful for the chance to teach people to fly.
There should be other ways for guys like me to instruct, who do not have the time to study for meaningless JAA theory exams.
I didn't expect this reaction when I initially posed the question, I could understand it if I was offering to fly a 747
for free, instead of someone earning £60,000
a year. As it is instructors only earn about £5 an hour so what's the problem???
I agree with some of your comments however:
Flying is a hard livelihood but most flying
instructors are only in the job temporary
until moving on to an airline, hence some of them are not particularly interested in their students. I, on the other hand would be grateful for the chance to teach people to fly.
There should be other ways for guys like me to instruct, who do not have the time to study for meaningless JAA theory exams.
I didn't expect this reaction when I initially posed the question, I could understand it if I was offering to fly a 747
for free, instead of someone earning £60,000
a year. As it is instructors only earn about £5 an hour so what's the problem???
Guest
Posts: n/a
1.) Yup a lot of FI's are in the job as a means to bigger and better things. Its always been and always will be that way. Only a minority are jaded enough to give poor service to their students. DO NOT tar people with an 18ft brush. There are, for example, plenty of jaded and sloppy 'career' flying instructors out there who - frankly - weren't suitable for other flying. I know, I was taught by one of them once.
2.) There is another way for you to instruct without taking the onerous exams. Its called teaching privately for no remuneration. Do this and find a way of not depriving another man of his livelihood. Anyway - the atmosphere at work will not be very nice if you are undercutting your colleagues...
3.) Frankly your comments with regard to there being a fuss because its not 747 flying we are talking about are naive and ill-considered. A mans livelihood is just that. Regardless. Some people really are living off that £5 hr living in caravens around the backs of hangars etc. etc. Don't take it off them. Fly for free - insist the school charge the student at the standard rate - insist that the extra profit go to the benefit of the FI workforce. Everyones happy.
Good luck,
WWW
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 18 May 2001).]
2.) There is another way for you to instruct without taking the onerous exams. Its called teaching privately for no remuneration. Do this and find a way of not depriving another man of his livelihood. Anyway - the atmosphere at work will not be very nice if you are undercutting your colleagues...
3.) Frankly your comments with regard to there being a fuss because its not 747 flying we are talking about are naive and ill-considered. A mans livelihood is just that. Regardless. Some people really are living off that £5 hr living in caravens around the backs of hangars etc. etc. Don't take it off them. Fly for free - insist the school charge the student at the standard rate - insist that the extra profit go to the benefit of the FI workforce. Everyones happy.
Good luck,
WWW
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 18 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Only been at two schools in the 12mths that I have been flying,(so I must be one of those !!!!ty 40hrs PPL`s).The first school where I learnt to fly had two full time Instructors,one with 20000+ hrs instructing and the other with 7000+ and atpl.Both career instructors.They also had a part time Instructor self funding his way to the airlines.His standard of instruction was just as good as the full time guys.
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well well......
This thread has not gone in the direction I thought it would.
For the record I enjoy instructing enormously and consider it my professional duty to give my student nothing but the best I can. This does not mean though that I am over the moon with the very low payscales (that is another subject in itself!).
Yes I and many others here are trying to build hours on our way to an airline job. I would be very happy to instruct as a career instructor but I can not afford to do so at the moment.
Regarding the matter of unpaid instruction this is clearly a very emotive subject. I do like WWW's suggestions though.
How about this for a radical thought, teach unpaid by all means but give the money you would have earned to the paid instructors! (I could live with that!)
Sunny side up dudes
JWF
This thread has not gone in the direction I thought it would.
For the record I enjoy instructing enormously and consider it my professional duty to give my student nothing but the best I can. This does not mean though that I am over the moon with the very low payscales (that is another subject in itself!).
Yes I and many others here are trying to build hours on our way to an airline job. I would be very happy to instruct as a career instructor but I can not afford to do so at the moment.
Regarding the matter of unpaid instruction this is clearly a very emotive subject. I do like WWW's suggestions though.
How about this for a radical thought, teach unpaid by all means but give the money you would have earned to the paid instructors! (I could live with that!)
Sunny side up dudes
JWF
Guest
Posts: n/a
Temper temper Crash. Let's not get personal here ...
I hold professional flying qualifications, issued by two of the most stringent licencing authorities on earth. I strongly suggest you button it about who is good enough for whose airline, at least until you have managed to obtain ANY professional flying licence!
As far as unpaid instructing is concerned, neither I or anyone else in here are forming a 'lynch mob' against you. It's just that I love this business enough to wish to make a career out of it, and I fully intend to protect my right to do so. If people who are more fortunate financially than myself come along, start moonlighting and in the process destroy one of the few remaining legitimate ways for people like me to pursue their dreams, I'm going to get my hackles up very quickly.
Now, it really breaks my heart to read that a busy man like yourself 'does not have the time to study for meaningless things like aviation theory exams'!
I mean, they really are taking the piss, to expect flying instructors to to learn silly little things like basic knowledge of met, flight planning, navigation, aviation law etc, when they could be at home polishing the Jag! Honestly man, I'm much happier with you out of my piece of sky if that's your attitude, and I'm sure the search and rescue boys and girls who scrape people off hillsides every week would wholeheartedly agree.
Fortunately the JAA agree with my sentiments, and have now very sensibly passed a law making it difficult for amateurs and part time pilots to get involved in flight instruction. Leave it to the professionals who can actually take the time to do the job properly, Crash, your heart's obviously not in it ...
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PS - As for that little 'sod off to your home country' barb. I hope you realize, sir, that not more than a few hundred miles from where you sit are the rotting bodies of several of my immediate family, who recently gave their lives in defense of this island. They died in Spitfires, Lancasters, tanks, filthy holes in the ground - I don't doubt they would do the same thing again tomorrow, if Britain needed us again. I do feel I have just the slightest bit of entitlement to walk on British soil without shame. Who's really the one being 'unjust and child like' here, I wonder? Some people have really short memories ...
[This message has been edited by Luke SkyToddler (edited 19 May 2001).]
I hold professional flying qualifications, issued by two of the most stringent licencing authorities on earth. I strongly suggest you button it about who is good enough for whose airline, at least until you have managed to obtain ANY professional flying licence!
As far as unpaid instructing is concerned, neither I or anyone else in here are forming a 'lynch mob' against you. It's just that I love this business enough to wish to make a career out of it, and I fully intend to protect my right to do so. If people who are more fortunate financially than myself come along, start moonlighting and in the process destroy one of the few remaining legitimate ways for people like me to pursue their dreams, I'm going to get my hackles up very quickly.
Now, it really breaks my heart to read that a busy man like yourself 'does not have the time to study for meaningless things like aviation theory exams'!
I mean, they really are taking the piss, to expect flying instructors to to learn silly little things like basic knowledge of met, flight planning, navigation, aviation law etc, when they could be at home polishing the Jag! Honestly man, I'm much happier with you out of my piece of sky if that's your attitude, and I'm sure the search and rescue boys and girls who scrape people off hillsides every week would wholeheartedly agree.Fortunately the JAA agree with my sentiments, and have now very sensibly passed a law making it difficult for amateurs and part time pilots to get involved in flight instruction. Leave it to the professionals who can actually take the time to do the job properly, Crash, your heart's obviously not in it ...
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PS - As for that little 'sod off to your home country' barb. I hope you realize, sir, that not more than a few hundred miles from where you sit are the rotting bodies of several of my immediate family, who recently gave their lives in defense of this island. They died in Spitfires, Lancasters, tanks, filthy holes in the ground - I don't doubt they would do the same thing again tomorrow, if Britain needed us again. I do feel I have just the slightest bit of entitlement to walk on British soil without shame. Who's really the one being 'unjust and child like' here, I wonder? Some people have really short memories ...
[This message has been edited by Luke SkyToddler (edited 19 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm not actually a wannabe, I just come here to offer a little encouragement once in a while.
Back in the days when I had 150 hrs, enough to be an instructor, I had flown 12 types of aeroplane and coming to grips with aerobatics and formation flying. The thought of becoming an instructor was far from my mind; I knew so little myself.
Since then, I have had dicussions with 1000 hr instructors as to whether it is the throttle or the stick which controls the speed of an aircraft and how a constant speed unit works amongst other topics.
Needless to say, my view of the young, stepping-stone instructors may be a little jaded.
As Skytoddler says he loves the business enough to want to make his career of it and fight to protect his right to do so.
I wonder if he has ever considered the right of people who have other day jobs to pass on their experience and keep the already painfully high cost of private flying for the fun of it down.
Are the neggies out there soon going to insist that all airline pilots give up instructing so the new boys can get a look in? The blind leading the blind.
I'm not saying I've got the solution but you lot do come across as being a bit self-serving.
Now I'm settled with a job, I've started to think about getting an instructors rating.
Are you all suggesting that the customer should fly with a new boy, ink hardly dry on his rating rather than an experienced instructor who flies a variety of aircraft in various disciplines?
Back in the days when I had 150 hrs, enough to be an instructor, I had flown 12 types of aeroplane and coming to grips with aerobatics and formation flying. The thought of becoming an instructor was far from my mind; I knew so little myself.
Since then, I have had dicussions with 1000 hr instructors as to whether it is the throttle or the stick which controls the speed of an aircraft and how a constant speed unit works amongst other topics.
Needless to say, my view of the young, stepping-stone instructors may be a little jaded.
As Skytoddler says he loves the business enough to want to make his career of it and fight to protect his right to do so.
I wonder if he has ever considered the right of people who have other day jobs to pass on their experience and keep the already painfully high cost of private flying for the fun of it down.
Are the neggies out there soon going to insist that all airline pilots give up instructing so the new boys can get a look in? The blind leading the blind.
I'm not saying I've got the solution but you lot do come across as being a bit self-serving.
Now I'm settled with a job, I've started to think about getting an instructors rating.
Are you all suggesting that the customer should fly with a new boy, ink hardly dry on his rating rather than an experienced instructor who flies a variety of aircraft in various disciplines?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Skytoddler,
It's YOU who is getting personal, don't bring
"my grandpa fought in the war" into this cos
we aint talking about world war two. Besides,
200 or so years ago did we not send YOUR ancestors away from the U.K. in a boat full
of murderers, rapists and thiefs....
Just a thought..
It's YOU who is getting personal, don't bring
"my grandpa fought in the war" into this cos
we aint talking about world war two. Besides,
200 or so years ago did we not send YOUR ancestors away from the U.K. in a boat full
of murderers, rapists and thiefs....
Just a thought..
Guest
Posts: n/a
Shock! Horror! UK airports terrorized by roving gangs of raping, pillaging and looting 'down under' pilots! Suspects can be recognized by their shifty criminal features, multiple scars from years of street fighting, and a loud, braying donkey like accent 
I felt I had a valid point to make re: unpaid instructing, it was you who brought my nationality into it. If you come in here all uppity and start talking like an east London cabbie or a football lout, you can expect some mud to be slung back at you, so stop crying.
Case in point: If you actually got off your ass and sat your ATPLs instead of whinging about job thieves, you might have learned about the basic geographical difference between NEW ZEALAND and AUSTRALIA, there's only about as much distance between the two as, ooohhh, London and Siberia? A bit of basic knowledge of 'o' level history might help you there as well. But hey, ignorance is bliss, always has been where bigots are concerned!
In my years on this forum I've found that engaging in dialogue with people like yourself (fortunately there's only a few) is like beating your head against a brick wall, you just talk round in circles. I won't be engaging in this discussion again unless it returns to something more interesting.
Good day to you ... MAATE
I felt I had a valid point to make re: unpaid instructing, it was you who brought my nationality into it. If you come in here all uppity and start talking like an east London cabbie or a football lout, you can expect some mud to be slung back at you, so stop crying.
Case in point: If you actually got off your ass and sat your ATPLs instead of whinging about job thieves, you might have learned about the basic geographical difference between NEW ZEALAND and AUSTRALIA, there's only about as much distance between the two as, ooohhh, London and Siberia? A bit of basic knowledge of 'o' level history might help you there as well. But hey, ignorance is bliss, always has been where bigots are concerned!
In my years on this forum I've found that engaging in dialogue with people like yourself (fortunately there's only a few) is like beating your head against a brick wall, you just talk round in circles. I won't be engaging in this discussion again unless it returns to something more interesting.
Good day to you ... MAATE
Guest
Posts: n/a
The percentage that a FI gets on a PPL
training flight is very low.
10% -> 20%
- Not a great deal. A good instructor can
save student money by getting them to standard more quickly. Most new students are shocked that instructors get paid so little in my experience ...
Crash
Imagine going to the barber to have your
tooth pulled - Its quite ridiculous that
Dentists need 5 years of training isnt it?
Its all in the wrist action with a pair of pliers after all ..
Training who needs it ..
training flight is very low.
10% -> 20%
- Not a great deal. A good instructor can
save student money by getting them to standard more quickly. Most new students are shocked that instructors get paid so little in my experience ...
Crash
Imagine going to the barber to have your
tooth pulled - Its quite ridiculous that
Dentists need 5 years of training isnt it?
Its all in the wrist action with a pair of pliers after all ..
Training who needs it ..
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 38
From: Australia
Perhaps we should all just take Crash's posts for the wind up they must surely be. I can't believe anyone could be that naive, and kiwi bashing isn't funny either.
So just take it for the rubbish it is and ignore it.
So just take it for the rubbish it is and ignore it.
Guest
Posts: n/a
OOhhh I say, how rude is everyone being to me
sniff sniff!
Tell me do they still teach the bull!!!! about Decca and Omega in the new JAA Exams??
How about the realllly useful plotting Nav exam??
Or maybe the incredibly useful snap your pencil morse code exam, played on audio tape
in a P.E. hall to 40 or so budding prof pilots, all for an inflated fee?
Or what about Human Performance ? Captain turns up pissed for his flight what do you do? Answer: Deck Him!
Having passed the old style exams many moons ago, I have to say it was a waste of time and money studying for them. I have enjoyed winding you lot up, although it was a serious
question that I posed at first which I was asked to find out. I think that having to pass these exams to instruct does not make you a better instructor, surely the instructor course and a PPL is sufficient.
It used to be.....
sniff sniff!
Tell me do they still teach the bull!!!! about Decca and Omega in the new JAA Exams??
How about the realllly useful plotting Nav exam??
Or maybe the incredibly useful snap your pencil morse code exam, played on audio tape
in a P.E. hall to 40 or so budding prof pilots, all for an inflated fee?
Or what about Human Performance ? Captain turns up pissed for his flight what do you do? Answer: Deck Him!
Having passed the old style exams many moons ago, I have to say it was a waste of time and money studying for them. I have enjoyed winding you lot up, although it was a serious
question that I posed at first which I was asked to find out. I think that having to pass these exams to instruct does not make you a better instructor, surely the instructor course and a PPL is sufficient.
It used to be.....
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crash...
So you went to all the time trouble and expence to sit and pass thos bul!!!! CAA ATPL exams and didn't go on to do what was then a relativly inexpensive BCPL???
Thank god you didn't start to study to become a doctor, learn all that trivia at the start of your course, give up before the important bits, then come back and wan't to be an unpaid medic!
So you went to all the time trouble and expence to sit and pass thos bul!!!! CAA ATPL exams and didn't go on to do what was then a relativly inexpensive BCPL???
Thank god you didn't start to study to become a doctor, learn all that trivia at the start of your course, give up before the important bits, then come back and wan't to be an unpaid medic!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Another day, another newbie with an axe to grind arrives and promptly pisses off all the Wannabe regulars with arrogant posts.
Welcome to pprune, Crash Barrier. Like wine, I hope that your posts will improve with age. I'm waiting for them to be better than the Quik Save £1 a bottle Bulgarian blend that you're churning out at the moment.
Welcome to pprune, Crash Barrier. Like wine, I hope that your posts will improve with age. I'm waiting for them to be better than the Quik Save £1 a bottle Bulgarian blend that you're churning out at the moment.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crash, you're not doing yourself, or all the other UK instructor's any favours with your ****ing crap rantings.
Oz & Kiwi pilots are trained to the same standards' as you guys.
Frustrated AFI? Who'd be told he'd be in the RH at 750hrs ?!!
The Dog
Oz & Kiwi pilots are trained to the same standards' as you guys.
Frustrated AFI? Who'd be told he'd be in the RH at 750hrs ?!!
The Dog
Guest
Posts: n/a
I was thinking of instructing at weekends (for minimal £) - although I would sit all the necessary exams first.
Serious question - Would this really p*ss off you full time instructors as much as this forum indicates, (I have nothing against Oz or Kiwi pilots if that makes a difference).
Judging by some of the posts, if I suggested this at my local flying school the only thing I’d be doing at weekends would be learning how to walk again on my broken legs.
Serious question - Would this really p*ss off you full time instructors as much as this forum indicates, (I have nothing against Oz or Kiwi pilots if that makes a difference).
Judging by some of the posts, if I suggested this at my local flying school the only thing I’d be doing at weekends would be learning how to walk again on my broken legs.