So you want to be an instructor?
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Firstly, ALL of you are flying for fun, or at least because you want to fly. You must be. If you weren't, you'd get another career that didn't cost so much to qualify for, and that paid better on at least the lower rungs of the ladder.
Second, there ARE people in other occupations who work unpaid. This is certainly the case in a number of the so called "helping professions", where volunteers (often well qualified ones) work alongside those who are paid. I'm a writer, and far too many people write because they're dying to see their name in print. Doesn't help me at all - but I'm not going to moan about it. This is not unique to flying instruction. No-one has a right to demand that others work for money, or that the world owes them a living.
The reason you object to unpaid instructors is because this is an overcrowded profession. That's why the pay for instructors can be so low. There are too many people who want to fly. Too many of us love flying. Are you surprised?
So quit moaning about those who want to instruct for free. After all, are YOU worried about the career prospects of others in aviation. If you get a job, will you worry about the people who've been passed over so that you can have that job? I don't think so. None of us are that unselfish. So why are you demanding that Crash should be?
But finally, as a wannabe helicopter instructor (but I wannabe paid please!), presently in the middle of the CPL exams, I don't agree that they're a waste of time. A lot of the stuff is, yes, but much of it is very useful. Decca and Omega have gone, and I believe Morse is going too, not sure. I'm finding them as hard as everyone told me they would be, but not useless.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird (edited 23 May 2001).]
Second, there ARE people in other occupations who work unpaid. This is certainly the case in a number of the so called "helping professions", where volunteers (often well qualified ones) work alongside those who are paid. I'm a writer, and far too many people write because they're dying to see their name in print. Doesn't help me at all - but I'm not going to moan about it. This is not unique to flying instruction. No-one has a right to demand that others work for money, or that the world owes them a living.
The reason you object to unpaid instructors is because this is an overcrowded profession. That's why the pay for instructors can be so low. There are too many people who want to fly. Too many of us love flying. Are you surprised?
So quit moaning about those who want to instruct for free. After all, are YOU worried about the career prospects of others in aviation. If you get a job, will you worry about the people who've been passed over so that you can have that job? I don't think so. None of us are that unselfish. So why are you demanding that Crash should be?
But finally, as a wannabe helicopter instructor (but I wannabe paid please!), presently in the middle of the CPL exams, I don't agree that they're a waste of time. A lot of the stuff is, yes, but much of it is very useful. Decca and Omega have gone, and I believe Morse is going too, not sure. I'm finding them as hard as everyone told me they would be, but not useless.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird (edited 23 May 2001).]
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englishal:
You wre doing just fine up untill your 2nd last paragraph!!
Go to private flying forum ..do not pass go ... do not collect £200
This is a forum where 99% of us have slogged our guts out sold our souls to the devil to make things work. I doubt that there is a single instructor (or would be instructor)here with a silver spoon in their mouth right now, and you comments along those lines stink!
You no doubt have a well paid job as a result of a degree and student loan paid for by the tax payer. Give us a break!!! This is tough enough without well intentioned amatures getting in the way.
You wre doing just fine up untill your 2nd last paragraph!!
Go to private flying forum ..do not pass go ... do not collect £200
This is a forum where 99% of us have slogged our guts out sold our souls to the devil to make things work. I doubt that there is a single instructor (or would be instructor)here with a silver spoon in their mouth right now, and you comments along those lines stink!
You no doubt have a well paid job as a result of a degree and student loan paid for by the tax payer. Give us a break!!! This is tough enough without well intentioned amatures getting in the way.
Guest
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Been watching this for a while now, and felt a compulsion to put my to bits in, earlier I suggested by nice to crash, crash then comes out with some ignorant rantings, and all hell breaks loose. I don’t thinks it’s very constructive to pprune at all.
Firstly lets look at things from a different perspective. What are you trying to achieve by becoming an instructor? A good safe student. Achieved by imparting a good clear knowledge, and suitable flying skills.
To give a PPL sufficient knowledge, surely it must be provided by a relative ‘expert’ to teach this. Not just someone else whose read Trevor Thom a while ago and had a fair amount of personal experience. Some form of formal training and testing can only achieve this. An entirely separate FI knowledge test is impractical and would be not far from the CPL (with all its useless nonsense). IMHO, the CPL minimum knowledge can only be a good thing.
People have made the valid pint that wannabie-airline pilots are only doing it for the hours, true, but most are good enough to realise where they are at that point in time and do a good job, sure the student is being used for hours, but if their a good instructor the student wont know it and there will be not difference. Besides they have shown themselves in a battery of test to be proficient and safe pilots. We all know the difference between mini-cabs and black taxis, so is it worth saving a few pounds getting someone with less credentials?
If I turn up at anyone’s Job, and just did it on Tuesday and Thursday for fun to pass the time, meaning you weren’t getting paid, you’d be pissed, you’ve work hard to achieve your position, and me, under trained and possibly unfocused barging in would be hard to swallow. Likewise I have worked hard to achieve my position in my chosen profession. All these people complaining ‘its to expensive’ ‘if I’d started earlier’ or ‘its always been my dream’. These aren’t valid reasons that give you the right to become a fully-fledged flying instructor. I’ve always wanted to be a racing driver, I cant afford a porche, and haven’t been go-carting since seven, because it was more than my pocket money, o woes me.
If you really want to pass on your knowledge for free and when suits you, why don’t you do something more constructive than rant away here. Try and form some sort of mentor or buddy scheme at your local club, share flights and try new things. You won’t be stepping on any ‘professionals’ toes and everyone should get more out of flying.
BTW, morse is no longer required in the exams, but is for flying.
Firstly lets look at things from a different perspective. What are you trying to achieve by becoming an instructor? A good safe student. Achieved by imparting a good clear knowledge, and suitable flying skills.
To give a PPL sufficient knowledge, surely it must be provided by a relative ‘expert’ to teach this. Not just someone else whose read Trevor Thom a while ago and had a fair amount of personal experience. Some form of formal training and testing can only achieve this. An entirely separate FI knowledge test is impractical and would be not far from the CPL (with all its useless nonsense). IMHO, the CPL minimum knowledge can only be a good thing.
People have made the valid pint that wannabie-airline pilots are only doing it for the hours, true, but most are good enough to realise where they are at that point in time and do a good job, sure the student is being used for hours, but if their a good instructor the student wont know it and there will be not difference. Besides they have shown themselves in a battery of test to be proficient and safe pilots. We all know the difference between mini-cabs and black taxis, so is it worth saving a few pounds getting someone with less credentials?
If I turn up at anyone’s Job, and just did it on Tuesday and Thursday for fun to pass the time, meaning you weren’t getting paid, you’d be pissed, you’ve work hard to achieve your position, and me, under trained and possibly unfocused barging in would be hard to swallow. Likewise I have worked hard to achieve my position in my chosen profession. All these people complaining ‘its to expensive’ ‘if I’d started earlier’ or ‘its always been my dream’. These aren’t valid reasons that give you the right to become a fully-fledged flying instructor. I’ve always wanted to be a racing driver, I cant afford a porche, and haven’t been go-carting since seven, because it was more than my pocket money, o woes me.
If you really want to pass on your knowledge for free and when suits you, why don’t you do something more constructive than rant away here. Try and form some sort of mentor or buddy scheme at your local club, share flights and try new things. You won’t be stepping on any ‘professionals’ toes and everyone should get more out of flying.
BTW, morse is no longer required in the exams, but is for flying.
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Hey, calm down Clear Prop, I wasn't having a go at you ! I was mearly pointing out that I couldn't afford to be a prof pilot when I was younger, but I probably can now. Ok there are a few who do have a siver spoon in their mouth...good luck to them I say....and there are those who have slogged it out, like me who has slogged it out for the past 10 years, all be it not as a pilot. But I wannabe a pilot now, and why shouldn't I??
Relax and chill out......
Relax and chill out......
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When throwing a paddy, could everybody please make it clear whether they are arguing against instructors being unqualified (fair enough) or just unpaid. There is a difference, and I assume that since an FI rating costs roughly the same as a CPL course, then the latter of those points is hardly valid. If the CAA say you're competent to instruct, then either they're being slack, or you're competent.
That brings us purely to the question of paid or unpaid (A personal choice, I would have thought, as long as you are qualified). Whatever points you may raise about this, selfish or otherwise (or valid or otherwise), please don't cloud the issue by talking about qualifications, because it's not relevant to the same extent.
That brings us purely to the question of paid or unpaid (A personal choice, I would have thought, as long as you are qualified). Whatever points you may raise about this, selfish or otherwise (or valid or otherwise), please don't cloud the issue by talking about qualifications, because it's not relevant to the same extent.
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Qualified, yes CPLgroundschool and all.
Unpaid? It could be argues it is not good sence to have unpaid instructors. wages are a realivly small proportion of the flight for the operator. would the ~doing it for the love~ be easily persuaded to fly when they didn't really want to? I doubt it. they'd cherrypick the work at the weekends, possibly not even sticking with a studnet throughout their coarse and leave the full time ~doing it for a job~ FI's to look for scraps when the 'whenevers' go to THEIR source of income.
Result.
Weekend FI, not as current as the day-in-day-out FI's. training weekend pilots to bash the circuit as it can only be bashed on a weekend. Unhappy studnets that their instructor had to pull out because of something more pressing. low moral instructors not getting a continuity of work, and f~cking of to a school that accepts if you want total quality coverage, with FOCUSED workers, taking the low cost option may not be best.
full time flying instructors do it best, 'cause its their job. not their pastime
stealling candies from babies springs to mind. As I've said before, if your in a cushy job, love flying, add to the club, arrange fly-ins/outs, buddy lists, mentorships. not take away a 'profsionals' job.
FYI, I had a ~whenever~ once, came along, usuall getting to know each others patter flight, differnt-way this, different-way that. okay flight... never saw him again. not bad, just not as effective a lesson if I had a full time instructor.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 23 May 2001).]
Unpaid? It could be argues it is not good sence to have unpaid instructors. wages are a realivly small proportion of the flight for the operator. would the ~doing it for the love~ be easily persuaded to fly when they didn't really want to? I doubt it. they'd cherrypick the work at the weekends, possibly not even sticking with a studnet throughout their coarse and leave the full time ~doing it for a job~ FI's to look for scraps when the 'whenevers' go to THEIR source of income.
Result.
Weekend FI, not as current as the day-in-day-out FI's. training weekend pilots to bash the circuit as it can only be bashed on a weekend. Unhappy studnets that their instructor had to pull out because of something more pressing. low moral instructors not getting a continuity of work, and f~cking of to a school that accepts if you want total quality coverage, with FOCUSED workers, taking the low cost option may not be best.
full time flying instructors do it best, 'cause its their job. not their pastime
stealling candies from babies springs to mind. As I've said before, if your in a cushy job, love flying, add to the club, arrange fly-ins/outs, buddy lists, mentorships. not take away a 'profsionals' job.
FYI, I had a ~whenever~ once, came along, usuall getting to know each others patter flight, differnt-way this, different-way that. okay flight... never saw him again. not bad, just not as effective a lesson if I had a full time instructor.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 23 May 2001).]
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Wouldn't having unpaid PPL FI's , benefit everyone ?
a) A school who 'employs' a part time QUALIFIED PPL FI to assist the other instructors can make more profit and pass this on to the paid instructors
b) A part time UNPAID BUT QUALIFIED FI can cover when the other instructors want a day off to go out on the piss etc. (anytime you don't want to work, sick things like this...)
c) the part time instructor can fly for free.
Remeber also that at first PPL FI(R)'s don't have so many privileges (until de-restricted) eg. Cannot sign someone off for first solo etc.., so its unlikely they'll take your job.
I know lots of you resent the idea of people like Crash working part time as a FI for free, but would it be better for these people to become a full blown FI, work along side you and get paid, and increase competition ? Or even to work part time 'at the weekends' getting paid (as well as doing their other job) so reducing the number of hours you'll get?
There's got to be someway 'Professional and Private' instructors can work together for everyones benefit....
a) A school who 'employs' a part time QUALIFIED PPL FI to assist the other instructors can make more profit and pass this on to the paid instructors
b) A part time UNPAID BUT QUALIFIED FI can cover when the other instructors want a day off to go out on the piss etc. (anytime you don't want to work, sick things like this...)
c) the part time instructor can fly for free.
Remeber also that at first PPL FI(R)'s don't have so many privileges (until de-restricted) eg. Cannot sign someone off for first solo etc.., so its unlikely they'll take your job.
I know lots of you resent the idea of people like Crash working part time as a FI for free, but would it be better for these people to become a full blown FI, work along side you and get paid, and increase competition ? Or even to work part time 'at the weekends' getting paid (as well as doing their other job) so reducing the number of hours you'll get?
There's got to be someway 'Professional and Private' instructors can work together for everyones benefit....
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Englishal,
You're missing the point if you think that unpaid instructors will be providing a service for the benefit of all. Imagine the scenario where you have two instructors working for a school, one paid and one unpaid. Who do you think the school will use when faced by the choice? As profit making organizations, the school would, not unreasonably, use the instructor who presented the lowest overhead ie unpaid. Of course, this amateur, ie unpaid, instructor will have a full-time job, family, life outside aviation so will be unable to provide the commitment to students that the full-time professional instructor would so the students suffer from lack of continuity. Lack of continuity in flying is a euphamism for expensive so amateur instructors (probably) without IR/IMC quals may not save the student much cash. End result is that the only real winners in this game would be the amateur instructors and the school owner; the professional instructors and students will almost certainly lose out. Message ends.....
You're missing the point if you think that unpaid instructors will be providing a service for the benefit of all. Imagine the scenario where you have two instructors working for a school, one paid and one unpaid. Who do you think the school will use when faced by the choice? As profit making organizations, the school would, not unreasonably, use the instructor who presented the lowest overhead ie unpaid. Of course, this amateur, ie unpaid, instructor will have a full-time job, family, life outside aviation so will be unable to provide the commitment to students that the full-time professional instructor would so the students suffer from lack of continuity. Lack of continuity in flying is a euphamism for expensive so amateur instructors (probably) without IR/IMC quals may not save the student much cash. End result is that the only real winners in this game would be the amateur instructors and the school owner; the professional instructors and students will almost certainly lose out. Message ends.....
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clear prop,
If you think what I'm saying is crap, either say why or shut up. Otherwise you just appear ignorant. Hmm...I wonder why. I doubt I really need to explain your dig about Morse, but in case I do, it's still in the CAA exams, which I'm doing, but I thought was gone from JAR - thanks for telling us all that in a post that was otherwise a waste of space.
Enough of that. This forum seems to be full of privileged immature spoilt brats who think the world owes them a living. Pilots are essentially selfish - when did you last hear anyone say they wanted to be a pilot to help the world? Are you grateful at having the money from parents or decent jobs that paid enough to save or reasonable bank managers or whatever? Do you appreciate being able to eventually enjoy what you do for a living, which is managed by very few people? Nah, you whinge and whine and flame people like Crash because they might be taking a few pounds out of your pocket - pounds which aren't yours and which the world doesn't owe you in the first place. You hide your selfishness under the word "professional", but it isn't, any more than many hour building instructors are - and I've suffered from a few and know others who've given up flying because of them. There may be good hour building instructors, but a lot - and I mean A LOT - don't put themselves out more than they have to, and if you search far enough back in the forums you'll find a post from WWW to me saying why should they when their pay is crap. I wouldn't employ any of you whingers with the attitude you've got - and I know damn well no-one else would either. Why don't you all shape up and get real and above all GROW UP!
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
If you think what I'm saying is crap, either say why or shut up. Otherwise you just appear ignorant. Hmm...I wonder why. I doubt I really need to explain your dig about Morse, but in case I do, it's still in the CAA exams, which I'm doing, but I thought was gone from JAR - thanks for telling us all that in a post that was otherwise a waste of space.
Enough of that. This forum seems to be full of privileged immature spoilt brats who think the world owes them a living. Pilots are essentially selfish - when did you last hear anyone say they wanted to be a pilot to help the world? Are you grateful at having the money from parents or decent jobs that paid enough to save or reasonable bank managers or whatever? Do you appreciate being able to eventually enjoy what you do for a living, which is managed by very few people? Nah, you whinge and whine and flame people like Crash because they might be taking a few pounds out of your pocket - pounds which aren't yours and which the world doesn't owe you in the first place. You hide your selfishness under the word "professional", but it isn't, any more than many hour building instructors are - and I've suffered from a few and know others who've given up flying because of them. There may be good hour building instructors, but a lot - and I mean A LOT - don't put themselves out more than they have to, and if you search far enough back in the forums you'll find a post from WWW to me saying why should they when their pay is crap. I wouldn't employ any of you whingers with the attitude you've got - and I know damn well no-one else would either. Why don't you all shape up and get real and above all GROW UP!
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Hmmm, lets try to stay focussed on target here boys and girls. Unpaid Flying Instruction.
A PPL holding a FI rating is quite up to the job of teaching at the PPL level. Its a non-arguement.
Whirlybird - I recall the thread to which you refer. My point was that some students have unrealistically high expectations of what level of service they should expect from FI's. I can't get someone to clean my flat for £10pr hr but thats what I was paid (airborne) when you and I were at Welshpool. To earn a living on that money you have to work flat out when the weather allows. This negates the opportunity to dot every i and cross every t unfortunately.
*IF* this is unacceptable then you are quite at liberty to go to another school - such as CABAIR - where the instructors are salaried and under no such pressure to cram in work. Of course their PPL course price is a little over £7,000 whilst at Welshpool I believe you were paying £2,650... Its a bit like those dreadful people one sees on the television on package holidays complaining that their hotel room 'smelt a bit funny' and could they have compensation please on their £180 two week holiday in Corfu...
Now.
To a confession. I was a volunteer flying instructor for years and years. I taught Air Cadets to fly at weekends and was totally unpaid. In fact I had to earn the privilige by making tea/washing aircraft/strapping in/sweeping hangars for a couple of years.
Unpaid flying instructors do nothing to harm or particuarly help the GA community. The ONLY problem arises when they offer their services for free in a context where others charge for their services.
The solution is simple. The students pays the same rate. The school owner makes a slightly larger profit. The slightly higher profit is given back to the FI's in some sensible way. Everyone's happy.
I think it entirely appropriate that people feel strongly on this issue. To reiterate a comment I made earlier on this thread - a man is entitled to defend his own livelihood with extreme predjudice. You simply CAN'T go around threatening peoples jobs and expect them to blithley put it down to market forces and 'life's like that - ho hum' style laissez faire.
Not in the real world anyway.
WWW
A PPL holding a FI rating is quite up to the job of teaching at the PPL level. Its a non-arguement.
Whirlybird - I recall the thread to which you refer. My point was that some students have unrealistically high expectations of what level of service they should expect from FI's. I can't get someone to clean my flat for £10pr hr but thats what I was paid (airborne) when you and I were at Welshpool. To earn a living on that money you have to work flat out when the weather allows. This negates the opportunity to dot every i and cross every t unfortunately.
*IF* this is unacceptable then you are quite at liberty to go to another school - such as CABAIR - where the instructors are salaried and under no such pressure to cram in work. Of course their PPL course price is a little over £7,000 whilst at Welshpool I believe you were paying £2,650... Its a bit like those dreadful people one sees on the television on package holidays complaining that their hotel room 'smelt a bit funny' and could they have compensation please on their £180 two week holiday in Corfu...
Now.
To a confession. I was a volunteer flying instructor for years and years. I taught Air Cadets to fly at weekends and was totally unpaid. In fact I had to earn the privilige by making tea/washing aircraft/strapping in/sweeping hangars for a couple of years.
Unpaid flying instructors do nothing to harm or particuarly help the GA community. The ONLY problem arises when they offer their services for free in a context where others charge for their services.
The solution is simple. The students pays the same rate. The school owner makes a slightly larger profit. The slightly higher profit is given back to the FI's in some sensible way. Everyone's happy.
I think it entirely appropriate that people feel strongly on this issue. To reiterate a comment I made earlier on this thread - a man is entitled to defend his own livelihood with extreme predjudice. You simply CAN'T go around threatening peoples jobs and expect them to blithley put it down to market forces and 'life's like that - ho hum' style laissez faire.
Not in the real world anyway.
WWW
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I would be very interested to hear the opinion of flying club owners/operators regarding the hiring of PPL FI's, particularly during weekdays. It is not possible at a busy club to cram into the weekend and summer evenings everyone who wants fly.
When i instructed a couple of years back i used to teach full-time 3 weekdays plus sat & sunday, mostly to wannabees during the weekdays. At week ends we had a hoard of part-time Instructors teaching 'their own' students and we shared the trial lessons evenly - everybody happy, but then we were all being paid.
Very few people could afford to be available and motivated 5 days a week with no pay.
I ask of those who altruistically (from the comfort of their armchair)offer their services for nothing - will you be there offering a commercial service at a commercial establishment each week even when it's pissing down in January and you haven't flown for three weeks?
The quality of instruction must be directly related to experience and motivation. Experience means frequency and variety of flying for the instructor. Motivation is being a professional and working towards your own personal goals as well.
The acid test when assessing a fellow pilot is would you let your wife/child fly with them? I have to say that i would not let mine fly with a ppl full stop. I weep at the number of times when checking-out a PPL that they are unable to adequately perform an EFATO or PFL - i.e. they would have crashed(with my wife/child}. My own students were well versed with these but i cannot be certain that they fly regularly let alone practice general handling regularly.
The FI(A) course will not replace the knowledge aquired doing a Commercial GFT and then an FI(A).
The CAA know this and this is why the BCPL was introduced. It is commercial work and the paying customer has a right and the CAA a duty to strive for the highest standard.
When i instructed a couple of years back i used to teach full-time 3 weekdays plus sat & sunday, mostly to wannabees during the weekdays. At week ends we had a hoard of part-time Instructors teaching 'their own' students and we shared the trial lessons evenly - everybody happy, but then we were all being paid.
Very few people could afford to be available and motivated 5 days a week with no pay.
I ask of those who altruistically (from the comfort of their armchair)offer their services for nothing - will you be there offering a commercial service at a commercial establishment each week even when it's pissing down in January and you haven't flown for three weeks?
The quality of instruction must be directly related to experience and motivation. Experience means frequency and variety of flying for the instructor. Motivation is being a professional and working towards your own personal goals as well.
The acid test when assessing a fellow pilot is would you let your wife/child fly with them? I have to say that i would not let mine fly with a ppl full stop. I weep at the number of times when checking-out a PPL that they are unable to adequately perform an EFATO or PFL - i.e. they would have crashed(with my wife/child}. My own students were well versed with these but i cannot be certain that they fly regularly let alone practice general handling regularly.
The FI(A) course will not replace the knowledge aquired doing a Commercial GFT and then an FI(A).
The CAA know this and this is why the BCPL was introduced. It is commercial work and the paying customer has a right and the CAA a duty to strive for the highest standard.
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OK
All good stuff and very valid. Actually I can see both sides of this particular argument.
We have all had a bit of fun, must say I am in total agreement with WWW and Capt M.
Sometimes these forums do become a bit heated but 'hey' we're all under pressure in some form so to vent steam now and then is OK.
As the initiator of this thread I would like to thank everyone for their contribution. Is it perhaps a suitable time to put it to rest now?
We are all aviators, that's what we do....fly.
Sunny side up dudes
JWF
All good stuff and very valid. Actually I can see both sides of this particular argument.
We have all had a bit of fun, must say I am in total agreement with WWW and Capt M.
Sometimes these forums do become a bit heated but 'hey' we're all under pressure in some form so to vent steam now and then is OK.
As the initiator of this thread I would like to thank everyone for their contribution. Is it perhaps a suitable time to put it to rest now?
We are all aviators, that's what we do....fly.
Sunny side up dudes
JWF
Guest
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Captain i'm in full aggreeance. I can't believe the UK allows instructing by PPL holders at all. In Aust. a CPL is req'd before obtaining an I/R as instructing is a commercial purpose operation, for those wishing to instruct for free the ultralight and sports aviation arenas' await.
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Aaaahh I remember a time a few years back when instructors just had to have a PPL/AFIC
rating. Things then changed when the BCPL was introduced and those instructors already instructing were given grandfather rights and were issued with a BCPL (no exams or flight test required). I know cos I was taught by one in '91, he now flies for JMC.
My point being that do all you doubters seriously believe that all instruction prior to the BCPL was crap!!??? given by poorly trained ppl's , come on!! get a life!!
That system worked fine in my opinion until the CAA screwed it up in the 90's with the BCPL.
Captain Mainwaring your comments are foolish and ill considered.
Wee Weasley if you had read my previous comments you would know that I have not as you said, "Been in aviation 5 minutes", you give out your bad attitude to other forum users so you should be able to take it back.
Oh by the way it is good to know that you can sweep cos a friend of mine crashed his PA28
through the hedge at Welshpool (not hurt thankfully). The A/C was in pieces but dear old cyril always recalls a welsh guy with a broom sweeping up his beloved "Victor Uniform" or what was left of it!
Oh and the bad language, well if you compare
ass to the F-word used by little red train, then I reckon he should get the boot first!
Englishal and Whirlybird are spot on !
rating. Things then changed when the BCPL was introduced and those instructors already instructing were given grandfather rights and were issued with a BCPL (no exams or flight test required). I know cos I was taught by one in '91, he now flies for JMC.
My point being that do all you doubters seriously believe that all instruction prior to the BCPL was crap!!??? given by poorly trained ppl's , come on!! get a life!!
That system worked fine in my opinion until the CAA screwed it up in the 90's with the BCPL.
Captain Mainwaring your comments are foolish and ill considered.
Wee Weasley if you had read my previous comments you would know that I have not as you said, "Been in aviation 5 minutes", you give out your bad attitude to other forum users so you should be able to take it back.
Oh by the way it is good to know that you can sweep cos a friend of mine crashed his PA28
through the hedge at Welshpool (not hurt thankfully). The A/C was in pieces but dear old cyril always recalls a welsh guy with a broom sweeping up his beloved "Victor Uniform" or what was left of it!
Oh and the bad language, well if you compare
ass to the F-word used by little red train, then I reckon he should get the boot first!
Englishal and Whirlybird are spot on !
Guest
Posts: n/a
WWW,
I seem to remember that wasn't quite what you said in the post we're referring to, but if it was what you meant I have no argument with it. "You simply CAN'T go around threatening peoples jobs and expect them to blithley put it down to market forces and 'life's like that". I can, and I do. I just make sure I'm better than they are and have the right attitude and get the job anyway. Better than whinging, don't you think? This isn't a problem unique to aviation, as I said before.
Crash is right; way back you could instruct with a PPL and an AFI rating. I have a friend who still does so, with grandfather rights. She's been instructing a couple of days a week (paid the usual pittance) for years - she enjoys it and gets some free flying. And she's good, very good. We flew to Scotland together for a few days last summer, the first time I'd actually flown with her. She flies like she was born in an aeroplane, and gently managed to coax me into landing unaided in a strong gusty crosswind on a very short runway with an aircraft parked on the undershoot(!). I'm basically a helicopter pilot who just about keeps my f/w licence current, and any other instructor (or experienced pilot) would probably have taken over - and no-one would have blamed them. So whatever else you may say - and there ARE two sides to this - quit questioning the dedication and ability of all non-CPL qualified instructors.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
I seem to remember that wasn't quite what you said in the post we're referring to, but if it was what you meant I have no argument with it. "You simply CAN'T go around threatening peoples jobs and expect them to blithley put it down to market forces and 'life's like that". I can, and I do. I just make sure I'm better than they are and have the right attitude and get the job anyway. Better than whinging, don't you think? This isn't a problem unique to aviation, as I said before.
Crash is right; way back you could instruct with a PPL and an AFI rating. I have a friend who still does so, with grandfather rights. She's been instructing a couple of days a week (paid the usual pittance) for years - she enjoys it and gets some free flying. And she's good, very good. We flew to Scotland together for a few days last summer, the first time I'd actually flown with her. She flies like she was born in an aeroplane, and gently managed to coax me into landing unaided in a strong gusty crosswind on a very short runway with an aircraft parked on the undershoot(!). I'm basically a helicopter pilot who just about keeps my f/w licence current, and any other instructor (or experienced pilot) would probably have taken over - and no-one would have blamed them. So whatever else you may say - and there ARE two sides to this - quit questioning the dedication and ability of all non-CPL qualified instructors.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thought I'd throw one in for the pot.
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the actual ability of the instructor to "teach". It is a refined and very skilful art. It doesn't come overnight. For an instructor, knowledge is not everything, more importantly it is the ability to impart some/all/any knowledge to the uninitiated. It doesn't matter a bean whether you've sat the exams or not if you don't have the necessary skills to train the new recruit. Having attended the new Instructor Seminar recently, it was clearly evident those who had it, those who were trying to get it and those who, bless them, will never get it.
And to re-word one of Crash's points, if you've been flying more than a couple of years, it's most likely that you would have been taught by a PPL QFI who would not have been anywhere near a CPL/ATPL course. Many were and still are, surpreme instructors who have honed the skill of instructing. Are some of you actually placing yourselves above them because you've sat an exam or two?
[This message has been edited by Balance! (edited 24 May 2001).]
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the actual ability of the instructor to "teach". It is a refined and very skilful art. It doesn't come overnight. For an instructor, knowledge is not everything, more importantly it is the ability to impart some/all/any knowledge to the uninitiated. It doesn't matter a bean whether you've sat the exams or not if you don't have the necessary skills to train the new recruit. Having attended the new Instructor Seminar recently, it was clearly evident those who had it, those who were trying to get it and those who, bless them, will never get it.
And to re-word one of Crash's points, if you've been flying more than a couple of years, it's most likely that you would have been taught by a PPL QFI who would not have been anywhere near a CPL/ATPL course. Many were and still are, surpreme instructors who have honed the skill of instructing. Are some of you actually placing yourselves above them because you've sat an exam or two?
[This message has been edited by Balance! (edited 24 May 2001).]