So you want to be an instructor?
Guest
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Clunk - with the relevent pieces of paper, I don't think anyone has a problem with paid weekend instructors.
It is the idea of people offering to do the job for free that offends those people for whom this is their only source of income and only way up in the aviation world.
[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 22 May 2001).]
It is the idea of people offering to do the job for free that offends those people for whom this is their only source of income and only way up in the aviation world.
[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 22 May 2001).]
Guest
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>CRASH first Post
"having not sat any Commercial Examinations"
>CRASH second post
" Having passed the old style exams many moons ago, I ...."
CRASH
Did you pass the CPL or not - or are you
a 'casualty' of the system - of which there are many...
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 22 May 2001).]
"having not sat any Commercial Examinations"
>CRASH second post
" Having passed the old style exams many moons ago, I ...."
CRASH
Did you pass the CPL or not - or are you
a 'casualty' of the system - of which there are many...
[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 22 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm sorry if this has already been said, but in Re to the statement by CrashBarrier, and then the response that said charge the student the same, and give it to the club...
It angered me slightly...I have no flying experience as of yet, and the one thing holding me back is money. I'm not particularly poor, but even if I spent every last penny I get on flying, I'd probably get about 1 lesson a month
If more people like CrashBarrier want to instruct for free, how about A level students like myself pay for the fuel and other costs, but not the hefty profits that I'm sure are stuck onto the lesson cost. I would like to see some more people in the industry trying to help out people like me with real instruction...
Regards,
Mike
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What does this button do? Oh
It angered me slightly...I have no flying experience as of yet, and the one thing holding me back is money. I'm not particularly poor, but even if I spent every last penny I get on flying, I'd probably get about 1 lesson a month
If more people like CrashBarrier want to instruct for free, how about A level students like myself pay for the fuel and other costs, but not the hefty profits that I'm sure are stuck onto the lesson cost. I would like to see some more people in the industry trying to help out people like me with real instruction...
Regards,
Mike
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What does this button do? Oh
Guest
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Soap boxes and teddies all round then......
Whatever your views on WWW's or Crash's ideas surely a common aim should be to improve the industry for all no matter how small the improvement ( thinks battles and wars???). I'm all for voicing opinions but as a relative newcomer to this site I'm surprised at how quickly some replies degenerate into needless individual personal attacks.As a rotary wannabe I have no desire to work for the airlines but I am amazed at how quickly some vent their anger.Lifes too short.The studying and practicals are stressful and there are far too many wind up merchants already that we all get caught out by.For an industry that is so relatively small why do we feel the need to be so bitchy.As a self funder myself I'd have hoped for atleast minimal respect all round regardless of age,experience,gender or future plans.
I'm disappointed
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It went Earth,Sky,
AMBULANCE
Whatever your views on WWW's or Crash's ideas surely a common aim should be to improve the industry for all no matter how small the improvement ( thinks battles and wars???). I'm all for voicing opinions but as a relative newcomer to this site I'm surprised at how quickly some replies degenerate into needless individual personal attacks.As a rotary wannabe I have no desire to work for the airlines but I am amazed at how quickly some vent their anger.Lifes too short.The studying and practicals are stressful and there are far too many wind up merchants already that we all get caught out by.For an industry that is so relatively small why do we feel the need to be so bitchy.As a self funder myself I'd have hoped for atleast minimal respect all round regardless of age,experience,gender or future plans.
I'm disappointed
------------------
It went Earth,Sky,
AMBULANCE
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mike, I quote:
"the hefty profits that I'm sure are stuck onto the lesson cost."
So you have detailed knowledge of the costs of running aircraft and the overheads of running a flying school do you? Do you even know what overheads are? Do you realise that aeroplanes cost money even when they are not flying?? How many years experience did you have in retailing and business management before your "A" levels? If none, I suggest you spend a year doing the bookeeping for an aviation organisation before implying that their prices are unreasonable.
In order to keep prices competitive most flying schools have to accept a profit margin of about 10% of turnover, which is a lot less than most retailers who would have a profit margin of about 40-50%.
Surprise, companies have to make profits or they go broke. Similarly clubs and charities have to cover their costs. Suggest you go to the library and get out some text books on economics and company law.
Have a nice day.
[This message has been edited by XENA (edited 23 May 2001).]
"the hefty profits that I'm sure are stuck onto the lesson cost."
So you have detailed knowledge of the costs of running aircraft and the overheads of running a flying school do you? Do you even know what overheads are? Do you realise that aeroplanes cost money even when they are not flying?? How many years experience did you have in retailing and business management before your "A" levels? If none, I suggest you spend a year doing the bookeeping for an aviation organisation before implying that their prices are unreasonable.
In order to keep prices competitive most flying schools have to accept a profit margin of about 10% of turnover, which is a lot less than most retailers who would have a profit margin of about 40-50%.
Surprise, companies have to make profits or they go broke. Similarly clubs and charities have to cover their costs. Suggest you go to the library and get out some text books on economics and company law.
Have a nice day.
[This message has been edited by XENA (edited 23 May 2001).]
Guest
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Blimey, Xena. That's a bit aggressive. No need to bite the guy's head off.
You don't need to do an A level in business management before you're allowed to question where your money's going. From what I've seen, you don't even need one to run a flying school.
[Edited for a stupid typo]
[This message has been edited by Wrong Stuff (edited 23 May 2001).]
You don't need to do an A level in business management before you're allowed to question where your money's going. From what I've seen, you don't even need one to run a flying school.
[Edited for a stupid typo]
[This message has been edited by Wrong Stuff (edited 23 May 2001).]
Guest
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Oh goody, this has de-generated into one of my fave topics! The rudeness and arrogance being shown is so professional.
Listen boys and girls, If someone wants to instruct for free as a 'hobby' there is nothing wrong with that. The problem isn't that person it's the system (ie many airlines expecting applicants to have magically aquired 1000hrs etc at no cost to the airline, before being accepted - what other industry expects or tolerates this??).
BTW I'm currently studying for my ATPL theory and will do a CPL and FI... just so I can get a part time instructing job, to be able to fly for fun. Let me repeat that phrase in case any of you can't remember what it means... to fly for fun (practice saying it out loud if it helps).
There is no money involved in basic part time instruction because;
ATPL theory £2500
CPL course £5000
FI course £4800
total £12,300 (not inc hours to get past 150hrs P1)
If I earn £12 per hour and do four hrs in a day on average (good!) and instruct for two days a week, deducting £10 per day for travel/expenses and 40% for tax (yes I've also got a real job as well) that means I've got to instruct for approx 2100 hrs before I even pay off my training costs.
The CAA insist on you having done CPL or ATPL theory before the FI course (why the hell so you really need JAR CPL theory to get an FI, god knows?) If it wasn't for that issue, I guess many people definately wouldn't bother doing a CPL and would just get an FI on a PPL (why pay the extra £7500 which will take years to recoup). In a way insisting you do CPL theory before a FI is protecting the path for 'professional' (read ATPL hour build) instructors.... some CAA agenda here methinks?
I don't begrudge anyone a decentliving or a career, I genuinely admire anyone who has the tenacity to become a professional pilot. But please, please, for those who do, stop thinking the rest of us owe you a path to get there.
BTW A few people doing part time instructing for free, ain't going to stop clubs still taking on ATPL hour builders...Remember the glass is half full.
Let the flames begin (pls don't mention my kids, wife or mum cos I'll cry).
Listen boys and girls, If someone wants to instruct for free as a 'hobby' there is nothing wrong with that. The problem isn't that person it's the system (ie many airlines expecting applicants to have magically aquired 1000hrs etc at no cost to the airline, before being accepted - what other industry expects or tolerates this??).
BTW I'm currently studying for my ATPL theory and will do a CPL and FI... just so I can get a part time instructing job, to be able to fly for fun. Let me repeat that phrase in case any of you can't remember what it means... to fly for fun (practice saying it out loud if it helps).
There is no money involved in basic part time instruction because;
ATPL theory £2500
CPL course £5000
FI course £4800
total £12,300 (not inc hours to get past 150hrs P1)
If I earn £12 per hour and do four hrs in a day on average (good!) and instruct for two days a week, deducting £10 per day for travel/expenses and 40% for tax (yes I've also got a real job as well) that means I've got to instruct for approx 2100 hrs before I even pay off my training costs.
The CAA insist on you having done CPL or ATPL theory before the FI course (why the hell so you really need JAR CPL theory to get an FI, god knows?) If it wasn't for that issue, I guess many people definately wouldn't bother doing a CPL and would just get an FI on a PPL (why pay the extra £7500 which will take years to recoup). In a way insisting you do CPL theory before a FI is protecting the path for 'professional' (read ATPL hour build) instructors.... some CAA agenda here methinks?
I don't begrudge anyone a decentliving or a career, I genuinely admire anyone who has the tenacity to become a professional pilot. But please, please, for those who do, stop thinking the rest of us owe you a path to get there.
BTW A few people doing part time instructing for free, ain't going to stop clubs still taking on ATPL hour builders...Remember the glass is half full.
Let the flames begin (pls don't mention my kids, wife or mum cos I'll cry).
Guest
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Yeah, as long as the guy working for free doesn't undercut the professionals all those fine words are true.
As for "flying for fun" the appropriate forum is actually Private Flying. Remember this is the PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network and generally we fly for cash and lots of it please.
WWW
As for "flying for fun" the appropriate forum is actually Private Flying. Remember this is the PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network and generally we fly for cash and lots of it please.
WWW
Guest
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WWW,
Thanks for not mentioning my kids.
On a serious note, I'd rather not hang around in wanabees with the current climate of negativity and flaming in various posts (cheer up guys, for gods sake). But it's the only place I can get relevant, up-to-date(useful) info on the 'professional' qualifications that the CAA insist I have in order to be an FI and get paid for it.
Roll on the FI/Restricted CPL (for UK instruction only, with no CPL exams/test required).. damn, I said it again, flame on guys!
Cheers.
Thanks for not mentioning my kids.
On a serious note, I'd rather not hang around in wanabees with the current climate of negativity and flaming in various posts (cheer up guys, for gods sake). But it's the only place I can get relevant, up-to-date(useful) info on the 'professional' qualifications that the CAA insist I have in order to be an FI and get paid for it.
Roll on the FI/Restricted CPL (for UK instruction only, with no CPL exams/test required).. damn, I said it again, flame on guys!
Cheers.
Guest
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Way harsh Xena...If you read again, I said this should apply for students, as they are the future of the industry, but also have the hardest time getting into it. I certainly cant afford to get any large number of lessons, and if I go out and work part time it will doubtlessly have an adverse affect on my A level grades...All I was saying was that everything doesn't always have to be for finacial gain. If I were in charge of a flight school in the future, I'd be doing everything I could to get as many young people a chance to fly, regardless of whether I were making profit or not...Fair enough, charge the middle-aged weekend flyers and keep your business going...But at the minute I doubt there are many poor flight school owners around
Regards
Mike
Regards
Mike
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crash Barrier, you said
"Give UKPPL a break, you are so stuck up your own ass".
I have nothing to give UKPPL a break from my friend. I was just stating a reasoned point of view. As per SOP here.
Its all very well pining for even cheaper flying training but in the end the result is even worse pay for FI's and even more people chasing the job you covet so much and even more downward pressure on pay and conditions in the industry.
Remember - oh perhaps you wouldn't as you've only made 11 posts and been around 5 minutes - that for a good many years I myself was a VOLUNTEER flying instructor. For the Air Training Corps. Giving up my weekends to strap people in, clean a/c, make the tea and eventually instruct.
I think I've done my bit to launch young people's flying careers thank you very much.
Right, off to Iceland tonight - that is if I can get this "head out of my ass"
WWW
ps Crash Barrier - mind your language please.
"Give UKPPL a break, you are so stuck up your own ass".
I have nothing to give UKPPL a break from my friend. I was just stating a reasoned point of view. As per SOP here.
Its all very well pining for even cheaper flying training but in the end the result is even worse pay for FI's and even more people chasing the job you covet so much and even more downward pressure on pay and conditions in the industry.
Remember - oh perhaps you wouldn't as you've only made 11 posts and been around 5 minutes - that for a good many years I myself was a VOLUNTEER flying instructor. For the Air Training Corps. Giving up my weekends to strap people in, clean a/c, make the tea and eventually instruct.
I think I've done my bit to launch young people's flying careers thank you very much.
Right, off to Iceland tonight - that is if I can get this "head out of my ass"
WWW
ps Crash Barrier - mind your language please.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ah Yes
Students...don't you just love'em?
I forgot that we all OWE students something for nothing!
Silly me! Of COURSE I can survive on the ever dwindling pay of a flying instructor! I have only got a wife, house and two kids to support!
Yes..I chose this way of life, but I do NOT expect to freeload off others. What would be nice though is not to have some TWIT turn up at the flying club trying to devalue my job!
Mmm? maybe I could get a job as an ATCO or perhaps a university lecturer....yeah I'm SURE they would just love an enthusiastic unpaid untrained amateur
JWF
: : :
Students...don't you just love'em?
I forgot that we all OWE students something for nothing!
Silly me! Of COURSE I can survive on the ever dwindling pay of a flying instructor! I have only got a wife, house and two kids to support!
Yes..I chose this way of life, but I do NOT expect to freeload off others. What would be nice though is not to have some TWIT turn up at the flying club trying to devalue my job!
Mmm? maybe I could get a job as an ATCO or perhaps a university lecturer....yeah I'm SURE they would just love an enthusiastic unpaid untrained amateur
JWF
: : :
Guest
Posts: n/a
Guys, guys, come on, enough is enough.
Lets just agree to disagree, that whilst some people in this forum feel threatened by PPL's with FI ratings doing instruction for no pay. It's a free world and down to personal choice. If someone has done the CPL theory and FI course (both involving £££ and lots of time/effort spent) then they are qualified to teach, end of story.
When and if they bring in the NPPL the situation will get a whole lot worse for those who object to this, as it is rumoured (only rumoured at this point) that there will be a simpler NPPL FI rating which will allow wages to be paid (??)
JWF ref yr post, "not to have some TWIT turn up at the flying club trying to devalue my job!"... I can't see how a person doing flight instruction, having a FI ratiing could be described as a 'twit'. If you work full time, then I wouldn't think it would even affect you, as most people wanted to instruct on a PPL would only work part time(?)
"I'm SURE they would just love a enthusiastic unpaid untrained amateur" amateur perhaps, but I don't think they'd be untrained... they'd have to have a FI rating, which means you are qualified to teach flying...and If that person was a knowledable, capable and enthusiastic pilot, then I'd guess he'd get more students than someone who was doing instruction purely for hour building under duress (before you flame me I'm not suggesting that all ATPL hour builders are like that).
WWW Have a good flight (or are you popping down the road for a bag of frozen chicken breasts?);-}
Best regards.
Lets just agree to disagree, that whilst some people in this forum feel threatened by PPL's with FI ratings doing instruction for no pay. It's a free world and down to personal choice. If someone has done the CPL theory and FI course (both involving £££ and lots of time/effort spent) then they are qualified to teach, end of story.
When and if they bring in the NPPL the situation will get a whole lot worse for those who object to this, as it is rumoured (only rumoured at this point) that there will be a simpler NPPL FI rating which will allow wages to be paid (??)
JWF ref yr post, "not to have some TWIT turn up at the flying club trying to devalue my job!"... I can't see how a person doing flight instruction, having a FI ratiing could be described as a 'twit'. If you work full time, then I wouldn't think it would even affect you, as most people wanted to instruct on a PPL would only work part time(?)
"I'm SURE they would just love a enthusiastic unpaid untrained amateur" amateur perhaps, but I don't think they'd be untrained... they'd have to have a FI rating, which means you are qualified to teach flying...and If that person was a knowledable, capable and enthusiastic pilot, then I'd guess he'd get more students than someone who was doing instruction purely for hour building under duress (before you flame me I'm not suggesting that all ATPL hour builders are like that).
WWW Have a good flight (or are you popping down the road for a bag of frozen chicken breasts?);-}
Best regards.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The hours builders are still not getting any sympathy by way of their diplomacy.
There are people who have something to offer who don't expect anything for it. That is to say they don't make their living at it.
The people you want to give you money are in the majority of cases NEVER going to get a CPL. They just pour money into their flying for fun.
Down my way, scandinavia, a PPL instructor will charge £25 an hour, typically from the start of the ground briefing to the end of the debrief. Twin-instrument instructors are charging from £45-£70 an hour. The result is.......extremely limited vacancies for instructors due to the exhorbitant cost of private flying.
So guys, you choose.
For the record, I am in favour of a good wage for full-time, career instructors and a subsistance wage for hour-building instructors. This also reflects the difference in experience between 500 and 5000hrs.
Can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined.
There are people who have something to offer who don't expect anything for it. That is to say they don't make their living at it.
The people you want to give you money are in the majority of cases NEVER going to get a CPL. They just pour money into their flying for fun.
Down my way, scandinavia, a PPL instructor will charge £25 an hour, typically from the start of the ground briefing to the end of the debrief. Twin-instrument instructors are charging from £45-£70 an hour. The result is.......extremely limited vacancies for instructors due to the exhorbitant cost of private flying.
So guys, you choose.
For the record, I am in favour of a good wage for full-time, career instructors and a subsistance wage for hour-building instructors. This also reflects the difference in experience between 500 and 5000hrs.
Can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Like Crash I want to instruct, I would rather be paid, but it seems that in order to do that I have to shell out loads more cash than I have, so I would settle for an unpaid 'weekend' instructing job for the time being. I'm a late starter, aged 31, and wasn't lucky / affluent enough to get a sponsorship / ATPL when in my 20's, so I got a 'normal' job. Anyway been working for 10 years now, have a PPL, and finally have enough cash to do some sort of FI course. However, I cannot afford to quit my job right away as I have commitments, such as big mortgage (woman:-) etc., so I could not survive on minimum wage without a lot of difficulty. It would have been ok had I gone straight from University to an instructing job, but alas, catch 22, no money, no licence, no chance of getting a flying job!
I love flying and get thoroughly pissed of at paying £100 per hour to rent a plane (especially when you can rent a Seneca II in the US for the same...), so would 'instruct for food' given half a chance. The only way I could see myself survive, would be to keep working where I am, instruct part time, and maybe once I have enough experience get a flying job which would pay enough for me to quit my present job. Either that or remain earning a crust elsewhere and remain a part time instructor, after all it's the flying I love.
I think that you Professional instructors are royally shafted when it comes to salary and this all stems from the typical UK beauracracy which in turn whacks up the price of all things GA and in turn the clubs can't afford to pay a decent wage and obviously new students don't want to pay any more than now.... After all, a FI needs to have as much responsibility as a doctor, it's pretty easy to kill someone flying (what goes up must come down and all that)....
One point though, I know many of you are pissed off at working alongside un-paid instructors, but at the end of the day I may be an instructor, working for the same **** salary, working alongside someone from a rich family, who's daddy and mummy have paid for him or her to go to Oxford, has a big house in the country, and drives a BMW. Does this give me the right to get pissed off with him because it has been laid on a plate for him? No, thought not...
By the way, what are peoples views on a PPL FI teaching for the new NPL, either paid or unpaid....
I love flying and get thoroughly pissed of at paying £100 per hour to rent a plane (especially when you can rent a Seneca II in the US for the same...), so would 'instruct for food' given half a chance. The only way I could see myself survive, would be to keep working where I am, instruct part time, and maybe once I have enough experience get a flying job which would pay enough for me to quit my present job. Either that or remain earning a crust elsewhere and remain a part time instructor, after all it's the flying I love.
I think that you Professional instructors are royally shafted when it comes to salary and this all stems from the typical UK beauracracy which in turn whacks up the price of all things GA and in turn the clubs can't afford to pay a decent wage and obviously new students don't want to pay any more than now.... After all, a FI needs to have as much responsibility as a doctor, it's pretty easy to kill someone flying (what goes up must come down and all that)....
One point though, I know many of you are pissed off at working alongside un-paid instructors, but at the end of the day I may be an instructor, working for the same **** salary, working alongside someone from a rich family, who's daddy and mummy have paid for him or her to go to Oxford, has a big house in the country, and drives a BMW. Does this give me the right to get pissed off with him because it has been laid on a plate for him? No, thought not...
By the way, what are peoples views on a PPL FI teaching for the new NPL, either paid or unpaid....