Smart Aviation Poznan

[richpea]

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

PS. Few photos of our extra ng:

Looking good! Wish I could have a go!

[n2sK]

Originally Posted by richpea

Is it a scam if the information is freely available if you care to dig into their website and payment terms for more than 10 minutes? Its not like they try and hide the fact that foreign students pay slightly more than Polish nationals, or deny it, they just don't put a big banner up and loudly advertise that fact. I never bothered to ask for a particular reason as to why this was because, at the end of the day, I was still getting great training at a good price. By your logic, almost every university in the world is "scamming" foreign students as well... if you go to university in the UK as a foreign student you're paying up to half as much again as a UK national... if you're calling that a scam as well, then I'll have to agree, but then we're agreeing that its actually a super common phenomenon and isn't really all that worth talking about.

But I disagree, it is very much worth talking about! This is the exact behavior these companies are counting on to keep the scam going. I understand that taking on foreigners may cause some additional costs for a training institution, however, these should be clear additional charges, simply charging more for tuition makes no sense, it's simple discrimination. And yes, universities are a terrible example because they do this deliberately, however in their case it's different as sometimes they do offer additional services to foreigners, but overall is mostly still a scam tho.
But coming back to smart, after I read your post I went and checked, and the information is not nearly as open as you suggested... first finding the information for EUR vs PLN required me to open the page in both Polish and English, but honestly, that is understandable. What I cannot understand is the 10.000 EUR difference between the 0 to fATPL price if someone pays in PLN vs if someone pays in EUR 0.O, just... how?!
Can you justify this with tuition costs? How? how does a foreign student cost ten thousand more in tuition? but it gets worse! A landing costs 30 PLN and a touch and go costs 10 PLN, but for foreigners the charges are like thisPPO full stop landing 10,00 EUR PLN 45.00 price including taxes

EPPO touch & go 5,00 EUR PLN 22.50 price including taxes
Like, seriously? How can this be justified outside of a shameless money grab? How does a touch and go by a foreign student cost more? Does it wear the runway more?
It's not even a matter of conversion as the prices for foreigners are also stated in PLN and it's just more! Over 100% markup.

Originally Posted by richpea

My ten-cents on the whole issue is that I have no problem with Polish students paying less than me, I'm taking advantage of their country to get something way cheaper than I could in my own. If the money is just going into the pockets of the management, that sucks and I'd be disappointed, but maybe it's going to subsidize the lower fees the Poles have to pay? And since the average earnings in Poland and way lower than what I get, I'd have no issue with that. I can't prove that is the case, but you can't prove the opposite either... so maybe you're just a pessimist and I'm just an optimist? I understand again if you're also from somewhere where the exchange rate and yearly salary is maybe not as beneficial as it is for someone based in Western Europe (or elsewhere, as myself), but I find it a bit hard to understand people who are begrudging others getting to pay less when (from my the point of view of my position) you are already getting a great deal financially

How innocent can you be? If Smart was subsidizing anything it would be a charity and would be tax exempt... Also, Your mindset of "if I can pay why not" is the reason why airlines now charge full price for type ratings, and pay-to-fly exists. While people are happy to pay when they are being shamelessly milked for every cent, it will just continue...

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

Indeed we try to save paper because students print almost everything. With unrestricted access to the printer students print even ATPL books.

This is a management failure, there are plenty of solutions that do not involve creating unnecessary inconvenience for people that are trying to legitimately prepare for a lesson.

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

We fly 1500h a month. Even with own maintenance it’s really difficult to provide service when 5 airplanes are approaching 100h inspection at the same time. This year we are expecting to approach 12000h of flight training. This is twice as much as last year. We invest in new airplanes every year but only 30% of our fleet is available. At the moment two twin engine airplanes are available. Third twin engine aircraft will be available in September. Next year we will focus to bring all our airplanes back to service including 4th Tecnam P2006T.

And yet this is not what we are told... Your donut salesman is very quick to point out that with own maintenance aircraft are always in tip-top shape and ready to fly quickly after going into maintenance... Also, having most of your fleet approaching high maintenance levels at the same time, is again, a management failure, this is why fleet managers exist and efficient coordination is required between maintenance and flight ops. What is the point of having 9 single engine and 3 twin engine aircraft if, by your own admission, only 30% of your fleet is available? so when the donut salesman tells us that you have 3 twins, should we imagine just one operating? When the donut salesman tells us 9 singles, should we imagine just 3? This is now what we were promised!

Also, in your whole post you did not address one of the main issues being discussed. what happened with the twins? SP-ULC mysteriously disappeared early this year, some people say it was a gear failure, some others that it was engine issues, all we know is that it was out for a long while, and only recently came back, after the gear up landing of the new twin. So what happened there? Was the recently failed twin cannibalized for parts to bring the other twin into flying to have at least two? And what happened to the recently failed twin? When is it expected back?

All this cloak and dagger around these issues really leaves a stink as a lot of people have been promised timelines that now look impossible to meet and there is little to no communication on the situation, the plans, proposed solutions, or way forward. Just empty promises of "will be done by X date" which at this point have been broken so many times no one takes them seriously anymore. Like "bringing all planes back to service next year" - this is unacceptable, the planes need to be back to service now! The students are waiting to fly now! If the capacity is not there why were so many people admitted into the courses? It is clearly an issue known by management, why then were the courses allowed to exceed the capacity the school has?
I sincerely hope this was not a money grab scheme to bring in students and spend their money fixing the known issues!

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

We are also working to have a new, bigger office because present place is very crowded and our employees are being permanently distracted during their duties by students who come with all kind of problems and requests like buying maps for example. We are not a store. We have few vfr maps in stock so if someone must buy it immediately we sell it for 100 PLN. Obviously students can buy vfr maps and other items somewhere else at own discretion and lower price. It’s not a core of our business so this complaint is absolutety radiculous.

I am sorry?! Did the CEO of Smart aviation just classify a customer remark as "radiculous" (yes, with an a)?! I am actually glad you made this remark as your true colours are shining though... you started your post with all the bells and whisles of a standard "management addressing the situation", but it quickly devolved into this... If your clients have questions it is the staff's responsibility to answer them! And if clients are not correctly informed it is yet another management failure! This is not what people are told! It is never mentioned that selling charts is not a core part of the business, the way the donut salesman puts it there is the infrastructure in place to support students in anything they need, staff are always available to help! so if this is not the case, then stop making promises, or at least inducing people in error and create a clear division. You can hardly complain about clients asking questions if they have been misinformed in the first place...

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

Most of our ME+IR+CPL students complete all training in 8-10 weeks as promised. However some students require more attention, time and preparation so this time might be exceeded in some cases. I would like to apologize all students who are not satisfied with our service provided. Hovewer I totaly disagree that quaility of training has decreased to compare with previous year. Most of our instructors including me fly for airlines.

Again, this is not what is being sold! The sell is 8 weeks! so you admiting to 8-10 weeks is already a sign that there are delays. However, the rest of your post is troubling, if students knew how to fly we would not need to pay you to teach us! Most students need more preparation and time, 8 weeks is very compressed, so does this mean that its 8 weeks but only if you already know everything?

Also, how come the CEO and head of training works for an airline? How do you find the time to manage the school efficiently? Judging by the amount of problems there are, you don't...
And you talk a big game about quality of training but you are buying an Extra for UPRT? How is that training quality?
It will be awesome and lots of fun for aerobatics, sure, but for UPRT? How is an inline seat going to be good for that? How are instructors supposed to help students and show them things while looking at their startle reactions? Even EASA clearly states that the cockpit configuration for UPRT should resemble an airliner, how can the extra even remotely achieve that?

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

We are offering a really high standard of training and as an evidence of this I can only write that in July and August eight our former students have succesfully passed airline assessment at Ryanair and Wizzair.,

Ok, so assuming your numbers are 100% correct and indeed 8 students from 2 courses got jobs (and this is a big if as likely these were from more than two courses, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt), facebook posts, and actual observation determine that each course is 10 to 11 people. So assuming that those 8 came from a pool of 21 is reasonable. That is a 38% pass rate... Hardly something to brag about, most certainly not something to corroborate a "high standard of training" claim.
Also, didn't Ryanair recently make a post on linked in calling out schools that claim to have high standards and high hire rates actually having something like 38% pass rate?
Yes they did! Look:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...5126742491136/

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

It’s a pleasure to be here and explain everything.

Everything? No... In fact, you left most of the hot topics unanswered...

What is the deal with the donut salesman? Why is he allowed to make promises the school can't keep?
What is the deal with foreigners being charged significantly more, even for things that have no relation to someone being a foreigner or not?
Are you actually using money paid by the foreigners to subsidize the training of the Polish students like someone was actually suggesting above?
While you are it, is the difference indeed to pay commission to the donut salesman?
What happened to the aircraft? Are they indeed damaged? Are delays likely as a result?

[richpea]

Originally Posted by n2sK

HIS WHOLE ESSAY

My mind set of "if I can pay, why not?" is context specific and based on the fact that if I wanted to do this same training in the UK, France or Spain I would be paying at least twice the amount I paid at Smart, at the very cheapest. The rationale behind not begrudging locals a cheaper cost at an ATO in their own country where I am a customer taking advantage of lower costs is a world away from accepting that I should pay a company for training when they want me to work for them, and that if I can't afford that then I can't have a job. To conflate the two is frankly disingenuous.

I have no idea of the cost breakdowns and am loathe to talk any more about issues I have absolutely no knowledge about, but I can imagine several scenarios to do with both training practicalities and airport services costs where arguments could be made for foreign students to pay more... use your imagination. I'm not saying that's super fair and equal in a perfect world, and the reason for that is because I can also use my imagination to see how difficult it must be on average Polish wages to save up the amount needed for training. I have no idea how the extra money I paid is allocated or where it goes to, but I think its a bit hypocritical to go on about "fairness fairness fairness" and not pay service to the fact that the cheaper price for Polish nationals probably allows more Poles to realistically undertake flight training, whilst the price for foreigners still allows the majority of the foreign trainees to complete their training at an incredibly reasonable price. And I'm not asking anyone from Smart to explain it for me because I was super happy with the price of my training, and its quality for that price, regardless.

You seem to have an axe to grind but most of your complaints could be leveled at many flight schools (re: expected completion timelines; tech issues with aircraft; maintenance scheduling)... honestly, the number of students that I know that are happy with their training and finished within the expected schedules outnumbers those who didn't. Of those that didn't, and I encountered two of these personally, some had particularly unrealistic expectations that were beyond being explained by "I was told x,y,z was possible" and more in the realm of "why can you not control the weather/random wear of mechanical parts/cancel other people's flying because I am here now and I can only make myself available on THIS day?"

I can only say that Smart could do better in terms of having a bit more of a robust bureaucracy in place, and perhaps this thread will prompt them to put in place some kind of a "checklist of stuff to get before you turn up" list. Fact remains though, I would recommend anyone who asked me about it to train at Smart, with the caveat that they may have to employ some adulting skills at some point.

[Pilot1981]

I believe that n2sk is representing another school. Such a big effort to write a long comment full of frustration is a strong evidence that we deal with somene from competive company. I guess that whatever is written here will be turned against Smart Aviation. There is no perfect school. However we have improved a lot of things and we are still working very hard to be better and better every day. Most of students are satisfied with training provided by Smart Aviation instructors. It’s also possible to manage a school and fly for airline if your base is at the same airport. Believe me or not but I have much more time than owners of other schools who fly private jets for example. I would like to end this discussion. If you want to speak to me personally you are very welcome to visit me in Poznan. All the best.

PS. SPULC is flying now;-)

Mateusz Dzialynski
CEO/HT
[phone]

[n2sK]

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

I believe that n2sk is representing another school. Such a big effort to write a long comment full of frustration is a strong evidence that we deal with somene from competive company. I guess that whatever is written here will be turned against Smart Aviation. There is no perfect school. However we have improved a lot of things and we are still working very hard to be better and better every day. Most of students are satisfied with training provided by Smart Aviation instructors. It’s also possible to manage a school and fly for airline if your base is at the same airport. Believe me or not but I have much more time than owners of other schools who fly private jets for example. I would like to end this discussion. If you want to speak to me personally you are very welcome to visit me in Poznan. All the best.

PS. SPULC is flying now;-)

Mateusz Dzialynski
CEO/HT
[phone]

No I do not. I represent myself and my opinions as someone that got shafted by your donut salesman and would like to see others avoid the same fate. And yet here we are, the same modus operandi, the same issues, and the same deflections.
You invite me to talk, but we have talked before, and our interaction was less than pleasant. When faced with criticism the tune changes and its always someone else's fault.
Now you dismiss everything that was raised as "someone is against us" while in reality you did not adress any of the issues raised.

And the best part is, something shared voluntarily and openly to be honest and avoid a situation where my personal opinions would be used against my employer at the time keep getting dragged on in an attempt to invalidate those same opinions and project them differently, sorry to burst your bubble but I work at a different aviation company now, however this time around I will keep the name to myself.

Lastly, I really have nothing against Smart or you really, as someome said, most of the complaints could be made of most flight schools. My issue here is the way those things are played and addressed by your donut salesman.

But anyway, I too wish to end this discussion. I had my say and raised the warning I felt was needed. It is unfortunate that some of the red flags raised before were allowed to mature into some of the issues seen today, but it is what it is.

All the best.

[MatFlyingFrenchman]

Reading this more or less interesting debate about Smart Aviation makes me want to write a factual review of my training there.

I did my MEP MEIR CPL at Smart Aviation from the 1st of March to the 29th of June 2022. No, it didn't take me 4 months to complete the course, but I had to split the training in several parts because I wanted to keep my job and I can only take one month off at a time. That was agreed with the school before I decided to go, and that was great from them to accept because it didn't make scheduling easy. During this 4 months period, my effective presence in Poznan has been a bit more than 8 weeks, but I was grounded 10 days during the MEP because I got covid. I can then say the expected timeline was met.

The quality of the training was very good, and the instructors are excellent. During IR, my instructor even taught me interesting tips that go beyond the legal requirements of the course : "airline-like" advanced use of automation, continuous descent arrival calculation from cruise level...

Yes, indeed, the administrative part is perfectible, but honestly they are doing their best to improve. I can not personally complain, because I chose to be tested under the French authority (DGAC), and once again it doesn't make things easy for them (complex paperwork, 2 different examiners to be arranged, very early notification of the skill tests etc). One of the people from the office even saved my exam slot when DGAC asked ULC to authentify my ATPL theory (passed in 2020 with Bartolini) on a Friday with the skill test scheduled the next Monday. She called the right person in ULC to assure a reply to DGAC on time. I know all schools in Poland don't accept testing under DGAC and that was another essential criteria for me to choose Smart.

If I can suggest something to improve, yes that would be maybe more anticipation in the scheduled maintenance of the fleet to avoid all twins to be out at the same time (unforeseen maintenance makes things difficult though). You can still anticipate by checking yourself the remaining potential before next check in the tech log of each aircraft and compare with the scheduled hours before your slot. In Smart, as richpea said, don't expect to be taken by the hand, but just learn how to make things work by yourself. It will prepare you for your career.

For what has been said about the salesman, I do not comment on people individually in public and prefer to debrief incidents in private, if there are. I would just say it happens that you don't like someone, and it happened to me, but in aviation you won't choose the captain you will fly with. If you act professionnally and as an adult you will be able to work with (almost) anyone, in the cockpit and anywhere else.

Yes, for the VFR charts, expect a few euros to be spent on that. Or just get them for free from someone who finished (if they are still valid). That's what I did, and pass them to the next (cool) student when you leave.

The airline assessment pass rate calculation method used by n2sK seems a bit too simplistic because it assumes 100% of the students of each class apply to Ryanair or Wizz Air. It is definitely not the case, and I believe the real figure is much higher than 38%.

In summary, yes I totally recommend Smart Aviation and I believe the ATO will continue to improve.

MG

[NotSoAnonymous]

Given the recent developments on this thread after I posted feedback of my personal experience, which was not negative as whole but rather the last part of my training - thus I didn't say "I don't recommend it AT ALL" but "I'm not ready to recommend it AT THIS POINT IN TIME" based on my very fresh experience and experience so far of other CURRENT STUDENTS. Looking at the feedback of other former students, several of which I know personally, I mostly agree with the description of Smart that many of them gave - meaning - you'll receive a high quality training with great instructors, in particular the ones I mostly trained with (Abdurrahman, Ahmed and Luca), these three are indeed second to none 😉. But, don't expect someone to take you by hand, you have to go after "what's yours" if you want to be done - meaning - finding an instructor by yourself, contact instructors by yourself and arranging flights with them personally given yours and their availability.

On the other hand, I also agree with many problems pointed out by n2sK that are not being addressed by the Smarts "management" - communication, planning ahead of time and transparency - core qualities of any business, specially in aviation. Not getting into details as n2sK did a pretty good job of that.

Dear Pilot1981 aka Mateusz, I believe that I can speak for all the people who didn't leave a perfect 100% 5 star feedback like you wished for, and who chose to point out gaps in their personal training experience - we are not trying to damage Smart Aviation reputation or throw mud at your ATO, but rather fill those gaps so that future students are happy with their experience at the school. So instead of focusing on that constructive and objective critique as something negative and personal, choosing to get into defensive mode and finding excuses, like you did in the PM you sent me after I posted my feedback (yeah I saw it) or in many replies on this thread, you should maybe focus that energy on listening and finding solutions to the problems pointed out. Playing tough and intimidating to everyone around is the actual opposite of being a good leader and manager. Your students and employees in particular will appreciate that.

Last but not the least, I never hid my identity on purpose, if I wanted to do it i wouldn't have been so specific about the unpleasant situation I had to deal with before finishing my training nor signed it with my initials.

All the best.

NK

[Pilot1981]

Thank you Nikita for your feedback. As I mentioned before we are working hard to improve a lot of things. There are many positive changes but still a far way to pure perfection. I have also never stated that I’m perfect or something. However our team is solid and there is no rotation at our school what means that our instructors are quite satisfied and don’t want to leave a place unless it’s an airline. Instructors you mentioned have been working for years in Smart. They are also my students I trained personally so I feel proud and happy about your positive opinion about them. By the way my comments under your training are also honest and helpful so please use them wisely and don’t treat them as a criticism but rather a list of good hints which will help you to become a better pilot. You are a really good guy, talented student but you must work harder on your attitude. All the best.

Mateusz Dzialynski

[hamburgerboy]

Originally Posted by richpea

I have no idea of the cost breakdowns and am loathe to talk any more about issues I have absolutely no knowledge about, but I can imagine several scenarios to do with both training practicalities and airport services costs where arguments could be made for foreign students to pay more... use your imagination. I'm not saying that's super fair and equal in a perfect world, and the reason for that is because I can also use my imagination to see how difficult it must be on average Polish wages to save up the amount needed for training. I have no idea how the extra money I paid is allocated or where it goes to, but I think its a bit hypocritical to go on about "fairness fairness fairness" and not pay service to the fact that the cheaper price for Polish nationals probably allows more Poles to realistically undertake flight training, whilst the price for foreigners still allows the majority of the foreign trainees to complete their training at an incredibly reasonable price. And I'm not asking anyone from Smart to explain it for me because I was super happy with the price of my training, and its quality for that price, regardless.

I don't to believe that the price difference is driven by SA's philanthropic approach towards their own. I presume that it's just a business model based on the purchasing power of the two markets they serve; locals and foreigners.
Regardless of the actual reason - I don't think that passport based pricing should exist in a 'first world country', especially one that is part of the European union.

So I am curious: why do the landing fees differ between locals and foreigners (more than double, acc. SA website). These fees are to be paid directly to the airport; they surely don't charge based on nationalities?

What's the story here, maybe the HoT could help us out with this one?

[Pilot1981]

All fees are calculated in accordance with avarage cost of each operation at EPPO for Smart Aviation. There is also a parking fee which is also included and depends on MTOW. Of course someone might have own airplane and pay fees directly to the airport according to AIP. Airport handling is also mandatory and costs 150 PLN + 23% VAT which is approximately €40 per person. We need to escort all foreigners. Local stucents usually have airport ID and don’t need to be escorted every time.

[hamburgerboy]

Thanks for your reply!

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

All fees are calculated in accordance with avarage cost of each operation at EPPO for Smart Aviation. There is also a parking fee which is also included and depends on MTOW. Of course someone might have own airplane and pay fees directly to the airport according to AIP. Airport handling is also mandatory and costs 150 PLN + 23% VAT which is approximately €40 per person.

Are these fees different for foreigners?

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

We need to escort all foreigners. Local stucents usually have airport ID and don’t need to be escorted every time.

This surely can't the main reason? A student with an airport ID was extremely uncommon. Apparantly getting one is an incredibly bureaucratic process taking months on end.


Please not that I am not here to slander the school, as described in my first post; my general experience wasn't bad.
I am just trying to get some clarification on the above, I think transparancy is especially valuable to future students.

So why do foreigners pay double the landing fee?

[Pilot1981]

90% of local students have airport ID. Obviously for Polish students this procedure is less complicated. Our foreign instructors had to wait couple of months to get. Also it’s not truth that foreign students pay double fees.

For a twin engine fee is following:
27,67 PLN including VAT
24,60 PLN parking fee
_______
52,27 PLN total including VAT

For a single engine fee is following
27,67 PLN including VAT
12,30 PLN including VAT
_______
39,97 PLN total including VAT

Avarage cost is calculated as:
(52,27 + 39,97) / 2 = 46,12 PLN

It’s more or less €10

[hamburgerboy]

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

90% of local students have airport ID. Obviously for Polish students this procedure is less complicated. Our foreign instructors had to wait couple of months to get.

I actually heard that getting the ID is a painfully time consuming process from Polish themselves. But I can't substantiate it with anything other than anecdotal evidence so I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

Also it’s not truth that foreign students pay double fees.

For a twin engine fee is following:
27,67 PLN including VAT
24,60 PLN parking fee
_______
52,27 PLN total including VAT

For a single engine fee is following
27,67 PLN including VAT
12,30 PLN including VAT
_______
39,97 PLN total including VAT

Avarage cost is calculated as:
(52,27 + 39,97) / 2 = 46,12 PLN

It’s more or less €10

Thanks for the transparency of the calculation, that is appreciated and more flightschools should do this. I do find the following interesting:

I am honestly curious: is it just an error on the website, do locals pay 45 PLN aswell? Or do foreigners exclusively pay for parking costs?
Does EPPO charge based on leaving/entering the parking spot? I would realistically expect a flghtschool to be charged on a monthly/yearly basis. Thanks for your response.

[Pilot1981]

All fees are very transparent. We try to avoid flying over inhabited areas so we do recommend to practice traffic patterns in EPZG, EPPI or EPLS where landing fees are lower. We do not force anybody to do all traffic patterns at EPPO.

[hamburgerboy]

Originally Posted by Pilot1981

All fees are very transparent. We try to avoid flying over inhabited areas so we do recommend to practice traffic patterns in EPZG, EPPI or EPLS where landing fees are lower. We do not force anybody to do all traffic patterns at EPPO.

Thanks for elaborately answering all my previous questions. The fees are very transparant indeed, case closed from my side.
On a sidenote: think I the payroll department made an error; I got charged exactly the same at EPZG and EPPO. Am I eligible for a refund on those fees? Please let me know if I need to contact HR. Kind regards

[Pilot1981]

Full stop in EPZG is exactly the same. If you have some doubts about charging more for T&G in EPZG during your training you must contact our office. It should be €2,5.

[ana pais]

Smart Aviation

I attended Smart Aviation school in April/22 for some hour building plus night rating and in October/22 for the CPL(A)/IR/MEP course and I recommend the school.
In my personal experience, it's was complicated to get availability for hour building (maybe another place for this one) but regarding the CPL(A) it took only a month to do the CPL(A)/IR course. I did my PPL(A) in a small aerodrome and I believe it has the advantage for the students to get some practice on flying in an International airport (the airport facilities ILS and so one, flying near international traffic, ATC comms, and to do the night rating you get experience to land with a typical airport lighting (which I could not get if I went to a small aerodrome) plus Poznan it's a lovely city, just the weather isn't the best to fly between november and february. The instructors also always tried their best to attend the CPL(A)/IR/MEP students needs, and I specially enjoyed my IR SIM sessions and my instructor Karol Wiśniewski which has a huge knowledge in aviation and really makes the effort for you to learn and be very well prepared for your future IR flights. Also, comparing the prices in Europe it has a much lower price.