Originally Posted by
richpea
Is it a scam if the information is freely available if you care to dig into their website and payment terms for more than 10 minutes? Its not like they try and hide the fact that foreign students pay slightly more than Polish nationals, or deny it, they just don't put a big banner up and loudly advertise that fact. I never bothered to ask for a particular reason as to why this was because, at the end of the day, I was still getting great training at a good price. By your logic, almost every university in the world is "scamming" foreign students as well... if you go to university in the UK as a foreign student you're paying up to half as much again as a UK national... if you're calling that a scam as well, then I'll have to agree, but then we're agreeing that its actually a super common phenomenon and isn't really all that worth talking about.
But I disagree, it is very much worth talking about! This is the exact behavior these companies are counting on to keep the scam going. I understand that taking on foreigners may cause some additional costs for a training institution, however, these should be clear additional charges, simply charging more for tuition makes no sense, it's simple discrimination. And yes, universities are a terrible example because they do this deliberately, however in their case it's different as sometimes they do offer additional services to foreigners, but overall is mostly still a scam tho.
But coming back to smart, after I read your post I went and checked, and the information is not nearly as open as you suggested... first finding the information for EUR vs PLN required me to open the page in both Polish and English, but honestly, that is understandable. What I cannot understand is the 10.000 EUR difference between the 0 to fATPL price if someone pays in PLN vs if someone pays in EUR 0.O, just... how?!
Can you justify this with tuition costs? How? how does a foreign student cost ten thousand more in tuition? but it gets worse! A landing costs 30 PLN and a touch and go costs 10 PLN, but for foreigners the charges are like this
PPO full stop landing 10,00 EUR PLN 45.00 price including taxes
EPPO touch & go 5,00 EUR PLN 22.50 price including taxes
Like, seriously? How can this be justified outside of a shameless money grab? How does a touch and go by a foreign student cost more? Does it wear the runway more?
It's not even a matter of conversion as the prices for foreigners are also stated in PLN and it's just more! Over 100% markup.
Originally Posted by
richpea
My ten-cents on the whole issue is that I have no problem with Polish students paying less than me, I'm taking advantage of their country to get something way cheaper than I could in my own. If the money is just going into the pockets of the management, that sucks and I'd be disappointed, but maybe it's going to subsidize the lower fees the Poles have to pay? And since the average earnings in Poland and way lower than what I get, I'd have no issue with that. I can't prove that is the case, but you can't prove the opposite either... so maybe you're just a pessimist and I'm just an optimist? I understand again if you're also from somewhere where the exchange rate and yearly salary is maybe not as beneficial as it is for someone based in Western Europe (or elsewhere, as myself), but I find it a bit hard to understand people who are begrudging others getting to pay less when (from my the point of view of my position) you are already getting a great deal financially
How innocent can you be? If Smart was subsidizing anything it would be a charity and would be tax exempt... Also, Your mindset of "if I can pay why not" is the reason why airlines now charge full price for type ratings, and pay-to-fly exists. While people are happy to pay when they are being shamelessly milked for every cent, it will just continue...
Originally Posted by
Pilot1981
Indeed we try to save paper because students print almost everything. With unrestricted access to the printer students print even ATPL books.
This is a management failure, there are plenty of solutions that do not involve creating unnecessary inconvenience for people that are trying to legitimately prepare for a lesson.
Originally Posted by
Pilot1981
We fly 1500h a month. Even with own maintenance it’s really difficult to provide service when 5 airplanes are approaching 100h inspection at the same time. This year we are expecting to approach 12000h of flight training. This is twice as much as last year. We invest in new airplanes every year but only 30% of our fleet is available. At the moment two twin engine airplanes are available. Third twin engine aircraft will be available in September. Next year we will focus to bring all our airplanes back to service including 4th Tecnam P2006T.
And yet this is not what we are told... Your donut salesman is very quick to point out that with own maintenance aircraft are always in tip-top shape and ready to fly quickly after going into maintenance... Also, having most of your fleet approaching high maintenance levels at the same time, is again, a management failure, this is why fleet managers exist and efficient coordination is required between maintenance and flight ops. What is the point of having 9 single engine and 3 twin engine aircraft if, by your own admission, only 30% of your fleet is available? so when the donut salesman tells us that you have 3 twins, should we imagine just one operating? When the donut salesman tells us 9 singles, should we imagine just 3? This is now what we were promised!
Also, in your whole post you did not address one of the main issues being discussed. what happened with the twins? SP-ULC mysteriously disappeared early this year, some people say it was a gear failure, some others that it was engine issues, all we know is that it was out for a long while, and only recently came back, after the gear up landing of the new twin. So what happened there? Was the recently failed twin cannibalized for parts to bring the other twin into flying to have at least two? And what happened to the recently failed twin? When is it expected back?
All this cloak and dagger around these issues really leaves a stink as a lot of people have been promised timelines that now look impossible to meet and there is little to no communication on the situation, the plans, proposed solutions, or way forward. Just empty promises of "will be done by X date" which at this point have been broken so many times no one takes them seriously anymore. Like "bringing all planes back to service next year" - this is unacceptable, the planes need to be back to service now! The students are waiting to fly now! If the capacity is not there why were so many people admitted into the courses? It is clearly an issue known by management, why then were the courses allowed to exceed the capacity the school has?
I sincerely hope this was not a money grab scheme to bring in students and spend their money fixing the known issues!
Originally Posted by
Pilot1981
We are also working to have a new, bigger office because present place is very crowded and our employees are being permanently distracted during their duties by students who come with all kind of problems and requests like buying maps for example. We are not a store. We have few vfr maps in stock so if someone must buy it immediately we sell it for 100 PLN. Obviously students can buy vfr maps and other items somewhere else at own discretion and lower price. It’s not a core of our business so this complaint is absolutety radiculous.
I am sorry?! Did the CEO of Smart aviation just classify a customer remark as "radiculous" (yes, with an a)?! I am actually glad you made this remark as your true colours are shining though... you started your post with all the bells and whisles of a standard "management addressing the situation", but it quickly devolved into this... If your clients have questions it is the staff's responsibility to answer them! And if clients are not correctly informed it is yet another management failure! This is not what people are told! It is never mentioned that selling charts is not a core part of the business, the way the donut salesman puts it there is the infrastructure in place to support students in anything they need, staff are always available to help! so if this is not the case, then stop making promises, or at least inducing people in error and create a clear division. You can hardly complain about clients asking questions if they have been misinformed in the first place...
Originally Posted by
Pilot1981
Most of our ME+IR+CPL students complete all training in 8-10 weeks as promised. However some students require more attention, time and preparation so this time might be exceeded in some cases. I would like to apologize all students who are not satisfied with our service provided. Hovewer I totaly disagree that quaility of training has decreased to compare with previous year. Most of our instructors including me fly for airlines.
Again, this is not what is being sold! The sell is 8 weeks! so you admiting to 8-10 weeks is already a sign that there are delays. However, the rest of your post is troubling, if students knew how to fly we would not need to pay you to teach us! Most students need more preparation and time, 8 weeks is very compressed, so does this mean that its 8 weeks but only if you already know everything?
Also, how come the CEO and head of training works for an airline? How do you find the time to manage the school efficiently? Judging by the amount of problems there are, you don't...
And you talk a big game about quality of training but you are buying an Extra for UPRT? How is that training quality?
It will be awesome and lots of fun for aerobatics, sure, but for UPRT? How is an inline seat going to be good for that? How are instructors supposed to help students and show them things while looking at their startle reactions? Even EASA clearly states that the cockpit configuration for UPRT should resemble an airliner, how can the extra even remotely achieve that?
Originally Posted by
Pilot1981
We are offering a really high standard of training and as an evidence of this I can only write that in July and August eight our former students have succesfully passed airline assessment at Ryanair and Wizzair.,
Ok, so assuming your numbers are 100% correct and indeed 8 students from 2 courses got jobs (and this is a big if as likely these were from more than two courses, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt), facebook posts, and actual observation determine that each course is 10 to 11 people. So assuming that those 8 came from a pool of 21 is reasonable. That is a 38% pass rate... Hardly something to brag about, most certainly not something to corroborate a "high standard of training" claim.
Also, didn't Ryanair recently make a post on linked in calling out schools that claim to have high standards and high hire rates actually having something like 38% pass rate?
Yes they did! Look:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...5126742491136/
Originally Posted by
Pilot1981
It’s a pleasure to be here and explain everything.
Everything? No... In fact, you left most of the hot topics unanswered...
What is the deal with the donut salesman? Why is he allowed to make promises the school can't keep?
What is the deal with foreigners being charged significantly more, even for things that have no relation to someone being a foreigner or not?
Are you actually using money paid by the foreigners to subsidize the training of the Polish students like someone was actually suggesting above?
While you are it, is the difference indeed to pay commission to the donut salesman?
What happened to the aircraft? Are they indeed damaged? Are delays likely as a result?