Smart Aviation Poznan
Join Date: Aug 2022
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Having successfully completed my training at Smart Aviation, I noticed the current thread and would like to comment on the school.
First of all, I would say it is not so bad, and you get what you pay for : your license, at a reasonable price. The location is great, for the big controlled commercial airfield and also for the city, nice and vibrant. Although I think conspicuouspilot is someone from the school, what has been said about the instructors is true. The 2 first ones mentioned are really great, but I don't know the third one. There are many others that are super professional, helpful and patient. I don't think it is appropriate to name them all here, but many thanks to them! The modern Tecnam fleet is also a good point.
When it comes to the bad sides, what has been said about the maintenance and planning is a reality. It is a complete mess, totally disorganized and hectic. It results in huge delays in your training, and a lot of struggle with the office. However, 2 of the 3 people working there are doing their best to improve things, but the last one is just super lazy and unfriendly. I think the cause of all this mess comes from 2 facts : lack of organization, and enrollment of too many students compared to the real capacity of the school.
What timebuilder said about the guy recently hired to take care of international students is again true. The expression "selling donuts" (!) is very appropriate to describe him. He is lying all the time with a very arrogant attitude. Landing fees are indeed not included despite what he says in his commercial speech, and he tries to justify cancellations due to maintenance/instructor unavailable by selling you more donuts. I even had a sim session cancelled for "weather reasons"! In order to help you understand the real background, he was previously at Bartolini and left for Smart Aviation when it started to become messy in Lodz... The instructors team don't like him at all, but they have to deal with it. The only thing this guy wants is to try to sell you his own (donut) coaching company that he launched with his business partner, the famous aviation psychologist also from Lodz. I know and (kind of) understand the reasons of his personal frustration towards aviation, but stay away from him as much as you can. I really don't understand why the owner (who is a good instructor and a skilled businessman btw) hired him.
I'm not saying you should not buy your training there, but at least go with all facts in mind. It is still a good deal for the quality vs money. Prices will increase by 10% in September though. Is it because of inflation or because the donut seller has now imposed the white shirt/black tie dress code? No one knows.
First of all, I would say it is not so bad, and you get what you pay for : your license, at a reasonable price. The location is great, for the big controlled commercial airfield and also for the city, nice and vibrant. Although I think conspicuouspilot is someone from the school, what has been said about the instructors is true. The 2 first ones mentioned are really great, but I don't know the third one. There are many others that are super professional, helpful and patient. I don't think it is appropriate to name them all here, but many thanks to them! The modern Tecnam fleet is also a good point.
When it comes to the bad sides, what has been said about the maintenance and planning is a reality. It is a complete mess, totally disorganized and hectic. It results in huge delays in your training, and a lot of struggle with the office. However, 2 of the 3 people working there are doing their best to improve things, but the last one is just super lazy and unfriendly. I think the cause of all this mess comes from 2 facts : lack of organization, and enrollment of too many students compared to the real capacity of the school.
What timebuilder said about the guy recently hired to take care of international students is again true. The expression "selling donuts" (!) is very appropriate to describe him. He is lying all the time with a very arrogant attitude. Landing fees are indeed not included despite what he says in his commercial speech, and he tries to justify cancellations due to maintenance/instructor unavailable by selling you more donuts. I even had a sim session cancelled for "weather reasons"! In order to help you understand the real background, he was previously at Bartolini and left for Smart Aviation when it started to become messy in Lodz... The instructors team don't like him at all, but they have to deal with it. The only thing this guy wants is to try to sell you his own (donut) coaching company that he launched with his business partner, the famous aviation psychologist also from Lodz. I know and (kind of) understand the reasons of his personal frustration towards aviation, but stay away from him as much as you can. I really don't understand why the owner (who is a good instructor and a skilled businessman btw) hired him.
I'm not saying you should not buy your training there, but at least go with all facts in mind. It is still a good deal for the quality vs money. Prices will increase by 10% in September though. Is it because of inflation or because the donut seller has now imposed the white shirt/black tie dress code? No one knows.
Hi Sir. If you look at the above users, most of them have 1 or 2 posts too. It's okay to have different opinions, we are not the same. And if you read my post, there is some criticism in it too. Cheers.
P.S. I'm not the owner and did not get any bribe for this, just had a really pleasant experience. End of discussion from my side.
P.S. I'm not the owner and did not get any bribe for this, just had a really pleasant experience. End of discussion from my side.
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I also forgot to mention they will sell you the Poland VFR charts for 100 zlotys each, yes the ones you find for 59 zlotys on dlapilota.pl. Of course, you have to pay by cash only, and don't expect a receipt! Where does the money go?!
But please guys, obey the number 1 rule that is displayed on the walls of the briefing room : do not post bad comments on PPrune/Google.
I finished my CPL and MEIR at Smart Aviation Poznan in May and would recommend the school.
Positives:
Smart Aviation has a great fleet of Tecnam single and multi-engine aircraft, all relatively new and with up to date nav and avionics packages. The cost of these aircraft per hour makes Smart an incredibly cost effective option, even if you want to do the entirety of training on the multi (which I did).
Instructors at Smart are generally excellent. Very effective educators with an abundance of experience and skill (as well as healthy senses of humor). The sim instructors are experienced airline pilots (but they don't pull any punches, so don't expect to have your hand held in there!)
Training at an airport like Poznan, controlled and with busy(er) airspace, is a big step up from what most modular pilots are used to and is a real benefit when moving on to MCC etc.
For me, being a native English speaker, there was an added bonus of having to get accustomed to communicating with air traffic services who were not native English speakers, this is an important skill that will definitely be a help later in my career.
Added bonus:
Poznan is a great little city, very picturesque with good restaurants and bars, some interesting things to do on off days, and accommodation is a reasonable price. I really enjoyed my time there.
Things to be aware of:
When you choose Smart you need to be aware that you are trading something for the incredibly reasonable price, that is administration. As others have described/complained about, the organization of aircraft scheduling and awareness of where trainees are in their program is not always brilliant. That said, most of the trainees on my course finished their licenses in between 6 to 8 weeks, which is what the school quote, and is a very reasonable timescale. It is up to the student to make sure that they are on course, and you do have to spend a certain amount of time pushing the instructors and chasing office staff to schedule your flying. However, given how reasonable the price is, I'm not sure that I can particularly raise this as a negative, but rather an expected. If you want to attend a super organized flight school where everything is tightly scheduled and done for you, with a dedicated front office that will hold your hand, Smart might not be the place, but I suspect you will be paying much more money for your licenses. If you don't mind having to do some organizational footwork and some chasing up of people to get your flying time booked in, then Smart Aviation is an excellent choice, and great value for money.
If I was choosing again knowing what my experience at the school was, I would choose to go there again. In fact, I will probably be back to keep up my currency if I find myself needing to. I would highly recommend Smart Aviation, especially for the right kind of person. If you are expecting all singing, all dancing, everything on a plate, with dedicated student services, you may want to think twice about Smart as an option... but then I would also suggest that you should be expecting to pay a lot more for the kind of service you are expecting. If you want somewhere that is excellent value for money (and that probably prepares you more for the reality of a career in aviation as far as admin is concerned!) then Smart Aviation is a great option.
Positives:
Smart Aviation has a great fleet of Tecnam single and multi-engine aircraft, all relatively new and with up to date nav and avionics packages. The cost of these aircraft per hour makes Smart an incredibly cost effective option, even if you want to do the entirety of training on the multi (which I did).
Instructors at Smart are generally excellent. Very effective educators with an abundance of experience and skill (as well as healthy senses of humor). The sim instructors are experienced airline pilots (but they don't pull any punches, so don't expect to have your hand held in there!)
Training at an airport like Poznan, controlled and with busy(er) airspace, is a big step up from what most modular pilots are used to and is a real benefit when moving on to MCC etc.
For me, being a native English speaker, there was an added bonus of having to get accustomed to communicating with air traffic services who were not native English speakers, this is an important skill that will definitely be a help later in my career.
Added bonus:
Poznan is a great little city, very picturesque with good restaurants and bars, some interesting things to do on off days, and accommodation is a reasonable price. I really enjoyed my time there.
Things to be aware of:
When you choose Smart you need to be aware that you are trading something for the incredibly reasonable price, that is administration. As others have described/complained about, the organization of aircraft scheduling and awareness of where trainees are in their program is not always brilliant. That said, most of the trainees on my course finished their licenses in between 6 to 8 weeks, which is what the school quote, and is a very reasonable timescale. It is up to the student to make sure that they are on course, and you do have to spend a certain amount of time pushing the instructors and chasing office staff to schedule your flying. However, given how reasonable the price is, I'm not sure that I can particularly raise this as a negative, but rather an expected. If you want to attend a super organized flight school where everything is tightly scheduled and done for you, with a dedicated front office that will hold your hand, Smart might not be the place, but I suspect you will be paying much more money for your licenses. If you don't mind having to do some organizational footwork and some chasing up of people to get your flying time booked in, then Smart Aviation is an excellent choice, and great value for money.
If I was choosing again knowing what my experience at the school was, I would choose to go there again. In fact, I will probably be back to keep up my currency if I find myself needing to. I would highly recommend Smart Aviation, especially for the right kind of person. If you are expecting all singing, all dancing, everything on a plate, with dedicated student services, you may want to think twice about Smart as an option... but then I would also suggest that you should be expecting to pay a lot more for the kind of service you are expecting. If you want somewhere that is excellent value for money (and that probably prepares you more for the reality of a career in aviation as far as admin is concerned!) then Smart Aviation is a great option.
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Bittersweet ending (can’t recommend)
My story at Smart Aviation started in March 2021, at the peak of the pandemic. I signed up for a full-time 0 - ATPL program and from the very first day there I couldn’t be happier with the experience I was living, as I encountered a modern new fleet equipped with a glass cockpit, operating entirely from Poznan International Airport in the middle of A320’s, 737’s and other gems - that’s a combination you most probably won’t find anywhere else in Europe. Given the fact that it’s a modular course, every single stage had to be done separately and in a certain order, starting from PPL which I managed to finish in less than 3 months from the moment I put my feet in the school for the first time.
Once I received my PPL license (end of May 2021), I started doing my time building while preparing in parallel for the ATPL exams. In December I took a 2-week refresher course with KSA100 and continued my preparation for the freshly updated ECQB 2021+, having started my exams in March 2022. Up until this point I was really happy with the training and had zero issues with the school or someone from the school. In May 2022, 1 week before attending my last 3 ATPL exams, I decided to sign up for the May ME/IR/CPL class, just to make sure I would continue my training right after I finished my ATPLs. To my surprise, I found myself inserted in a class with another 12 people, way above the school's capacity and recommended by the instructors as I later found out when talking with some of them, especially when there were already students delayed from previous sessions.
Once my ATPLs were done in mid-May (as well as a free unauthorized advertisement of my success), I jumped straight away to the ME and began my practical training while combining it with the last time building hours I had to do for the minimum license issue requirements. To get an airplane for TB at this point was already a nightmare as the school was getting more students than ever and some airplanes were down for an undetermined period, apart from the fact that the instructors have priority bookings and the maintenance wasn’t being planned in advance. If it wasn’t for the good and healthy relationship I had with some instructors I would probably still be trying to find slots to finish my TB.
On 20ish of June, I had my first sim sessions scheduled, having done ME + BIFM + 1 SE CPL flight so far. These were very well scheduled by the responsible instructor and I had all my sim sessions completed by July 3rd, 15 days before my scheduled final exam (booked 3 weeks before).
The real struggle began with finding an IR instructor - not only you’re responsible for finding it yourself by contacting every single one of them individually (I contacted 5 or 6), but also I ended up finding there were no instructors available either because they had their normal job or they were already filled with students with long waitlists. With the suggestion of the guys from the office, I contacted the head of training who promptly offered to be my IR instructor. Our first two flights were OK and about 10 days before my skill test I had about 3h of IR left to do and my CPL ME which was already scheduled with another instructor. To not lose the proficiency in flying IR, I asked the head of training to schedule our last flight a couple of days before my ST to which he agreed. In the week before my ST, I was in constant contact with the instructor who knew about my ST date and I was promised (I have it in writing on WhatsApp) that we would fly 3 days before my ST, on Thursday (my ST was scheduled on Monday).
When Thursday came, 3 days before my ST, I receive a message from the head of training stating that he wouldn’t be able to fly with me, without any apparent reason, while having another student from June class without any exam pressure, scheduled 4 days during that week with slots of up to 10h each. When confronted with that and asked to put me in the place of that student (I was so desperate that I was already BEGGING to be scheduled), he started to find BS excuses on why not and why I should find another instructor while behaving like an immature child (sending “don’t care” emojis and so on), when he knew precisely about my situation and the instructors (un)availability at this point. As per his request, I contacted two other instructors stating that my main instructor didn’t care about me and BEGGING once again to get a slot with them, to which I got a negative answer as expected. Not knowing what to do at that point, I contacted the guys from the office who promptly got onto the problem and did their best to help me find a solution. Surprise surprise, 10 minutes after I sent that message to other instructors, one of them forwarded it to the head of training and I was already being threatened by him “to be very careful when sending this type of messages” - just imagine, being threatened by the head of training and the owner of the school after paying tens of thousands of € for telling the truth. It escalated even further when the office got an order from the head of training to cancel my ST for personal reasons. Of course, I couldn’t leave it that way so I decided to travel to the school to have a face-to-face chat. In the middle of my trip, I get a message from the HoT saying that he put me in the place of the other student scheduled previously on Saturday and the plan for that flight. Now my question is, was it that hard to do it from the very beginning without this circus? Was it necessary to ruin my entire day just to end up getting where we should have been at the very start? It just doesn’t come to my mind how after so many positive moments that I lived during my training, it would end up this way.
Of course, surprises never come isolated, so the following day, on Friday, I got a message from the instructor who forwarded THAT message to HoT, saying that he had a 2h slot for me if I could be at the airport in 1 hour. Assuming that my main instructor just convinced this one to fly with me so that he would spend less time with me on Saturday, I didn’t think twice and made that flight. Saturday came and I was at the airport to prepare for my flight 1h15 before the starting time of my slot. Having everything prepared and already passed the start hour of my slot, there was no instructor and no message, warning me that he would be late. It was about 1h30 after my slot was supposed to start when he appeared (if you ever fly with him just get used to waiting a lot, sometimes even hours without any notice). When I reminded him that we only had 1.5h left to do as I did 2h with the other instructor the previous day, he got pissed stating that he doesn’t fly with students of other instructors (although we already had 2 flights done together) and that I couldn’t have flown with the other instructor - that just shows how good is the communication between instructors on subjects that matter, i.e., training. All in all, we made this last flight and my ME/IR/CPL training was finished in 11 weeks (unlike the promised 8) with a lot of pressing on the school.
Since the beginning of 2022, I started hearing many complaints from fellow student colleagues, either because they were not getting what they were promised by the main salesman (with whom you have your first contact) or a particular set of problems that happened with me. The last weeks there showed me how toxic is the environment I heard a lot about, as there is no management, planning or good communication inside the school. Smart Aviation used to be much better until the beginning of 2022. As soon as the inflow of students increased, no limits for the intake were established and the quality of training started to decrease rapidly. It’s a handful of really good instructors and the guys from the office who maintain the school afloat.
The price that I paid for the training was within the expected and told before signing the contract, although not all the prices were respected - I was overcharged 500€ for the ATPL theory and about 50€ (there were no changes in the AIP as well) in landing fees without any previous notice of course. Plus, the prices given to Polish nationals were way lower than the ones given to the foreign students, 5 - 7k€ lower for the entire program (milking foreigners is not that uncommon in Poland).
On a personal note, I’m not sure I’m ready to recommend this school at this point, even though I used to do it quite a lot, having brought at least 5 new students without anything in exchange. If you still decide to sign up, be aware that you will be doing it at your own risk and take all the golden promises that will be made to you before you start your training with a big pinch of salt, the size of a Mount Everest.
NK
Once I received my PPL license (end of May 2021), I started doing my time building while preparing in parallel for the ATPL exams. In December I took a 2-week refresher course with KSA100 and continued my preparation for the freshly updated ECQB 2021+, having started my exams in March 2022. Up until this point I was really happy with the training and had zero issues with the school or someone from the school. In May 2022, 1 week before attending my last 3 ATPL exams, I decided to sign up for the May ME/IR/CPL class, just to make sure I would continue my training right after I finished my ATPLs. To my surprise, I found myself inserted in a class with another 12 people, way above the school's capacity and recommended by the instructors as I later found out when talking with some of them, especially when there were already students delayed from previous sessions.
Once my ATPLs were done in mid-May (as well as a free unauthorized advertisement of my success), I jumped straight away to the ME and began my practical training while combining it with the last time building hours I had to do for the minimum license issue requirements. To get an airplane for TB at this point was already a nightmare as the school was getting more students than ever and some airplanes were down for an undetermined period, apart from the fact that the instructors have priority bookings and the maintenance wasn’t being planned in advance. If it wasn’t for the good and healthy relationship I had with some instructors I would probably still be trying to find slots to finish my TB.
On 20ish of June, I had my first sim sessions scheduled, having done ME + BIFM + 1 SE CPL flight so far. These were very well scheduled by the responsible instructor and I had all my sim sessions completed by July 3rd, 15 days before my scheduled final exam (booked 3 weeks before).
The real struggle began with finding an IR instructor - not only you’re responsible for finding it yourself by contacting every single one of them individually (I contacted 5 or 6), but also I ended up finding there were no instructors available either because they had their normal job or they were already filled with students with long waitlists. With the suggestion of the guys from the office, I contacted the head of training who promptly offered to be my IR instructor. Our first two flights were OK and about 10 days before my skill test I had about 3h of IR left to do and my CPL ME which was already scheduled with another instructor. To not lose the proficiency in flying IR, I asked the head of training to schedule our last flight a couple of days before my ST to which he agreed. In the week before my ST, I was in constant contact with the instructor who knew about my ST date and I was promised (I have it in writing on WhatsApp) that we would fly 3 days before my ST, on Thursday (my ST was scheduled on Monday).
When Thursday came, 3 days before my ST, I receive a message from the head of training stating that he wouldn’t be able to fly with me, without any apparent reason, while having another student from June class without any exam pressure, scheduled 4 days during that week with slots of up to 10h each. When confronted with that and asked to put me in the place of that student (I was so desperate that I was already BEGGING to be scheduled), he started to find BS excuses on why not and why I should find another instructor while behaving like an immature child (sending “don’t care” emojis and so on), when he knew precisely about my situation and the instructors (un)availability at this point. As per his request, I contacted two other instructors stating that my main instructor didn’t care about me and BEGGING once again to get a slot with them, to which I got a negative answer as expected. Not knowing what to do at that point, I contacted the guys from the office who promptly got onto the problem and did their best to help me find a solution. Surprise surprise, 10 minutes after I sent that message to other instructors, one of them forwarded it to the head of training and I was already being threatened by him “to be very careful when sending this type of messages” - just imagine, being threatened by the head of training and the owner of the school after paying tens of thousands of € for telling the truth. It escalated even further when the office got an order from the head of training to cancel my ST for personal reasons. Of course, I couldn’t leave it that way so I decided to travel to the school to have a face-to-face chat. In the middle of my trip, I get a message from the HoT saying that he put me in the place of the other student scheduled previously on Saturday and the plan for that flight. Now my question is, was it that hard to do it from the very beginning without this circus? Was it necessary to ruin my entire day just to end up getting where we should have been at the very start? It just doesn’t come to my mind how after so many positive moments that I lived during my training, it would end up this way.
Of course, surprises never come isolated, so the following day, on Friday, I got a message from the instructor who forwarded THAT message to HoT, saying that he had a 2h slot for me if I could be at the airport in 1 hour. Assuming that my main instructor just convinced this one to fly with me so that he would spend less time with me on Saturday, I didn’t think twice and made that flight. Saturday came and I was at the airport to prepare for my flight 1h15 before the starting time of my slot. Having everything prepared and already passed the start hour of my slot, there was no instructor and no message, warning me that he would be late. It was about 1h30 after my slot was supposed to start when he appeared (if you ever fly with him just get used to waiting a lot, sometimes even hours without any notice). When I reminded him that we only had 1.5h left to do as I did 2h with the other instructor the previous day, he got pissed stating that he doesn’t fly with students of other instructors (although we already had 2 flights done together) and that I couldn’t have flown with the other instructor - that just shows how good is the communication between instructors on subjects that matter, i.e., training. All in all, we made this last flight and my ME/IR/CPL training was finished in 11 weeks (unlike the promised 8) with a lot of pressing on the school.
Since the beginning of 2022, I started hearing many complaints from fellow student colleagues, either because they were not getting what they were promised by the main salesman (with whom you have your first contact) or a particular set of problems that happened with me. The last weeks there showed me how toxic is the environment I heard a lot about, as there is no management, planning or good communication inside the school. Smart Aviation used to be much better until the beginning of 2022. As soon as the inflow of students increased, no limits for the intake were established and the quality of training started to decrease rapidly. It’s a handful of really good instructors and the guys from the office who maintain the school afloat.
The price that I paid for the training was within the expected and told before signing the contract, although not all the prices were respected - I was overcharged 500€ for the ATPL theory and about 50€ (there were no changes in the AIP as well) in landing fees without any previous notice of course. Plus, the prices given to Polish nationals were way lower than the ones given to the foreign students, 5 - 7k€ lower for the entire program (milking foreigners is not that uncommon in Poland).
On a personal note, I’m not sure I’m ready to recommend this school at this point, even though I used to do it quite a lot, having brought at least 5 new students without anything in exchange. If you still decide to sign up, be aware that you will be doing it at your own risk and take all the golden promises that will be made to you before you start your training with a big pinch of salt, the size of a Mount Everest.
NK
Join Date: Aug 2022
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Recommend the place, but not to everyone
Due to renewed acitivity I'd like to give my 2 cents on my cplmeir training at SA:
I had a good experience with the school. Poznan is a terrific place to stay and the facilities of the school are good. The planes are mostly new, yet used.
The practical and theoretical instruction is great, especially the IR sim sessions from KW are of high quality. The instructors and office staff are all very friendly.
I recommend the school for cplmeir - but not to everyone. Here is why:
At this school you control your own fate; if you run in to trouble due to poor scheduling/maintenance/instructor availability/... - and you will - noone from the school (except some instructors) will take initiative to inform you, let alone solve it for you.
So be proactive and pragmatic if you want to get your training done, noone will hold your hand. So be on top of things from minute 1, don't passively wait and see. Don't expect to be taken care of - momma's boys look elsewhere.
That being said, the overall management (scheduling/administration/communications/...) of the school is a mess; displaying a total lack of anticipation. It is being run like a lemonade stand. Problems are being solved as they come but never grasped at the root.
However at a price of 17.5k I didn't expect anything more than good flight training, which I got plenty at Smart. I would like to emphasize (and to all the instructors' credit) that the flight training was outstanding.
I finished on time and almost exactly on budget, but it did require some initiative on my part. No hidden fees or whatever, everything was quite transparant (unlike for others?). So in the end I am a happy customer.
To the school:
Radically reorganize the entire management philosophy and run the place like a professional company. All the elements of a potential flight training goldmine are there.
PS. The message on the wall said something like 'if you are happy with your training post it on pprune' and not 'do not post bad comments on PPRuNe/Google' like a previous poster said.
At least keep the feedback honest boys...
I had a good experience with the school. Poznan is a terrific place to stay and the facilities of the school are good. The planes are mostly new, yet used.
The practical and theoretical instruction is great, especially the IR sim sessions from KW are of high quality. The instructors and office staff are all very friendly.
I recommend the school for cplmeir - but not to everyone. Here is why:
At this school you control your own fate; if you run in to trouble due to poor scheduling/maintenance/instructor availability/... - and you will - noone from the school (except some instructors) will take initiative to inform you, let alone solve it for you.
So be proactive and pragmatic if you want to get your training done, noone will hold your hand. So be on top of things from minute 1, don't passively wait and see. Don't expect to be taken care of - momma's boys look elsewhere.
That being said, the overall management (scheduling/administration/communications/...) of the school is a mess; displaying a total lack of anticipation. It is being run like a lemonade stand. Problems are being solved as they come but never grasped at the root.
However at a price of 17.5k I didn't expect anything more than good flight training, which I got plenty at Smart. I would like to emphasize (and to all the instructors' credit) that the flight training was outstanding.
I finished on time and almost exactly on budget, but it did require some initiative on my part. No hidden fees or whatever, everything was quite transparant (unlike for others?). So in the end I am a happy customer.
To the school:
Radically reorganize the entire management philosophy and run the place like a professional company. All the elements of a potential flight training goldmine are there.
PS. The message on the wall said something like 'if you are happy with your training post it on pprune' and not 'do not post bad comments on PPRuNe/Google' like a previous poster said.
At least keep the feedback honest boys...
Last edited by hamburgerboy; 19th Aug 2022 at 14:38. Reason: readability
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I came to Poznan solely for the practical part of the PPL, not for the other modules. I have flown 52 hours including the skill test. In the end it cost me €8873 of which €855 were landing fees. The advertised costs of the PPL practical (as listed on their pricelist at the time) were met, even in times of significant increase of energy prices - which was very fair. Your expenses are transparently registered on flight-by-flight basis based on your off- and on blocktime (the moment you start taxi till engine shutdown). You can always trace back if a mistake was made and it will be rectified by your instructor(s). Landing fees are very inconsistent for airports outside of EPPO, some instructors calculate the fees in PLN, some in EUR - some just don’t know how much it should be and calculate the EPPO fees on most fields. It would benefit them if there was more clarity on landing fees and agreements made between flightschool & other fields.
The timeframe in which you can finish your module simply depends on the instructor(s) you are assigned to and your availability. I was available 24/7, and I was lucky to have an instructor which was available 24/7 as well. I started flying in 2022 in the beginning of May and I was practically done by the end of June. Do not expect to finish your PPL practical in 8 weeks, but rather 10 weeks. There will always be ****ery with the weather, maintenance or if you’re unlucky, the availability of your instructor - but in general (speaking for PPL) the instructors are very active and ready to fly.
The location is unique. You should feel very privileged to fly on an airport such as EPPO for the price you pay. Often you will be inbetween commercial traffic: airbuses, boeings, embraers and whatnot. At first it might seem intimidating but soon enough you will realize they make **** landings as well, and you can even see it up close. I hope Smart Aviation can maintain their strong foothold in EPPO because it is a major selling point. Mostly you will be conducting your airwork north (towards EPPI) and west (towards EPLS/EPZG). My impression of aviation in Poland is that it is very alive: there are many fields in the surroundings where there is glider/general aviation activity, events and gatherings and such. In general the uncontrolled fields in Poznan are a lot of fun, but also a place to be on your toes; i.e it is not uncommon to see a car crossing the runway when you are about to touch down or people not responding on the radio - its part of the culture.
The fleet for PPL consists of Tecnam p2008s and p2002s. I would recommend you to fly both to get a feeling for low and high wing aeroplanes - they are vastly different in terms of responsiveness & ground effect. Benefits of flying both is that you get to fly more within a shorter timeframe. Maintenance of the fleet is done in EPZG, and since rotax engines require maintenance every 50- and 100 hour intervals, they need to be flown quite regularly to EPZG. Often your instructor (and thus you indirectly) will be asked to fly the airplane forth and back, and it will not always be in your favor. If it does not fit your syllabus, then simply refuse. It would be a nice gesture if Smart Aviation would offer a certain discount on maintenance flights - it would also stimulate a quicker turnaround on maintenance.
Some of the p2008s did have certain peculiarities but I have personally never experienced an unpleasant/unsafe situation. When you fly these planes a lot, with differing people and habits, it is to be expected. Maintenance checks should be anticipated better though, and instructors and students should be given the heads up if an airplane is about to breach the 50/100hr maintenance interval. I understand there are some challenges realizing that because you will have to digitize and sync the paper logbook but it would open up so many opportunities for improvements in planning.
As far as administration and planning I can only comment on what I have heard and seen, as a PPL student I did not have that much interaction with the office. If you want your planning to go right, you need to be proactive and monitor your own progress. The school does not do it for you, they clearly lack in that department. If you are behind your schedule, it is up to you to make yourself available and pull the office/instructors by the pants. I could not agree more with richpea.
My first contact with the person responsible for international intake was very pleasant. Sent an e-mail outlining my needs, scheduled a call and my questions were answered. When first arriving in Poznan he welcomed me, showed me around, and we had a chat. I did not experience any lying or arrogance - perhaps it is a clash of cultures when you experience the latter. I did not expect any other services from him, but I can understand that when you latch onto him as your ‘main’ guy to solve all your problems that you will be disappointed - but frankly there are other people for that. When it comes to landing fees, those are clearly written as separate from module costs in the contract I was sent.
Some other miscellaneous things:
- printing is a mess, alot of times there is no toner available because none was ordered, or someone printed the bible or, whatever. They should implement account based printing, supply everyone with a card & top up your own balance. Problem solved.
⁃ the school runs on Google Sheets. The open accessibility of (most) the logs is very prone to errors and manipulation. A move to a proprietary system where there are more checks and restrictions would eradicate most of the errors.
In the end I did not have much interaction with the flight school. The majority of your experience will be determined by your instructor, and luckily I had a very active & capable one that was able to get hit by a car and still fly a few days after.
The timeframe in which you can finish your module simply depends on the instructor(s) you are assigned to and your availability. I was available 24/7, and I was lucky to have an instructor which was available 24/7 as well. I started flying in 2022 in the beginning of May and I was practically done by the end of June. Do not expect to finish your PPL practical in 8 weeks, but rather 10 weeks. There will always be ****ery with the weather, maintenance or if you’re unlucky, the availability of your instructor - but in general (speaking for PPL) the instructors are very active and ready to fly.
The location is unique. You should feel very privileged to fly on an airport such as EPPO for the price you pay. Often you will be inbetween commercial traffic: airbuses, boeings, embraers and whatnot. At first it might seem intimidating but soon enough you will realize they make **** landings as well, and you can even see it up close. I hope Smart Aviation can maintain their strong foothold in EPPO because it is a major selling point. Mostly you will be conducting your airwork north (towards EPPI) and west (towards EPLS/EPZG). My impression of aviation in Poland is that it is very alive: there are many fields in the surroundings where there is glider/general aviation activity, events and gatherings and such. In general the uncontrolled fields in Poznan are a lot of fun, but also a place to be on your toes; i.e it is not uncommon to see a car crossing the runway when you are about to touch down or people not responding on the radio - its part of the culture.
The fleet for PPL consists of Tecnam p2008s and p2002s. I would recommend you to fly both to get a feeling for low and high wing aeroplanes - they are vastly different in terms of responsiveness & ground effect. Benefits of flying both is that you get to fly more within a shorter timeframe. Maintenance of the fleet is done in EPZG, and since rotax engines require maintenance every 50- and 100 hour intervals, they need to be flown quite regularly to EPZG. Often your instructor (and thus you indirectly) will be asked to fly the airplane forth and back, and it will not always be in your favor. If it does not fit your syllabus, then simply refuse. It would be a nice gesture if Smart Aviation would offer a certain discount on maintenance flights - it would also stimulate a quicker turnaround on maintenance.
Some of the p2008s did have certain peculiarities but I have personally never experienced an unpleasant/unsafe situation. When you fly these planes a lot, with differing people and habits, it is to be expected. Maintenance checks should be anticipated better though, and instructors and students should be given the heads up if an airplane is about to breach the 50/100hr maintenance interval. I understand there are some challenges realizing that because you will have to digitize and sync the paper logbook but it would open up so many opportunities for improvements in planning.
As far as administration and planning I can only comment on what I have heard and seen, as a PPL student I did not have that much interaction with the office. If you want your planning to go right, you need to be proactive and monitor your own progress. The school does not do it for you, they clearly lack in that department. If you are behind your schedule, it is up to you to make yourself available and pull the office/instructors by the pants. I could not agree more with richpea.
My first contact with the person responsible for international intake was very pleasant. Sent an e-mail outlining my needs, scheduled a call and my questions were answered. When first arriving in Poznan he welcomed me, showed me around, and we had a chat. I did not experience any lying or arrogance - perhaps it is a clash of cultures when you experience the latter. I did not expect any other services from him, but I can understand that when you latch onto him as your ‘main’ guy to solve all your problems that you will be disappointed - but frankly there are other people for that. When it comes to landing fees, those are clearly written as separate from module costs in the contract I was sent.
Some other miscellaneous things:
- printing is a mess, alot of times there is no toner available because none was ordered, or someone printed the bible or, whatever. They should implement account based printing, supply everyone with a card & top up your own balance. Problem solved.
⁃ the school runs on Google Sheets. The open accessibility of (most) the logs is very prone to errors and manipulation. A move to a proprietary system where there are more checks and restrictions would eradicate most of the errors.
In the end I did not have much interaction with the flight school. The majority of your experience will be determined by your instructor, and luckily I had a very active & capable one that was able to get hit by a car and still fly a few days after.
Last edited by thetubeman; 19th Aug 2022 at 14:20.
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Due to renewed acitivity I'd like to give my 2 cents on my cplmeir training at SA:
PS. The message on the wall said something like 'if you are happy with your training post it on pprune' and not 'do not post bad comments on PPRuNe/Google' like a previous poster said.
At least keep the feedback honest boys...
PS. The message on the wall said something like 'if you are happy with your training post it on pprune' and not 'do not post bad comments on PPRuNe/Google' like a previous poster said.
At least keep the feedback honest boys...
On the walls of a professional ATO you would expect more operational/safety info. In Smart, you have this PPrune/Google message (no matter what it exactly says), pictures of the appropriate white shirt/black tie exam dress code for their social media, and the booklet advertising the coaching company of the donut seller.
Maybe you are happy with that, but I hope your future employer will display more useful info.
PS : Of course there are a few operational info on the walls of Smart Aviation briefing room (so that you can say I am honest).
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The price that I paid for the training was within the expected and told before signing the contract, although not all the prices were respected - I was overcharged 500€ for the ATPL theory and about 50€ (there were no changes in the AIP as well) in landing fees without any previous notice of course. Plus, the prices given to Polish nationals were way lower than the ones given to the foreign students, 5 - 7k€ lower for the entire program (milking foreigners is not that uncommon in Poland).
NK
NK
Oh yes, all of you pissed of at the "donut salesman", he and his partner got those 5-7k from you, hope the service they gave you was worth it!
Also, it is a common tactic from this team to pose as students here and make posts promoting themselves (Those of you old enough will remember this same thread in December of last year
), but there is a simple formula to spot the management lackey posts:- Low post count (all their high post accounts got banned last year)
- Usually targeted or pretending to be from the UK (a primary market for them due to a different thing they have going, Ortus is the name)
- Always very well formatted and put through a spell checker
- Even the cons and spun to make them look not so bad
So if you see these you know what you have.
One more thing, how has anyone not mentioned this yet? Are we going to talk about the gear-up landing that happened recently and put one of the twins out of action for the foreseeable future?
And apparently they just "forgot"? Some procedures going on there!
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It's not milking foreigners, its the commission they will have to pay the salesman that brings in the foreigners
Oh yes, all of you pissed of at the "donut salesman", he and his partner got those 5-7k from you, hope the service they gave you was worth it!
Also, it is a common tactic from this team to pose as students here and make posts promoting themselves (Those of you old enough will remember this same thread in December of last year), but there is a simple formula to spot the management lackey posts:
- Low post count (all their high post accounts got banned last year)
- Usually targeted or pretending to be from the UK (a primary market for them due to a different thing they have going, Ortus is the name)
- Always very well formatted and put through a spell checker
- Even the cons and spun to make them look not so bad
So if you see these you know what you have.
One more thing, how has anyone not mentioned this yet? Are we going to talk about the gear-up landing that happened recently and put one of the twins out of action for the foreseeable future?
And apparently they just "forgot"? Some procedures going on there!
Oh yes, all of you pissed of at the "donut salesman", he and his partner got those 5-7k from you, hope the service they gave you was worth it!
Also, it is a common tactic from this team to pose as students here and make posts promoting themselves (Those of you old enough will remember this same thread in December of last year
), but there is a simple formula to spot the management lackey posts:- Low post count (all their high post accounts got banned last year)
- Usually targeted or pretending to be from the UK (a primary market for them due to a different thing they have going, Ortus is the name)
- Always very well formatted and put through a spell checker
- Even the cons and spun to make them look not so bad
So if you see these you know what you have.
One more thing, how has anyone not mentioned this yet? Are we going to talk about the gear-up landing that happened recently and put one of the twins out of action for the foreseeable future?
And apparently they just "forgot"? Some procedures going on there!
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Discussing if the message is asking you to write positive reviews or to avoid posting negative ones makes no sense, it is basically the same meaning behind it. They want to influence their e-reputation, and conspicuouspilot's post is a pathetic example of this culture.
On the walls of a professional ATO you would expect more operational/safety info. In Smart, you have this PPrune/Google message (no matter what it exactly says), pictures of the appropriate white shirt/black tie exam dress code for their social media, and the booklet advertising the coaching company of the donut seller.
Maybe you are happy with that, but I hope your future employer will display more useful info.
PS : Of course there are a few operational info on the walls of Smart Aviation briefing room (so that you can say I am honest).
On the walls of a professional ATO you would expect more operational/safety info. In Smart, you have this PPrune/Google message (no matter what it exactly says), pictures of the appropriate white shirt/black tie exam dress code for their social media, and the booklet advertising the coaching company of the donut seller.
Maybe you are happy with that, but I hope your future employer will display more useful info.
PS : Of course there are a few operational info on the walls of Smart Aviation briefing room (so that you can say I am honest).
useless discussion.Fact remains that you are deliberately being dishonest mate… shame shame
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When I was there, I personally didn't notice any safety issue, let's be honest. Okay, I've heard about one pan-pan bingo story but that was an isolated case.
Also, it is a common tactic from this team to pose as students here and make posts promoting themselves (Those of you old enough will remember this same thread in December of last year ), but there is a simple formula to spot the management lackey posts:
- Low post count (all their high post accounts got banned last year)
- Usually targeted or pretending to be from the UK (a primary market for them due to a different thing they have going, Ortus is the name)
- Always very well formatted and put through a spell checker
- Even the cons and spun to make them look not so bad
So if you see these you know what you have.
), but there is a simple formula to spot the management lackey posts:- Low post count (all their high post accounts got banned last year)
- Usually targeted or pretending to be from the UK (a primary market for them due to a different thing they have going, Ortus is the name)
- Always very well formatted and put through a spell checker
- Even the cons and spun to make them look not so bad
So if you see these you know what you have.
About Ortus, yes it is the same dirty business with the same people, indeed targeting the UK market. I hope the tax administration will have a closer look at it one day...
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Fortunately I got into the school way before the salesman so I didn't have to deal with him at all (apart from the ATPL and MEP theory). And yes to the "milking foreigners" in Poland being standard even outside Smart - my initial Class I at WIML cost me 1830zl while the same Class I was being charged to the polish nationals at 1200zl, and that's in the beginning of 2021. So those 5-7k difference went straight to the owners pocket.
As for private business, any respectable business will charge foreigners the exact same as Polish nationals, and from my experience they do.
In this case, I am fairly certain it is to pay commission to the salesman...
However, if it is not, and foreigners are indeed being scammed for more, stay away, stay far far away... No matter what "reviews" may say lol
Last edited by n2sK; 20th Aug 2022 at 17:45. Reason: Forgot to add the quote I weas replying to
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The pasture has definitely gotten greener since he's left!
Last edited by enzino; 21st Aug 2022 at 10:09.
You say Toe-mah-toes, I say Toe-may-toes.....
Originally Posted by nlgm94
Oh interesting, I didn't know that, I finished and left the school before it happens. But I saw on Evionica that the twin engine fleet decreased from 3 aircraft to 1, and was wondering why with so many new students incoming. This will certainly result in new massive delays.
Depending on when you were looking there are a variety of explanations. When I was there they had just sold the oldest twin and were waiting for a brand new twin (which was very late, but arrived in June) so were down to 2, when they also had the undercarriage issue and also a fuel gauge issue on the twins. This led to a period of a couple of weeks when there was only 1 twin available. But what can you do, its aviation... tech issues happen. As far as I am aware they are now back to operating 3 twins (Unless the incident mentioned happened in the last 2 months... but then they should still have 2 twins available from the fleet of 3).
Originally Posted by n2sk
However, if it is not, and foreigners are indeed being scammed for more, stay away, stay far far away... No matter what "reviews" may say lol
I get that people have had some not great experiences at Smart, and empathize completely with anyone who found themselves on the wrong side of the "lack of admin" SNAFUS that happen regularly there. But a lot of students (myself included) also had good experiences and genuinely didn't find all that much to complain about... I've also heard nightmare stories from schools with high reputations in the UK and all across Europe, pretty much nowhere is perfect. If you think that every positive review is just the school setting up fake accounts to big up themselves, you can check my existence through Instagram, my username here is the same as there...
EDIT: So having had some personal correspondence, the aircraft incident was apparently after I had finished my training there... so fair play, that's something that is outside my knowledge. I'd just say that these things sometimes happen, its training and hard to second guess what happened in the cockpit. It may also have been a single engine aircraft that was sold, not a twin as I previously said. When I was there, there were two twins operational, and a third arrived just after I finished, this much I know for certain.
Last edited by richpea; 23rd Aug 2022 at 14:15. Reason: New Info
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Your two posts offer a well balanced perspective on Smart, well done. I agree that you can't have it all for 17.5k, but there are certain things that should be improved no matter the price.
For starters they could stop promising 8 weeks if they structurally struggle to keep it.
For starters they could stop promising 8 weeks if they structurally struggle to keep it.
Last edited by hamburgerboy; 23rd Aug 2022 at 17:58.
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Hi everybody. I’m very grateful for all your comments. It’s very difficult to satisfy all students and I admit that sometimes we are struggling with unexpected events what may slow down the training. However we still do our best to meet all promises. I would like to explain few things. For IR training we use ipads with foreflight app. All charts are up to date. Indeed we try to save paper because students print almost everything. With unrestricted access to the printer students print even ATPL books. We fly 1500h a month. Even with own maintenance it’s really difficult to provide service when 5 airplanes are approaching 100h inspection at the same time. This year we are expecting to approach 12000h of flight training. This is twice as much as last year. We invest in new airplanes every year but only 30% of our fleet is available. At the moment two twin engine airplanes are available. Third twin engine aircraft will be available in September. Next year we will focus to bring all our airplanes back to service including 4th Tecnam P2006T. We are also working to have a new, bigger office because present place is very crowded and our employees are being permanently distracted during their duties by students who come with all kind of problems and requests like buying maps for example. We are not a store. We have few vfr maps in stock so if someone must buy it immediately we sell it for 100 PLN. Obviously students can buy vfr maps and other items somewhere else at own discretion and lower price. It’s not a core of our business so this complaint is absolutety radiculous. Most of our ME+IR+CPL students complete all training in 8-10 weeks as promised. However some students require more attention, time and preparation so this time might be exceeded in some cases. I would like to apologize all students who are not satisfied with our service provided. Hovewer I totaly disagree that quaility of training has decreased to compare with previous year. Most of our instructors including me fly for airlines. We are offering a really high standard of training and as an evidence of this I can only write that in July and August eight our former students have succesfully passed airline assessment at Ryanair and Wizzair. Taking into consideration present situation in aviation market and huge demand for pilots in future I highly believe that these numbers will increase every month. Next month we are expecting a delivery of one more brand new Tecnam P2008JC and also Extra NG to offer our students AUPRT and aerobatic training. It’s a pleasure to be here and explain everything. All the best! Regards,
Mateusz Dzialynski
Head of Training
PS. Few photos of our extra ng:
Mateusz Dzialynski
Head of Training
PS. Few photos of our extra ng:
Last edited by Pilot1981; 23rd Aug 2022 at 17:48. Reason: minor mistakes
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.... We are also working to have a new, bigger office because present place is very crowded and our employees are being permanently distracted during their duties by students who come with all kind of problems and requests like buying maps for example. We are not a store. We have few vfr maps in stock so if someone must buy it immediately we sell it for 100 PLN. Obviously students can buy vfr maps and other items somewhere else at own discretion and lower price. It’s not a core of our business so this complaint is absolutety radiculous....
Nothing is communicated to the students with regards to the required materials before the start of the course. One could reasonably expect a 10 euro map to be included in a 17.5k course. Especially when the ATO tailors to foreign students with an in-and-out course in '8 weeks'.
In the current situation the students get surprised and struggle to get a VFR map in time for the VFR flying.
This issue could easily be alleviated by commucating to the students that they require VFR map(s), preferrably before the course starts, and provide some info on where to buy them in Poland. A small effort.
Last edited by hamburgerboy; 24th Aug 2022 at 05:20.
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During IR and VFR Preparation course students get all information what is needed. Maps can be purchased directly from PANSA or aviation stores but most of students prefer to have them quickly. We do not force students to buy it at school. It’s just an option. The same is at the airport. You don’t have to buy a sandwich for 10€. You can buy the same for 2,5€ at grocery. All the best.
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During IR and VFR Preparation course students get all information what is needed. Maps can be purchased directly from PANSA or aviation stores but most of students prefer to have them quickly. We do not force students to buy it at school. It’s just an option. The same is at the airport. You don’t have to buy a sandwich for 10€. You can buy the same for 2,5€ at grocery. All the best.
But the charts are only a small detail in the whole thing. Feedback should be perceived as a gift rather than an attack that is to be defended. The students describe a lot of common problems in their feedbacks. I would suggest to adress them instead of the future fleet and courses.