Looking to start ATPL theory
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Many thanks again for the helpful responses.
Richard, thanks for the pointer - will take it into account. I hadn't realised they removed the option to opt out of the Ipad software on their website.
Paco, sorry, I meant two weeks per module was too long. As far as I can tell, Propilot meet the mandatory classroom time within 12 days of attendence, CATS in 15 days, and BGS in 20 days (not counting the weekends where you'd probably still be staying in Cheddar and paying for the accommodation). I've asked BGS and they've said there is definitely no alternative to the 2 x 2 weeks they offer at the moment.
Ford Cortina, I have reviewed my options and I will probably be able to commit a bit more time than originally intended. It should hopefully be doable - if for whatever reason I cannot get it done in that time frame, I can stretch the last part out a little longer and still be well within the 18 months EASA set. The only disadvantages would be the length of time between the second and third modules (assuming I go for the 3 module course at either CATS or ProPilot), and having to delay my CPL/IR for another year - it's not ideal but isn't the end of the world. But that would be a 'backup' and it would definitely be my aim to have everything complete by the end of July or August. I realise that would require a great deal of effort on my part.
Richard, thanks for the pointer - will take it into account. I hadn't realised they removed the option to opt out of the Ipad software on their website.
Paco, sorry, I meant two weeks per module was too long. As far as I can tell, Propilot meet the mandatory classroom time within 12 days of attendence, CATS in 15 days, and BGS in 20 days (not counting the weekends where you'd probably still be staying in Cheddar and paying for the accommodation). I've asked BGS and they've said there is definitely no alternative to the 2 x 2 weeks they offer at the moment.
Ford Cortina, I have reviewed my options and I will probably be able to commit a bit more time than originally intended. It should hopefully be doable - if for whatever reason I cannot get it done in that time frame, I can stretch the last part out a little longer and still be well within the 18 months EASA set. The only disadvantages would be the length of time between the second and third modules (assuming I go for the 3 module course at either CATS or ProPilot), and having to delay my CPL/IR for another year - it's not ideal but isn't the end of the world. But that would be a 'backup' and it would definitely be my aim to have everything complete by the end of July or August. I realise that would require a great deal of effort on my part.
Last edited by Odai; 13th Feb 2013 at 17:28.
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Paco, looking at the website it seems to imply (it's not too clear) there are three modules, and that each one has a two week revision course associated with it?
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If it's unclear I will amend it, but if you look at the calendar page you will see that module 1 is in the first week, and modules 2/3 are covered in the second, in the last two weeks of every month. That's 9-10 working days in total. You can appear one month for module 1, and another for module 2 and yet another for module 3.
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Thanks, that clears it up. Can I ask how you split up the subjects, what materials you use for teaching the course etc, and if there is any flexibility with regards to pricing options (opting in/out for manuals/software etc)?
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Module 1 (covered in first week)
HPL
POF
AGK
Instruments
Module 2 (covered in 2nd week)
Law
Ops
RNAV
Met
Comms (I & V)
Module 3 (also 2nd week)
Nav
M&B
FPM
Perf
The above order is how we can get the whole syllabus inside 750 pages - there's no repetition.
They are our (my!) own notes, which are also used by Embry-Riddle, the RAF (PPL version), Transport Canada (as a reference for exam questions) and many other places. You can read the reviews of the book version by clicking on the picture on the website.
You can't really opt out of the notes since they are part of our approval - if you sign on with one school and use another's notes, you are not following the approved course.
However, we will be launching a "no printed notes" option very shortly. It will only make a slight difference to the price, however, as the the real cost of the course is in the consolidation and support while you study. This will be more of a convenience item for students who are out in the bush and don't have space for paper books.
HPL
POF
AGK
Instruments
Module 2 (covered in 2nd week)
Law
Ops
RNAV
Met
Comms (I & V)
Module 3 (also 2nd week)
Nav
M&B
FPM
Perf
The above order is how we can get the whole syllabus inside 750 pages - there's no repetition.
They are our (my!) own notes, which are also used by Embry-Riddle, the RAF (PPL version), Transport Canada (as a reference for exam questions) and many other places. You can read the reviews of the book version by clicking on the picture on the website.
You can't really opt out of the notes since they are part of our approval - if you sign on with one school and use another's notes, you are not following the approved course.
However, we will be launching a "no printed notes" option very shortly. It will only make a slight difference to the price, however, as the the real cost of the course is in the consolidation and support while you study. This will be more of a convenience item for students who are out in the bush and don't have space for paper books.
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Paco, thanks again for your response, much appreciated. Can I ask which link you're referring to specifically for reviews of the manuals, as I cannot find it on the site. Could I also ask if you have any sample/preview/demo etc of your software? Lastly, any chance you have an approximate date on when you expect to have the no printed manuals option available, and how much cheaper it is likely to be?
With regards to what you mentioned regarding using a third-party's learning materials, if that material is also part of another approved course it wouldn't really matter would it?
I looked into using Bristol's ATPDigital software (priced at £500) but was told the software can only be activated on a PC twice, and that any activation after that (if outside the initial 12 months) would require a circa £50 fee. This makes it very expensive as a long term reference tool as I format my system every 12 months or so (assuming there are no problems in between that would necessitate a format). The only alternative I know of is Oxfords ATPL CBT - which is about £1000 I think. Anyone know of any others?
With regards to what you mentioned regarding using a third-party's learning materials, if that material is also part of another approved course it wouldn't really matter would it?
I looked into using Bristol's ATPDigital software (priced at £500) but was told the software can only be activated on a PC twice, and that any activation after that (if outside the initial 12 months) would require a circa £50 fee. This makes it very expensive as a long term reference tool as I format my system every 12 months or so (assuming there are no problems in between that would necessitate a format). The only alternative I know of is Oxfords ATPL CBT - which is about £1000 I think. Anyone know of any others?
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With permission of the mods, you can see it directly here:
Pilot Training & Ground Studies - Electrocution's Aviation Books
There is a link from the big picture on the front of the CAPT website for EASA Pro Pilot Studies - check out the big ad on the right.
As for cost reduction, it will only be in the order of £2-300 - the cost of the course is in the classrom stuff. The printing is only a small part of the story.
The other guy's approval means nothing in this day and age - logic would say it should, but you can't even subcontract an FTO like you could in the old days (when the trains ran on time). Sorry, it's an ATO now
You can use a disk imager like Acronis to take an image of your hard disk once you have it set up how you want, and every 6 months or so you can restore it. Windows needs to be reinstalled regularly anyway (which you obviously know all about) as it collects a lot of crud on the hard drive over time (it even used to slow down regularly about 3 in the afternoon, and you had to reboot to liven the memory up). Ah, those were the days....
Pilot Training & Ground Studies - Electrocution's Aviation Books
There is a link from the big picture on the front of the CAPT website for EASA Pro Pilot Studies - check out the big ad on the right.
As for cost reduction, it will only be in the order of £2-300 - the cost of the course is in the classrom stuff. The printing is only a small part of the story.
The other guy's approval means nothing in this day and age - logic would say it should, but you can't even subcontract an FTO like you could in the old days (when the trains ran on time). Sorry, it's an ATO now
You can use a disk imager like Acronis to take an image of your hard disk once you have it set up how you want, and every 6 months or so you can restore it. Windows needs to be reinstalled regularly anyway (which you obviously know all about) as it collects a lot of crud on the hard drive over time (it even used to slow down regularly about 3 in the afternoon, and you had to reboot to liven the memory up). Ah, those were the days....
Last edited by paco; 18th Feb 2013 at 15:24.
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Thanks again for your reply Paco, will take that into consideration.
With regards to simply making an image right after a format, it's something I've considered doing in the past but unfortunately sometimes I make hardware changes that necessitate a completely fresh install with a new software setup. The 2 install limit is just too restrictive and frankly it's absurd that the software is controlled in such a way when you need to splurge £500 on it to begin with (itself an extortionate amount). Unfortunately, this kind of thing seems common from my search for a suitable course - the Nordian ATPLs ebooks for example stop functioning after only 18 months unless you pay another extortionate fee (not clear on their website, but it seems to be the entire cost, about 560 euros) to keep them accessible!
I've had a look at a few more schools, and Flying Time was another I came across. I spoke to them and they're willing to be flexible and condense the revision courses to only 3 days for me. The person I spoke to wasn't too clear on how this is organised, but I'd obviously get a guarantee that this is definitely doable before paying up for a course as it would be one of the deciding factors for enrolling. They use the Nordian textbooks - does anyone have any feedback on these and how they compare to the others?
With regards to simply making an image right after a format, it's something I've considered doing in the past but unfortunately sometimes I make hardware changes that necessitate a completely fresh install with a new software setup. The 2 install limit is just too restrictive and frankly it's absurd that the software is controlled in such a way when you need to splurge £500 on it to begin with (itself an extortionate amount). Unfortunately, this kind of thing seems common from my search for a suitable course - the Nordian ATPLs ebooks for example stop functioning after only 18 months unless you pay another extortionate fee (not clear on their website, but it seems to be the entire cost, about 560 euros) to keep them accessible!
I've had a look at a few more schools, and Flying Time was another I came across. I spoke to them and they're willing to be flexible and condense the revision courses to only 3 days for me. The person I spoke to wasn't too clear on how this is organised, but I'd obviously get a guarantee that this is definitely doable before paying up for a course as it would be one of the deciding factors for enrolling. They use the Nordian textbooks - does anyone have any feedback on these and how they compare to the others?
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Be careful with the three days - there is a legal minimum of time in the classroom of 10% of the study time, which for the ATPL is 650 hours, so you must do at least 65 hours in an approved classroom.
As for the Nordian books, I believe there is a thread about them if you do a search.
As for the Nordian books, I believe there is a thread about them if you do a search.
Last edited by paco; 19th Feb 2013 at 04:27.
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OK - now down most likely to go for Propilot, but also still considering Oxford or Bristol. It turns out Flying Time won't be much use to me due to the way the course dates are organised.
The downside to Bristol are their two week courses at Cheddar being too long for me otherwise I guess I would have just opted for their offering, and Oxford ends up being very highly overpriced (although I wouldn't mind spending two weeks at Oxford as I love the place, not to mention being able to sit the exams in-house).
If I went with Propilot however, it would mean I'd need to invest in third party digital software as this really is a lot easier and quicker for me to get through. I'd still use the hardcopy books from Propilot to make sure I've covered everything in their course and maybe also occassionally to have a different perspective on some concepts. As I mentioned Bristol's ATPDigital would have been ideal but I cannot justify dropping £500 on something I cannot guarantee ownership of past 18 months. Oxford's CBT series is also very expensive at nearly £1000. Further, I get the distinct impression from other posts on this forum that their material goes into a lot more detail than what is relevant, and I wouldn't have any guidance on what exactly I would need to study. Are there any other software based solutions out there that I may have missed?
The downside to Bristol are their two week courses at Cheddar being too long for me otherwise I guess I would have just opted for their offering, and Oxford ends up being very highly overpriced (although I wouldn't mind spending two weeks at Oxford as I love the place, not to mention being able to sit the exams in-house).
If I went with Propilot however, it would mean I'd need to invest in third party digital software as this really is a lot easier and quicker for me to get through. I'd still use the hardcopy books from Propilot to make sure I've covered everything in their course and maybe also occassionally to have a different perspective on some concepts. As I mentioned Bristol's ATPDigital would have been ideal but I cannot justify dropping £500 on something I cannot guarantee ownership of past 18 months. Oxford's CBT series is also very expensive at nearly £1000. Further, I get the distinct impression from other posts on this forum that their material goes into a lot more detail than what is relevant, and I wouldn't have any guidance on what exactly I would need to study. Are there any other software based solutions out there that I may have missed?
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Apologies for bumping this thread, I just had a couple more questions regarding this and didn't think it worth starting a new thread.
I may have difficulties in completing the groundschool in the original timeframe intended due to how long it is taking to get started. I was originally hoping to sit my last exams in the September session. I may however end up doing only the majority of the course (in the case of the Propilot course, 2 out of three modules) by the September session, with the last exams (Propilot module 3 is AGK, Instruments, Ops) not being done until, worst case scenario, the September 2014 session.
This excessive timeframe raises a few concerns for me.
Firstly, if something happens to the training provider in that span of time, what happens with any training I have already completed with them? Will, for example, any passes still count? Would I have to do all the classroom time again?
Secondly, will the material I receive for subjects such as Operational Procedures become too outdated after that much time? This is referring to materials such as hardcopy manuals which obviously aren't updated after receipt, unlike software.
Finally, how would it look to a prospective emplpyer (eg airlines) if it took me, worst case scenario, 18 months to complete the exams from the start of study to the last exam, possibly with 12 months in between two of the phases? Or will no one look into that much detail?
I may have difficulties in completing the groundschool in the original timeframe intended due to how long it is taking to get started. I was originally hoping to sit my last exams in the September session. I may however end up doing only the majority of the course (in the case of the Propilot course, 2 out of three modules) by the September session, with the last exams (Propilot module 3 is AGK, Instruments, Ops) not being done until, worst case scenario, the September 2014 session.
This excessive timeframe raises a few concerns for me.
Firstly, if something happens to the training provider in that span of time, what happens with any training I have already completed with them? Will, for example, any passes still count? Would I have to do all the classroom time again?
Secondly, will the material I receive for subjects such as Operational Procedures become too outdated after that much time? This is referring to materials such as hardcopy manuals which obviously aren't updated after receipt, unlike software.
Finally, how would it look to a prospective emplpyer (eg airlines) if it took me, worst case scenario, 18 months to complete the exams from the start of study to the last exam, possibly with 12 months in between two of the phases? Or will no one look into that much detail?
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Your last problem is the more serious one. I am not aware of any provider likely to go down in the future due to gross mismanagement, like some recent schools have.
However, if they happened to get hit by a stray nuclear device, your paperwork could be taken up by another school without much problem - we did that with Dragon and with a few people from Cabair, and even PTC guys from Ireland got sorted with some schools in UK.
The material is not likely to be outdated - there is some revision of the syllabus due later this year, but don't hold your breath. After all, how many ways can you describe an altimeter?
Some airlines are enquiring of the study progress of some students (subject to Data Protection, of course). It is therefore in your interest to make a decision and get started. All this time you've been asking questions, you could have been a fair way into your studies. There are no bad schools in this country - it doesn't really matter which one you use as long as you have the right motivation. In the class, you have to do at least as much work as a distance learner.
However, if they happened to get hit by a stray nuclear device,
your paperwork could be taken up by another school without much problem - we did that with Dragon and with a few people from Cabair, and even PTC guys from Ireland got sorted with some schools in UK. The material is not likely to be outdated - there is some revision of the syllabus due later this year, but don't hold your breath. After all, how many ways can you describe an altimeter?
Some airlines are enquiring of the study progress of some students (subject to Data Protection, of course). It is therefore in your interest to make a decision and get started. All this time you've been asking questions, you could have been a fair way into your studies. There are no bad schools in this country - it doesn't really matter which one you use as long as you have the right motivation.
In the class, you have to do at least as much work as a distance learner.
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Morning Odai,
Time frame to get started can be very short. You simply pay the course fees (or part thereof, see below) and can get cracking straight away. If the brush-up timetable of the school in question doesn't fit with what you require, you might want to consider looking at another school. My provider (CATS) offer quite a bit of flexibility in this regard, with each of the three stages having three or four brush-ups per year. You can also chop and change subjects, and complete the exams in more than three sittings, if this suits.
In relation to the specific questions:
1. You are right to be concerned about your provider going bust mid-way through your course. To guard against this consider negotiating to pay, say, half the fees up-front and half on commencement of the final stage. This is what I have done. It doesn't eliminate risk totally but gives you some downside protection.
2. The main update recently has been the change from JAA to EASA, but not all the subjects are featuring EASA questions as yet (as far as I'm aware). Ultimately the underlying subject matter doesn't change that much, and question banks are a useful method of spotting new questions. I'm actually using JAA BGS materials for my course, and then cross checking the syllabus against CATS materials for updates in the run up to each set of exams.
3. Obvious not a voice of experience, but I can't really see why an airline should care about how many sittings you have taken, or the length of your course, so long as you have achieved first time passes and high scores in each subject. After all by definition to do this you must complete the course within the 18 month timeframe from first to last exam set by the CAA.
Time frame to get started can be very short. You simply pay the course fees (or part thereof, see below) and can get cracking straight away. If the brush-up timetable of the school in question doesn't fit with what you require, you might want to consider looking at another school. My provider (CATS) offer quite a bit of flexibility in this regard, with each of the three stages having three or four brush-ups per year. You can also chop and change subjects, and complete the exams in more than three sittings, if this suits.
In relation to the specific questions:
1. You are right to be concerned about your provider going bust mid-way through your course. To guard against this consider negotiating to pay, say, half the fees up-front and half on commencement of the final stage. This is what I have done. It doesn't eliminate risk totally but gives you some downside protection.
2. The main update recently has been the change from JAA to EASA, but not all the subjects are featuring EASA questions as yet (as far as I'm aware). Ultimately the underlying subject matter doesn't change that much, and question banks are a useful method of spotting new questions. I'm actually using JAA BGS materials for my course, and then cross checking the syllabus against CATS materials for updates in the run up to each set of exams.
3. Obvious not a voice of experience, but I can't really see why an airline should care about how many sittings you have taken, or the length of your course, so long as you have achieved first time passes and high scores in each subject. After all by definition to do this you must complete the course within the 18 month timeframe from first to last exam set by the CAA.
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In relation to question 1, your school going bust wouldn't affect any exam results you had already achieved since the CAA, not the school, is the exam provider. You would however need to find a new school to complete the minimum number of ground school hours, and to counter-sign your application forms for any remaining exams.
In relation to question 1, your school going bust wouldn't affect any exam results you had already achieved since the CAA, not the school, is the exam provider. You would however need to find a new school to complete the minimum number of ground school hours, and to counter-sign your application forms for any remaining exams.
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BGS are the the best by far IMHO when you go distance learning.
The previous poster was right a few hours a day and complete in six months is gonna be very hard work , if you think full time ground school is 6 months and they are in the classroom 8 hrs a day.
You are going to have to plump for the brush ups whther you want to or not they are a required aspect of the course .If you say you always study better alone think of it as learning to work and study with others , an ethos that will be a permanent part of any career you may have in the industry
The previous poster was right a few hours a day and complete in six months is gonna be very hard work , if you think full time ground school is 6 months and they are in the classroom 8 hrs a day.
You are going to have to plump for the brush ups whther you want to or not they are a required aspect of the course .If you say you always study better alone think of it as learning to work and study with others , an ethos that will be a permanent part of any career you may have in the industry
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Many thanks for all the responses guys.
Paco, do you mind if I ask about the specifics of accommodating those external students? For those who had already completed parts of the course, did they have to redo all the classroom hours from scratch, even for the subjects they had already completed (assuming the modular structure was different to yours)?
Taxistaxing, my main concern would indeed be the logistics of getting my studies finished rather than lost money if, God forbid, my chosen school were to go bust. My problem is that after this September I'll have very little time to study again until around June 2014. So having to redo groundschool hours to fit to another provider's course would be a big setback, assuming I can't get everything finished before this September.
DumpingTheRat, I am relying on my experience with my Physics degree helping out with the material. Everyone I've spoken to has said it should help considerably, considering the amount of scientific material in the course. So hopefully what I plan to do should be doable. If it isn't, I can make time summer next year to finish off.
Are there any other providers I may have missed? I can't seem to find any other than Oxford, BGS, Propilot, CAPT, CATS, and Flying Time - are these the only available providers?
Thanks again guys.
Paco, do you mind if I ask about the specifics of accommodating those external students? For those who had already completed parts of the course, did they have to redo all the classroom hours from scratch, even for the subjects they had already completed (assuming the modular structure was different to yours)?
Taxistaxing, my main concern would indeed be the logistics of getting my studies finished rather than lost money if, God forbid, my chosen school were to go bust. My problem is that after this September I'll have very little time to study again until around June 2014. So having to redo groundschool hours to fit to another provider's course would be a big setback, assuming I can't get everything finished before this September.
DumpingTheRat, I am relying on my experience with my Physics degree helping out with the material. Everyone I've spoken to has said it should help considerably, considering the amount of scientific material in the course. So hopefully what I plan to do should be doable. If it isn't, I can make time summer next year to finish off.
Are there any other providers I may have missed? I can't seem to find any other than Oxford, BGS, Propilot, CAPT, CATS, and Flying Time - are these the only available providers?
Thanks again guys.
Last edited by Odai; 13th Mar 2013 at 21:44.
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fair enough
Odai , yes without a doubt the physics knowledge you have will help with PoF, Perf, GNav possibly agk and RNav but remember it is not the level of difficulty that is the issue with the atpls' im thick as pig ****e and understand nothing about physics . Any idiot can pass the exams , it is the sheer volume that is the issue . The actual scientific material is actually in the minority when compared to the amount of pure knowledge to be acquired from the various other subjects most of which have no scientififc basis .
Good luck
Good luck