Is pilot still considered as a viable career?
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I utterly and wholeheartedly agree with the above posts.
Not that I'd know much about it really, being the young chap I am, but there are quite a few obvious risks in "putting your life and soul" into anything really nowadays, especially when considering an implausible career like that of a pilot's. Trust me, you'll most probably end up greatly embittered and disillusioned by going that way.
Don't get me wrong now, chasing their dreams is something every single person should do, but certainly not to completely devote their lives to such (questionable) dreams let alone thinking you're in some way a "special" or "superior" individual that major airlines call up for a F/O vacancy. You will need to have alternatives, you will perhaps need to be able to let go of your dreams before it's too late. I know people who have wound up in huge debts doing this, and wouldn't for the life of me like to see anyone else in the same situation.
In short: if aviation truly is the way you want to go (I'm one of these persons), don't dive forward blindfolded but instead have a backup plan, maybe some other education and a job just in case things go south. Also, as JB007 stated, it won't be long before all of the magic and wonder diminished when you do flying as a job. Remember that it's even better of a hobby and you can be thoroughly involved in aviation even though you didn't make any money out of it.
These are my thoughts. This post wasn't aimed to anyone personally so please don't take it as offensive.
Not that I'd know much about it really, being the young chap I am, but there are quite a few obvious risks in "putting your life and soul" into anything really nowadays, especially when considering an implausible career like that of a pilot's. Trust me, you'll most probably end up greatly embittered and disillusioned by going that way.
Don't get me wrong now, chasing their dreams is something every single person should do, but certainly not to completely devote their lives to such (questionable) dreams let alone thinking you're in some way a "special" or "superior" individual that major airlines call up for a F/O vacancy. You will need to have alternatives, you will perhaps need to be able to let go of your dreams before it's too late. I know people who have wound up in huge debts doing this, and wouldn't for the life of me like to see anyone else in the same situation.
In short: if aviation truly is the way you want to go (I'm one of these persons), don't dive forward blindfolded but instead have a backup plan, maybe some other education and a job just in case things go south. Also, as JB007 stated, it won't be long before all of the magic and wonder diminished when you do flying as a job. Remember that it's even better of a hobby and you can be thoroughly involved in aviation even though you didn't make any money out of it.
These are my thoughts. This post wasn't aimed to anyone personally so please don't take it as offensive.
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again, i agree with clunkdriver (people will start talking 
)
SinkRateSam, you do seem to appreciate the situation and good luck to you.
In the previous but one post I made the following assertion:
that is not postulation or guess work, but hard industry fact. Now, clunckdriver made this assertion:
Which again, is fact. In Europe right now, there are many pilots looking for work, the current market cannot absorb them. It is nothing to do with optimism, but hard reality. However, many countries worldwide are starting to shut down their doors to expat pilots in order to protect their own employment market and as a consequence it will only get tougher here in Europe as the available workforce stacks up.
)SinkRateSam, you do seem to appreciate the situation and good luck to you.
In the previous but one post I made the following assertion:
Right now, the market in Europe is saturated. There are a large amount of Low Cost carriers and long established 'legacy carriers' all competing in a well served and condensed market that has seen profitability slashed down to the bone. Coupled with that, is a regulatory base that is ever increasing, which not only further increases operational costs, it makes the market very hostile to new carriers as well as the establishment of new long term routes / city pairs.
Within this, flight crews are caught and as such the base for increased T&C's becomes harder and harder and available jobs become fewer and far between.
Within this, flight crews are caught and as such the base for increased T&C's becomes harder and harder and available jobs become fewer and far between.
Its a bit like real estate, Location, Location, Location!
Last edited by stuckgear; 8th Apr 2011 at 19:31.
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i really need to get me my own account...apologies for that...the brother is 16 and feels like your "slashing his dreams", or though he says... many apologies.
I too want to be a pilot ( the cabair pro pilot module which was what i was looking at) Any opinions on that?
I assume you feel its not worth the cash spent?
I too want to be a pilot ( the cabair pro pilot module which was what i was looking at) Any opinions on that?
I assume you feel its not worth the cash spent?
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Milton1995 (and bro) and others,
OK, first off ask yourself why you want to be a pilot.
The lifestyle ? - read the flybe thread or Easy threads in T&E and also the EASA FTL revision thread in R&N. The lifestyle you may imagine, wafting through a terminal, all buff in white shirt sleeves with stripes on your shoulders and ray ban aviators on your face, with a suntan gained from a layover with a raft of sexy flight attendants in some exotic far off land is an illusion. You're more likely to be pitching up at 5am pale and exhausted, in a beat up Fiat that you can barely afford the petrol for, to fly to the exotic location of Malaga or Prague with a plane load of chavs out for a p*ss up.
The chicks ? Partners these days don't wont to know a perpetually skint pilot who's perpetually anxious about his job 12 months down the line/medical/LPC, who will likely have to drop everything and relocate to some BFE part of the world at short notice to stay in work.
The job security? its gone. you're more likely to be a contractor with zero security who's services will get pulled out of peak times and as your experience increases along with your expected salary demands you'll be more expensive than a hog tied integrated/MPL candidate who'll have to fly for t0ss all because he cant take his licence elsewhere and there's a shed-load of guys behind him in the same position.
The money? see above points. go read the threads in T&E.
The travel ? holed up in an airport hotel for 21 hours, so exhausted that the closest you come to foreign interaction is CNN on the TV in your room before you crash out. a taxi into town is probably going to cost you your petrol money for that breaker Fiat, and besides, you've got four hours of time to play with or you'll be eating into your legal rest and you don't really want to eat out as you don't want to end up with the squits as you have got sectors to fly after your rest.
In respect of catching the flying bug, there is a world of difference between putzing about in a 172 out of your local airfield and flying for a living. Any wannabe needs to be realistic and treat the decision with the hard facts, not boundless optimism. optimism has no place in aviation both at the business level or the operational level.
You will find more useful information by lurking in the T&E threads rather than trading b/s in the wannabes forums.
You really want to have a secure job in aviation ? Get a degree in Law or Accounting and then specialise; then you can write your own ticket.
OK, first off ask yourself why you want to be a pilot.
The lifestyle ? - read the flybe thread or Easy threads in T&E and also the EASA FTL revision thread in R&N. The lifestyle you may imagine, wafting through a terminal, all buff in white shirt sleeves with stripes on your shoulders and ray ban aviators on your face, with a suntan gained from a layover with a raft of sexy flight attendants in some exotic far off land is an illusion. You're more likely to be pitching up at 5am pale and exhausted, in a beat up Fiat that you can barely afford the petrol for, to fly to the exotic location of Malaga or Prague with a plane load of chavs out for a p*ss up.
The chicks ? Partners these days don't wont to know a perpetually skint pilot who's perpetually anxious about his job 12 months down the line/medical/LPC, who will likely have to drop everything and relocate to some BFE part of the world at short notice to stay in work.
The job security? its gone. you're more likely to be a contractor with zero security who's services will get pulled out of peak times and as your experience increases along with your expected salary demands you'll be more expensive than a hog tied integrated/MPL candidate who'll have to fly for t0ss all because he cant take his licence elsewhere and there's a shed-load of guys behind him in the same position.
The money? see above points. go read the threads in T&E.
The travel ? holed up in an airport hotel for 21 hours, so exhausted that the closest you come to foreign interaction is CNN on the TV in your room before you crash out. a taxi into town is probably going to cost you your petrol money for that breaker Fiat, and besides, you've got four hours of time to play with or you'll be eating into your legal rest and you don't really want to eat out as you don't want to end up with the squits as you have got sectors to fly after your rest.
In respect of catching the flying bug, there is a world of difference between putzing about in a 172 out of your local airfield and flying for a living. Any wannabe needs to be realistic and treat the decision with the hard facts, not boundless optimism. optimism has no place in aviation both at the business level or the operational level.
You will find more useful information by lurking in the T&E threads rather than trading b/s in the wannabes forums.
You really want to have a secure job in aviation ? Get a degree in Law or Accounting and then specialise; then you can write your own ticket.
Last edited by stuckgear; 9th Apr 2011 at 09:46. Reason: spelling as usual!
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AH123,
People can generally only complain about the things they know about. The idea that the same people working in different jobs, having the same or different problems, is irrelevant to those people. The grass usually looks greener from a distance.
Passion and optimism never got anyone anywhere; it's all about cold hard facts! Or atleast that's what some people will tell you.
Do your own research, and make your own choices. You can't be taught another persons experience. My point is, regardless of the state of the industry, if you really want to take a chance on a pilot career and more importantly can afford to, then only you will know. Isn't it better to try and fail than live and die comfortably in regret?
People can generally only complain about the things they know about. The idea that the same people working in different jobs, having the same or different problems, is irrelevant to those people. The grass usually looks greener from a distance.
Passion and optimism never got anyone anywhere; it's all about cold hard facts! Or atleast that's what some people will tell you.
Do your own research, and make your own choices. You can't be taught another persons experience. My point is, regardless of the state of the industry, if you really want to take a chance on a pilot career and more importantly can afford to, then only you will know. Isn't it better to try and fail than live and die comfortably in regret?
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I guess it depends where you are and which way to go. Over here in the middle of europe the economy is now well above the pre-crisis levels and growing at the fastest rate for 20 years, unemployment is at a 30 year low and of course airlines are hiring.
However does that mean everything is fine in aviation? Of course not. First of all we have way too many wannabes who are looking for their first job, second of all we have quite a few experienced guys although most are hired now. But the big third is that most bigger airlines pretty much run a closed shop. They select most of their pilots prior to flight school and those will always come first to get new jobs, and even if they do hire direct entry pilots they will test them extremely thoroughly often with a pass rate as low as 0.3%. Meaning that those other 99.7% blew their once-in-a-lifetime chance for that job. And of course there is the language issue, english is not enough and you need to know the local language as well. Disappointing, but true.
My usual advice is to get into a cadet scheme (Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Air FranceKLM, probably even Air Berlin), if you fail to pass all those entry tests go for another profession to pay the bills and fly for fun. It can be much more rewarding than slogging around the same old airways at 2:00 AM being dead tired on the 7th consecutive day of duty. By the way, it doesn't hurt to start flying in your teens, over here the minimum age is 14 with special permission 13 to fly glider planes, which is not expensive at all.
However does that mean everything is fine in aviation? Of course not. First of all we have way too many wannabes who are looking for their first job, second of all we have quite a few experienced guys although most are hired now. But the big third is that most bigger airlines pretty much run a closed shop. They select most of their pilots prior to flight school and those will always come first to get new jobs, and even if they do hire direct entry pilots they will test them extremely thoroughly often with a pass rate as low as 0.3%. Meaning that those other 99.7% blew their once-in-a-lifetime chance for that job. And of course there is the language issue, english is not enough and you need to know the local language as well. Disappointing, but true.
My usual advice is to get into a cadet scheme (Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Air FranceKLM, probably even Air Berlin), if you fail to pass all those entry tests go for another profession to pay the bills and fly for fun. It can be much more rewarding than slogging around the same old airways at 2:00 AM being dead tired on the 7th consecutive day of duty. By the way, it doesn't hurt to start flying in your teens, over here the minimum age is 14 with special permission 13 to fly glider planes, which is not expensive at all.
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Do you want to be in aviation or not? If your just in it for the money and retirement, there are other places to go. If you really want to be in aviation, you'll do what it takes to make a living at it.
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Wow. Is being a pilot that bad!.Are you all saying just don’t be a pilot, choose a alternative career because getting up really early in the morning and getting made redundant time after time and relocating everywhere around the globe is just not enough to be a pilot. Not to mention the financial strain and the medicals etc.And its just going to be a job after a few months.
For any wannabe out there reading this thread just puts them in a state of depression. Knowing that being a pilot is all they want to do in life but the disadvantages dramatically outweigh the advantages of the job. Although any wannabe out there is probably in a state of denial and thinking that all you are talking nonsense and you represent the tiny minority out there.
Whether to pursue an integrated course in the next 2 years.still.PENDING.
For any wannabe out there reading this thread just puts them in a state of depression. Knowing that being a pilot is all they want to do in life but the disadvantages dramatically outweigh the advantages of the job. Although any wannabe out there is probably in a state of denial and thinking that all you are talking nonsense and you represent the tiny minority out there.
Whether to pursue an integrated course in the next 2 years.still.PENDING.
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BA038 I'm sorry but this topic and this forum really started me to think. Yes I love aviation and I love to fly. But flying big shiny jets is not the reality. That's the problem with us wannabe's, we don't know a thing about how it is in real life, only what the flight schools and forums like pprune tell us.
I don't get depressed by this topic. I'm happy there are topics like this to get the wannabe out of his dream and face the reality.
I myself am really considering an other career and keep flying as a hobby. Why? Because I'll probably get bored with my job (like any job! yes pilot too imo) and flying remains something fun and special to do in the weekends or in my spare time.
I don't get depressed by this topic. I'm happy there are topics like this to get the wannabe out of his dream and face the reality.
I myself am really considering an other career and keep flying as a hobby. Why? Because I'll probably get bored with my job (like any job! yes pilot too imo) and flying remains something fun and special to do in the weekends or in my spare time.
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The biggest mistake you made? Did you not research before you started flight training? Did you not know the facts? I do share your opinion about airlines, but we all knew that when we started.
The best decision I ever made, becoming a pilot. Knew I wanted to fly airliners since I was 14 years old, made it happen in the 1990's now in my mid thirties working for a major low cost in Europe. Love my job now more than at anytime in my career as I am LHS at a base where I want to be, living where I want to be. Happy with my lot - shame others cannot say the same I suppose. At least there is still someone out there who is happy with their career choice and still enjoying every day....
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It isn't for everyone. I trained with CTC and joined easyjet at 24, have flown the 737 and A320 for five years there and I'm shortly joining BA. I had a bit of luck in that I joined ezy at a time when permanent contracts were being given to cadets and we were paid and treated much better than the cadets are today. That said I have loved every minute (well, nearly!) of my career so far and I wouldn't want to do any other job. If I could quit tomorrow and be financially secure for life I would still like to have some involvement in airline flying. I've met some great people and had a lot of fun, even if the hours we work and the roster patterns we fly are a pain in the proverbial at times. Its still a great view watching the sunrise over Europe with a cup of coffee in hand, even if we do have to get up at 4am to see it...
So there you go. I wouldn't put anyone off going for a career as an airline pilot. It has its drawbacks and the finances required to get into it are getting more and more eye-watering but I'm delighted I went for it and I wouldn't do anything differently. Will it still be a viable career in 20-30 years time? Who knows. If you really want to get involved and you have done your research (and have a back-up plan should you not make it), then there is only one way to find out
So there you go. I wouldn't put anyone off going for a career as an airline pilot. It has its drawbacks and the finances required to get into it are getting more and more eye-watering but I'm delighted I went for it and I wouldn't do anything differently. Will it still be a viable career in 20-30 years time? Who knows. If you really want to get involved and you have done your research (and have a back-up plan should you not make it), then there is only one way to find out
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Paolo / BitMoreRightRudder,
Indeed there are many over the dacades who have had not just a satisfactory, but a wonderful life in a cockpit with the remuneration and lifestyle that went along with it. Unfortunately those days are past. Like many events in history, the goldrush, the dot.com boom etc etc.
As you pointed out paolo, you 'made it happen in the 1990's' and BMRR got into EZ at a time when 'perm contracts were being given cadets'.
The thing is, those days are in the history books and the thread is based on is it a viable career now.
ba038, the point of this thread is not to depress to the future wannabes, but to give the cold hard facts away from the PR and Marketing spilling out from the FTO's; They want your money, the posters here do not.
When you have the hard facts you can base your decsions accordingly.
Indeed there are many over the dacades who have had not just a satisfactory, but a wonderful life in a cockpit with the remuneration and lifestyle that went along with it. Unfortunately those days are past. Like many events in history, the goldrush, the dot.com boom etc etc.
As you pointed out paolo, you 'made it happen in the 1990's' and BMRR got into EZ at a time when 'perm contracts were being given cadets'.
The thing is, those days are in the history books and the thread is based on is it a viable career now.
ba038, the point of this thread is not to depress to the future wannabes, but to give the cold hard facts away from the PR and Marketing spilling out from the FTO's; They want your money, the posters here do not.
When you have the hard facts you can base your decsions accordingly.
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You still have to see that there is a huge difference between those european countries in economic distress like the uk apparently is and others that are not. Conditions differ greatly and such things as pay to fly schemes are not available or even legal everywhere.
It is still a viable career if you search for the right way into the industry. Just buying a CPL and then probably a type rating and since you still can't land a job some time on type is probably not the best way to go though.
It is still a viable career if you search for the right way into the industry. Just buying a CPL and then probably a type rating and since you still can't land a job some time on type is probably not the best way to go though.
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How?
Since I started my roster became much much better, my pay increased almost every year, I can call fatigued if I'm tired. I even have five days more holiday.
Look, I'm not saying that you are wrong. But it's not all doom and gloom. We pilots are very conservative, but paradoxically we work in a dynamic world. The old CTC guys rant about the new CTC-scheme, but they forget that when they themselves started, others here on PPRuNe were just as disgusted! Same ****, different day.
A funny thing happened in Holland, where in the nineties it used to be very in vogue to buy co-pilot hours on a turboprop that needed only one pilot to fly cargo. Can you imagine this nonsense? Anyway, they convinced themselves that this was the way into the airlines. Then of course, the world changed you suddenly had to pay for a type rating. To this day, these guys will moan about the fact how unfair and stupid it is to pay for a rating, forgetting that they themselves paid hard cash to sit in the right seat of a turboprop that needed no right seat.
So my question to you: what has really changed?
p.s. Last year I really got 'involved' in the plight of the cadets and contract FO's in easyJet. I thought they were having it really bad. But now, barely a year later, some (if not most) of those guys are flying in exotic places like MXP making more money that a UK captain, on permanent contracts.
Since I started my roster became much much better, my pay increased almost every year, I can call fatigued if I'm tired. I even have five days more holiday.
Look, I'm not saying that you are wrong. But it's not all doom and gloom. We pilots are very conservative, but paradoxically we work in a dynamic world. The old CTC guys rant about the new CTC-scheme, but they forget that when they themselves started, others here on PPRuNe were just as disgusted! Same ****, different day.
A funny thing happened in Holland, where in the nineties it used to be very in vogue to buy co-pilot hours on a turboprop that needed only one pilot to fly cargo. Can you imagine this nonsense? Anyway, they convinced themselves that this was the way into the airlines. Then of course, the world changed you suddenly had to pay for a type rating. To this day, these guys will moan about the fact how unfair and stupid it is to pay for a rating, forgetting that they themselves paid hard cash to sit in the right seat of a turboprop that needed no right seat.
So my question to you: what has really changed?
p.s. Last year I really got 'involved' in the plight of the cadets and contract FO's in easyJet. I thought they were having it really bad. But now, barely a year later, some (if not most) of those guys are flying in exotic places like MXP making more money that a UK captain, on permanent contracts.