Is pilot still considered as a viable career?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Indeed there are many over the dacades who have had not just a satisfactory, but a wonderful life in a cockpit with the remuneration and lifestyle that went along with it. Unfortunately those days are past

While I agree with you that the golden decades of airline flying, with all its perceived glamour, are long gone I would argue it is still a viable career. What people are finding out is that if they expect to go to the RHS of a jet straight from training airlines such as EZY and FR will charge you for the priviledge. And once you are in the seat your low level of experience will not be rewarded with a permanent contract and the level of income you might have expected. But experience in this industry is still rewarded with better job prospects/better terms and conditions.

This thread deals mainly with the disaffection and dismay at the plight of cadets at UK low cost airlines but there are many other airlines out there and as Denti mentions the situation outside the UK is in many cases very different. You also have to place the hiring period of the last few years into context with the worst financial meltdown in airline history. Airlines like EZY have been able to get away with exploitation of mainly young people who have committed themselves financially to the point where they cannot refuse the paltry offer of employment on the table for fear of bankruptcy. Times are changing and EZY/FR and the like will not be able to get away with the current shambles forever.

Airline flying is not glamorous, nor will it make you rich, but I think it is most certainly still a viable career that can be rewarding in many ways.

[stuckgear]

BMRR,

i can't disagree with you there as that is a synopsis of my previous posts .


Indeed there are markets where it is possible to forge a career, but those possibilities do come with caveats attached. The necessity to be fluent in the native language; the fact that as emerging EU markets grow and become competitive with EU carriers and subsidies decrease, dominant market conditions will be adopted etc etc.

The wannabes need the hard facts that dictate the market conditions under which they are expecting to employed. You, I and anyone else would be doing a disservice to them as future aviation counterparts to not let them know what the reality is.

Some will never be employed due to circumstances out of their control, some will, some will just about scratch a living, some may even make into a legacy carrier and enjoy a long career with seniority.

Optimism that everything is going to be fine and dandy, as before, has no place in aviation either in the business environment or the operational environment, you and I both know that, but wannabes do not. they are exposed primarily to the marketing and hype of FTO's and the illusion of a fantasy lifestyle.


Sometimes the reality does suck. Yes it is a wonderful experience watching the sun crest the curve of the earth from the best seat in the house, but then again that is what, 5 mins out of a working life, and to be honest, its not that important when you consider the potential downsides. If thats what someone wants, get the Natural Earth box set on DVD, its a damn sight cheaper with less stress and heartache!

Newbies need to go into this business with the cold hard facts.

No. Not many will get a job straight out of flight school, some *will* wait years, yet some *will* never get the chance, and while you're waiting for that first break (or second or third depending how the market stands at the time) will asking "would you like fries with that?" earn the money to service the training debt and keep your licences current ? and all the time the clock is ticking and there's more wannabes with dreams and illusions stacking up behind.

[KAG]

Many very interesting posts.

Just to be accurate: when I ask you if a pilot career is still viable, it concerns somedody starting its training today, 2011, with the purpose to have a career. Of course right now we can find wide body captains with very nice salaries. Or course many pilot are happy (I am).
But that's not the point at all.
The main point is that a 20 years old pilot student in 2011, may observe in the future the airline pilot job desapearing before he retires, that's the issue, here is why I used "viable".
Airlines hardly make money, when the oil is above $100 they don't make any, we are at $121 today, and almost all the experts admit the conventional oil (you know, the cheap one ;-) ) production can only decrease from now on, this is in fact what we observe for real. The fuel price cannot go down anymore, unless there is a recession. Our airline industry doesn't make money during recessions, neither during growth period with a high oil price.

Understanding this situation brings this "viable" issue.

[The500man]

Okay fuel prices aside, something which has yet to be mentioned in this thread regards future careers as an airline pilot specifically, is the effect that technology may have.

It could well be in the next 50 years or so that airlines move entirely toward "aircraft operators", who would be tasked with pressing the on/off button and then spending the rest of their time monitoring a fully-automated aircraft, instead of pilots.

The MPL is a step in that direction already, and since anybody looking to start a career now could still be flying in 50 years, what could this mean to the viability of a career as an airline pilot?

[PENKO]

The fuel price is a worry. But do you think that people will stop flying all together if the fuel price stays high? I don't think so. How exactly it will affect aviation and indeed the world is a good question. My simplistic take on it is that the world as we know it will fall apart anyway if fuel is so expensive that people don't fly anymore.

With respect to technology, even the most advanced airplanes in the sky use what is basically 1980's technology. Not much happened since then. My iPod has more computing capacity than the FMC aboard an A320. Things change very slowly in aviation. Take for example ATC communication. All the technology is there eradicate all voice comms, yet we still fly with headsets, just as in 1930. This makes me slightly optimistic for the coming 50 years.

500man, in what way does the MPL lead to button pushers? You still need very good basic flying skills to fly any aircraft in service today. Wether you achieve those in a Cessna or a high level simulator is a different debate.

[The500man]

in what way does the MPL lead to button pushers?

It is a license specialised for the operation of a single type of aircraft, which could be evolved into a button pushing license when that single type becomes fully-automatic.

[Luke SkyToddler]

The fuel price is only a worry if you actually have to pay for it. Emirates, Etihad Qatar and a few others don't have that problem

[KAG]

The fuel price is only a worry if you actually have to pay for it. Emirates, Etihad Qatar and a few others don't have that problem

Fuel is free for them?

[PPLPilot]

In a word, probably no.

All of the previous comments cover my thoughts, besides the oil problems, well explained by KAG we have the problem that people are still willing to pay nearly 100K to get into the FO seat, meaning that the airlines can throw out ridiculous T & C's and 'daddy's little boys' can afford to pay for their HUGE loan, on a salary less than many jobs that require little training and on a non-permanent contract.

This idea is exploited (clever business man) completely by companies like eagle jet, Pay to fly? Now for me, this seems absolutely ridiculous. Some of you may say ' if you have the money why not?' Well i can agree with that but this post is about how viable it is for people, and unless you have £80 k for intergrated training, £20k for a TR, and $30k for 500 hours on type it seems almost impossible.

The fact >>most<< airlines are asking for 1500 TT with 500 on type proves that the 'pilot shortage' forecasted for the last 30 years really doesnt exist at the moment, and will not in the near future.

Im not a pesimist before people acuse me of that, there is nothing i enjoy more than flying, it has always been a dream of mine to fly commercialy but i had to take a step back, do i take the plunge and train ? PERSONALLY, i found the answer to be no, i had the money to train, but i planned budgets extensively and looking at average wages, job availability and other factors, and i found that it would take me realisticly around 10-15 years to live a good life, with a fair disposable income. It was hit home for me when i looked into becoming an air traffic control officer, it lead me to the fact that ( this is based on no expendature besides paying back my training loan) i would have earnt the same amount of money in 20 years as a pilot as i did in only 6 years as an atco, this is based on the payment back of my loan and accounting for wages and living expenses.

Now for me, that only leads to one thing, ATCO. I'm not in it for the money i simply love flying but i didnt want live a life, having no money to spend on myself, girlfriends, houses, family e.t.c.

This will not stop many people that want to become pilots, I understand the dream, i was at the point. I was extrememly upset when i realised it just wasn't worth it. I tried to kid myself, did all my research spoke to many people, airlines, and F.T.O's. I even passed the entrance exams for OAA and CTC but it just wasn't viable.

Im not trying to tell you not to train, but be serious about the situation, Dreams can be very powerful and one such as this may find you in thousands of pounds of debt and a rather 'interesting' situatuion. I get the flying bug, i have it. But looking at it, im going to keep flying as a hobby, rather than a profession.

[mutt]

While I agree with you that the golden decades of airline flying, with all its perceived glamour, are long gone.

They still exist in some places !! I was sitting in the First Class lounge in Terminal 4 last night, enjoying lamb chops and champagne, then climbed into a nice first class seat for a 5 hour flight....... Life isn't too bad.

[KAG]

They still exist in some places !! I was sitting in the First Class lounge in Terminal 4 last night, enjoying lamb chops and champagne, then climbed into a nice first class seat for a 5 hour flight....... Life isn't too bad.

I think that for a pilot "glamourous" has to be understood under a romantic light, not luxury straight from the selling and advertisement department.

[KAG]

US airlines cut capacity as fuel costs soar

US airlines cut capacity as fuel costs soar


Friday, April 22, 2011


Rob Gill



US carriers are continuing to cut capacity as they try to cope with the effects of higher fuel prices.

Both United Continental and American Airlines are trimming planned capacity over the next few months after being hit by rising oil costs.

United Continental said that fuel had cost an extra 34.5% or $725 million for the first quarter of 2011 compared to the same period last year.

While American saw a 24% rise in its fuel costs adding an extra $351 million to its quarterly bill compared to 2010.

Jeff Smisek, United Continental’s chief executive officer, said: “United and Continental are much better positioned to manage through the current high-cost fuel environment as a combined carrier than either would have been as stand-alone carriers.”

United and Continental officially merged in October 2010 and the combined company recorded a net loss of $213 million for the quarter including $77 million of costs from the integration of the two airlines.

The airline is cutting capacity by one percentage point from May with a further four point reduction from September. Despite the cuts, capacity will be roughly the same as last year.

American’s parent company AMR Corporation reduced its net loss for the first three months of 2011 to $436 million compared to a deficit of $505 million on the same period in 2010.

AMR chief executive Gerard Arpey said: “High fuel prices remain one of the biggest challenges to our industry and our company.

“We believe our steps to aggressively increase revenues, reduce capacity, control non-fuel operating costs, and bolster liquidity will help us to better manage the challenges we currently face.”

American is cutting capacity on its domestic routes although it will still increase seat numbers on international routes. It is now expecting an overall capacity rise of 2.8% compared to last year.

[KAG]

So we are not in a recession scenario, airlines continue to go down.
Start to see my point when I say the energy price since 2007 (or oil crisis call it as you want) makes the pilot job not a viable one for a wannabe today?

[Denti]

Nope, it is those carriers that had difficulties with a changed business climate even before the crisis that struggle now. Those that adapted continue to grow and even make billions of profit a year. Yup, even with those fuel prices. The demand is still there and prices are competitive but not disastrous.

Even those two airlines are just cutting their growth back a bit, not reducing overall capacity. United Continental expect to keep the same capacity and American even expects a 2.8% rise in capacity, at least according to that cited article.

[Milton1995]

KAG, i understand your point of a view, and i do agree with you that the career choice is not a particulaly 'wise' but for me, it is still viable.

Colourful posters and clever advertising DO hold back the cold reality we experiece in the aviation world today, having said that their information MUST be backed up from somewhere, otherwise im sure ASA - Advertising Standards Authority would have got involved.

I like many others see no significant sign of this 'pilot shortage' people speak of and obviously these predictions have to be taken with a pinch of salt so to speak. However with the stagnation of the industry, movement between airlines and retirement has slowed signifcantly. This therefore leaves us with an aging work force and one that is looking for progession in their role.

Much like the transpiration stream in a plant (sorry only thing i can think of) as the Senior Captains of airlines start to retire these places will need to be filled, likely by the experienced first officers of these airlines. These places then need to be filled, i think you get it. This process ( should) continue down to the turbo prop operators, (e.g flybe) and airlines similar to EZY & RYR, who are more likely to hire low hour pilots.

I'm not saying this is going to salvage the industry and airlines will start to offer full sponsorship for the fATPL and job at the end, because they wont. However it has to be said that the jobs will start to trickle through for those who have performed v.well during training and show that they are a real asset to an airline.

The industry will NEVER be the same again as you have stated, but there's still life in her yet!

[Easy Glider]

I first heard that there was going to be a massive pilot shortage back in 1988!!! Yes, you read it correctly.... 23 years ago! I was 15 years old and just starting to make general enquiries with various flying schools. They all said with this huge hiring boom that was on the way, anyone with a blue license would be able to walk into a flying job of their choice.

Now there has been some sporadic periods of hiring since then_1989, 1997, 2000, 2005 but nowhere close to what was implied back in 1988. I have been working since 1994 but many others I know have not. The only assumption I can draw from this is that if this mythical pilot shortage has not materialized in 23 years.......then it is exactly that...a myth that is never going to happen.

[wilky]

turning point.

Not great input into the thread, but thought i'd share my decision, a big one at that. For years and years I have want to earn a career as a Pilot, not for the money, not for the glamour but simply flying. I was on my way to starting hour building/CPL/IR etc etc, but in the last few days I have realised that its just not worth it...for me anyway. I work 147 days a year for just under 50K a year, I work away 2 weeks at a time in a secure job, not stressful, not all that difficult, then I have 3 weeks off, where I dont even think about my job. I have decided that pursuing this airline career malarkey, is just not worth the financial commitment, the worry, stress and uncertainty in finding and keeping a flying job.

To splash out another 50k-60k on licences that will earn me less than i'm on now for working double if not more than my current job, and the additional worries of medicals and sim checks etc.

So big turning point in my life, going to buy me a PA28 or similar and enjoying my flying as a hobby, perhaps age has now seen me see sense, or am I now just being realistic.

Obviously I'm in a lucky position with my job just now, and I wish everyone who chases this dream/career all the best, but I would hardly call a 60K licence an "investment" these days.

[Piltdown Man]

Wilky, you have the makings of a sensible person. But really, the only scary bit is the medical (as I get a bit older), the rest is as stress free as you'd like to make it. The bit that worries me about you though is your choice of aircraft. A PA28? It better than a C150/2 but really I'm sure you could do better. Maybe a Super Cub, a Pitts S2 or a Tiger? Get something with a soul!

[FANS]

I think in the last 10 years, the "profession" has fundamentally changed.

This is for a number of reasons, but even things such as 10 years ago the class 1 medical severely cut out a good proportion of the population for eye sight reasons alone.

If we look at the supply of potential pilots today, it's really limited to ability to pay/ stupidity to enter mountains of debt. I find it unbelievable that big businesses such as TCX offer tagged schemes requiring £80k + cash upfront. If investment banks did this, there would be hell on with calls of elitism etc.

I really think that this type of selection will change the nature of our future pilots, and consequently those with a brain will go nearwhere this career.

[The500man]

and consequently those with a brain will go nearwhere this career.

Strangely that line made sense to me!

wilky, I agree with Piltdown Man's suggestion, and think you should go for a Pitts S2. A PA28 would be like learning to drive and then buying a Citroen 2CV!