Career as a pilot starting with 1 hour at 43 years old?

[Russkly]

Hi everyone.

I've just joined this forum, so please forgive me, if I've posted the wrong kind of question in the wrong forum!

I just wanted some basic advice, please, from people out there undergoing various stages of pilot training and pilot job hunting:

Having left my corporate/executive-type job last year, I am evaluating alternative career paths (ones that don't involve endless meetings, emails and corporate politics).

One of these is professional pilot (yes, I can almost hear the giggles from here!), since flying has always been an interest (although previously too expensive to pursue, especially since I haven't lived in the UK much in the last few years).

I live in Barcelona and am currently doing the ground study for the JAR PPL, which I'll be taking with Fly-in-Spain in Jerez in May (if I get through the mountain of learning!).

The idea was to use the PPL as a way of assessing interest, aptitude, etc. and also to talk to the instructors and staff about career opportunities in the industry.

However, I imagine they might be a little biased and interested in getting me to sign up for CPL/ME/IR, etc., so I thought I'd try to get an impartial feel from this forum.

In short, for a 43-year-old with 1 hour what are the chances of getting a job as a pilot; and I mean anywhere and as any kind of pilot?

For information I have funds and time to dedicate to this, should it appear feasible.

Sorry for the big post and the big question, but I hope some of you guys can offer me some pointers, even if they're negative, since my impression from research is that it's all about hours (+ on type), and that there are plenty of fully-qualified pilots out there kicking their heels already!

Thanks in advance for any help.

[redsnail]

G'day Sean,

This question has been posed before and there's no real answer.

The real question you are asking is "Can I get a good well paying flying job earning enough money to retire on in comfort?"
The real answer is "it depends".

Are you in a relationship? If so, what does your partner think about you potentially spending upwards of £50,000 on a "maybe"? If you haven't spoken about it, do it ASAP as it will severely impact on their life too.

If not, then that's one issue out of the way.
The next question is "what sort of job?". Can you afford to live on less than £20K for a couple of years post training? Or can you afford another £20K on top of the CPL/IR?

If the answer is no to the above, get a PPL and enjoy life. (Or get the CPL and instruct on the weekends)

Good luck.

[Russkly]

Hi Redsnail.

Many thanks for your speedy and informative post - I guess it is a bit of an old chestnut, and perhaps I should have searched better before posting a similar question.

In reply:

Yes, all squared away with the other half, and I've allocated what I think it would take to get to even frozen ATPL - approx. €100K. Sound right-ish?

I say ATPL, because I have been advised that many companies doing charters, etc. where the pilots don't actually need full ATPL ('just' CPL+ME+IR) are asking for ATPL with bags of hours (inc. on-type paid for by the individual!), because it's a buyers' market at present.

As to your second question, yes again. We'd be prepared to have me earning €25K a year for a couple of years, if it were taking me somewhere enjoyable and fulfilling (whilst accepting that I'd never be in the same financial category as in the previous job). In terms of actual target salary, that would be linked to location, I suppose, but I certainly don't need 6 figures.

So, it's looking positive thus far based on your questions!

I suppose the bottom line is: I could spend the next year or so getting as many qualifications as possible under my belt (whether that be CPL+ME+IR or even ATPL), but are there jobs out there afterwards?

Clearly I'm too old for airlines, but what's the situation like for instructors, crop spraying, tourist charters, exec. charters, parachute schools, etc? I found quite a lot of info on airline pilot hiring but haven't found any sites dealing with the many other forms of professional flying. If there are jobs, what kind of salaries are we looking at in Europe (in very general terms, of course)?

Again, thx for the advice - it is much appreciated, because clearly this is a big deal and a big money hole!

[maxed-out]

Hi Sean.

Let me say that I was also a late starter w.r.t getting my Cpl/Ir/Mcc. I started my 14 atpl subjetcs in the hiring boom of 2005-2007(March 2007 to be exact). I got my MCC last February and now have a GA "job" .. no pay just free flying for which I am extremely gratefull. Did all the training modular and all of it part-time.

As a low houred wannabe and being 39 soon I've serious concerns as to whether I will ever get to the flight deck of a King Air let alone an airliner.... although I would be over the moon with any sort of paid job on a lovely plane such as the Beech (before you old school pilots jump down my throat and accuse me of calling the King Air "only a King Air").

From the outset I was perfectly content with this working your way up strategy that has existed for eternity coupled with the lower earnings as I have saved up to compensate for this during my 13 year medical career. My view is slightly different now with CTC/OXFORD etc spitting out cadets month after month and airlines mopping these up before even giving us modular guys a look.

My point is do it if you want. But you will need to pay a lot more for a further type rating AND hours on type unless you are very very lucky.

Good luck

[Russkly]

Thx, Maxed-out.

Appreciate your reply.

A couple of questions that will make you squirm:

What is "MCC"?
What is "GA"?

I take your point about the pilot production line (I looked at a school here in Barcelona, but it just seemed like a factory for wannabe pilots looking for jobs in the burgeoning Chinese/Indian markets) - I suppose they're qualified, cheap and malleable.

Just to clarify, though, I'm not looking to get an airline seat.

All I'm looking to understand is: were the PPL to be really stimulating (and I certainly expect/hope it will be), what jobs are there out there for someone of my age/experience?

Doesn't need to be 'flashy', just fulfilling.

Thanks again for the reply.

[redsnail]

GA is any thing other than airline flying.
I have only done a bit of airline flying and that was regional airline stuff. (Smaller airports as well as capital city stuff).

This is what I did in Australia.
Instructing, bush flying - which encompassed charter and scenic flying, aerial work (Coastwatch) and bizjets is all GA. (General aviation).

Not quite sure where I would put "night freight" but instead of flying people I was flying parcels. Generally quieter and a lot less trouble.

In short, I don't do "airline flying" as I find it too much of a routine. I fly a bizjet now.

*If* you have your pension/superannuation etc all sorted out then that's one BIG headache removed. Take your time to read "G-SXTY's" posts about his journey. He did make it to a Dash 8 but the cost was his marriage.

A good friend decided that the cost was not worth it and stopped flight training.

Ag flying is not for the feint hearted, you'll probably need tail wheel time and a host of other requirements.

MCC = Multi Crew Co-ordination.
ATPL = you'll need that to sit in the LHS of any thing bigger than 5700 kg. Otherwise the CPL + IR etc is fine. You'll find that if you do the ATPL subjects, that covers the CPL and IR subjects. If you do the 2 separately, there's more exams. Yep, that's JAA/EASA for you...

At the moment, you don't have a CPL so there's no job available.
A low houred CPL holder will struggle to find any work, most add an Instructor rating on or pay for a rating or wait until hiring is more prolific.

There are jobs out there, you just need to network and be flexible where you live.
Good luck.

[volunteerpilot]

if you have £100k to spare, go for it

[Ronand]

I think you might have a chance working as an Instructor or Airtaxi pilot. And be prepared to relocate even for this kind of low paid job. Keep in mind that with instructing or air taxi you will never really make more than 20k a year (I can speak out of experience). But you cannot expect getting into any Airline if you start at this age. Maybe your best bet would be do your training modular and then pay for a biz jet rating yourself. Most guys who selffund a rating are buying Airliner ratings which are pretty much worthless without hrs on type. But I've seen a few openings for rated citation or learjet pilots with no minimum hr requirements. I think this route would be your best shot but still a gamble. The whole thing (Modular CPL ME IR + Biz jet rating) will cost you about 85000 euros if you do it clever, which is the same price as many people pay for integrated CPL ME IR courses. I believe An expensive integrated course like Oxford would be a waste of money for someone of your age as you most likely won't be able to get into any airline without experience.
There is One other option If you really wanna get into the airlines. Get a modular CPL ME IR as cheap as possible. Then get a 737 NG rating and buy a linetraining Package. There are Airlines in Asia offering linetraining+ 1 year guaranteed employment with a better salary than any instructor. I know it sucks big time to Pay for linetraining and it ruins the market, but I know people who have done it and have well paid jobs now. The whole thing would cost you about 100-120k I guess.
As odd as it sounds I believe this might actually be your best option if you have this kind of money on your hands....

[Russkly]

Firstly, thanks to you all for your comments - it's really helping me build a picture of a future in flying (or not!).

@redsnail:
Very helpful post, thank you.
Seems that GA might be even more challenging than airline work, for which I am too old!

@Ronand:
Very helpful post too, thanks.
As per above, airlines are clearly out for me for a variety of reasons, so that only leaves GA.
When you say "Airtaxi", do you mean the guys who fly charter jets for business people, etc?

In summary, then:

• Airlines are out.
• To do airtaxi work (flying 'small' exec jets on a charter basis, correct?), I would need to consider the following:
  • JAR PPL (approx. €11K here in Spain).
  • PPL hours (min. 45) + another 100 or so to qualify for JAR CPL (approx. €15K?).
  • CPL+ME+IR+MCC+Biz Jet rating (approx. €85K).
  • Total = Approx. €110K at best.
  • Time = Approx. 12 months (given I am not working at present)? Realistic?
  • At the end of that I am fully qualified to fly e.g. Learjet as PIC (or just as FO initially?) with no hours-on-type for approx. €25K p.a. If I can find a job at all, and if I network very effectively and am prepared to move from Barcelona?

Wow!
Might be time to reconsider completely - mid-life crisis career change options reduced by 1.

Still, great information, and it's better to go in with eyes wide open.

I think I'll crack on with the PPL, because it'll be a great personal challenge/achievement (if I pass), talk to the flying school (Fly-in-Spain, Jerez) instructors and staff and take it from there.

Once again, thanks to you all for your information and advice.

[KAG]

"At the end of that I am fully qualified to fly e.g. Learjet as PIC (or just as FO initially?)"

[Russkly]

"At the end of that I am fully qualified to fly e.g. Learjet as PIC (or just as FO initially?)"

Do I detect irony?!

Have I got that all horribly wrong?

Not trying to be naive, but it seems I might have achieved that in spades, lol.

[pulse1]

I watched a friend of mine doing it some years ago. He went the modular route and spent all of his time, and money, becoming totally absorbed into the local aviation scene. By the time he obtained his ATPL, at 50, he knew all the local important people and was able to secure an FO position on a twin turbine freighter. He eventually went on to captain and is still earning a good living flying a corporate twin.

The point seems to be that it is as important to work just as hard getting known as it is getting the qualifications.

[Russkly]

The point seems to be that it is as important to work just as hard getting known as it is getting the qualifications.

A salutory lesson in all walks of life, I guess.

[redsnail]

Sean,

At the end of your training you should have a CPL + IR with multi engine and most likely, all your ATPL subjects done.
You'll have approx 200 hours or so.

To be a captain of a Lear will require at least 1300 hours more at the absolute minimum. Why? You'll need to hold an ATPL. That's a minimum of 1500 hours (with specific hours required for night etc). Most operators stipulate a minimum of 3,000 hours.

Lear jets are above 5700 kg, so an ATPL is required.

Air taxi is pretty much as it says on the tin. It's ad hoc charter. It can be in any thing from a Chieftain (light piston twin- I think they weigh about 3,000 kg) to a Gulfstream G550 (41 tonnes, range 14 hours). (Although, that is a tad overkill)

Charter can be done in airliners. In fact, a lot of it is done like that in Europe.
Charter can simply be a regular flight that is not open to the public, eg oil rig transfers.

GA is challenging. It does encompass a wide variety of flying. My husband flies for easyJet, he'd swap his job for mine in a heart beat.

[KAG]

Yes you do ;-)

If you think it's even possible to get a Learjet Captain position out of flight school, you might want to do some more research.

Also you said ATPL in one of your post. You have to understand that you don't get any ATPL out a flight school. To make it simple, the ATPL written exams is the theory you need in order to get your CPL licence. If you don't write those ATPL theory exams, you need to write the CPL and IR theory instead, which is almost the same. Nobody get out from a flight school with an ATPL licence. It's a CPL licence you'll get. An ATPL licence will come after a few years of real experience flying with your CPL licence.

[KAG]

Ok redsnail already answered, didn't see.

[BoeingDreamer]

Having started myself at late age, I have a couple of inputs and advice. One thing we know when we start is that time is against us. You should seriously consider very well where you do your CPL and IR training, Spain does not have the best reputation for this.

I will use UK prices, and one more thing you probably should disregard are the minimum hours requirement, this does not always work out for us older guys, and is just the legal minimum hours required, there will be many factors that will push these number upwards, weather, aircraft, airfields etc.

I can only quote you on UK prices, however I did have one big advantage when I started, I had already had a PPL from 1992, expired, but meant I would still keep my hours from that time, and I was able to fly a reduced program.
I would say doing it modular is smart way of doing it.
PPL is budget at the school I attended to £6250, so to have some safety margin for landing fees etc. put it at an equal £7000.

In addition add time needed for the theory for the PPL, normally self study. Not sure how it is in Spain with exams, but in the UK was fairly easy, could go and do 1 exam as soon as you was ready for that topic, in other countries I know you have to do all the exams in one day.

Then you need to do your hour building, and main point is to get 100 hours PIC, again depending where you are this might take a little longer then first calculated. But you are looking at around £9000 for these hours in a C152, incl. landing fees and extras. I would think you would spend around 3 - 6 months on this, if in UK it can be pretty bad weather.

Then you must start your ATPL theory, you can do some of that during your hour building, but it is hard, specially if you have family. During my ATPL's I think I had 2 hours flying during that 6 month period, I went full time, not distance learning.

I think this is probably going to be the hardest and most time consuming part of your training. You can choose between distance learning or full time course, I chose full time in the end, as distance learning was not practical, having a newborn baby and a business to run.
It took me 6 months to complete all 14 exams, we was 2 in the class that was older, the other one was 50, and I was that time 40, we all did first time pass, and actually was the 2 best in class averaging all the exam results, I think his average was 96 or 97%, and mine was 95%. There was another guy who had similar scores in his late 20's, the rest did firstly not do first time passes, and had relatively low averages.
So it proves age does have a few advantages.

This will cost you around £3000 with study material, Bristol GS is good, do any of your ATPL's in the UK, and you must do your CPL/IR in the UK.
I think distance learning will at least take you 12 months to complete, while if you do attend a full time course, they will have you done in 7 months.
It is not difficult, just massive amounts of stuff to learn.
Pretty basic concepts, maths and physics, nothing to be worried about in that sense.
Some mind blowing stuff in Navigation and Precession and Gyros, but a few Red Bulls will straighten that out for you.
Went full time, 6 hours class room + 2 to 4 hours self study at home every day.
Last 10 days before exams, was up to 16 hours a day revising, expect your wife to want to burn your ATPL books several times during this course.

When these are passed, you are ready to go, CPL takes you a month, probably cost you around £7500 all incl. (also CAA exam fees)
Multi engine is done in a week, around £3000.

And then starts the fun bit, the IR, which will take you between 2 to 4 months, depending on weather and your ability. Will cost you around £15.000.

You will see all flight schools advertising these things cheaper, but forget those prices, they are guidelines, and probably if you are 24 and have a very sharp brain, you will do your IR in the minimum hours, but it is better to make sure you get first time pass, and spend an extra £1000.

Also from my 170 to my test, it took around 6 weeks, due to holidays, weather, so you need to assume the worst.

Then you do your MCC, which I actually found the most interesting of all courses, and also one of the hardest courses, no exams, but it showed you what you are really getting yourself into. Around 2 weeks, and prices around £2500

It took me exactly on the date 2 years from I passed my PPL until I got my IR. And I think it is not easy to do it much faster than that.

Add the numbers together:
PPL : £7000
Hours: £9000
ATPL: £3500 (books and exam fees in addition to the course)
CPL: £7500
ME: £3000
IR: £15000
MCC: £2500

So you are looking at around £50.000 to be able to start any typerating course or to look for work. Of course if you just want to do flight instructing you can stop at CPL stage, and just do a FIC course instead of ME IR MCC, FIC course is approx. £7000, and takes about 2 - 3 months.

If you do distance learning on your ATPL's I think you have to calculate at least 12 months to complete the ATPL's, I know guys and they struggled to do distance learning less then 12 months, it is possible, but not easy.
The way I see it, you will probably spend 9 months to do your PPL and hour building, the rest of the flight training probably within maximum 5 months. So you have the rest of time used for ATPL's.

TR is another discussion, with the above and even a TR, don't expect anybody to give us a job on a Learjet until you have some more hours.

[Russkly]

Excellent information, everybody, and thank you all again.

It seems my understanding was frighteningly limited, so thanks for the patience shown in going through the process for me.

I clearly have a lot of thinking to do and a lot of questions to ask the instructors during the PPL in May (doing ground study from books at home in Barcelona now and then the exams and practical during 2 x 2-week stints in Jerez [south-west Spain] in May).

Perhaps I should have tried Cranwell instead of going to Sandhurst! School and uni were much more army- than RAF-focused, and it's strange how these things can guide one's life!

Thanks again.

[BoeingDreamer]

There are Urban Legends of people on these forums, how have done it and succeeded.
To be honest just checking many of my old PM's there was many who wanted to do it, but after short time never returned to flying in this context.

I would say, if you have a burning passion, like hell fire for this, then do it, because that will never go away. That is my excuse. However if you just day dreaming, and you bored with your current life, do the PPL first, fly a bit for fun, because it might not be more then just that what you want or need.

Have heard stories of PPL's getting into pretty scary situations, and never ever want to fly again. Try before you buy, and good luck.

It is possible, but how much can get in return, we will never know.

[Turbavykas]

You can also get into gliding. This will improve your flying skills. And you will feel like flying a Boeing in an open class 25m ship!