Affording training /lower class.
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Affording training /lower class.
Unfortuntely I don't have the luxury of having my parents fund my flying. I also do not have the A-levels to attain sponsorship throughout airlines. Are there any other options I can take, maybe getting sponsorhip by another company or something somehow? I'm willing to go into debt, possibly unrecoverable debt for this job because i know given the chance ill make it. I just need to know what my option are. I'm from a single parent family and my mother is on benefits. its virtully impossible for me to acquire the 50,000+ to do my integrated frozen ATPL.
Anybody in a similar situation or have been? I'm not doing A-level maths and physics, they were never my strong points mainly due to my school. I'm inbetween leaving A-levels and focusing on the relevent stuff i should know before joining the ATPL course, like practising maths and science. Oh and another thing, my family owns no property so i cannot hold it for assurance. I'm also 19 years of age, i feel i really should be on the road by now and that i'm running out of time.
Piloting is all i've wanted to do. I am aware that the industry is more 'who you know rather than what you know', its not too much of a big problem, but getting the money is. These oxford kids have it easy i tell you haha.
Anybody in a similar situation or have been? I'm not doing A-level maths and physics, they were never my strong points mainly due to my school. I'm inbetween leaving A-levels and focusing on the relevent stuff i should know before joining the ATPL course, like practising maths and science. Oh and another thing, my family owns no property so i cannot hold it for assurance. I'm also 19 years of age, i feel i really should be on the road by now and that i'm running out of time.
Piloting is all i've wanted to do. I am aware that the industry is more 'who you know rather than what you know', its not too much of a big problem, but getting the money is. These oxford kids have it easy i tell you haha.
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Hi
I was once in your possition, and the answer is simple.
All you need to do is get a job! earn the money and save. Thats the way I did it, and thats the way most people without any cash do it.
You are 19 and have plenty of time, theres no need to rush. Finish your education, get a job and save.
It took me 8 years to get the £50k+ required for flight training, I saved virtually every penny I earned. Yes it was hard, I had no life! but if you want it enough thats what you do.
I was one of the lucky few that completed flight training completely debt free!!
Good Luck...
I was once in your possition, and the answer is simple.
All you need to do is get a job! earn the money and save. Thats the way I did it, and thats the way most people without any cash do it.
You are 19 and have plenty of time, theres no need to rush. Finish your education, get a job and save.
It took me 8 years to get the £50k+ required for flight training, I saved virtually every penny I earned. Yes it was hard, I had no life! but if you want it enough thats what you do.
I was one of the lucky few that completed flight training completely debt free!!
Good Luck...
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Work tremendously hard & try to save every penny.
While doing your flight training, dont look at the big flashy names, just look for those places where you can get the best training with the minimal costs.
If you're impatient just like me, then maby a bank education loan might be the way out, provided you are sure enough that you can clear yourself up from the debts soon after you are done training.
Best of Luck...I'm also on the same boat
While doing your flight training, dont look at the big flashy names, just look for those places where you can get the best training with the minimal costs.
If you're impatient just like me, then maby a bank education loan might be the way out, provided you are sure enough that you can clear yourself up from the debts soon after you are done training.
Best of Luck...I'm also on the same boat
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look at modular courses instead of integrated, in other words, do the training as and when you can afford it!
I'm 25 and only just completed my ppl. Time is not ticking for you at all. Bear in mind that a lot of people don't get into flying until their 30's!
I'm 25 and only just completed my ppl. Time is not ticking for you at all. Bear in mind that a lot of people don't get into flying until their 30's!
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the beauty of modular training is that you don't have to wait until you have saved up all the money to start, you can get a job and start training now. If you live on the cheap, you can easily get at least a couple of lessons a month and in a years time you will have a PPL.
You can then study ATPL distance learning for under £1000 which will keep you going for another year and a half. Whilst doing this, join a flying group to build your hours cheaply and start getting to know people within aviation.
these first steps are easily attainable for anyone who wants it enough, It of course requires sacrifice, but then what doesn't!
The expensive part comes later, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Lets face it, you have time on your side and just now there is no rush! good luck!
regards
D-G
Edit - this is of course after you finish your A-levels! a very important point I forgot to add!
You can then study ATPL distance learning for under £1000 which will keep you going for another year and a half. Whilst doing this, join a flying group to build your hours cheaply and start getting to know people within aviation.
these first steps are easily attainable for anyone who wants it enough, It of course requires sacrifice, but then what doesn't!
The expensive part comes later, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Lets face it, you have time on your side and just now there is no rush! good luck!
regards
D-G
Edit - this is of course after you finish your A-levels! a very important point I forgot to add!
Last edited by Dane-Ger; 23rd Nov 2009 at 18:16.
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get your A-LEVELS, college degree and graduate paying job and start saving.
If you go to college and get decent job then
or worst case scenario: Frozen ATPL, small loan, few pilot jobs but at least career/experince to fall back on and resume normail life!!!This is what I would have done if time was turned back!
If you go to college and get decent job then
- save first for PPL..take a holiday for 3-4 weeks to florida and attain ppl
- come home,return to job and part time ATPL study and exams(over about 1 year) and at the same time your saving for CPL/IR.
- with ATPLs done you have something like 2 years to attain CPL..so save save save
- career break for start of cpl/ir...if loads of aviation jobs you can probably leave your job if your made too.need 3 months.
or worst case scenario: Frozen ATPL, small loan, few pilot jobs but at least career/experince to fall back on and resume normail life!!!This is what I would have done if time was turned back!
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You have 36 months from the date of your last ATPL exam i believe, so 3 years to complete CPL/IR. You seriously dont need to get into debt if your smart about your choices! you have plenty of time on your hands!
Getting into debt in the current situation with no guaranteed job at the end is a bad move in my book! get a job and save! worse case scenario if you dont make it for one reason or another at least you wont be paying the debts off for the rest of your life!
Take it easy
Getting into debt in the current situation with no guaranteed job at the end is a bad move in my book! get a job and save! worse case scenario if you dont make it for one reason or another at least you wont be paying the debts off for the rest of your life!
Take it easy
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I was in your place many years ago within the last years of college, looking through books on career options. I knew what I wanted to do since about 6 years old (strange but true) and got involved in everything to do with aircraft. When leaving college I knew that flying cost between £40,000-£100,000, but where was I going to get that sort of money?
My parents didn't assist me, so it basically meant, as stated above, get a job and start saving for a PPL. I decided not to go to Uni, as that would result in debt and I knew I would be getting into debt at some point through a flying loan. So I decided against this, to increase my chances of loan for flying (even more important in times like now with things called banks).
It's taken me 10yrs so far, but I've been patient (not been easy though). Been through a number of low points, even Sept 11th and that was a low, but kept at it. I have now achieved a PPL, Night Rating, IMC Rating (Part Sponsored btw!!) and now studying for ATPL’s with the first set of exams coming up shortly and not in debt, but in profit!!
Btw I quit my job in a recession to get the study done and go into part-time work, that says a lot in itself! But I could afford to do that and I turned a massive negative of my life for the past year into a massive positive and I feel great for doing so! ...just wasn't easy making the decision and taking the step itself, but I knew what I had to do.
I’m just pacing things for when to complete the CPL/IR/MCC and the loan will therefore be only a fraction of that massive figure of £40-100k, plus the parents are potentially willing to assist with a lower figure having done most of it yourself!
So with patience, hard work, luck and time this is still achievable. I think you’d feel a greater sense of achievement having gone through the challenge in financing it over time, rather than the parents giving you the cash on a plate and potentially having to pay them back later. I know what I’d prefer, but no one said life was easy!!
I know a quite a few pilots, most of them went through the modular route and have all made it to flying a jet.
I'd also recommend you have a look through the requirements for training each module plus having a look through the CAA's document called LASORS - this is like the bible of aviation, explaining the duration you have before each licence/rating expires - very useful info for that business/training plan!
But if you want it, you’ll find a way to do it!!!
My parents didn't assist me, so it basically meant, as stated above, get a job and start saving for a PPL. I decided not to go to Uni, as that would result in debt and I knew I would be getting into debt at some point through a flying loan. So I decided against this, to increase my chances of loan for flying (even more important in times like now with things called banks).
It's taken me 10yrs so far, but I've been patient (not been easy though). Been through a number of low points, even Sept 11th and that was a low, but kept at it. I have now achieved a PPL, Night Rating, IMC Rating (Part Sponsored btw!!) and now studying for ATPL’s with the first set of exams coming up shortly and not in debt, but in profit!!
Btw I quit my job in a recession to get the study done and go into part-time work, that says a lot in itself! But I could afford to do that and I turned a massive negative of my life for the past year into a massive positive and I feel great for doing so!
...just wasn't easy making the decision and taking the step itself, but I knew what I had to do.I’m just pacing things for when to complete the CPL/IR/MCC and the loan will therefore be only a fraction of that massive figure of £40-100k, plus the parents are potentially willing to assist with a lower figure having done most of it yourself!
So with patience, hard work, luck and time this is still achievable. I think you’d feel a greater sense of achievement having gone through the challenge in financing it over time, rather than the parents giving you the cash on a plate and potentially having to pay them back later. I know what I’d prefer, but no one said life was easy!!
I know a quite a few pilots, most of them went through the modular route and have all made it to flying a jet.
I'd also recommend you have a look through the requirements for training each module plus having a look through the CAA's document called LASORS - this is like the bible of aviation, explaining the duration you have before each licence/rating expires - very useful info for that business/training plan!
But if you want it, you’ll find a way to do it!!!
Last edited by Cirrus_Clouds; 23rd Nov 2009 at 14:43.
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Do complete the A-levels. Time is very much on your side, the jobs market is unlikely to pick up for 3+ years. Those A-levels will potentially secure you a better job with which to fund your training. Importantly, they are also a fall back should flying not work out for whatever reason. They demonstrate to a potential employer a certain amount of ability and application.
Also, get your Class 1 medical done, before you start making career defining decisions to be a pilot.
Also, get your Class 1 medical done, before you start making career defining decisions to be a pilot.
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My advice is not to get into debt.
I know one person who left school at 15 worked 60 plus hours a week cleaner, forklift truck driver, baggage handler and by the time they where 20 they had a frozen ATPL.
It all went a bit pair shaped when they lost their medical at 23. The fact that they had no debt was their saving grace. It allowed them to forge a career away from aviation.
It does happen so be sensible.
I know one person who left school at 15 worked 60 plus hours a week cleaner, forklift truck driver, baggage handler and by the time they where 20 they had a frozen ATPL.
It all went a bit pair shaped when they lost their medical at 23. The fact that they had no debt was their saving grace. It allowed them to forge a career away from aviation.
It does happen so be sensible.
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do NOT go back to doing A Levels now. Unless you're planning on going to uni, they won't help you diddly squat. In two years you'll be eligible for mature learning at uni anyway should you need it, so what's the point? Airlines don't care. What a waste of time when, as people say, you should be working and saving hard. Sounds good to an interviewer as well.
that's only my exp though, and I don't even have gcses, so excuse the bias!
why anyone would be suggesting for this guy to do a uni/college degree now is beyond me, he's already told us that every penny in his life must be earnt before it's spent, why go down a road of piling on more debt? don't go, take the sting out of the tail somewhat and do what you love. I did and it worked.
that's only my exp though, and I don't even have gcses, so excuse the bias!
why anyone would be suggesting for this guy to do a uni/college degree now is beyond me, he's already told us that every penny in his life must be earnt before it's spent, why go down a road of piling on more debt? don't go, take the sting out of the tail somewhat and do what you love. I did and it worked.
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I wondered why you mentioned an integrated course. That is the most expensive option, and impossible to combine with work so requires at least a year's complete loss of income. You also say you know you'll make it. You don't, sorry to tell you. You think you will make it, but you must accept that those who don't (fewer than the pessimists here will tell you) all thought the same. Keep that in mind, it is a factor in your decisions.
As for running out of time, you're not. That feeling is good, as you will need to keep working hard and not sit back, but you do have more than adequate time to do this with hard work and sacrifice.
If you're English ignore Irishpilot and don't even think about university. A-levels might be a wise idea, but no employer I know of in European aviation requires a degree for pilots. The debt you will acquire will set your ambition back several years unless you become a lawyer, and in that case specialise in corporate law, rake in the money and enjoy flying as a hobby.
Good luck!
As for running out of time, you're not. That feeling is good, as you will need to keep working hard and not sit back, but you do have more than adequate time to do this with hard work and sacrifice.
If you're English ignore Irishpilot and don't even think about university. A-levels might be a wise idea, but no employer I know of in European aviation requires a degree for pilots. The debt you will acquire will set your ambition back several years unless you become a lawyer, and in that case specialise in corporate law, rake in the money and enjoy flying as a hobby.
Good luck!
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Hi,
I've not managed to read a lot of the replies but here's what I've done / am doing...
I started flying when I was 16, at the time I was working for £3.36 an hour at Sainsburys. My parents refused to pay a penny, and they wouldnt even take me to the nearest airfield so I had to cycle the 12 miles. It took almost 4 years to get my PPL through completly self funding. After finnishing at school, I went on to do my A-levels and then a degree (again self funded). Whilst at college/University I was working full time to pay for the flying and the education. I have now got a graduate job and am saving every penny I can for flying. I did the hour building over my time at university and also worked at the local airfield getting to know a few pilots. I am now in the process of starting my ATPLs which I hope to have done within a year.
So, as a few other people have said, earn some money and take it step by step.
Once I have done my ATPL exams and hold a CPL licence I will consider taking a loan to help me get to at least instructor stage.
Good luck
I've not managed to read a lot of the replies but here's what I've done / am doing...
I started flying when I was 16, at the time I was working for £3.36 an hour at Sainsburys. My parents refused to pay a penny, and they wouldnt even take me to the nearest airfield so I had to cycle the 12 miles. It took almost 4 years to get my PPL through completly self funding. After finnishing at school, I went on to do my A-levels and then a degree (again self funded). Whilst at college/University I was working full time to pay for the flying and the education. I have now got a graduate job and am saving every penny I can for flying. I did the hour building over my time at university and also worked at the local airfield getting to know a few pilots. I am now in the process of starting my ATPLs which I hope to have done within a year.
So, as a few other people have said, earn some money and take it step by step.
Once I have done my ATPL exams and hold a CPL licence I will consider taking a loan to help me get to at least instructor stage.
Good luck
Some suggestions:
(1) Join the RAF
(2) Join the Army Air Corps
(3) Join the Fleet Air Arm
(4) Get a job, work, live cheaply, pay as you go through the modular route. Best of all, get a job in aviation somewhere - whether that's as cabin crew or barman.
A few further thoughts:
- At 19 you are nowhere near running out of time. If you were 40, maybe.
- You say you want to be a pilot; rather than have an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with airliners. Good. That means you can consider military flying, becoming a microlight instructor, commercial balloon pilot...
- "Who you know, not what you know"? - at the higher levels of job hunting maybe, at working level, no - it's what you can do and how you present yourself, everything else is just fluff.
- You don't need integrated. Virtually nobody needs integrated. It's just marketing spin and a huge price markup on a good product - the majority of working pilots trained through a modular route of some sort.
- PPL/night/IMC at 19 is actually very impressive. Don't put yourself down, you're on track and doing well. (For the record, by my 20th birthday I had slightly under 16 hours. To date my career has, whilst perhaps in odd directions, has been damned good fun, and all about flying.)
G
(1) Join the RAF
(2) Join the Army Air Corps
(3) Join the Fleet Air Arm
(4) Get a job, work, live cheaply, pay as you go through the modular route. Best of all, get a job in aviation somewhere - whether that's as cabin crew or barman.
A few further thoughts:
- At 19 you are nowhere near running out of time. If you were 40, maybe.
- You say you want to be a pilot; rather than have an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with airliners. Good. That means you can consider military flying, becoming a microlight instructor, commercial balloon pilot...
- "Who you know, not what you know"? - at the higher levels of job hunting maybe, at working level, no - it's what you can do and how you present yourself, everything else is just fluff.
- You don't need integrated. Virtually nobody needs integrated. It's just marketing spin and a huge price markup on a good product - the majority of working pilots trained through a modular route of some sort.
- PPL/night/IMC at 19 is actually very impressive. Don't put yourself down, you're on track and doing well. (For the record, by my 20th birthday I had slightly under 16 hours. To date my career has, whilst perhaps in odd directions, has been damned good fun, and all about flying.)
G
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There is some "who you know" at all levels I would suggest Genghis - however you have already proposed the solution. If Crescentpirate works in the aviation business, in whatever capacity, he will get to know people. You know what a small world this is!
). If you haven't got any, then people mostly just look at your CV and make their mind up. Of course, knowing people does help find out where vacancies exist.G
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Thanks
I appreciate all your comments. However i see that the word 'years' and so on pops up frequently.
I understand i am undertaking a career in which most of us were dreaming about when we were toddlers. But i really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible while i am still young and good looking haha.
Flying is flying, i'd do it voluntarily if i could because its what I'd love to do. But there is money to be made in aviation and i really don't want to be that 'old guy' driving around in his new spangley Lotus Elise trying to relive the youthful bachalor life he never had.
My friend is 20 and is in Cabair, finished his exams and all he has to do now is pass his flying exams and he has his commercial license. He Is, going to be a pilot a lot quicker than me and definately before he reaches his thirties. I see his videos he uploads on facebook. I am very happy for him but i get butterflies in my stomach when i watch saying 'i should be up there as well'. I feel like i've wasted so much time and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job.
Modular sounds great it does, cheap, at my own pace..but i might try integrated. Worst case scenario, i can't pay the debt, what they going to do? nothing...So i can't get good credit on a car or whatever at least i had my chance to do it and do it at an age in which i was still young.
I'm not persuing my career for the money or indeed the hotel accomodation with the lonely air hostesses, but i really would love to become a pilot preferably before i am married.
Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated? I think i read on cabair website that its a 'preferred' method. Unsure if that applies to the shool itself as being the preferred or speaking on behalf of airlines.
I understand i am undertaking a career in which most of us were dreaming about when we were toddlers. But i really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible while i am still young and good looking haha.
Flying is flying, i'd do it voluntarily if i could because its what I'd love to do. But there is money to be made in aviation and i really don't want to be that 'old guy' driving around in his new spangley Lotus Elise trying to relive the youthful bachalor life he never had.
My friend is 20 and is in Cabair, finished his exams and all he has to do now is pass his flying exams and he has his commercial license. He Is, going to be a pilot a lot quicker than me and definately before he reaches his thirties. I see his videos he uploads on facebook. I am very happy for him but i get butterflies in my stomach when i watch saying 'i should be up there as well'. I feel like i've wasted so much time and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job.
Modular sounds great it does, cheap, at my own pace..but i might try integrated. Worst case scenario, i can't pay the debt, what they going to do? nothing...So i can't get good credit on a car or whatever at least i had my chance to do it and do it at an age in which i was still young.
I'm not persuing my career for the money or indeed the hotel accomodation with the lonely air hostesses, but i really would love to become a pilot preferably before i am married.
Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated? I think i read on cabair website that its a 'preferred' method. Unsure if that applies to the shool itself as being the preferred or speaking on behalf of airlines.
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My friend is 20 and is in Cabair, finished his exams and all he has to do now is pass his flying exams and he has his commercial license. He Is, going to be a pilot a lot quicker than me
and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job
Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated?
and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job
Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated?
I hope you read the aviation press and keep up to date with happenings within the industry because along with the demise of XL, Zoom and SilverJet, airlines are looking at cutting back on their pilot workforce, sometimes quite dramatically. BA, Virgin and now bmi have announced pilot job losses..................79 captains and 50 F/O's at bmi mainline and 27 Captains and 22 F/O's at regional. bmiBaby has also lost somewhere in the order of 25% of its pilot workforce. That's a lot of very experienced and current guys being released into a tiny marketplace.
So yes your friend will be a pilot with a professional licence before you and I really, really do understand how badly you want to do this job, but the harsh reality is that your friend will be unable to secure a job (unless exceptionally lucky) especially when you think of all the young F/O's that bmi will release on the market with 500-2000hrs on the A320 and all the 737 rated guys from Baby.
It took me the best part of 11 years from gaining my PPL to securing my first RHS on a jet with a lot of sh1tty flying jobs in between (including going abroad for a number of years). All I can say is be realistic (easy to say but not to do within aviation) and read all you can here on Pprune and in the aviation/business press and don't make any rash decisions which you WILL regret
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But i really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible
Debt is a terrible curse. With your background you should understand this. Do your A levels - maths is very important in aviation. Get a job, save up, earn your way, and stop being a jerk. But hey, if your shallow enough to think a good car is important in life, then I guess there is little hope for you. You are aware of the current job situation I take it?