Is now a good time to train? You might be surprised!
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One thing to bear in mind is that (if you can afford it) this is a good time to get discounts out of the FTOs. We've reduced the price of our MCC course and are offering further discounts for "bundled" packages - ie. do a CPL or IR and get a further discount off the MCC (and other such deals). For anyone who can find the money, this may actually be the best time to do it - after all, there won't be any waiting lists at any FTOs, will there?
Any small percentage training fee saving is swallowed whole by a single IR renewal. There is nothing, NOTHING more pathetic, soul destroying and sad as a guy covered in rust, with a dusty CPL in his shirt pocket and a cobweb ridden log book desperately trying to keep his financial head above water whilst the industry totally ignores him.
Don't go there.
The advice is simple and it is clear. If you must train then do so slowly, via modular, keeping debt as low as possible and leave the IR and the ATPL exams as late as possible. Train cheap, borrow little, take your time. That's where the smart money's at.
Back in the 'golden age for wannabeism' as I described it at the time in 2006 the advice was to get your backside into a large FTO and be sat on a jet flightdeck a year later and never mind the cost outlay - look at the career opportunity. Times have changed and so has the advice.
WWW
Don't go there.
The advice is simple and it is clear. If you must train then do so slowly, via modular, keeping debt as low as possible and leave the IR and the ATPL exams as late as possible. Train cheap, borrow little, take your time. That's where the smart money's at.
Back in the 'golden age for wannabeism' as I described it at the time in 2006 the advice was to get your backside into a large FTO and be sat on a jet flightdeck a year later and never mind the cost outlay - look at the career opportunity. Times have changed and so has the advice.
WWW
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Well, the question is if it is at all possible to predict the right time to start. I think not. Nobody could foresee 9/11 and the impact it had, and also the credit crunch came as a surprise to most people, and now it is anybodies guess when the recession will be fading out.
And when will the surplus of experienced pilots, who have been laid off over the last couple of years be fully absorbed into the industry or elsewhere?
No matter what the current situation is like, it has only limited bearing on how thinks will be in two years time and almost non on the more distant future.
I think anybodies guess is as good as any, and I do not believe that professional pilots or others in the industry have a better chance of predicting the world’s economical fluctuations and the influence on the industry than for instance economists (I’m one and haven’t got a clue).
All I would dare to say is that it will take some time (years?) for the economy to get back to ‘normal’, and that it may or may not coincide with when anybody finishes his training.
About getting rusty: How likely has it ever been, that you would get a job before your standard started to decay (BTW, do we have a ‘when did you train, and when did you get your first airline job’-statistic?).
The idea of taking the modular route and slow it down a bit might work, but ones you started on the ATPL exams, the clock is ticking and that is the first thing you do after the PPL and some hour building. After the first exam you are 'committed to land' both financially and time wise.
No matter what, I think you must anticipate that it could take a while (months or years) before you get that job, and plan accordingly to keep you current and afloat.
The Viking
And when will the surplus of experienced pilots, who have been laid off over the last couple of years be fully absorbed into the industry or elsewhere?
No matter what the current situation is like, it has only limited bearing on how thinks will be in two years time and almost non on the more distant future.
I think anybodies guess is as good as any, and I do not believe that professional pilots or others in the industry have a better chance of predicting the world’s economical fluctuations and the influence on the industry than for instance economists (I’m one and haven’t got a clue).
All I would dare to say is that it will take some time (years?) for the economy to get back to ‘normal’, and that it may or may not coincide with when anybody finishes his training.
About getting rusty: How likely has it ever been, that you would get a job before your standard started to decay (BTW, do we have a ‘when did you train, and when did you get your first airline job’-statistic?).
The idea of taking the modular route and slow it down a bit might work, but ones you started on the ATPL exams, the clock is ticking and that is the first thing you do after the PPL and some hour building. After the first exam you are 'committed to land' both financially and time wise.
No matter what, I think you must anticipate that it could take a while (months or years) before you get that job, and plan accordingly to keep you current and afloat.
The Viking
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AMS, my plan is similar and I too would like some advice as to whether it is perhaps the most suitable way to achieve my goal in the current situation.
Will be taking my PPL skills test in the next few weeks. Then, I will continue to work, whilst studying to further my academic qualifications and hopefully further/secure my position within my current company. During this time I will be flying when I can and be slowly building my hours. This doesnt mean I will spend every last penny on flying, nor does it mean that I will do 3 circuits in a 152 once a month. A steady approach coupled with some "interesting" flying should the oppurtunities prevail.
In roughly 3 years time, when I estimate to have around 150 hours I will re-assess the market and go from there. If the market looks like its picking up fast and there may be job oppertunities, I will expedite the next part of the training. If it needs more time, then I will take a modular approach, stay in work and take my time.
I dont really hear of anyone undertaking training in this way. People I speak to don't seem to think that flying on a PPL without doing 100 hours in a month in Florida is common practice.
Will be taking my PPL skills test in the next few weeks. Then, I will continue to work, whilst studying to further my academic qualifications and hopefully further/secure my position within my current company. During this time I will be flying when I can and be slowly building my hours. This doesnt mean I will spend every last penny on flying, nor does it mean that I will do 3 circuits in a 152 once a month. A steady approach coupled with some "interesting" flying should the oppurtunities prevail.
In roughly 3 years time, when I estimate to have around 150 hours I will re-assess the market and go from there. If the market looks like its picking up fast and there may be job oppertunities, I will expedite the next part of the training. If it needs more time, then I will take a modular approach, stay in work and take my time.
I dont really hear of anyone undertaking training in this way. People I speak to don't seem to think that flying on a PPL without doing 100 hours in a month in Florida is common practice.
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Times have changed and so has the advice.
Really, spending money on professional flight training as an investment is in the 'insanely risky' category. It is more realistic to think of it like lending money to a relative; done for love rather than the certainty of ever getting it back!
If you must train then do so slowly, via modular, keeping debt as low as possible and leave the IR and the ATPL exams as late as possible. Train cheap, borrow little, take your time.
There is nothing, NOTHING more pathetic, soul destroying and sad as a guy covered in rust, with a dusty CPL in his shirt pocket and a cobweb ridden log book desperately trying to keep his financial head above water whilst the industry totally ignores him.
Any small percentage training fee saving is swallowed whole by a single IR renewal.
If you turn up a school, do a course, and then go back to your old life and wait for the airlines to start recruiting..... well..... good luck. The way forward in this industry (if you ignore the advice and are crazy enough to enter it) is to get involved as soon as you can (time waits for no one) and get to know people. In this game personal contacts = job opportunities. Against the benefit of that, the cost of a bit of refresher training now and then is insignificant. If that represents an unbearable financial burden then you've already overextended yourself.
Think of the industry as being like the national lottery. Yes, it's stacked against you, but if you don't buy a ticket you can't win. Personally though, I don't like gambling
So,its not a good time to train... because it's never a good time to train, because the industry is a pile of steaming excrement. However, there are worse times to train, especially during booms!
Basically, when (or more likely IF) we see an improvement, there will be three categories of people.
1. Those that thought about flying but didn't do it who are X years into a different profession.
2. Those who are qualified, have gained relevant industrial experience in some form, and who have a network of contacts. Entering an airline job in the first wave of recruiting, such individuals often get early commands and training appointments.
3. Those who are sitting on the fence waiting for things to pick up before getting started, who hopefully will make it into a right hand seat before things go pear shaped again.
My advice is be in group 1. But if you don't want to be in group 1, you're far better off in group 2 rather than 3.
In summary, it may not be a 'good' time to train. It is however a 'least bad' time - if you are sensible, financially prudent, and dedicated.
pb
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Forecasting the job market, aka ‘How long is a piece of string?’
At the risk of sounding like a scratched record, if you buy the argument that good timing is a key to success, you’ll want to try and predict the state of the market when you qualify. My crystal ball is no better than anyone else’s, but experience of the last two recessions is a good starting point. And I say again, it took years for the job market to recover.
Signing up for an integrated course, you will be qualifying in 14 months time or so, irrespective of job prospects.
Go modular, and from the date of passing the last ATPL exam (which itself is flexible) you have a 3 year window to pass the IR. Any time within that window, the CPL and IR can be done in 3 months, start to finish, and at a time that suits you and the job market. Ergo, you have more control over your timing. I did just that, and it worked for me.
I would suggest that whatever state the industry is in, it’s a lot easier to predict what things will be like in 3 months rather than 14.
Signing up for an integrated course, you will be qualifying in 14 months time or so, irrespective of job prospects.
Go modular, and from the date of passing the last ATPL exam (which itself is flexible) you have a 3 year window to pass the IR. Any time within that window, the CPL and IR can be done in 3 months, start to finish, and at a time that suits you and the job market. Ergo, you have more control over your timing. I did just that, and it worked for me.
I would suggest that whatever state the industry is in, it’s a lot easier to predict what things will be like in 3 months rather than 14.
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Any time within that window, the CPL and IR can be done in 3 months, start to finish, and at a time that suits you
Put those two things together and you have a witches brew for delayed training. The cumulative effect has to be seen to be believed - I'm not just talking about a few weeks! I've seen people needing to wait for a year to get a course, and another year for a test slot. (although to be fair I think the latter situation is much less serious since GFT examining authority is delegated by the CAA).
How do you know an FTO is BSing about aircraft/instructor/test slot availability? Their lips are moving. (an old recycled joke I know, but apt in my experience.)
pb
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return on investment,
Your decisions are some of the most sensible comments written on this forum in months.
I was 19 when i first started flying but unlike many of todays financially niave wannabe army quickly learnt that i was going to sink some serious cash to go commercial and was not comfortable borrowing what was required. I took a non flying job, saved my money, invested it wisely and when the timing was right in my thirties decided to get my ATPL. I figured it was my money and mine to loose. I never borrowed a penny/cent, didnt have to sell my home, the only thing i have is a small bond to pay for my command if i leave my employer in the next 12 months.
Todays credit card army of wannabes dont understand that intrest charges will eat you alive for years even if you have a good income.
Many of the FO's i fly with today, - dont get me wrong - who are really good guys/gals - tell me about the level of debt and the financial commitments they have and its hurrendus, absolute commercial suicide. It gives me a very smug feeling inside knowing that my more conservative actions over the years were right and they will be paying for theirs for a long time to come!!!
Good Luck!! Never say never!!
Your decisions are some of the most sensible comments written on this forum in months.
I was 19 when i first started flying but unlike many of todays financially niave wannabe army quickly learnt that i was going to sink some serious cash to go commercial and was not comfortable borrowing what was required. I took a non flying job, saved my money, invested it wisely and when the timing was right in my thirties decided to get my ATPL. I figured it was my money and mine to loose. I never borrowed a penny/cent, didnt have to sell my home, the only thing i have is a small bond to pay for my command if i leave my employer in the next 12 months.
Todays credit card army of wannabes dont understand that intrest charges will eat you alive for years even if you have a good income.
Many of the FO's i fly with today, - dont get me wrong - who are really good guys/gals - tell me about the level of debt and the financial commitments they have and its hurrendus, absolute commercial suicide. It gives me a very smug feeling inside knowing that my more conservative actions over the years were right and they will be paying for theirs for a long time to come!!!
Good Luck!! Never say never!!
Last edited by LAX; 20th Oct 2009 at 15:07.
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Thanks LAX.
Let's assume that commercial pilot training costs £60000. I'm worried that people do not realise just how much money this really is. Please let me explain how hard it is to save this much money:-
I had a part time job at University and graduated 14 years ago with no debts. I started work in sales for a Blue Chip company and have worked hard ever since. I am very fortunate in that I have always had a job with a fully expensed company car, pension, free shares etc and earned a decent living. I have been careful with money and have always saved/invested a certain percentage of my earnings. Along the way I have had the usual financial hurdles to overcome that most people have/will have i.e, buying my own home, getting married, having holidays, buying gadgets for my home, beer etc.
Just recently I realised I had enough in savings to fund pilot training. But, it has taken me 14 years of working hard, being frugal and saving to do it and in my line of work people don't pay for their training. Please do not underestimate how hard this has been.
The really scary thing is that someone can sign away £60000 + interest of their not even guaranteed future earnings in about 5 minutes by signing a piece of paper.
As I am not a pilot I know nothing about actually being one. However if real life professional pilots like WWW & G-SXTY are willing to invest their time and tell others how it is and that there are no jobs for the foreseeable I will listen. If and when the pros say the market is improving I might well go for it - with my own cash fully prepared that there is a risk I might lose it.
The only viable options I can see for wannabees at the moment is either:-
1. Pay as you go for your training and heed the advice of the pros when pacing yourself - always keep your account in credit.
2. Save now for your future training.
Let's assume that commercial pilot training costs £60000. I'm worried that people do not realise just how much money this really is. Please let me explain how hard it is to save this much money:-
I had a part time job at University and graduated 14 years ago with no debts. I started work in sales for a Blue Chip company and have worked hard ever since. I am very fortunate in that I have always had a job with a fully expensed company car, pension, free shares etc and earned a decent living. I have been careful with money and have always saved/invested a certain percentage of my earnings. Along the way I have had the usual financial hurdles to overcome that most people have/will have i.e, buying my own home, getting married, having holidays, buying gadgets for my home, beer etc.
Just recently I realised I had enough in savings to fund pilot training. But, it has taken me 14 years of working hard, being frugal and saving to do it and in my line of work people don't pay for their training. Please do not underestimate how hard this has been.
The really scary thing is that someone can sign away £60000 + interest of their not even guaranteed future earnings in about 5 minutes by signing a piece of paper.
As I am not a pilot I know nothing about actually being one. However if real life professional pilots like WWW & G-SXTY are willing to invest their time and tell others how it is and that there are no jobs for the foreseeable I will listen. If and when the pros say the market is improving I might well go for it - with my own cash fully prepared that there is a risk I might lose it.
The only viable options I can see for wannabees at the moment is either:-
1. Pay as you go for your training and heed the advice of the pros when pacing yourself - always keep your account in credit.
2. Save now for your future training.
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PilotPieces,
Your way of thinking sounds fairly similar to mine. I have a full time job, and I am slowly building up hours on my PPL. I aim to challenge myself in each flight and avoid circuit bashing in order to advance my experience.
So not only am I slowly creeping the hours up, but I can also save a fair amount of money each month to put into the pot.
I don't intend to start ATPL groundschool until I have close to the 150, people may think this is a bad idea as you will not be as current for starting the CPL but I think it is a method best suited to these times.
......... Perhaps the Tortoise will win the race, maybe.
Your way of thinking sounds fairly similar to mine. I have a full time job, and I am slowly building up hours on my PPL. I aim to challenge myself in each flight and avoid circuit bashing in order to advance my experience.
So not only am I slowly creeping the hours up, but I can also save a fair amount of money each month to put into the pot.
I don't intend to start ATPL groundschool until I have close to the 150, people may think this is a bad idea as you will not be as current for starting the CPL but I think it is a method best suited to these times.
......... Perhaps the Tortoise will win the race, maybe.
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Yeah, that is something that I have been told regarding the currency and any bad habits that I may have. However, surely having to iron these out during the CPL/IR is a thousand times better than trying to get a job with an fATPL having not flown for 2 years!
Personally, I don't see the rush. I want to enjoy flying on a PPL for a while rather than going straight to CPL level.
Personally, I don't see the rush. I want to enjoy flying on a PPL for a while rather than going straight to CPL level.
ROI - congratulations on doing the thing the sensible way around.
It is very common to find a young FO with an £85k loan arranged by CTC with HSBC. The rate of interest is around 7%. When you look at the total repayment of the loan principal + the interest you arrive at a figure of around £140k usually with a typical ten year repayment plan following a one year repayment break post training.
Now that's fair enough but still scary when you're being placed straight into a profitable airline who will pay at conventional salary levels (albeit fiddled about with as loan repayments to make it more tax efficient). I can think of several ex-CTC cadets who got into BA as soon as they had 500hrs and are now year three BA pilots. Given their low seniority (nobody much has been hired behind them) they are not being able to bid for much work and no lucrative trips. With the loan repayments they are left each month with £1,500 to live off. In London/South East. A bit of rent, council tax, running the car, food and they have NOTHING left at the end of the month for any 'lifestyle' whatsoever. In one or two cases its move back into the parental home time already due to the burden of the debt. 25, a BA pilot NOT on a cadet salary and you're forced to live with your mum and dad still..
These debts are soooo easy to get into (well, they were) but the total repayments are huge. It takes so long to get back to being worth net nothing that you'll be well bored by your career choice before the loan is cleared.
Now put this scenario into the present context and remove the full time normal salary level employment and the risks are just insane. Pile an extra £33k on for one of MOL's type £16k type ratings or get lucky and hired by Flybe on the Dash for £29k and the numbers just do not add up if you're using borrowed money.
Of course, for the sensible man who is spending his saving and has no debt and no debt interest life is a lot more comfortable.
I used to think £55k was mega bucks to spend on starting a career as a commercial pilot. I spent £16.5k in 1998! Now I see people spending well North of £100k all the time.
Its become normal but it really isn't. The debt society that we have allowed to be built does none of us any good and I think that fact is growing into a widely held opinion.
WWW
It is very common to find a young FO with an £85k loan arranged by CTC with HSBC. The rate of interest is around 7%. When you look at the total repayment of the loan principal + the interest you arrive at a figure of around £140k usually with a typical ten year repayment plan following a one year repayment break post training.
Now that's fair enough but still scary when you're being placed straight into a profitable airline who will pay at conventional salary levels (albeit fiddled about with as loan repayments to make it more tax efficient). I can think of several ex-CTC cadets who got into BA as soon as they had 500hrs and are now year three BA pilots. Given their low seniority (nobody much has been hired behind them) they are not being able to bid for much work and no lucrative trips. With the loan repayments they are left each month with £1,500 to live off. In London/South East. A bit of rent, council tax, running the car, food and they have NOTHING left at the end of the month for any 'lifestyle' whatsoever. In one or two cases its move back into the parental home time already due to the burden of the debt. 25, a BA pilot NOT on a cadet salary and you're forced to live with your mum and dad still..
These debts are soooo easy to get into (well, they were) but the total repayments are huge. It takes so long to get back to being worth net nothing that you'll be well bored by your career choice before the loan is cleared.
Now put this scenario into the present context and remove the full time normal salary level employment and the risks are just insane. Pile an extra £33k on for one of MOL's type £16k type ratings or get lucky and hired by Flybe on the Dash for £29k and the numbers just do not add up if you're using borrowed money.
Of course, for the sensible man who is spending his saving and has no debt and no debt interest life is a lot more comfortable.
I used to think £55k was mega bucks to spend on starting a career as a commercial pilot. I spent £16.5k in 1998! Now I see people spending well North of £100k all the time.
Its become normal but it really isn't. The debt society that we have allowed to be built does none of us any good and I think that fact is growing into a widely held opinion.
WWW
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Thanks to the wise works of WWW and the likes here on pprune i have taken the decision not to embark on the integrated route i once thought i would.
I am completing the sale of a business at the minute and with savings made over the past few years i should have north of £140k to play with but the thought of giving £100k of it away to OAA, CTC, etc and still have no job at the end of it scares me slightly
So i've made the decision to invest a good chunk of money, get a part time job and use my captial to go the modular route, i'm already 1/2 way through my PPL anyway so i'll continue on with my local school right through IMC, Night and up to 150hrs then take care of the ATPL's, IR, etc with one of the training schools when the time comes. I'm looking at a time of roughly 3 years from now to be sitting with my f(ATPL) and no debt.
Sensible decision or any thoughts which could see it wotk better for me??
I am completing the sale of a business at the minute and with savings made over the past few years i should have north of £140k to play with but the thought of giving £100k of it away to OAA, CTC, etc and still have no job at the end of it scares me slightly
So i've made the decision to invest a good chunk of money, get a part time job and use my captial to go the modular route, i'm already 1/2 way through my PPL anyway so i'll continue on with my local school right through IMC, Night and up to 150hrs then take care of the ATPL's, IR, etc with one of the training schools when the time comes. I'm looking at a time of roughly 3 years from now to be sitting with my f(ATPL) and no debt.
Sensible decision or any thoughts which could see it wotk better for me??
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Yeah i totally agree with you W. I worked and saved up the money and although it's been 6 months since i finished i have nobody knocking on my door demanding money and i'm totally comfortable. I did get a phone call from BA giving me a start date for line training 
so it's not all doom and gloom
so it's not all doom and gloom
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Ricky, that sounds like an entirely sensible plan, and I suspect your timescale is about right too. Even if it isn't, you'll have the flexibility to speed things up or slow down as appropriate.
Best of luck.
Best of luck.
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Where they hell have all these sensible wannabies suddenly appeared from?
WWW have you put a chav filter or maybe some special script which detects MS flight sim and auto deletes the bollocks posts automatically.
Only thing I would suggest to the ones that have a bit of cash is get a share in something and go and do some interesting hour building.
Some suggestions
go and have a moose burger in the artic circle.
Go for a tapas in Gib (wouldn't land there mind)
Have a look at other things which add character to your CV.
TA is out now because they have chopped the training.
Special constable
Mountain leader course if that floats your boat.
Scout leader.
Yacht Master.
Anything which your average person doesn't do.
Most of the CV's that get sent to airlines have absolutely nothing on them to distinguish from any other 200 hour pilot.
And some of the absolute rubbish that's put out you wonder if the person was on drugs thinking that is expectable to apply as an aircraft cleaner never mind drive the thing.
In the 3 years I have had access to the pile of CV's that float around, some of them never change. There is one bloke that lives in Birmingham who over the last 3 years has done 50 hours flying and still has the 2 same spelling mistakes on his CV that he produced when he left training in 2006.
My grammar and spelling are not the best and its something I have had to deal with through out my education/careers. These days there is no excuse for getting it wrong, computers can deal with most of it. There are coaches out there who are gifted in the subject. Our own Pilot Pete on pprune used to run such a service. Never used it myself but if your CV isn't working its worth a try.
Ohh and my FO debt record is 120k from a OAT trained, 2 self sponsored TR's . They are now earning 19k a year on a turboprop. Its utter madness. 2 years ago we would never see an OAT cadet or their CV's, now there are hundreds of them. And they just don't seem to see that promoting the virtues of a 737 EFIS JOC really doesn't help your cause when you are applying to fly a 25 year old steam instrument manual turboprop.
WWW have you put a chav filter or maybe some special script which detects MS flight sim and auto deletes the bollocks posts automatically.
Only thing I would suggest to the ones that have a bit of cash is get a share in something and go and do some interesting hour building.
Some suggestions
go and have a moose burger in the artic circle.
Go for a tapas in Gib (wouldn't land there mind)
Have a look at other things which add character to your CV.
TA is out now because they have chopped the training.
Special constable
Mountain leader course if that floats your boat.
Scout leader.
Yacht Master.
Anything which your average person doesn't do.
Most of the CV's that get sent to airlines have absolutely nothing on them to distinguish from any other 200 hour pilot.
And some of the absolute rubbish that's put out you wonder if the person was on drugs thinking that is expectable to apply as an aircraft cleaner never mind drive the thing.
In the 3 years I have had access to the pile of CV's that float around, some of them never change. There is one bloke that lives in Birmingham who over the last 3 years has done 50 hours flying and still has the 2 same spelling mistakes on his CV that he produced when he left training in 2006.
My grammar and spelling are not the best and its something I have had to deal with through out my education/careers. These days there is no excuse for getting it wrong, computers can deal with most of it. There are coaches out there who are gifted in the subject. Our own Pilot Pete on pprune used to run such a service. Never used it myself but if your CV isn't working its worth a try.
Ohh and my FO debt record is 120k from a OAT trained, 2 self sponsored TR's . They are now earning 19k a year on a turboprop. Its utter madness. 2 years ago we would never see an OAT cadet or their CV's, now there are hundreds of them. And they just don't seem to see that promoting the virtues of a 737 EFIS JOC really doesn't help your cause when you are applying to fly a 25 year old steam instrument manual turboprop.
Last edited by mad_jock; 21st Oct 2009 at 12:47.
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Originally Posted by Wee Weasley Welshman
total repayment of the loan principal + the interest you arrive at a figure of around £140k
But I guess you can't put a price on being able to tell chicks that you're an airline pilot.
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...until you mention your salary and they realise they earn more than you. Unfortunately girls these days seem more interested in your credit card limit; where bigger is most definately better.
MJ,
Spelling mistakes asides, 50 hrs in three years isn't that bad though it would depend what they consisted off. At least he should be relatively current assuming some of that time is IR renewal. Endorse your other comments, though.
Spelling mistakes asides, 50 hrs in three years isn't that bad though it would depend what they consisted off. At least he should be relatively current assuming some of that time is IR renewal. Endorse your other comments, though.