Is now a good time to train? You might be surprised!
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Is now a good time to train? You might be surprised!
"Is now a good time to train? You might be surprised" is the message the greets me on pprune this week, advertising the FLYER Professional Flight Training Exhibition.
I don't have a crystal ball, but I really don't think in 18 months time the aviation world will have bounced back enough for 200 hour Oxford graduates to be walking into BA (although I have doubts BA will even survive that long).
The annoying thing is that I have an article from Flyer issued last year suggesting that it would have been the best time to train, you'd be ready with a CPL/IR when the upturn occured and would be at an advantage over those who'd let their licenses lapse.
I personally have held back from going any further with my training, I fly privately and as regularly as possible. I work a in stable well paid job, and can't justify doing the training to not fly, when at the moment I can. But if I believed these seminars then.................
I don't have a crystal ball, but I really don't think in 18 months time the aviation world will have bounced back enough for 200 hour Oxford graduates to be walking into BA (although I have doubts BA will even survive that long).
The annoying thing is that I have an article from Flyer issued last year suggesting that it would have been the best time to train, you'd be ready with a CPL/IR when the upturn occured and would be at an advantage over those who'd let their licenses lapse.
I personally have held back from going any further with my training, I fly privately and as regularly as possible. I work a in stable well paid job, and can't justify doing the training to not fly, when at the moment I can. But if I believed these seminars then.................
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I don't think anyone honestly believes everything training organisations tell them so will treat this with the suspicion it deserves. They can say what they like (within reason), after all they're trying to stay afloat, but we all know it's just advertising fluff.
PS I'll take your word for it as to what the ads say, I use AdBlocker
PS I'll take your word for it as to what the ads say, I use AdBlocker
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unbelievable
Schools will say anything to get people through the door.. i know many pilots who would really not agree that this is a good time to train (im one of them).
I've met the editor of Flyer and he's a nice chap.
But the business model is driven by advertising and the biggest advertiser by a country mile are the various FTO's. The wise do not bite the hand that feeds them.
Although here we do exactly that. Always have done. The banner ad above is probably from a flying training organisation.
This is a crap time to train for a commerical pilots license. There are already thousands of JAA license holders out of work desperate to fly anything for anybody. They will be joined over the next two winters by more thousands of pilots made unemployed by the Airlines who go bust. The recession will soon be over. After that we enter the prime airline popping years.
It will take 5 - 7 years before the good times return for pilot hiring.
In the meantime if you can afford £33k for Ryanair to perpetuate their concept of flying for nothing there is work available IF you can afford the ticket price and IF you're willing to work under hugely onerous terms.
This really isn't the time to be making yourself a Wannabe. Really. Really.
WWW
But the business model is driven by advertising and the biggest advertiser by a country mile are the various FTO's. The wise do not bite the hand that feeds them.
Although here we do exactly that. Always have done. The banner ad above is probably from a flying training organisation.
This is a crap time to train for a commerical pilots license. There are already thousands of JAA license holders out of work desperate to fly anything for anybody. They will be joined over the next two winters by more thousands of pilots made unemployed by the Airlines who go bust. The recession will soon be over. After that we enter the prime airline popping years.
It will take 5 - 7 years before the good times return for pilot hiring.
In the meantime if you can afford £33k for Ryanair to perpetuate their concept of flying for nothing there is work available IF you can afford the ticket price and IF you're willing to work under hugely onerous terms.
This really isn't the time to be making yourself a Wannabe. Really. Really.
WWW
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I don't think anyone honestly believes everything training organisations tell them
Cheers
Whirls
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Do yourself a favour and stay away. Go to university and learn to be a doctor, dentist,vet, engineer. This industry is pretty sick at the best of times. Im seriously considering another profession. I love flying but the people in this industry from bottom to top are just interested in lining their own pockets and looking out for themselves. Even when you make the big shiney world of jets there is no job security, decaying terms and conditions and salary well below par. May sound like a rant but i wish somebody had laid down some home truths before i spent 60k.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
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Was visiting an old pal the other day that operates and flies a corporate jet buisness. he was telling me that "Netjets" have laid off 350 pilots in the last few months!!...not forgetting these are all well experianced guys with many hours under their belts all now looking for re employment!!....I work in ATC and its quite frightening how traffic firures at our unit have also fallen in the last month or so...things seem to have gone very quiet all of a sudden....may be on the street myself soon selling the "Big issue".. 
Interesting perspectives.
I know Captains at well established UK airlines who are working two days in November.
Two days.
It takes a while. But eventually the beam breaks and the floor collapses.
DO. NOT. START. OR. CONTINUE. FLYING. TRAINING. NOW. UNLESS. YOU. HAVE. TO.
WWW
I know Captains at well established UK airlines who are working two days in November.
Two days.
It takes a while. But eventually the beam breaks and the floor collapses.
DO. NOT. START. OR. CONTINUE. FLYING. TRAINING. NOW. UNLESS. YOU. HAVE. TO.
WWW
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I have been watching the aviation industry since the 90s, and I don' t beleive it is worth getting trained anymore. 2 exceptions:
1-free training (paid by the company, governement...),
2-Cheap training, under $20000 (under 15000 Euro). Glider licence (or anyting else that count towards you CPL total time), then PPL, CPL, then a single piston job anywhere in the world. Then build your time from there, if nothing happen after few years, well you can change career without debts.
Don' t spend $150 000 for training, even after the recession.
Take option #1 or #2, and I promise you won't be in debt for a job, and I promise the airlines will change their behaviour if most of you guys follow one of those 2 path.
1-free training (paid by the company, governement...),
2-Cheap training, under $20000 (under 15000 Euro). Glider licence (or anyting else that count towards you CPL total time), then PPL, CPL, then a single piston job anywhere in the world. Then build your time from there, if nothing happen after few years, well you can change career without debts.
Don' t spend $150 000 for training, even after the recession.
Take option #1 or #2, and I promise you won't be in debt for a job, and I promise the airlines will change their behaviour if most of you guys follow one of those 2 path.
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I know Captains at well established UK airlines who are working two days in November.
Two days.
Two days.
There may only be two flights rostered, but there are usually a lot of standbys, some of which get converted at short notice to cover ad hoc flying that arises during the period.
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Couldn't agree more with Whirls. We've seen fairly recent posts on here from wannabees who clearly started training when it was very very very very clear to see the economy was FUBAR.
And yet they go headlong into training, and in some annoying cases, can hardly believe that they can not gain real employment with an airline (read into "real" what you will, that's another debate) with their shiny blue book with OAA, Cabair (insert FTO of your choice) stamped on it.
Seriously, these people are genuinely surprised, almost offended, by the fact that their little blue book is not a passport to fortune and riches.
Until the zombie army wakes up to this fact, more and more will go "over the top with their canes" and get a hell of a rude awakening at the other side. I do think quite a few wannabees do think "it won't happen to me, I'll be the best in my class, get referrals, nah, won't happen to me...."
How you best advise, I don't know. You can give them your perspective from inside the industry (my own situation is quite perilous, already taken a 30% pay cut, as are my mates in other airlines), but they seem to dismiss this as negativity and "upsetting their dream".
Unfortunately I think with some there is no telling, and they will find out the hard way, regardless. Ouch.
And yet they go headlong into training, and in some annoying cases, can hardly believe that they can not gain real employment with an airline (read into "real" what you will, that's another debate) with their shiny blue book with OAA, Cabair (insert FTO of your choice) stamped on it.
Seriously, these people are genuinely surprised, almost offended, by the fact that their little blue book is not a passport to fortune and riches.
Until the zombie army wakes up to this fact, more and more will go "over the top with their canes" and get a hell of a rude awakening at the other side. I do think quite a few wannabees do think "it won't happen to me, I'll be the best in my class, get referrals, nah, won't happen to me...."
How you best advise, I don't know. You can give them your perspective from inside the industry (my own situation is quite perilous, already taken a 30% pay cut, as are my mates in other airlines), but they seem to dismiss this as negativity and "upsetting their dream".
Unfortunately I think with some there is no telling, and they will find out the hard way, regardless. Ouch.
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I am someone who did listen! I really am grateful to WWW and others who take the time to post here and let wannabees know how things really are.
Earlier this year I was seriously considering trading my perfectly good but a bit mundane job as an account manager to become a pilot. I did my class 1 and the GAPAN aptitiude tests and realised that physically I had a good chance of success - and then spent several evenings reading all the posts here about the state of the industry and job opportunities.
I realised that although becoming a pilot had always been my dream job the reality was that pilot training would be a huge expense with very little realistic return in the form of a job offer. I am very grateful that PPRuNe exists and that there are professional pilots that willingly give up some of their free time to educate others. Where else would I have received such clarity and insight into the world of being a commercial pilot - my local FTO was saying "It's never been a better time to train!"
Although I am disappointed that I won't be a commercial pilot I now have even more respect for the pilots that do make it.
Thanks again!
Earlier this year I was seriously considering trading my perfectly good but a bit mundane job as an account manager to become a pilot. I did my class 1 and the GAPAN aptitiude tests and realised that physically I had a good chance of success - and then spent several evenings reading all the posts here about the state of the industry and job opportunities.
I realised that although becoming a pilot had always been my dream job the reality was that pilot training would be a huge expense with very little realistic return in the form of a job offer. I am very grateful that PPRuNe exists and that there are professional pilots that willingly give up some of their free time to educate others. Where else would I have received such clarity and insight into the world of being a commercial pilot - my local FTO was saying "It's never been a better time to train!"
Although I am disappointed that I won't be a commercial pilot I now have even more respect for the pilots that do make it.
Thanks again!
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Originally Posted by Whirls
But they do - all those who genuinely believe integrated training is best and will get them straight into a job and all those who genuinely believe Oxford is the best school and will get them straight into a job.
I suppose what I meant was I hope nobody does. If they're that gullible I've a nice bridge for sale in London and $100m in a Nigerian bank account I'll split with them.
Return-On-Investment - I'm pleased that this place stopped you following the FTO marketing to a place of rack and ruin.
Good times will be seen again so maybe in the future you might dive back into commercial aviation. Its a brilliant job that can be well paid and extremely satisfying. I would hate to have to do something else. For all the time I spend issuing dire warnings I *love* flying for a living. Its a dream job.
WWW
Good times will be seen again so maybe in the future you might dive back into commercial aviation. Its a brilliant job that can be well paid and extremely satisfying. I would hate to have to do something else. For all the time I spend issuing dire warnings I *love* flying for a living. Its a dream job.
WWW
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WWW - Thanks again!
I really appreciate that you tell it how it is. You are a great advocate for your profession and your "dire warnings" are gifts from an expert that save wannabees whose dreams have overtaken their resources when there is little chance of employment in the current pilot market.
I will keep my current job and save/invest for the future. If and when the good times return (please could you let me know nearer the time when you think this is!) and there is a good chance of success I will have the resources available to train.
Enjoy your well deserved dream job.
I really appreciate that you tell it how it is. You are a great advocate for your profession and your "dire warnings" are gifts from an expert that save wannabees whose dreams have overtaken their resources when there is little chance of employment in the current pilot market.
I will keep my current job and save/invest for the future. If and when the good times return (please could you let me know nearer the time when you think this is!) and there is a good chance of success I will have the resources available to train.
Enjoy your well deserved dream job.
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Agree things are extremely bad, in Aviaiton at the moment and that FTO's are going to say exactly what we want to hear wether fact or not, but its not as if everyone whos coming out of training isnt getting a job a few do.
I guess all we read on here is doom and gloom, because the guys who are out there who are getting jobs are not posting on here, and maybe the ones who cant have nothing better to do but post doom on here.
Im going into full time training at Oxford [hopefully], with my eyes wide open, im even selling a buisness thats paid me real well for 10yrs now. A dreams a dream no matter how slim the chances of success are.
I guess all we read on here is doom and gloom, because the guys who are out there who are getting jobs are not posting on here, and maybe the ones who cant have nothing better to do but post doom on here.
Im going into full time training at Oxford [hopefully], with my eyes wide open, im even selling a buisness thats paid me real well for 10yrs now. A dreams a dream no matter how slim the chances of success are.
I do think the 2012 Olympic Games will give several UK airlines a very healthy year and off the back of that there could well be the start of an expansion phase. From 2007 - 2013 would be 6 years which would rhyme with the last recession 1990 - 1996 for airlines (1990 when it all collapsed and 1996 when recruitment returned to 'healthy' levels).
The World will never be short of fully qualified inexperienced pilots. But there will be a time once more when the World stops spitting on them and stealing their dinner money..
WWW
The World will never be short of fully qualified inexperienced pilots. But there will be a time once more when the World stops spitting on them and stealing their dinner money..
WWW
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its a tough choice.......but common sense has to prevail.
My situation has given me some sleepless nights to say the least, 3 years in the minefield of the wanabee army, FTOs telling me its always the best time to train, you gotta be realistic and open your eyes to what going on around you.
I have a family , a morgage and a decent paying job, but i love flying and would give my right arm to fly for a living. Unfortunately the current climate dictates that you would have to be insane to spend money on a commercial licence.
Due to work/family commitments i didnt finnish my modular route to a frozen ATPL. I currently have my PPL, ATPL exams and 160 hours. Right in line for the CPL. Problem is my exams expire next june. I may cosider the CPL at the most and just keep enjoying flying as a hobby. It may come round in a few years and i then consider the IR. I do fear now though for even the most experienced of guys who have given years of service to companys, and who are now fearful of loosing their jobs.
Ts and Cs are nothing like they used to be, and i dont ever see that coming back. It will be interesting to see what the climate will be like in 4-5 years.
My situation has given me some sleepless nights to say the least, 3 years in the minefield of the wanabee army, FTOs telling me its always the best time to train, you gotta be realistic and open your eyes to what going on around you.
I have a family , a morgage and a decent paying job, but i love flying and would give my right arm to fly for a living. Unfortunately the current climate dictates that you would have to be insane to spend money on a commercial licence.
Due to work/family commitments i didnt finnish my modular route to a frozen ATPL. I currently have my PPL, ATPL exams and 160 hours. Right in line for the CPL. Problem is my exams expire next june. I may cosider the CPL at the most and just keep enjoying flying as a hobby. It may come round in a few years and i then consider the IR. I do fear now though for even the most experienced of guys who have given years of service to companys, and who are now fearful of loosing their jobs.
Ts and Cs are nothing like they used to be, and i dont ever see that coming back. It will be interesting to see what the climate will be like in 4-5 years.
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Return On Investment- I see what your saying about keeping your funds for when the industry improves, but I also see your age is 36 are you not worried it will be too late?
I have had the exact worry at 30 and although it would be so easy staying in my current lifestyle and job that pays me very well, I know the years are slipping by, and its really now or never for me.
I have had the exact worry at 30 and although it would be so easy staying in my current lifestyle and job that pays me very well, I know the years are slipping by, and its really now or never for me.
