Hours building in Florida..visa
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The paperwork for validation of JAR PPL with UK CAA and the FAA took just around 4 - 5 weeks, and for me is valid until August.
I wanted to go there and get some hours of experience - but not at any price.
And as some people mention regarding the weather in Florida, can be pretty rough sometimes, I have spent much time in Miami the last 5 years on private / business trips - and is not sunshine every day, specially autumn/winter can get nasty.
Once I drove from Miami (Sunshine) to Naples - I stopped and turned around half way, it was not possible to drive to Naples because of to heavy storms, this was in the middle of June.
I think before there was savings because of the exchange rate - now it's no worse or better then anywhere else. Also it is about learning to fly safely in various weather conditions, not just flying when it is CAVOK with vis. +10km!
What's the challenge and fun just to fly in clear weather?
I did briefly look online eg. someone mention Michigan, however rental prices there are similar.
So now the flight review should not cost me more then 1 hours GS + 1 hour flying?
So this offer from EAA was then a rip off offer?
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:
I wanted to go there and get some hours of experience - but not at any price.
And as some people mention regarding the weather in Florida, can be pretty rough sometimes, I have spent much time in Miami the last 5 years on private / business trips - and is not sunshine every day, specially autumn/winter can get nasty.
Once I drove from Miami (Sunshine) to Naples - I stopped and turned around half way, it was not possible to drive to Naples because of to heavy storms, this was in the middle of June.
I think before there was savings because of the exchange rate - now it's no worse or better then anywhere else. Also it is about learning to fly safely in various weather conditions, not just flying when it is CAVOK with vis. +10km!
What's the challenge and fun just to fly in clear weather?
I did briefly look online eg. someone mention Michigan, however rental prices there are similar.
So now the flight review should not cost me more then 1 hours GS + 1 hour flying?
So this offer from EAA was then a rip off offer?
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:
- 6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
- 6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
- For a total of $1,896"
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Tiger
In the Northern US the headline flying rates are much the same as Florida what is cheaper is hotels, car rental, eating out and the nif-naf & trivia that goes with flying.
It is the add on bits that the most peolpe fail to include in the hourly price of the aircraft that push up the true hourly cost.
Florida is a vacation state and is priced as such, get away from Micky Mouse and the prices fall.
It is the add on bits that the most peolpe fail to include in the hourly price of the aircraft that push up the true hourly cost.
Florida is a vacation state and is priced as such, get away from Micky Mouse and the prices fall.
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A and C what places would u recommend apart form Florida...
need something fairly close to a large transatlantic airport-makes life a little easier.
Good weather- obvious reasons.
Maybe somewhere with accommodation nearby, and grocery stores.
also can anyone tell me...I have my FAA letter of authenicity for license validation.Is there anyway i can get my piggyback license in ireland...so i dont have to go looking for the FSDO around orlando etc.
need something fairly close to a large transatlantic airport-makes life a little easier.
Good weather- obvious reasons.
Maybe somewhere with accommodation nearby, and grocery stores.
also can anyone tell me...I have my FAA letter of authenicity for license validation.Is there anyway i can get my piggyback license in ireland...so i dont have to go looking for the FSDO around orlando etc.
also i stand to be corrected. no biannual review is needed. Just get your license validated,get letter of authencitity,meet FSDO official, rental school checks you out
It states it clearly in the FAA Inspectors handbook (formerly order 8900)
which is available online:
Flight Standards Information System (FSIMS)
Almost at the bottom:
Part 61: Issue a Title 14 CFR Part 61 U.S. Pilot Certificate on the Basis of a Foreign-Pilot License
I quote:
As a point of emphasis, make clear to the applicant that a flight review (see § 61.56 ) must be administered by the holder of an FAA flight instructor certificate with the appropriate ratings before he/she may exercise the privileges of his/her U.S. pilot certificate. The proficiency checks administered by a foreign flight instructor do not count as meeting the flight review requirements of § 61.56
14 CFR 61.56 states (amongs other things):
a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground trainingThe review must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and
(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.
The FAA provides guidance on their website as to how a 61.56 Flight review needs to be conducted:
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/m...ght_review.pdf
It's 26 pages by the way.
Same as in Europe the flight review is not meant as a rubber stamping excercise. It is an evaluation of pilot skills and knowledge which you officially cannot fail as it's not a skills test or checkride as such but your instructor may require more training prior to signing the logbook.
With that out of the way let's discuss what has been mentioned in previous posts
I think with the instructor ground time (an hour or so) the total cost was below $300. That $1900 is a rip off! Assuming you are current it really shouldn't be more than a check ride and a little chat to see if you can read the map and know how to make use of the ATC services.
So this offer from EAA was then a rip off offer?
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:
6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
For a total of $1,896"
It is good to know, because he frequently posts on these forums too.
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:
6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
For a total of $1,896"
It is good to know, because he frequently posts on these forums too.
**** Disclaimer, the following rant is not aimed at any of the above posters personally. The word "you" is meant generically as being "you" the reader ****
You need to stop comparing apples and oranges.
There is a big difference between somebody that has a US PPL and have done all of their training in the US and somebody who holds a piggyback license based on a foreign license and NEVER having flown in the US.
It is simply irresponsible to treat both the same.
It seems obvious that "push this button" instruction for 30 min doesn't cut it as far as G1000 operations are concerned.
You will need every minute of those two hours power point presentation and G1000 table top sim. The last one I did took 3 hours because the customer had a lot of (good) questions.
4 hours of ground school is on the low side even if I have to teach you everything thing that a US PPL already knows as far as:
- Airspace
- Charts
- Publications
- Notams
- Radio communications
- ATC services available
- Weather briefings (ground and airborne)
- Regulations ( all VFR related portions of Part 91)
- Maintenance requirements
- Accident and Incident reporting requirements.
Four flights (6 hours) in:
- an airplane type that is unfamiliar
- with avionics that are unfamiliar
- in airspace that is unfamiliar
- with radio communications and procedures that are unfamiliar
One hour of ground school is maybe barely enough to have you safely fly the traffic pattern at a non-towered airport, let alone have you fly cross country.
If anything I apologize for giving a quote that may very well be too low.
Let's not forget the purpose of this timebuilding; it is meant for you to learn on your own. Safely extend your own horizons and expand on your knowledge and experience.
Not to simply drill holes in the sky and fly to the same airport for 20 hours simply because you don't know (or are not proficient enough) to go anywhere else.
Florida is app. 400 NM long, that is from Key West to Tallahassee.
Lake Okeechobee is 25NM wide and 35 NM long, that's wider then the English Channel. From Marathon to the mainland is 26 NM, wider then the English channel. As a PPL in the US you have access too and the responsibility to know how to operate out of some pretty big airports. Even if it wasn't your original destination but you have to deviate because of weather or other problems.
To have somebody fly throughout Florida without the proficiency and the skills to ask for weather updates and ATC services in an airplane that they don't know is irresponsible.
Sending somebody who's never flown in the US before off in an airplane with the advise of "stay away from the coloured bits on the chart" is criminal.
Either our requirements are too high or their's too low.
Your decision, we have made ours.
In the mean time, if you have any questions, as always feel free to send me an email or PM.
Last edited by B2N2; 14th Apr 2009 at 19:47.
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B2N2 i think you make some very valid points and you make them well.
I think the mentality of get something as cheap as you can has led to some false expectations with regards bfr time.
At the end of the day whatever intsructor signs your logbook as having succesfully completed the BFR they have to be sure you are competent in all areas of operating in the US. Its their neck on the line too 'cos if the renter does something silly or stupid the first point on the paper trail is the last instructor to sign the BFR!
If i was converting onto a new airframe (i think EAA have diamonds) plus a whole new avionics sytem plus local airspace plus different RT and procedures,plus new notams,flightplans etc,plus the weather both inside the cockpit(xm) and outside(Cb'swinds,often mod low level turbulence) then six hours seems fine to me and speaking personally i think i would need every minute of it.
PS i am not part of EAA and have never flown with them and dont know them at all apart from their website in fact!
I think the mentality of get something as cheap as you can has led to some false expectations with regards bfr time.
At the end of the day whatever intsructor signs your logbook as having succesfully completed the BFR they have to be sure you are competent in all areas of operating in the US. Its their neck on the line too 'cos if the renter does something silly or stupid the first point on the paper trail is the last instructor to sign the BFR!
If i was converting onto a new airframe (i think EAA have diamonds) plus a whole new avionics sytem plus local airspace plus different RT and procedures,plus new notams,flightplans etc,plus the weather both inside the cockpit(xm) and outside(Cb'swinds,often mod low level turbulence) then six hours seems fine to me and speaking personally i think i would need every minute of it.
PS i am not part of EAA and have never flown with them and dont know them at all apart from their website in fact!
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Irishpilot1990
The fact is that it is almost imposable to do anything in the USA without a car so if you don't want to be tied to a "package providor" who will no doubt nickel & dime you out of more than you would like some wheels.
I found Detroit OK just west of Detroit Metro airport is the old airport Willow Run, (local FAA office) that has a few places to fly or my recomendation would be to go a little further west on the I94 to Ann Arbour, a good FBO, not the cheapest but you get what you pay for.
I have no doubt that if you look around the non holiday destinations you will find some good local FBO's who will help you, contact by email and then talk on the phone to see if you like them before parting with money!
I found Detroit OK just west of Detroit Metro airport is the old airport Willow Run, (local FAA office) that has a few places to fly or my recomendation would be to go a little further west on the I94 to Ann Arbour, a good FBO, not the cheapest but you get what you pay for.
I have no doubt that if you look around the non holiday destinations you will find some good local FBO's who will help you, contact by email and then talk on the phone to see if you like them before parting with money!
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I was just browsing the internet to compare those prices listed above and saw that EFT offer 50 hours for $5,500 including 21 days accommodation (which includes shared car) and an airport pickup.
They use C172 for what it's worth and the rental is wet, also when I was in Florida they had a large fleet.
Just surprised no one picked up on it yet!
They use C172 for what it's worth and the rental is wet, also when I was in Florida they had a large fleet.
Just surprised no one picked up on it yet!
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Required reading
If you are inerested in this thread you should read this:-
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...tupid-oft.html
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...tupid-oft.html
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First regarding the EFT offer - does not include flight review, and I love this bit "Price Subject to Change without notice"
50 hours completed with 10 days!
Honestly what kind of constructive flying can you complete within 10 days - at average 5 hours a day? Something that would be NOTHING else then burning holes in the sky!
And are these 50 block hours open for everybody? Or just for CPL students with EFT? Not really clear from their site. Still the breakdown of the price makes it around £4000 + travel/flight review!
Back to EAA, is simply asked the opinion of fellow PPRune'rs what their opinion was of $1900 for flight review!
Add this to any hour build packages, and result is there is NO "Savings" going to the USA anymore.
Be honest, you want to go to the US, to get a new experience, but not solely to enhance your flying skills, not because you want to save money to be able to get more hours for the least amount of money.
Is it wrong that pilots want most hours for the least amount of Pounds/Dollars?
The flight schools want most amount of Pounds/Dollars for their operation, so they can be profitable.
I do not have a problem with this, that is not my point!
However let's be honest, so everybody can make their own judgment and opinion, in the current climate going to the USA for flight traing has more negatives then positives, of course plenty of posters are showing they are getting worried that posts here are being read by potential students/hour builders, who they might loose now, as they are presented with the real facts.
The only advantage Florida has is the sun and girls, which itself is not a bad thing - however the example above from EFT, 50 hours within 10 days, you probably won't see much of either.
As somebody else pointed out earlier, what about the quality of hour building? However the schools set out these rules for 3 reasons, they want as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, they do not care if the flying is beneficial for the pilot, and they will get their money regardless if you complete the 50 hours in the period given by them.
However the flight schools should be carefull now, because I hope more and more people will start using their IQ, and not just their wallet. In these economic times people have to be more carefull anyway.
There is NOTHING to save with regards to money to train in the USA for a JAA CPL/IR/ME - I am not going to present the calculations again, already done that in the past. People can work it out themselves.
There is very little if anything to save with hour building 50 to 100 hours, if more maybe a little.
The experience of flying in the USA will not be very beneficial for UK flying, weather, climate different. And that brings us back to the quality of flying - weather conditions in the UK are much more challenging, I have been flying in Scandinavia and UK, very different countries to fly in, bought have thogught me a lot in each their way.
As mentioned in another post, what good is flying 50 hours in CAVOK, ++ Visibily more then 10Km?
Is that going to make you a better pilot? Make you better to understand weather forecasts, etc.
I believe a US PPL (Florida based) would struggle more coming here to the UK to fly, then a JAR PPL (UK) flying in Florida!
If I or anyone else wants to go to hour build in the US, let's get it straight - it is for a new experience, see something new, and be able to make something constructive of the flights, planning and debriefing. However the schools have modelled the hour building like a "red light district concept" - Quickly in, and get out ASP after you have paid them for their 50 hours.
I can get 50 hours in Norway for $7000, with NO TIME PRESSURE, no flight review, and I have friends I can live at for free, and in well maintained clean aircrafts. (PA 28, C-172) and £50 FR - ticket to Oslo. In the UK similar package will cost a bit more - for both these last alternatives I am able to plan it/schedule all myself - and to make the optimal of each flight for my own benefit.
All others seems to be Rush and Go, not even time for Touch and Go!
All in all the prices here and across the pond at the end of the day will be pretty similar - and please US is a large continent, but how far will you travel in a PA 28 when hour buidling? Or do you want to leave sunny Florida and maybe get grounded for 4 days because of bad weather, and when returned to base your time period has expired and you only managed to fly 30 of those 50 hours you paid for!
Also flying from UK, does not mean you only stay in the UK, the advantage of airplanes is that you can actually fly over that little lake called the english channel to a country called France - from France it is not far to Belgium, Holland or Germany. And if you really have to much money to burn you can go down to Cote D'Azur, Marbella - you are NOT limited to only be flying within the UK airspace. I believe that is more of a challenge experiencing different ATC's in europe then just flying in circles outside the Bermuda triangle!
Does not mean I would not like to go "Over There" and experience a bit myself - but I will rather spend the $1900 flight review money on extra European quality hours - as they probably will be of more use for me at the moment!
Still to all, NAIA went bust, they was very reputable for many years, so I believe many US flight schools are very very afraid now, and good to see so many responses by people with very few posts earlier. Makes me believe more and more that many on these forums have their own protectionist agenda!
Quality - Cheap - Rush - Aviation - are 4 words that does not seem to fith together from what I have read and seen so far.
Schools/instructors want you to gain the greatest possible experience, in the shortest possible time, so they Rush you trough 50 hours in CAVOK + 10km Vis. - within 10 to 14 days, and they believe this will then give you the pilot the greatest benefit and learning experience for your further career with them or as a pilot in general!
If it was dead cheap, maybe you could justify it a little to get some more hours, guess what, it is not low shelf dead cheap - it's just as everywhere else.
Then there are posters on here saying the students are the cheapskates, who just do the easy stuff, why? Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.
And then someone say, oh but the student to save money takes short cuts in their training, vow boomer - that's what it seems to many schools are doing for their own students, I guess they do what they are thought by the school, take short cuts!
50 hours completed with 10 days!
Honestly what kind of constructive flying can you complete within 10 days - at average 5 hours a day? Something that would be NOTHING else then burning holes in the sky!
And are these 50 block hours open for everybody? Or just for CPL students with EFT? Not really clear from their site. Still the breakdown of the price makes it around £4000 + travel/flight review!
Back to EAA, is simply asked the opinion of fellow PPRune'rs what their opinion was of $1900 for flight review!
Add this to any hour build packages, and result is there is NO "Savings" going to the USA anymore.
Be honest, you want to go to the US, to get a new experience, but not solely to enhance your flying skills, not because you want to save money to be able to get more hours for the least amount of money.
Is it wrong that pilots want most hours for the least amount of Pounds/Dollars?
The flight schools want most amount of Pounds/Dollars for their operation, so they can be profitable.
I do not have a problem with this, that is not my point!
However let's be honest, so everybody can make their own judgment and opinion, in the current climate going to the USA for flight traing has more negatives then positives, of course plenty of posters are showing they are getting worried that posts here are being read by potential students/hour builders, who they might loose now, as they are presented with the real facts.
The only advantage Florida has is the sun and girls, which itself is not a bad thing - however the example above from EFT, 50 hours within 10 days, you probably won't see much of either.
As somebody else pointed out earlier, what about the quality of hour building? However the schools set out these rules for 3 reasons, they want as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, they do not care if the flying is beneficial for the pilot, and they will get their money regardless if you complete the 50 hours in the period given by them.
However the flight schools should be carefull now, because I hope more and more people will start using their IQ, and not just their wallet. In these economic times people have to be more carefull anyway.
There is NOTHING to save with regards to money to train in the USA for a JAA CPL/IR/ME - I am not going to present the calculations again, already done that in the past. People can work it out themselves.
There is very little if anything to save with hour building 50 to 100 hours, if more maybe a little.
The experience of flying in the USA will not be very beneficial for UK flying, weather, climate different. And that brings us back to the quality of flying - weather conditions in the UK are much more challenging, I have been flying in Scandinavia and UK, very different countries to fly in, bought have thogught me a lot in each their way.
As mentioned in another post, what good is flying 50 hours in CAVOK, ++ Visibily more then 10Km?
Is that going to make you a better pilot? Make you better to understand weather forecasts, etc.
I believe a US PPL (Florida based) would struggle more coming here to the UK to fly, then a JAR PPL (UK) flying in Florida!
If I or anyone else wants to go to hour build in the US, let's get it straight - it is for a new experience, see something new, and be able to make something constructive of the flights, planning and debriefing. However the schools have modelled the hour building like a "red light district concept" - Quickly in, and get out ASP after you have paid them for their 50 hours.
I can get 50 hours in Norway for $7000, with NO TIME PRESSURE, no flight review, and I have friends I can live at for free, and in well maintained clean aircrafts. (PA 28, C-172) and £50 FR - ticket to Oslo. In the UK similar package will cost a bit more - for both these last alternatives I am able to plan it/schedule all myself - and to make the optimal of each flight for my own benefit.
All others seems to be Rush and Go, not even time for Touch and Go!
All in all the prices here and across the pond at the end of the day will be pretty similar - and please US is a large continent, but how far will you travel in a PA 28 when hour buidling? Or do you want to leave sunny Florida and maybe get grounded for 4 days because of bad weather, and when returned to base your time period has expired and you only managed to fly 30 of those 50 hours you paid for!
Also flying from UK, does not mean you only stay in the UK, the advantage of airplanes is that you can actually fly over that little lake called the english channel to a country called France - from France it is not far to Belgium, Holland or Germany. And if you really have to much money to burn you can go down to Cote D'Azur, Marbella - you are NOT limited to only be flying within the UK airspace. I believe that is more of a challenge experiencing different ATC's in europe then just flying in circles outside the Bermuda triangle!
Does not mean I would not like to go "Over There" and experience a bit myself - but I will rather spend the $1900 flight review money on extra European quality hours - as they probably will be of more use for me at the moment!
Still to all, NAIA went bust, they was very reputable for many years, so I believe many US flight schools are very very afraid now, and good to see so many responses by people with very few posts earlier. Makes me believe more and more that many on these forums have their own protectionist agenda!
Quality - Cheap - Rush - Aviation - are 4 words that does not seem to fith together from what I have read and seen so far.
Schools/instructors want you to gain the greatest possible experience, in the shortest possible time, so they Rush you trough 50 hours in CAVOK + 10km Vis. - within 10 to 14 days, and they believe this will then give you the pilot the greatest benefit and learning experience for your further career with them or as a pilot in general!
If it was dead cheap, maybe you could justify it a little to get some more hours, guess what, it is not low shelf dead cheap - it's just as everywhere else.
Then there are posters on here saying the students are the cheapskates, who just do the easy stuff, why? Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.
And then someone say, oh but the student to save money takes short cuts in their training, vow boomer - that's what it seems to many schools are doing for their own students, I guess they do what they are thought by the school, take short cuts!
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Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.
- If schools were 100% devoted to high quality training they would go out of business! They wouldn't have the through put required to be commercially viable. Harsh but true.
- Including accommodation and that check out/bfr isn't bad at that package price.
- Everywhere you rent an aircraft they require a check out with one of their instructors - name somewhere which doesn't.
- Most people live in the real world (Unlike you) and are under pressure from work, as they can only get a certain amount of time of work and need to complete in a short time period.
- KeyGrip posted the best thread I've ever read on Pprune!
- You should go to Oxford - they seem like a perfect fit for you!
- I did some training in the USA and saved huge amounts of money and time (which is one of the most costly factors) compared to UK. (And for the record I have a UK CPL and UK IR (both first time before you mention anything) from a school in Bournemouth which is alas no more.)
That's my only post I'll make on the issue; I've stated my opinion and won't be drawn in by the magician! No doubt he'll magic up a school from himself and the money to pay for the training at the quality he wants, which will no doubt go bankrupt shortly after his visit.
Stop posting in two places - read the forum rules!
Last edited by BigGrecian; 15th Apr 2009 at 02:16.
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I asked was to confirm a visa was not necessary...
ANOTHER England .v. U.S.A thread :-P
Thread outcome: No visa is required, just the ESTA...also a Bi-annual Flight Review is necessary for everyone.
Thanks all for replies.
can we use the other threads for the other debate
ANOTHER England .v. U.S.A thread :-P
Thread outcome: No visa is required, just the ESTA...also a Bi-annual Flight Review is necessary for everyone.
Thanks all for replies.can we use the other threads for the other debate
