Have I Been Stupid - OFT

[Man_C_Flyer]

Hello

I have spent months looking into schools to get my training started and decided Orlando Flight Training was right for me! I have saved enough money to get through my PPL and get started on my way, but up until yesterday I had NEVER heard of PPRUNE! And considering I have now paid my deposit, I am kicking myself for not searching forums beforehand! I am really worried now and even considering cutting my losses (my deposit). If the PPL went well I was going to consider OFT for my JAA ATPLs if I can get the money together too. Is there anyone at the school or has been to the school can give me some feedback!

The PPL should cost $7760 but apparently not according to so many people.

The accomodation should cost $750 a month but apparently not according to so many people.

Is my PPL really 20 hours Dual and 20 Solo like they say?

The maintenance of the planes seems to be an issue on every thread I have read!

Am I rightly being worried or am I just being over paranoid?

[preduk]

Personally, I wouldn't have went over at this time. Not because of the flight school, but because of the crap currency exchange rates.

$7,760 is about £5,300 at the moment plus your other costs you could have done it for the same price back here.

I can't comment on the aircraft condition etc. don't know enough about it.

[AlphaMale]

I was hell bent on training in the US with EFT possibly on their Multi APP program. They then hit problems with money and that really put me off, exchange rate was almost $2 to the £1 and APP cost of $62k was around £32k.

I looked into EAA who are a very good FAA school (FAA PPL is fine for going on to your ATPL GS), although a little more costly I would be training in a nice location of Florida and be flying state of the art aircraft. Exchange rates dropped to around $1.5 to the £1 and it become pretty much the same cost as training in the UK.

Plan C was to go to South Africa, Algoa is a good school that can offer a PPL for around R70k ~ £3,800 (R18 to the £1 back when I looked into this), unfortunately the weak £GBP means we get less R14 to the £1 in todays rates (£5k+Flight to RSA (£750) for a PPL).

So it has become apparent to me that training in a small Tomahawk at a school offering PPL/IMC/Night as opposed to a big FTO is pretty good value for money. No need to beg for 4/6/8 weeks off work from the employer and I'll be used to the UK airspace right from the off.

Man C Flyer, if you have paid your deposit it might be worth your while going out there and just enjoy the flying. People with negative experiences from these schools will make a song and dance about their experience and many who have never been to the school will only echo these stories. People who go to EFT/OBA/OFT/Naples and have a good experience don't seem to shout quite so loud.

But I have heard plenty of ex-students who enjoyed their time there and said "It does what it says on the tin". So long as you treat it as 4 weeks of training and not a holiday you should get what they advertise.

Good luck.

[civil aviation]

I don't believe you have been stupid but OFT are well-known for it.
My research concluded that OBA were definitely (and actually !) cheapest. Also, they are up-front in using £=$1.50 and 'no fuel surcharges'
In any case, their current website Ormond Beach Aviation - JAA PPL USA UK Flight Training USA, Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, Orlando, naples, FL,Florida specializing in JAA JAR PPL,airplane training,IMC,Night,Multi,FAA,Radio licence, JAA ATPL,professional pilot program gives a price guarantee (if you can find anything comparable cheaper, they'll give you money-off).
The pound weakness has been a problem for USA/SA/EUROzone FTO's but don't believe the stories that you can now do a JAA PPL cheaper in UK.

[irishone]

Hey Man_c

On the ppl number of hours issue, If I remember rightly its a min of 28 hrs total, 5 of which must be solo. Correct me if Im wrong, been a while since I did the FAA (Are you going with part 61?....check FAR/AIM). Obviously you got a contract when you signed the deposit??? It should state you get the 20/20 hrs you were talking about. If so you should be fine. I know when I did my ppl I only had 6 hrs solo.

I went to Vero Beach myself, so cant tell you about accommodation. But I know in FSI the student accommodation on campus was much more expensive that off campus accommodation. So maybe book into the student place for few nights then look else where. 750pm is a lot!

I havent heard of anything (lately) too bad about OFT. I looked into doing FI ratings there. I heard they moved to Merritt Island also, ppl training can be done here. Things that are said on Pprune can be very helpful but also to be taken with a pinch of salt sometimes. If you have the deposit paid, and its a lot, I would continue on. If it's only a small amt of money...have a look at FSI or FIT in Florida. Both fab schools. Don't know what prices they are. If it's just as expensive to do it in Uk I would do it in the Uk. The training is better and tougher.

If you go ahead with OFT dont worry about it. Even if they give you trouble. Your only booked in for your PPL so you'll be out in 6 weeks. Look on it as a learning experience. And your in a great location for it, right in B airspace.

I dont know much about the maintance issues, maybe get in touch with someone who was an ex student there. But with regards to general issues, every school has them. So be prepared for that.

If you go to FL You'll have a ball! Wish I was back flying in Florida Make sure you go to Naples on your crosscountry, fab views and beaches!

Maria

[MajesticMav]

If youre doing the faa ppl expect around 12000 USD. If JAA then itll be lower. Very few people finish an faa ppl in this school with just 45hours. average being aroung 60. Jaa ppl tends to be easier.

[Man_C_Flyer]

I heard the instructors are only there to build up there own hours and squeeze as much as they can from each student! I dont want to be doing a ppl with 60 hours dual and minimum solo!

Will i get booked twice a day?

I am eventually going down the jaa route so hopefully the school will sell itself to me well enough that I decide to use them for further training!

[SilveR5]

Man_C_Flyer

Just an advice..

Since you have already paid the deposit, and heading to OFT, just deal with it more positively!

No matter what you hear or see of hurdles, keep yourself focused on the mission and get back with the PPL. I think that big part of your situation is a matter of high spirit and determination rather than anything else. Believe in yourself regardless of what goes wrong around you over there!

Good luck

[fernytickles]

Man C Flyer,

I don't often come on this part of pprune, but its pouring outside and I can't be bothered to get up yet

Don't panic over your decision. The single most important piece of advice given to anyone when they learn to fly is DO NOT pay a lump sum for your flight training up front - stick with pay as you go. Time & time again this is mentioned on here, and, sadly, time & time again, you hear awful stories of companies running off with peoples' hard earned and hard saved thousands of pounds. I'm not suggesting this is the case with OFT - they have been around for some time, and love'em or hate'em, thats something they have not done.

Other pieces of advice -

Approach this with a positive attitude and an awareness that you are there to work, and work hard, if you seriously want to get that training done. Get your head in the books as soon as you can - right now, it will help you get a head start.

Keep your wits about you when it comes to your accounts, and don't be afraid to question something if its not clear in the billing.

A young, low time instructor is not a negative thing. While they may lack years of experience, they have all the information right at their fingertips and should be in a very good position to pass that information on to you in a manner which is clear and easy to understand. For example, I am trying to teach someone at the moment. I learnt to fly 17 years ago and haven't taught for 15 years. Believe me, its hard trying to explain something to someone in a manner that is clear and concise when you haven't done it in quite a long time.

If you are having a hard time communicating or "clicking" with your instructor, don't be afraid to address this with them whilst on the ground, and possibly ask for a different instructor.

My husband went to OFT about 10+/- years ago. He came home with exactly what he'd gone out to do, in exactly the time he'd given himself. His instructor was fine, and the aeroplane was fine. He worked extremely hard, and acheived his goal. He was surprised at the attitudes of some of the students there - partying all the time, burning up their hard saved pounds and moaning when they didn't acheive their goal. Obviously not everyone does this, but thats what he observed.

Read all the info on OFT that you can find on here, the good, the bad and everything in between. Remember that personal perception is different in every case. Go there well informed, and be thankful pprune has given you that ability. The rest of us came over to the US to learn to fly, pre-pprune, fat, dumb & happy. And most of us survived, pretty much unscathed.

Don't be panicking and losing sleep - your flight training will (should!) be like nothing you've ever experienced before, with some real highs & probably some lows, make the most of it. Take a quick look on here as well, if you want. Brady is grounded at the moment whilst they fix the window in the plane, but should be back flying again once the rain has stopped, hopefully soon.... Earning My Wings: a video blog about learning to fly

Good luck -

[JOEFRIDAY2]

It is so unfair when these schools quote the FAA minimums required to obtain your license.

The bottom line is that is is very rare (If not impossible) to obtain your license with the FAA minimum hours.

It is very common to take 2-3 times the minimum number of hours that the FAA requires.

They don't tell you this. It's like a big secret that they don't want you to know. They just hang out the FAA minimums and you don't find this out until you are DEEP into your training and have paid 2-3 times as much as you had budgeted.

How much was your deposit? How much more do you have to give them when you arrive? You might want to cut your losses here.

[SweetChariotXV]

If youre doing the faa ppl expect around 12000 USD. If JAA then itll be lower. Very few people finish an faa ppl in this school with just 45hours. average being aroung 60. Jaa ppl tends to be easier.

I have to say from my personal experience, I found this to be the complete opposite. The FAA PPL was the easy one - one exam which, if you studied the gleim red book i think it was called, you could easily pass this. 1 flight test which also was pretty basic. Then the JAA was 7 ground exams with far more volume than the faa one, and a flight test which again, had a lot more too it than the faa flight test.

But man c flyer, my advise would be to weigh it all up in price terms; how much in all will it cost you to do your ppl in the states at a realistic exchange for your pound. ie you will get right now about $1.38 to the pound today. Include hotel acc, airfare, taxi's / rental car, food whilst out there. Calculate it all. Then ring around a couple of schools in your local area, find out cost of ppl. balance it out.

If price is far cheaper in uk, including loss of deposit, stay here. If about the same, decide what is best for you. At ppl level, it is not of huge importance where you do it. If you do it at OFT, i'm sure you will enjoy it - even if the place is not good, I enjoyed flying florida. I would say if you want to go further though, you will get more out of your flying in the UK. It is more of a challenge than Florida, so I think it will benefit you.

Good luck.

1404457

[Keygrip]

Joefriday - you are, of course, 100% correct in your comment that it's unfair for the schools to price based on minimum - but "you" (the student populous) have generated this yourselves, as the VAST majority of you are only concerned with promised price and time to complete.

You (the student populous) have zero interest in quality - you may say so in your posts, but you always default to the quickest/cheapest in the end.

The schools have to compete with each other for your business, so they all have to advertise in the same way. It is, of course, very possible to complete in the time - it used to be 35 hours if you completed in less than six months, and people made it easily. Attending a residential course and going over 45 hours really does highlight some problem - with either the school or the student.

You (the student populous) all assume that you WILL finish in minimum hours, will finish by a given date (and already have your cheapest cost, non adjustable return flight tickets booked for the day after). Most of you have your next course booked to start three days after that.

If a school TELLS you that you will go over on the hours, then you post on here saying that they are ripping you off.

Same as "hour building" - to the pilots, it's a hurdle that has to be overcome and some/many of you will (rather stupidly) fly an extra 100 hours of worthless local trips down the coast (or well known routes, to well known airfields, to meet your buddies that have just flown in loose formation with you) immediately after gaining the PPL, and before the ATPL groundschool.....and even that groundschool you choose based on the best question bank to learn so you can tick boxes in the exams, rather than LEARNING the material.

It's done that way because it's viewed as cheapest, quickest, most fun. It's of zero value other than entries in a log book.

It's supposed to be "experience building", and should involve increasingly tasking your self to ever tightening limits - so that, by the time, you turn up for the CPL course, it's a 'walk in the park'.

I've often thought of offering a service of riding with you during your experience building (whioch you log as P1, of course) and progressing from an advisory passenger to "beating the out of you" towards the end.

30 hours maybe, of your 100, at...say $50 an hour....but I bet none of you would consider paying the extra $1,500 in order to "get it right".

You are only interested in advertised price and advertised time - hence your post (come to think of it).

[tigermagicjohn]

"Keygrip" - Disgrace what you say regarding students!
Let's turn this the other way, maybe more flight schools should be honest with their assessment of potential students and tell them they are not suited for a career within aviaiton, how many flight schools give their honest opinion straight out?

Or are they to worried they might loose another "bean bag" client, who will waste their money on training they either do not complete or does not have the potenial to succed in.

It must be a major worry for US flight schools, (worldwide flight schools) - that the current economic climate is drying up the suckers with to much money to waste! I would like more schools being honest and fair, however I guess it is supply and demand that rules.

At the moment students are in demand to be able to save FTO's, so they will take anyone regardless of suitability / ability!

Reading OFT's site, they say themselves they have not based on min. hours, but on a sensible program which is realistic, so who is creating this situation? The student?
Personally I predict several US flight schools going the same way as NAIA, and that's out of business, or at least strongly reduced business. Why? Credit crunch, US route is no longer the economical way to complete a JAR CPL/IR - bad exchange rates, and the loss of J1 visa.

It is a BS, that there are INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS OF NAIA, which have lost their money - because they trusted a so called "BIG" and reputable school!

When people say things like you say, it makes me furious, remember the customer expects, but what can they expect if they have pre payed, and are in shackles over all what happens to their money! PAY MORE, or NO LICENSE - that's the policy of many FTO's - tempt the students with unrealistic programs, because WHAT WILL THEY DO WHEN THEY STILL NEED ANOTHER 10 - 30 hours? Loose it all, or become another CREDIT CRUNCH victim!

[Keygrip]

tmj - rather than turn it around - give me a levelled argument for what you believe is wrong.

I've been seeing the same thing, with the same students, at the same various schools, for many years.

Tell me where I have said something wrong.

I also completely agree with most of what you say too, especially the "Do as I say or I'll cancel your visa", "Problems of pre-payment" etc.....though WHY any student prepays for any flying is beyond me - especially in this climate.

I do, to some extent, understand the school situation - as I've witnessed many students trying to rip off the schools by not paying for something they have done.....but I see no reason why I shouldn't expect to start a flight with a zero balance and settle my account on landing.

Now how are you (as a flight school) going to handle that situation when the clients credit card is refused? You don't get your money - but the student has flown your aircraft, burnt your fuel, borrowed your instructor etc. etc.

It's a vicious circle.

When I rent aircraft for my own flying, my account starts at zero, they take my credit card number before departure, and I settle on landing - but, as I say, what do you do in the above situation?

I detest the situation of students paying into an account that the school can 'zap' at random when it feels the need or want - and pre-charges for flight tests, months worth of accommodation, mandatory headset purchase....all sorts of stuff that clears a positive balance to zero (or negative) within minutes. How does - and why *should* - the student (have to) deal with a situation like that? I dunno - as I say, vicious circle.

Anyway, my original question - tell me where I was wrong in what I said. Don't "turn it round" to view the other way. Give me reasoned argument.

[tigermagicjohn]

The student not paying after landing - would cost the school few hundred dollars at most!

Schools can cost the student $30.000 - $70.000!

Balance the equation, and see who has the strongest odds!

The temptation of a reduction of course fee of $1000 - $5000 is temptation enough for some students to pay up front! Also to get your visa, you need to show you have the money available, and until you have parted with your cash all is always like gold!

I have my own business, and have seen plenty of ways people adopt Machavellist approach to their dealings!
And at the moment with current crisis in the USA, I would not take their words worth for anything.

Having just been told in another post that a flight review JAR to FAA PPL would cost $200, and one of the schools I contacted quoted me $1900 - it shows - trust no one with your money!

With the flight schools, the odds are overwelmingly against the students, they get NO guarantees that the flight school will be HONEST, TRUTHFULL and do their job in the best possible way.

Having spent much time in Miami, personal and business, and having worked all over the world it takes a lot to impress me, I do not believe what people tell me, because I have learnt from life - it's not worth a thing. However the US lifestyle is very aggressive when it comes to marketing, and younger prospects can be manipulated by the spin of the US flight school marketing strategy!

However younger "idealistic" wannabes, can much more easly be impressed and pressured into accepting conditions and terms they will be unable to fullfill - this gives us life experience, and most of us learn from this. But when you invest as much people do in this career, it is no longer a game where you are left in ruins the day the flight school is closed down - or you have to choose to get another $5000 - $10.000, or return home with NOTHING - and wasted + $30.000!

And guess what, the one who does not loose, is the flight school!

The odds are heavily stacked against the wannabe!
So defending a flight school is rich, as they do not care what happens to you and your life when there is no more money for you to pay them. Or if they go bust, the director probably takes his yacht to Bahamas, while the students loose all their money, like with NAIA.

Trust NO ONE with YOUR MONEY!

It's like going to the Casino, the odds are against you!

[9287Excellent]

Hey Man C Flyer,

If you've already paid your deposit, don't worry about, go and try and enjoy your time there. Be prepared to talk back to the management team thou, don't let them blame any problems you have (if you have any problems) on you for not telling them about any problems (if that makes any sense at all, haha!!)

The maintainence of the aircraft isn't good, but what are you flying out there? Cessna's or Pipers?? If you fly the Piper's, try to get in the Warriors not the Cadets, the warriors are newer and so they 'try' to look after them and they are maintained slightly bettter than the Cadets. If you are flying Cessna's, the 152's are in appaling condition, but the 172's aren't too bad as these are used for the IR training a lot of the time, which brings them in big money, so they try to keep these airworthy too!!

Like you say, if only you'd heard of this forum sooner, but as you've paid your deposit, go and try to enjoy it. It may take longer than the 45hours, depending on which instructor you get. Some of them do like to make you fly longer so they can build up there hours too, not all of them thou. When I went out there, I already had some flying experience, but they did make me start almost from the beginning because I didn't have any proof, other than what was in my log book, that I had done these hours, and even then it took longer than the 45 they state before I got my check-ride and PPL. As has been mentioned in another thread, keep an eye out for any miscellaneous charges appearing on your account, as there quite good at doing this and then not remembering what it was when you question it, so you end up paying for it anyway! If I was you, as long as you haven't paid them too much up front, only put 1 or $2000 in your account and just re-fill it as you go then you don't loose all of your money and they don't run your account down with charges, etc. Plus, it gives them an incentive to be nicer to you to make sure you continue to spend your money with them, lol!!

Sorry for the long post, just a few things i thort of, that might help you out. Have a good time anyway!!

[Neon Circuits]

Man C Flyer,

I went to OFT a couple of years back, generally ok apart from some paperwork that the instructor didn't complete correctly and I had serious issues with the CFI over it - it never was resolved and I had to get the CAA involved. He was a nasty piece of work.

My advice is make sure all the paperwork is in order prior to leaving !

NC

[Andy_R]

Originally Posted by Keygrip

30 hours maybe, of your 100, at...say $50 an hour....but I bet none of you would consider paying the extra $1,500 in order to "get it right".

Though that $1500 would be far cheaper than turning up unprepared for your CPL course because all you have done is bimble up and down the coastline rather than push yourself hard all the way through your hour building.

Nice idea Keygrip, but like you say, take up would undoubtedly be low.

[selfin]

Originally Posted by keygrip

You (the student populous) have zero interest in quality - you may say so in your posts, but you always default to the quickest/cheapest in the end.

Precisely.

[KandiFloss]

Man C Flyer.

I gained my JAA PPL at OFT in Sept 2006. I clearly remember their advert in the back of Pilot magazine. At that point they advertised their '3 week' PPL for £3195 based on the exchange rates at the time. In total it cost me $12,000 (PPL + Acc), which was approx £6038. So just bear that in mind! If i'd had my time again I would have done my PPL here.

When I was there 'J-P' (John Pierre?) was in charge. All i'm going to say about him (on here) is that he threatened to cancel my M-1 visa if I went elsewhere after a dispute ... so I will let you read into that whatever you want. Not a good advert for a 'Cabair' approved school. In hindsight I should have reported him really. At that point Andrew Mclaird was a CFI and he was the only person (high up) who helped when I had a problem.

With regard to their aircraft I guess they were the usual flying school work-horses. I remember flying one of their C-152's once (before my first solo) and shortly after take-off we had smoke coming from behind the flight-instrument panel. This was un-nerving to say the least.

If you read the other thread about 'OFT-joke' on this Professional Forum it is true that they fine you if you leave things in the aircraft. I never got fined as I never left anything in the aircraft ... but just be aware!

If I was you I would pay the extra to fly the PA-28 rather than the C-152, but then i'm biased.

It took me around 5 weeks to gain my PPL (60 hours total time/10 hours solo), and that was flying twice a day, but I gave myself one day a week off for a break and there was the odd slot that was cancel due to the weather. As far as I can remember only one other girl and a South African guy passed their skills test in the time that I was there. I would advise that you try to get as many exams out of the way before you go.

As for the accomodation ... it's basic but you're not going there for a holiday ! Oh yes, make sure that you take ant killer and cockroach killer for the kitchen unless you want to share your breakfast .

If you want anymore info PM me.

PC