How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair?
You can do the modular route in just the same timespan as the modular so lets not believe the fallacy that Integrated is quicker.
However, with Modular you do have the ability to pause your training. Stagger it with work and family commitments. It is also possible to make a judgement about the employment cycle and control your entry to it. It is also relatively simple and easy to change training provider should you find either their brochure or their attitude to not be to your liking.
Integrated lacks these advantages.
Over the years have found that the Integrated route makes more sense in the boom times and Modular in the Bust times.
Coming back to the thread topic. A lot, possibly most, of the big cheque writing that has funded people spending up to £100k on flying training has come from mortgage equity withdrawal. Either their own mortgage equity or their parents was used in conjunction with unsecured debt.
MEW in the first quarter of 2007 stood at £13.9billion and in the first quarter 2008 it was £5billion. The disappearance of this funding may or may not have an effect on the ability of Wannabes to fund training. It'll be interesting to find out.
Could be that if you can afford the whole thing there will less competition as others can't.
Could be that airlines cannot find enough people able to to a SSTR and thus take over the burden again like they always used to.
Interesting times.
WWW
However, with Modular you do have the ability to pause your training. Stagger it with work and family commitments. It is also possible to make a judgement about the employment cycle and control your entry to it. It is also relatively simple and easy to change training provider should you find either their brochure or their attitude to not be to your liking.
Integrated lacks these advantages.
Over the years have found that the Integrated route makes more sense in the boom times and Modular in the Bust times.
Coming back to the thread topic. A lot, possibly most, of the big cheque writing that has funded people spending up to £100k on flying training has come from mortgage equity withdrawal. Either their own mortgage equity or their parents was used in conjunction with unsecured debt.
MEW in the first quarter of 2007 stood at £13.9billion and in the first quarter 2008 it was £5billion. The disappearance of this funding may or may not have an effect on the ability of Wannabes to fund training. It'll be interesting to find out.
Could be that if you can afford the whole thing there will less competition as others can't.
Could be that airlines cannot find enough people able to to a SSTR and thus take over the burden again like they always used to.
Interesting times.
WWW
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Daria,
interesting you removed your age from the info about you.
So others don't see you're 17. Nothing wrong with being young, but as I stated in the past, you tend to have simplistic or bit misinformed views in other threads.
You could see things differently in mid-20s or 30s, more life experience.
More years of being independent, work away from parents' house etc.
As for
, hmm. So someone finishing intergrated is pilot, therefore not ANYMORE daft wannabe.
We all have/had dreams of flying and flying for living. I don't think calling someone daft on the grounds of their preferences and available opportunities is suitable.
So your parents would remortgage house and give you easy 80k? Nice. I'd go for it. If it's not loan secured against parents property, it's safer.
You want to prove something? You'd pay for everything yourself?
Have you paid for your flying up until now thanks to your own work?
There will be times when you realise that going 'the easy way' (meant as for flight training itself??) of integrated with all money readied by parents/remortgage can actually pay off. Cost of flight training (modular, so it is, ie more 'base' prices) won't go lower.
Surely, it's good to go to Uni, you're at the age about to decide.
You think you'd get all the dosh required for modular over next few years only from your savings alongside studies? Not sure what your hourly wage would be in your part time job, but mine isn't all that great. OK tips in waiting help.
True, I may need more expensive, rotary training etc, but I do follow and research FW flying as well for my future.
You know, most of 'pilots in the making' would jump at the opportunities you say you have. But reality is it ain't that easy. Some (few or many) years of savings are necessity for most, hence modular.
If you used that stash of money for CPL/ME IR, did some instructing, turboprop, whatever, you wouldn't be in position like some integrated guys who are coming to terms with loan repayment and no flying/well paid/ job - not wanting instructing job etc.
Some would rather not prove their dedication over 4-7 years of part time modular training if they had access to pot of $$. For someone in emigree family settled in the UK you have good opportunities from what you state.
As for SSTR:
I've just read here or elsewhere on net that CSA would take steps towards not sponsoring TR for recruits as there's more and more SSTRed pilots. That leaves lots of space for 'legionnaire' pilots from Western Europe and thus making it super extra harder for local fresh CPLs competing for few occasional vacancies. There's very few CPL openings outside CSA in Czech.
The amount of folks doing SSTR is damaging industry. Unfortunately, it is 'dog eat dog' but is becoming 'hound scoffs poodle'.
interesting you removed your age from the info about you.
So others don't see you're 17. Nothing wrong with being young, but as I stated in the past, you tend to have simplistic or bit misinformed views in other threads.
You could see things differently in mid-20s or 30s, more life experience.
More years of being independent, work away from parents' house etc.
As for
Im not slagging pilots off, I'm mainly talking about daft wannabe's
We all have/had dreams of flying and flying for living. I don't think calling someone daft on the grounds of their preferences and available opportunities is suitable.
So your parents would remortgage house and give you easy 80k? Nice. I'd go for it. If it's not loan secured against parents property, it's safer.
You want to prove something? You'd pay for everything yourself?
Have you paid for your flying up until now thanks to your own work?
There will be times when you realise that going 'the easy way' (meant as for flight training itself??) of integrated with all money readied by parents/remortgage can actually pay off. Cost of flight training (modular, so it is, ie more 'base' prices) won't go lower.
Surely, it's good to go to Uni, you're at the age about to decide.
You think you'd get all the dosh required for modular over next few years only from your savings alongside studies? Not sure what your hourly wage would be in your part time job, but mine isn't all that great. OK tips in waiting help.
True, I may need more expensive, rotary training etc, but I do follow and research FW flying as well for my future.
You know, most of 'pilots in the making' would jump at the opportunities you say you have. But reality is it ain't that easy. Some (few or many) years of savings are necessity for most, hence modular.
If you used that stash of money for CPL/ME IR, did some instructing, turboprop, whatever, you wouldn't be in position like some integrated guys who are coming to terms with loan repayment and no flying/well paid/ job - not wanting instructing job etc.
Some would rather not prove their dedication over 4-7 years of part time modular training if they had access to pot of $$. For someone in emigree family settled in the UK you have good opportunities from what you state.
As for SSTR:
I've just read here or elsewhere on net that CSA would take steps towards not sponsoring TR for recruits as there's more and more SSTRed pilots. That leaves lots of space for 'legionnaire' pilots from Western Europe and thus making it super extra harder for local fresh CPLs competing for few occasional vacancies. There's very few CPL openings outside CSA in Czech.
The amount of folks doing SSTR is damaging industry. Unfortunately, it is 'dog eat dog' but is becoming 'hound scoffs poodle'.
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Integrated/modular with 200 hrs? Doesn't matter which way you went, you'll still be so far behind the aeroplane that it's irrelevant how you trained. Get over it.
There is not a single wannabe out there who can assess which method is better, for the simple reason that you do either one or the other, not both. Therefore you have not the knowledge of any alternative to make a comparison.
Only those you fly with can make a (rough) comparison in terms of the finished product and I see no difference.
What you can compare is costs, as WWW does and he makes, in my view, an excellent analysis.
MartinCH, you're right there, SSTR is screwing this profession.
There is not a single wannabe out there who can assess which method is better, for the simple reason that you do either one or the other, not both. Therefore you have not the knowledge of any alternative to make a comparison.
Only those you fly with can make a (rough) comparison in terms of the finished product and I see no difference.
What you can compare is costs, as WWW does and he makes, in my view, an excellent analysis.
MartinCH, you're right there, SSTR is screwing this profession.
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It's all tit for tat!! And it really bugs me.
As has already been stated, do your own thing, get on with it and focus on getting what 'YOU' really want!! (don't get too involved in other peoples business).
Each to their own, we are all humans, we are all different.. All this Modular vs. Intergrated is like a bloody war.. I know there are pros and cons with both path's, but some of the post's I have to read and laugh at, very childish for aspiring professional pilots!
Do what make's you happy and persevere, study hard and you will get there eventually! Whether it be flying 'A cargo plane full of rubber dog**** outta hong kong', Air taxi work, flying turboprops, jets, whatever it is! You have to start at the bottom and work your way to the top, and if you get a jet job straight away, then well done and appreciate/enjoy it!
I can't understand people though who turn down any flying job they get offered as it's a start (regardless of money etc, if it's not great, then so what, it's better than no job, surely? Wouldn't you rather be flying, I know what my answer is).
Some people I think definately need to look at the bigger picture.
A couple more points here:
One of my old instructors is a Training Capt for BA...earns a six figure salary each year! He started as an air taxi pilot, did so much other flying stuff too before he started flying jet's.
Another friend whose parent's could have quite easily wrote a cheque out for however much he needed for the training and a type rating told him if he wanted to do it, he would do it and fund it without their financial assistance! He done it, got a loan through HSBC, went to NZ with CTC, he is now a Senior F/O with EJ.
Good luck to everyone on the long hard road to becoming a commercial pilot.
Lee
As has already been stated, do your own thing, get on with it and focus on getting what 'YOU' really want!! (don't get too involved in other peoples business).
Each to their own, we are all humans, we are all different.. All this Modular vs. Intergrated is like a bloody war.. I know there are pros and cons with both path's, but some of the post's I have to read and laugh at, very childish for aspiring professional pilots!
Do what make's you happy and persevere, study hard and you will get there eventually! Whether it be flying 'A cargo plane full of rubber dog**** outta hong kong', Air taxi work, flying turboprops, jets, whatever it is! You have to start at the bottom and work your way to the top, and if you get a jet job straight away, then well done and appreciate/enjoy it!
I can't understand people though who turn down any flying job they get offered as it's a start (regardless of money etc, if it's not great, then so what, it's better than no job, surely? Wouldn't you rather be flying, I know what my answer is).
Some people I think definately need to look at the bigger picture.
A couple more points here:
One of my old instructors is a Training Capt for BA...earns a six figure salary each year! He started as an air taxi pilot, did so much other flying stuff too before he started flying jet's.
Another friend whose parent's could have quite easily wrote a cheque out for however much he needed for the training and a type rating told him if he wanted to do it, he would do it and fund it without their financial assistance! He done it, got a loan through HSBC, went to NZ with CTC, he is now a Senior F/O with EJ.
Good luck to everyone on the long hard road to becoming a commercial pilot.
Lee
everyone has it tough at some point, some choose to make a big deal of it and other just get on and keep their eye on the goal. Im the first!!
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How do they fund SSTR's
The answer in this climate is with difficulty, however if you present a good plan to some bank managers they can still help you raise that cash, usually over a 5 to 7 year payback period.
A RYR cadet I know approached this bank manager after a meeting with a financial advisor and got the loan within 2 working weeks.
He then passed the information on to another cadet who also received the loan, and this was in the current economic climate.
If you already have a bank account which is well run (Not too often into the overdraft) then try you accounts manager at your bank first.
The other route has been the Bank of Mum and Dad, where most families have added the loan to the current mortgage, this is an option but some lenders are cutting back on this added expenditure.
Rich parents who already have the cash are few and far between, but they are out there.
Both the cadets I just mentioned are finished with their training and are flying on full Brookfields contracts, both with the bases they had as first choice.
The doom gloom merchants on here (You know who you are !! ) will have you believe that SSTR's and airlines like Ryanair lower the working conditions for the whole industry, this is a load of "Tosh" as it is in effect a form of self selection.
You have the motivation, are prepared to take the financial risk, have passed selection and have the money available. All of these are required before you get to that SSTR course.
People still fail the course, and that's a big expense, but put in the hard work and dedication and that jet job dream is just around the corner.
Most who "Bleet" that SSTR's are wrong are quite often the ones who are unable to raise the funds or have failed selection.
They believe that if the playing field was level they should have that jet job at no cost to themselves. (Why ? what makes you any different from the rest ?)
There is no such thing as a free type rating, you will end up paying for it somewhere, airlines are not charities, check ppjn for cadet salaries against full F/O rates of pay look at how much difference there is, so indirectly you are paying.
I was lucky in that when I started the type ratings were offered by the employer, however I have paid to get a rating and secure a job in the past.
SSTR's are like the 3rd world, they will always be with us.
The answer in this climate is with difficulty, however if you present a good plan to some bank managers they can still help you raise that cash, usually over a 5 to 7 year payback period.
A RYR cadet I know approached this bank manager after a meeting with a financial advisor and got the loan within 2 working weeks.
He then passed the information on to another cadet who also received the loan, and this was in the current economic climate.
If you already have a bank account which is well run (Not too often into the overdraft) then try you accounts manager at your bank first.
The other route has been the Bank of Mum and Dad, where most families have added the loan to the current mortgage, this is an option but some lenders are cutting back on this added expenditure.
Rich parents who already have the cash are few and far between, but they are out there.
Both the cadets I just mentioned are finished with their training and are flying on full Brookfields contracts, both with the bases they had as first choice.
The doom gloom merchants on here (You know who you are !! ) will have you believe that SSTR's and airlines like Ryanair lower the working conditions for the whole industry, this is a load of "Tosh" as it is in effect a form of self selection.
You have the motivation, are prepared to take the financial risk, have passed selection and have the money available. All of these are required before you get to that SSTR course.
People still fail the course, and that's a big expense, but put in the hard work and dedication and that jet job dream is just around the corner.
Most who "Bleet" that SSTR's are wrong are quite often the ones who are unable to raise the funds or have failed selection.
They believe that if the playing field was level they should have that jet job at no cost to themselves. (Why ? what makes you any different from the rest ?)
There is no such thing as a free type rating, you will end up paying for it somewhere, airlines are not charities, check ppjn for cadet salaries against full F/O rates of pay look at how much difference there is, so indirectly you are paying.
I was lucky in that when I started the type ratings were offered by the employer, however I have paid to get a rating and secure a job in the past.
SSTR's are like the 3rd world, they will always be with us.
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Doesn't a "Full" Brookfield contract allow O' Leary to just stand you down with no flying for months on end? Given the low basic and high flying pay your wage packet shrinks by more than half. Not nice when you have a nice big juicy unsecured loan to keep serviced.
SSTR is a symptom of the credit and housing bubble. The crunch is the cure.
(Though I paid for most of my training through re-mortgaging me house)
SSTR is a symptom of the credit and housing bubble. The crunch is the cure.
(Though I paid for most of my training through re-mortgaging me house)
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night fr8,
Sorry, but totally disagree. The truth is if no rookie was prepared to do SSTR companies would eventually have to pay for it again and that's why people doing it ruin the market and our reputation. And let's face it, if you bring the cash and somewhat motivation you will end up flying a jet. All you need is money, as sad as it is. As conerted_lurker quite rightly put it, by outsourcing its FOs, FR can easily lay people off whenever needed. Admittedly, this is a smart move by O'Leary but at the total expense of his newly hired FOs. Not right and that's why I have a total lack of respect for people doing SSTR and supporting this unrightful practice.
You are also being misguided in saying that there are no companies paying for the TR because they still are out there, e.g. Cityjet, FlyBe to name just a couple. I am sure there also a few GA operators paying at least the better portion of a TR.
I just wonder where this leads to, particularly when it comes to safety?! Because, and let's be honest, as a company, if you knew you as the company would have to pay for a TR would you not look at the applicant very very closely because you would want to invest into the right person? And what would you do, as a company, if you did not have to pay for the TR because the applicant pays for it himself/herself? Exactly, you would not care as much. Because at the end of the day, it's the captain who has the total responsibility over the AC, not the co. I stand to be corrected if this is total bull what I am writing here but I think I am not far off the truth.
Sorry, but totally disagree. The truth is if no rookie was prepared to do SSTR companies would eventually have to pay for it again and that's why people doing it ruin the market and our reputation. And let's face it, if you bring the cash and somewhat motivation you will end up flying a jet. All you need is money, as sad as it is. As conerted_lurker quite rightly put it, by outsourcing its FOs, FR can easily lay people off whenever needed. Admittedly, this is a smart move by O'Leary but at the total expense of his newly hired FOs. Not right and that's why I have a total lack of respect for people doing SSTR and supporting this unrightful practice.
You are also being misguided in saying that there are no companies paying for the TR because they still are out there, e.g. Cityjet, FlyBe to name just a couple. I am sure there also a few GA operators paying at least the better portion of a TR.
I just wonder where this leads to, particularly when it comes to safety?! Because, and let's be honest, as a company, if you knew you as the company would have to pay for a TR would you not look at the applicant very very closely because you would want to invest into the right person? And what would you do, as a company, if you did not have to pay for the TR because the applicant pays for it himself/herself? Exactly, you would not care as much. Because at the end of the day, it's the captain who has the total responsibility over the AC, not the co. I stand to be corrected if this is total bull what I am writing here but I think I am not far off the truth.
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stefair
Sorry but you are wrong in two major respects.
1. If people stop paying for type ratings.
There will always be enough new pilots out there willing to pay for that jet
rating so as to get their foot on that ladder.
People can say they support free ratings and will not apply but I am sorry
to say that in reality they will pay to get that coveted position, and say
c..p to the principles of others, its the real world out there not cloud
cuckoo land.
2. Airlines are run by accountants and the bottom line rules, so if they can
and do cut back salaries for cadet pilots, they are taking much less of a
risk financially.
Those with previous jet / turboprop experience are less of a risk to
employers so the next type rating may well be nearly free.
I have been in this career now over many years and know the way the industry is going.
The bottom line rules, and as long as the cadet pilot is shown to be willing to pay for their rating, the accountants will actively encourage recruiters to take that route,
Take Silverjet who advertised for type rated second officers prior to their demise, this was an indication that they wanted pilots to pay their own rating.
I will state again pilots end up paying for their own ratings under the guise or lower initial salaries when recruited at the cadet stage.
Its easy to justify the cost to the board that way.
Sorry but you are wrong in two major respects.
1. If people stop paying for type ratings.
There will always be enough new pilots out there willing to pay for that jet
rating so as to get their foot on that ladder.
People can say they support free ratings and will not apply but I am sorry
to say that in reality they will pay to get that coveted position, and say
c..p to the principles of others, its the real world out there not cloud
cuckoo land.
2. Airlines are run by accountants and the bottom line rules, so if they can
and do cut back salaries for cadet pilots, they are taking much less of a
risk financially.
Those with previous jet / turboprop experience are less of a risk to
employers so the next type rating may well be nearly free.
I have been in this career now over many years and know the way the industry is going.
The bottom line rules, and as long as the cadet pilot is shown to be willing to pay for their rating, the accountants will actively encourage recruiters to take that route,
Take Silverjet who advertised for type rated second officers prior to their demise, this was an indication that they wanted pilots to pay their own rating.
I will state again pilots end up paying for their own ratings under the guise or lower initial salaries when recruited at the cadet stage.
Its easy to justify the cost to the board that way.
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night fr8,
You seem to forget the fact what people moan about is SSTR paid for and done right after CPL/ME IR. Without any job secured. As a "standard prerequisite".
I and surely many others don't find anything rotten about lower salary for couple years (on bond) to indirectly pay for the TR. That way it can also be pre-tax, right? That's how it should be. Not purely free type rating..
Nobody says the playing field would ever be equal.
As if it's not hard enough for most to get enough funding for CPL/fATPL.
This plague of too many folks firing out CVs with SSTR does place quality dedicated fresh CPL to background. Or this UK/Irish wave of SSTR guys possibly threatening smaller aviation markets (where some only ever achieve dreams thanks to towing gliders)
Ghost Rider,
Well, that guy with rich daddies didn't want their cash. How honourable.
I bet he'd keep such high morals and ideals if he wouldn't have been allowed to join CTC scheme and thus securing hefty loan thanks to it. Or no reasonable loan given his circumstances.
I bet he'd happily work away saving all by himself for his own dreams for couple/many years (depending on his income etc). He'd be happy doing modular slowly and after a year or so happy that he didn't go modular when he could have been flying jets or big TPs already (in those days job climate) and rather work extra late shift/giving up holidays and waiting for his usual Cessna treatment on weekend.
OH YEAH.
ALL WE CAN DO IS TO WATCH ENOUGH SSTR GUYS CRASH AND BURN WITH HEFTY LOANS, NOT MANY EASY A320/B737 JOBS FOR THEM NOW. And let the rest take it as warning. PPRuNe with shiny success stories of the minority may not be enough even then. How many of us alway heeded parents warnings and suggestions (not always best but meant with best intent)? That'll stay similar.
You seem to forget the fact what people moan about is SSTR paid for and done right after CPL/ME IR. Without any job secured. As a "standard prerequisite".
I and surely many others don't find anything rotten about lower salary for couple years (on bond) to indirectly pay for the TR. That way it can also be pre-tax, right? That's how it should be. Not purely free type rating..
Nobody says the playing field would ever be equal.
As if it's not hard enough for most to get enough funding for CPL/fATPL.
This plague of too many folks firing out CVs with SSTR does place quality dedicated fresh CPL to background. Or this UK/Irish wave of SSTR guys possibly threatening smaller aviation markets (where some only ever achieve dreams thanks to towing gliders)
Ghost Rider,
Well, that guy with rich daddies didn't want their cash. How honourable.
I bet he'd keep such high morals and ideals if he wouldn't have been allowed to join CTC scheme and thus securing hefty loan thanks to it. Or no reasonable loan given his circumstances.
I bet he'd happily work away saving all by himself for his own dreams for couple/many years (depending on his income etc). He'd be happy doing modular slowly and after a year or so happy that he didn't go modular when he could have been flying jets or big TPs already (in those days job climate) and rather work extra late shift/giving up holidays and waiting for his usual Cessna treatment on weekend.
OH YEAH.
ALL WE CAN DO IS TO WATCH ENOUGH SSTR GUYS CRASH AND BURN WITH HEFTY LOANS, NOT MANY EASY A320/B737 JOBS FOR THEM NOW. And let the rest take it as warning. PPRuNe with shiny success stories of the minority may not be enough even then. How many of us alway heeded parents warnings and suggestions (not always best but meant with best intent)? That'll stay similar.
