Jerez V Oxford: Again!
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80k divided by 7 years = £11500 per year which equates to £950 per month. Thats before you've added interest and before you've included your TR!! I therefore propose the actual figure nearer to £1500 per month!
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No probs,
Just like to add - that I wouldn't be ashamed spending alot of money - if you think that is the best route, may be it is - go with what you think is best.
Sometimes, you do get what you've paid for and that can mean spending a bit more to get a better product.
Personally, I'm taking the modular route and plan to go thorugh Stapleford after my course with Bristol Ground School. I got my PPL in New Zealand, doing my hours building there and in florida, coincidentally at the airport where the hijackers of 9/11 trained! This route is from my current perspective the best route for me. However, if things had been different I may have gone down a different route. A while back I checked out the oxford and cabair integrated course open days etc and was dead keen and almost set and then my father was killed in an accident so I had to rethink everything especially financially.
Saying that I personally believe that this route I'm taking is far better for me and I'm pleased I've fallen upon these schools.
Good Luck
Just like to add - that I wouldn't be ashamed spending alot of money - if you think that is the best route, may be it is - go with what you think is best.
Sometimes, you do get what you've paid for and that can mean spending a bit more to get a better product.
Personally, I'm taking the modular route and plan to go thorugh Stapleford after my course with Bristol Ground School. I got my PPL in New Zealand, doing my hours building there and in florida, coincidentally at the airport where the hijackers of 9/11 trained! This route is from my current perspective the best route for me. However, if things had been different I may have gone down a different route. A while back I checked out the oxford and cabair integrated course open days etc and was dead keen and almost set and then my father was killed in an accident so I had to rethink everything especially financially.
Saying that I personally believe that this route I'm taking is far better for me and I'm pleased I've fallen upon these schools.
Good Luck
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yeah 80k over 7 years give or take. from what i have found out, pilots are on a sliding scale of pay. therefore the loan repayments that i make during my first year of employment wil certainly not be the same level of pay that i am on after 7 years - if i am still on the same salary, i would suggest that i should have looked for another profession, don't you agree?! in my opinion, during those seven years the salary should increase enough (and certainly from talking to pilots who have been through the process and are still going through the process of paying their loans etc back, this is the impression that i have been given) to clear my debts and maintain a decent, if not excessive, lifestyle.
i say 25k tr and for the repayment option, i used to easyjet pay explanation, which pays a lower amount if the company pays you for it (hence remove the 25k from the equation) or if it is not sponsored, higher pay to 5k per year, as i understand from the website which explains it. this may or may not be the case.
i say 25k tr and for the repayment option, i used to easyjet pay explanation, which pays a lower amount if the company pays you for it (hence remove the 25k from the equation) or if it is not sponsored, higher pay to 5k per year, as i understand from the website which explains it. this may or may not be the case.
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Ok Chris, let's just say you have to pay the 80k over 7 years, you will still be paying well over a grand a month. What happens if you dont get a job?? How do you repay that?? Even if you dont get a job flying, your still going to need a job of some description, undoubtedly you will need a job paying you at least 30k a year, to keep your head above water. I cant even see how on the sliding payscale's you say you've looked into that you can afford the repayments. The 1st 2 - 3 years of FO employment just dont seem to pay enough money at all.
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mikecr i have done plenty of research into the finance issue and as far as i am concerned, i have enough personal experiences to use that schedule realistic. if you don't think it is, then i'm glad that there is healthy debate on the subject but the point of this post is not to discuss repayment plans.
i am not going to justify my ideas on repayment any more. they are, i would contend, realistic. you would agree that they are not. we shall agree to disagree
i would, however, without reply or argument from myself, be interested as to how long it took you to repay your training costs?
i am not going to justify my ideas on repayment any more. they are, i would contend, realistic. you would agree that they are not. we shall agree to disagree
i would, however, without reply or argument from myself, be interested as to how long it took you to repay your training costs?
Last edited by cfwake; 29th Nov 2006 at 11:16.
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Seeings you've asked - as you've probably read previously in this thread, im modular, and have been in F/T employment for the last 10 years(i turned 30 last month). I have paid all my training costs as and when i've been able to afford them. A lot of my flying hours were gained as a tuggy(nil cost to me but took a bit of pushing to get the post in the 1st place) at a local gliding club and apart from an 8k career development loan, I have no debt whatsoever to my flight training. I start my IR in 2 weeks and have offest the cost of that against the equity of my property. Similarly, if I have to pay for a TR thereafter then I still have more than sufficient equity available. I toyed with the idea when I was your age of doing the Integrated route but my parents would have disowned me if i'd tried to borrow 80 thousand squid! Admittedly, im now 30 and its taken a year or 2 longer to get towards the finish line, but I still have 30 years of flying ahead of me. Im not telling you to avoid the integrated route, im merelt trying to hammer home the fact that there are other options available. The like's of the OAT employment statistics arent actually that great, and you could save yourself literally thousands and thousands of pounds!
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thanks mcr, like i say i'm always interested to find out the finance aspect as it is undoubtedly one of the most important aspects of flying training - i understand the modular route but as i've discussed i'm fortunate enough to be in the situation of being able to afford to borrow that money. it is a hell of a lot of money but, wisely or unwisely, i have decided to take that financing route!
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Well good luck to you my friend and I sincerely hope you are able to afford it (as you say you are), and hope you have some kind of contingency plans in place if not. My intention was not to steer the thread away, but it scares me when i start reading abut young people, like yourself, borrowing vast amounts of money to get through training. Some of these flight schools are charging absolutely obscene amounts of money for courses, and unfortunately people are suckered into paying it, under some spell bound marketing illusion theyre going to get some great job at the end of it. I suspect probably only a third or so of each course, probably only the top scorers, get the reccomendations to the airlines. I feel very sorry for the ones who are left that have no job and a mountain of debt hanging over them that could have so easily been avoided.
The best of luck to you anyway though!
The best of luck to you anyway though!
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absolutely right, i am very grateful for your input even if we don't 'quite' see eye to eye! one good thing about app, tho, i would say is the funding schedule which gets you doing the written exams, supposedly the hardest part of the entire course, done first so the cheapest and most difficult bit is done - any mess ups there and the money spent is far less - this seems to work for the other stages as the money is taken in stages, now whether that is the case or not i don't know.
i'm also under very little illusion that when i do finish, i'm not expecting anything from anyone in the way of recommendations - any i do get will be a huge bonus but i certainly have no intention of sitting back and waiting for the job offers to roll in through any hired help, as it could be seen!
many thanks mcr sorry we seem to have got off on the wrong foot! all the best - happy landings!
i'm also under very little illusion that when i do finish, i'm not expecting anything from anyone in the way of recommendations - any i do get will be a huge bonus but i certainly have no intention of sitting back and waiting for the job offers to roll in through any hired help, as it could be seen!
many thanks mcr sorry we seem to have got off on the wrong foot! all the best - happy landings!
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JAA ATPL Exams
I wouldn't say the exams are the hardest or most difficult part, Chirs - they certainly are the most time consuming, least exciting and offer very little inspiration! One thing that helped me to get through them was by flying once or twice and month, alongside speaking to friends already in the job, or who were about to complete their training, type ratings etc. That gave me the motivation to get back into the books!
From what friends say, they find the MEP IR the most challenging, yet at the same time the most interesting. This is closely followed by the Type Rating course, which is on a par to your ATPLs and IR rolled into one. So I'm told anyway!
From what friends say, they find the MEP IR the most challenging, yet at the same time the most interesting. This is closely followed by the Type Rating course, which is on a par to your ATPLs and IR rolled into one. So I'm told anyway!
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Don't shoot the messenger, ask anyone! I spoke to a Ryanair skipper recently and he said the thought of having to do any of the exams again left him feeling physically sick! They aren't fun, but everyone with the desire to to this gets through them!
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J,
Including 'Performance'?? No thanks to a certain Harold Bishop tho!
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whatever the school you choose, a 200 hours pilot is still a 200 hours pilot on light planes.
I would look in his experience and they way he acts and flies and not the school's name.
Fly a plane is much more than just paying £80k to an unscrupulous manager who makes you believe you are somebody if you wear a little badge and a nice uniform.
"there are no good pilots, only old pilots"
personally I prefer to be independent and be debt free.loans are not for me!
Good luck to all of you!
and sleep well!because I do, I have no debt!
I would look in his experience and they way he acts and flies and not the school's name.
Fly a plane is much more than just paying £80k to an unscrupulous manager who makes you believe you are somebody if you wear a little badge and a nice uniform.
"there are no good pilots, only old pilots"
personally I prefer to be independent and be debt free.loans are not for me!
Good luck to all of you!
and sleep well!because I do, I have no debt!
Last edited by dartagnan; 29th Nov 2006 at 19:39.
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FTE claim that their grads have an average 8% higher marks than other schools - is this true?
in my opinion, during those seven years the salary should increase enough (and certainly from talking to pilots who have been through the process and are still going through the process of paying their loans etc back, this is the impression that i have been given) to clear my debts and maintain a decent, if not excessive, lifestyle.
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lol m8 i don't believe you understood my post. The previous poster was stating that if you go modular you can spend 30k and get those valuable licenses and i was simply stating that add 7k you can swim in ctc's hold pool.
Reading your other posts it's quite clear that you may not be fully aware of the other routes available to you...research!
Reading your other posts it's quite clear that you may not be fully aware of the other routes available to you...research!
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Without a doubt, the CTC Wings scheme is probably the most coveted program there is in aviation training today. I know that there are countless threads on the topic and I am quite aware of the high standards of assessment which go with it's entrance requirements, however quite a bit of time passes between applying for assessment to being plucked out of the hold pool and into a TR course is there not? Please don't think that this is a criticism of the scheme in any way, we all have to accept that things will never happen immediately in this game! However to some who have a repayment plan, they may not see it as being option unfortunately.
PS, I know they could go out and seek alternative employment or become an instructor while waiting etc
PS, I know they could go out and seek alternative employment or become an instructor while waiting etc
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I did a lot of work looking at the financing side and trying to justify £80-100k of debt + lost earnings for 2 years + interest to be paid on debt to go integrated so I spoke to a load of current pilots to get their view (my old man was with BA etc).. .most of them fell off there seats and had to pick their jaws up off the floor when told how much integrated training cost. Note these weren't just "old hands" who were lucky enough to have BA pick up the tab for their training (like my old man and his mates) but also my peers some of which self funded 8-9 years ago (most now at Cathy, BA or Lo-cos). If I had a pound everytime one of them said "madness" I would have had enough cash to go to Oxford several times over!
The other thing that struck me is not just to base your decision on "can I pay off the debt" without considering other issues likely to be increasingly prominant in your thinking over the next 10 years.... to get on the housing ladder today you will have to save at least £15-20k.... plus you also will have to start thinking about paying into a pension asap unless you believe the 10k most company schemes will give you to retire on is enough to support your lifestyle.
I think MikeCR has many many point that I wholeheartedly agree with. Also ask yourself why are 90% of the people that go through Oxford in the 18-25 year age bracket when those that are most likely to be able to afford the cost are 25-35 bracket with 5-10 years of work behind them?? Perhaps 5-10 years of working for a living gives you a better appreciation of just how much debt £80-100k is and what a weight around your neck it can be.
Look at it this way....
80k with an interest rate of 6.5% paid back over 10 years means your total repayments will be £105-110k.... that is the cash cost of your training not £80k... that is also out of post-tax earnings (your debt payments are not tax-deductible) so gross it up for tax you are looking at £150k worth of gross salary going to repay your debt over the 10 years... so on average 15k a year.... add 20k for a type rating and these numbers go to £135k and £190k respectively.... 19k of your gross salary a year.... frightening isn't it? Don't forget to factor in that the bank is not lending you the money for free so include the cost of the interest you will pay on your loan into the cost of the course.... I am amazed at how many people don't include the cost of interest paid on debt when calculating the cost of their training.
I'm not knocking Oxford its an excellent course and even the modular route isn't "cheap" but I am not surprised so many of the pilots I have spoken to think the costs involved for a newbie today are terrifying.
Oh well thats my 2 pennies worth.... having visited Oxford I decided to stay in work full time and go modular.... hey I may be wrong but heck at least i have no debt, 150-200 hrs in thelog book and most of the exams out of the way.... I sleep easy at night and my bank manager doesn't even know who I am
Once I get the little blue book next year I may even be lucky enough to get onto the CTC ATP scheme which strikes me as one of the most cost effective way into the airlines these days
The other thing that struck me is not just to base your decision on "can I pay off the debt" without considering other issues likely to be increasingly prominant in your thinking over the next 10 years.... to get on the housing ladder today you will have to save at least £15-20k.... plus you also will have to start thinking about paying into a pension asap unless you believe the 10k most company schemes will give you to retire on is enough to support your lifestyle.
I think MikeCR has many many point that I wholeheartedly agree with. Also ask yourself why are 90% of the people that go through Oxford in the 18-25 year age bracket when those that are most likely to be able to afford the cost are 25-35 bracket with 5-10 years of work behind them?? Perhaps 5-10 years of working for a living gives you a better appreciation of just how much debt £80-100k is and what a weight around your neck it can be.
Look at it this way....
80k with an interest rate of 6.5% paid back over 10 years means your total repayments will be £105-110k.... that is the cash cost of your training not £80k... that is also out of post-tax earnings (your debt payments are not tax-deductible) so gross it up for tax you are looking at £150k worth of gross salary going to repay your debt over the 10 years... so on average 15k a year.... add 20k for a type rating and these numbers go to £135k and £190k respectively.... 19k of your gross salary a year.... frightening isn't it? Don't forget to factor in that the bank is not lending you the money for free so include the cost of the interest you will pay on your loan into the cost of the course.... I am amazed at how many people don't include the cost of interest paid on debt when calculating the cost of their training.
I'm not knocking Oxford its an excellent course and even the modular route isn't "cheap" but I am not surprised so many of the pilots I have spoken to think the costs involved for a newbie today are terrifying.
Oh well thats my 2 pennies worth.... having visited Oxford I decided to stay in work full time and go modular.... hey I may be wrong but heck at least i have no debt, 150-200 hrs in thelog book and most of the exams out of the way.... I sleep easy at night and my bank manager doesn't even know who I am
Once I get the little blue book next year I may even be lucky enough to get onto the CTC ATP scheme which strikes me as one of the most cost effective way into the airlines these days