Jerez V Oxford: Again!
 

Hi guys!

Right, a fairly simple one this one and one that will hopefully not string off for too long!

I've passed the tests to get into the Oxford APP which if i go will be starting around June/July next year. But I'm going to Jerez in January to do the tests. I was hoping to speak to someone who has been to both and has a good idea of if there is any difference in the airline's eyes as to which is preferable. I have a fair guess that whichever i go to i won't be going far wrong as the feedback that I get is that both are regarded extremely highly, but if i have an offer from both I have a choice and I may find it very difficult to decide. Oxford, in my experience, are an extremely eager, professional outfit who have a lot of time for you as long as you put the effort in, they seem to have a1 facilities that Jerez falls behind on and the quality of teaching seems to be pretty much identical.

Jerez, on the other hand, seems to be the best in europe in many people's eyes, with slightly more outated technical facilities (i refer to the 125 sim vs 2 737 sims in particular) and no comparable course to Oxford's JOC or First officer fundamentals. Not wishing to start a discussion on the importance of these as people will undoubtedly have their own opinions, but is the technical and tutoring advantage of Oxford outweighed by just how good Jerez is? Is Jerez so much better than any other flying school or is the real-world difference minimal? I get the impression that any line looking for pilots tends to see Oxford and Jerez at a similar if not identical level.

Essay over any information will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
Chris Wake

Hi M8,
 

There are plenty of threads dedicted to both schools. For oxford i would pay attention to the oxford thread and especially to the following post:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...1&postcount=96

Quote:

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A few things you wont hear from Oxford but I wish I knew prior to going there. Their average course size is 25 people per month, that equates to 300 students a year. If you look at the “Employment Statistics” section on their website, graduate jobs for 2006 currently stands at 141 that equates to a successful graduate employment figure of 47%

From my experience Oxford career services should only be claiming that they have managed to gain employment for the following companies BA, BA Connect, Excel, FlyBe and Jet2, which is a grand total of 61 jobs (21%) according to their latest web site figures (2006) If you take into account the GECAT scheme where you have to pay ₤500.00 for an assessment and then fund your own type rating, then you have BMI, BMI Baby, Easyjet and Thomas Cook which totals 33 (11%) but this is more a GECAT success than Oxford career services. Combining these 2 figures together (being generous towards OAT) it comes to 32% graduate employment. A further 47 (16%) of graduates have managed to gain employment from their own initiatives. This leaves 159 (52%) students without jobs, zero help from Oxford careers services and a whopping debt yet you have paid over the odds for a careers service that is no where near as successful as it claims to be.

To be in this 32% there are some un-written rules that you will not be aware of when you start your APP course. To stand any chance of the selection board giving you a recommendation at the end of your training you need to have ground school first time passes with an average of 85+% you will need “3” or better in all flight tests and a first series IR. Any mistakes along the way during your training will rule you out of receiving any recommendation from OAT’s selection board. Even if you do achieve this standard your face needs to fit, they have to “decide” to like you and you have no control over this.

You need to also be aware of the EPST (European Pilot Selection & Training) Dutch contingent, they get preferential treatment especially when being put forward for jobs due to contractual obligations between then and Oxford, so any English student is immediately disadvantaged.

The 16% who find employment through their own imitative were binned by Oxford yet when Oxford hear of their success, they suddenly pull your name out of the bin and proudly put it on their “Graduate Jobs Board” and put you in as a statistic on their web site as if you are one of their success stories.

Overall you have a less than 1 in 3 chance of successfully being employed through OAT

The actual school and their training I have no problem with however I take issue with the misleading marketing spin they employ, you believe that you are paying a premium for the use of OAT’s many contacts in the airline industry, their careers service and the so called employment boom that is apparently about to happen in the next month or two (after 2 years of this it wears thin!!)

If I knew all these facts before going to OAT, I would have perhaps gone elsewhere and definitely have gone down the Modular route as the truth about the integrated course is just hype and does not deliver a job in the fashion they would have you believe. Taking the cheaper modular route will mean that you will still spend the ₤60,000+ but included in this cost will be a type rating that you will most probably have to pay for.

Other schools integrated courses may be similar, I don’t know, I can only comment on my own experience, This post is not intended to just slate Oxford, I feel it is important for any wannabe to know that before parting with a huge sum of money that you know precisely what you are going to get for that money and the fact that there is a very good chance that you will graduate and then be left to your own devices with a monumental debt. You very quickly become the forgotten Oxford student; there are many of us out there!

One final piece of advice: Read between the lines of all the marketing spin thrown at you! At the end of the day it’s your decision and you need to be able to live with that.


:ouch:

---

I to was offered a place @ OAT and the above post with some careful financial research opened my eyes.


Oxford thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=254025

Remember you will be spending in the region of 80K @ Oxford

FTE thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215158


I believe both sims @ oxford & Jerez are FNPT2 and yes oxfords ressembles a 737 but the likes of BA, TF, Flybe etx recruit from FTE too.

Well if you ask me FTE is the better of the 2 simply because they told me the truth from day one and if i was going the integrated route it would be my choice. Oh yes and its allot cheaper without comprimising on quality.

Good luck in whatever decision you make.

+RF

It never ceases to amaze me that, despite the fact that 'airlines prefer Oxford/FTE/Cabair/CTC' (delete according to whichever you don't attend), students from good old bog average modular schools still get jobs. In fact (shock/horror scoop of the week), more airline pilots come from the modular route than the integrated route.

Strange that, innit? I wonder if anyone's told the OAT/FTE/Cabair?CTC marketing peeps?

Do you know what else? Some of us airline pilots didn't go to public school either - but don't tell the Press - or the Integrated schools; they might be disappointed!

Scroggs

I just love reading Scroggs' replies....

Just to nitpick for a second. Jerez boasts a HS125 simulator which is a FULL sim, on hydraulics, which has been approved for actual type training so it does actually fly just like the aircraft. OATS have a 'simulator' which has been designed to look quite like a 737 and to behave in a similar way.

The first is a very expensive piece of kit and the latter is less so.

But then wannabes are very impressed with how 'cool' the flightdeck looks.

My advice. Go modular, use the cash to pay for a type rating - its working for increasing numbers of people. Sadly.

WWW

Oxford Aviation Training
 

I went to Oxford for one of their open days and then later for assessment. At the time I was keeping my options very open to what route I was going to take. I can't deny I was impressed by what OAT had on display. Nice clean modern facilities, their own range of 1st class ATPL texts, initial training in the USA, a modern fleet of aircraft, links to all the airlines, a little uniform and a name badge for you to wear, a 737 sim for your MCC......................bloody hell, hold on here.......after 3 years working for a sales and marketing company I was ready to take the 'Oxford sales and marketing model' back to my employers...these guys were damn good!! They had all their best students on parade that day (incidentally 3 of them that I met now have jobs with BA - I know this from looking at Oxford's student Alumni site) and they all seemed to have been briefed on what and what not to say! We had a fantastic motivational talk from one of their head honchos, who spoke of this miraculous employment boom and of the global pilot shortage. OAT's long standing history with the airlines was highlighted again and again, and my favourite line of the day, "when you go to major airports like Heathrow and Gatwick, the majority of pilots that you see there are Oxford men and women!"

By the end of the day, I would say that if you had given about 90% of the people who attended the open day a piece of paper and a pen, they would have asked "where do I sign?" And this was, I must admit, all done with very little mention to COST. Sure HSBC loans were spoken about, and the 'play it safe figure' of £60,000 was banded about, however what wasn't mentioned was the cost of everything else. Living expenses, travel, and heaven forbid should you need them; exam and test resit fees, extra lessons, and finally, the pres de resistance, the £20,000 for the TYPE RATING that you will probably have to shell out for!!

Anyway, being a dunderhead, I was hooked and signed up for assessment. It was after all, the number one FTO; it would give me a better chance than any of getting a job. After all I would sale through the training with no problems what so ever with this lot!

Well, I went back for assessment a few weeks later and the rosy Oxford picture didn't seem so rosy. This time, all their students were on parade, and some weren't so happy. I spoke to some who were struggling a little and felt they were being left behind. Some others told me to forget budgeting for £60,000 - it would take £80,000+; especially if you were living away from home. And all this trooping around in uniforms reminded me too much of school!
Sure, I spoke to others that were loving it; they were off to Phoenix in a few weeks and were doing well. I met a few guys who already had been forwarded to BA for interview and they hadn't even done their MCC yet! But one thing that I couldn't get out of my head was what if I didn't do so well here, what if I struggled, what if I got left behind? Would Oxford be interested then? Well to be perfectly honest, I'm not so sure? As a result, I gave up on Oxford and the whole integrated scene after that. It wasn’t for me, and I’m not sorry about it!

Recently I went to an 1 day interview prep course at Oxford, which was all APPed up, with little old modular fella (me), stuck in there. In all my life I have never met a more unwelcoming bunch of people except about 2. They all talked at me about how great it was that they were going to walk into a job and what a shame, poor little old me was just a modular fella. Spouting OAT's website almost word for word. I was called the 'guest', I thought, 'bugger off I paid for this!'

In all my life I have never known anything like it, they made no effort to know me and what I do, and they really do believe they are better than the rest. The only clear advantage it gives you is BA, and I don't fancy working for them right now with that pension farce.

I'm a proud modular guy, save the dosh and pay for a type rating WWW is a wise man! That's what I'm doing as I've given up on Flybe besides some of the major TRTOs do actually get people jobs without all the marketing ****e, I know many from GECAT who got interviews a week after finishing and then started work soon after.

My 2p's worth!

hi everyone

thank you for all the info which i have read and had time to digest.

i must say i have actually been to OAT for a very thorough look around and cannot find a bad thing to say about it. everyone that i have met has been extremely frienldy, and that includes those students that i was not introduced to.

i would like to add that i am extremely aware of the financial benefit of heading to FTE over OAT, but while people do make comments about OAT bigging their link with the airlines up, I have spoken to many, many people in the industry, pilots as well as educational and recruitment staff and i would argue that their boasts are justified. I would also add that FTE makes reference to their links with industry as well. I would not hold this against anyone as at the end of the day these people want your business and it would be negligent and a poor marketing strategy not to make mention of thoise airlines who recruit pilots from each school, wouldn't you if you were trying to fill places for your own school??

adding to that, i would remind people that no flying school ever says that they have links with airlines and that other schools do not, there is a line between advertising and false information.

most of the answers have revolved around modular vs integrated courses. i would like to interject and state that that wasn't actually a debate i was concerning myself with as i am definitely going integrated, while i understand the cost and flexibility benefits, this is a route that i am not going down and i am happy with the financial implications; i have been researching into flying jobs for years as many other people and have come to a personal decision that i am fortunate enough to be able to secure finance for this route.

the sim argument, i would argue, i a valid one and the reason i ask, but i would argue for the 737 sims as these are more representative of the aircraft type that one would fly in career mode for an airline. while it may not be worth almost twelve thousand cheaper, i would advise against rubbishing the value of this but who am i to say that i haven't started my course yet even!!!

but thank you very much for the replies, the modular debate is interesting but not for me.

Scroggs, however, i would like to consder your points. you mentioned that some airline pilots didn't go to public school. well some do and indeed some of us trainees did so watch your comments on that issue as it could appear insulting and ill-informed.

i never insinuated that modular pilots have fewer employment prospects than integrated students but i have done a lot of research into the issue and for my two cents i would argue that for some (not all) airlines, an integrated student may be seen as a preferable option to a modular student, as it may well be the other way round for others.

scroggs, i would never dumb down the modular route as it is the same hard work and sometimes is probably harder due to external pressures usually places on mod guys over integs. Perhaps you should consider that you are suggesting that those pilots who go down an integrated route are foolish for doing so.

thank you all for the comments, i look forward to your replies (especially scroggs - don't take it personally mate!)

Sounds like you have already made up your mind old chap...best of luck..:}

p.s. awaiting scroggs reply (this should be good)..:p

Chris,

You sound like a sensible fellow, and it obviuosly sounds like you are suited to the integrated life - I wish you well on that. There is no doubt out there that Oxford have everything to back up the reputation that they boast, as do the likes of CTC or FTE for that matter. As long as airlines continue to lift the phone and ask for cadets to be sent for interview, their reputation can remain intact. Placing aside their standard of training, which is without doubt very good, it is maybe because of this fact that they feel they can charge a little more. Saying all this, I can't detract from the opinion that a lot of people can be taken up by the 'hype' which is involved with an airline approved integrated course. I'm not saying that you are an example of one of these people, all I'm saying is it may be prudent to be aware of the pitfalls - however it sounds like you have already! Best of luck again.

CK

If you only have 2 cents, who is funding your training?:E

cheers guys! rogueflyer01 not quite!! nearly but i want to see what FTE say - the only reason i can say so much about OAT and less about FTE is that i haven't been there yet!!! cheers foir wishing me luck i'm fairly sure that wherever i end up there'll be plenty of times that i'll need it!!!!!

Dr Eckener, i actually only do have two cents especially with chrimbo around the corner!!!!!! luckily HSBC and some other sources have more that they can lend me - and i emphasise - they're definitely only lending it to me!!!!!!!!!!

Ck thanks very much, i very much appreciate your advice!!! it's something that i've become increasingly wary of as time has gone on!!

can i also ask, WWW, when you said about the sims, what did you mean?! i realise with you having said that, that this may be something i didn't know! are you saying that the OAT sims are not approved for TR etc? i would add that they are on a 3 axis hydraulic system too - i saw them the other day and they're massive!!! they're saying about getting a CRJ sim soon too - but if my TR wouldn't be part of the course anyway, presumably it doesn't really make a difference (up to the point of a non-type rated ATPL) if the sims are representative or fully fledged home from homes?!

cheers!

Exactly - they are using FNPT II sims, built in a "737-style" flightdeck, with much of the "real 737" there, but solely for MCC (and JOC?) purposes. It is not a Level C/D 737 sim for TR purposes by any means imaginable, and is not certified to a level to my knowledge per CAA records.

FTE have a real sim - Hawker 800, certified to Spanish CAA L2B.

You have to think though - what is the purpose of the sim, is the Oxford one going to give you a real "glass cockpit" exposure being only FNPT II etc, and indeed, do you really need that for what you are using it for?

One is bulit for purpose (Ox), while the other might be more similar to one used for sim check (FTE). Are you going to get any useful experience though in the real one at FTE - possibly not.

A CRJ sim (presumably as few people are flying CRJs at the moment, so they are cheap and available) would probably be more real.

Frankly, you could do MCC in something cheap and nasty if you wanted - they are just tempting you with bells and whistles!

cheers for clearing that one up lucifer!

You might want to refresh - I've been editing!

aha! just to clarify, as i know what you're saying but i'm not sure on your conclusion (!), that for the purpose that i'll be using it (MCC, JOC) it doesn't make a huge difference which one i use?!

There is, and some schools' marketing spiel is damn close to crossing that line.
Exactly. :rolleyes:

Come on, little fishy - just a little further...

Now we're beginning to talk turkey! Go back and read what you've written. Are Oxford paying you? Last time I looked, it cost about £80k for the full deal at Oxford. By the sound of it, you have absolutely no concept of how much money and work that represents to an average person. Perhaps someone else is financing your training, in which case the cost is not an issue, but, on your financier's behalf, you should be ensuring you get value for money and should be able to look beyond the marketing flannel. Unfortunately for you, it would seem that they have you hook, line and sinker, and if that BA job (with its crap pension) doesn't come your way, perhaps OAT PR might employ you?

Really, you need to be a little less credulous and a little more discerning - not to say sceptical. Your posts suggest that in fact you have done very little research except to find information that justifies your pre-judgement. I have nothing against Oxford - they are a very good school - but I find the unfiltered sales blurb that is regurgitated by those who have yet to start training somewhat unpalateable.

Scroggs

thank you scroggs.

consider me told off! I'll certainly go away and rethink my plans and stance because actually you know, i really hadn't even begun to consider the 80 grand loan that i'm having to scrape together to fund my flying training! i hadn't thought that i'm going to be paying it back for over 5 years assuming i get a job, and i certainly hadn't considered, like pretty much every other student that undertakes this major financial commitment, the very very severe effects of not finding employment within, say, six months such as having to declare bankruptcy and all of the future restrictions that that would place upon me in terms of buying property and securing all other finances, especially as i work in the finance industry at the moment and am confronted daily with people who are about to get thrown of of their homes!

i also had COMPLETELY forgotten to consider any other airline than the glittering prospect of flying for BA - it's certainly the only airline that i have thought of flying for! in fact, aren't all OAT graduates guaranteed that nice lovely 747 cockpit and wonderful uniform with the accolade of "Trained by OAT"???

ah well, time to go away and rethink!!! silly me! i'll have to go away and start again eh! thanks for talking turkey and bringing me, a 'little fishy', a lot closer to reality!!!

the part of your post which so delicately describes my carefully weighted argument about the sims? did you notice that i said "while it may not be worth almost twelve thousand more" in there? or did you read it as 'Oxford Aviation School's Frasca II 737-400 three-axis flight simulators are some of the most advanced in the world and have been carefully chosen with the needs of the student in mind to provide a more realistic and enjoyable training experience.' the latter certainly sounds more like what you read!

please enlighten us all, were you a modular pilot scroggs? and please just assure me that you did actually take to heart what i said about the private schools part of your post, because you stayed pretty quiet on that one!

in your reply to this post, if you wish to, please reiterate some of the "unfiltered sales blurb that is regurgitated by those who have yet to start training". include those parts which credit OAT with things that are untrue and biased towards OAT only and no other flying school?

many thanks scroggs

I think scroggs came from the RAF, I dont know but I guess their training is a bit more like intergrated.

The fact is you can get the same licences that you pay OAT £80,000. For less than £20,000 if you pick the right schools and go the modular route. No wonder people have reasons to have a negative view of OAT.

I personally havent decided whether to do integrated or modular, but at the end of the day, virtually anybody can get on the OAT course as HSBC loan you the money, so its nothing special.