Logbook and Logging Hours Questions
Frank,
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well, i'm allocating 10 days next month to travel to every operator I ever rented an aircraft from (worldwide) so as I can get that all important rubber stamp and squiggle!!
!
Thanks guys
!Thanks guys
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I have flown 1600 hours in USA and now going for a jar-fcl certificate. Do I have to make now a new log book and log everything from the beginnig to JAR-FCL requirements regarding PIC?
Help Needed with my FAA logbook
I have looked through the other questions posed on this area, but have not found what I myself am looking for.
This is the thing. I did all my training the FAA way. Recently I converted the FAA CPL ME & SE into the JAA CPL ME & SE. In the new year I will convert my FAA IR into the JAA ME IR. Whilst I was out in the States the JAA examiner there noticed that according to the JAA system, I did not have enough PIC time. The reason being that I didn't know that the FAA and the JAA log hours differently. In the FAA system you can log time both as Dual Received and PIC, but in the JAA system you can only log either.
Anyhow, I was quite a few hours short of PIC time. I have got them now, but here lies my question. Can someone please explain to me if and how I can log all the hours that I have from my FAA hours, as I have many of them and of course I would like to know how I log them on the SRG\1123 form. I know it is a lot to ask, but is there anyone out there who is willing to help me step by step with part 5 - Flying Experience.
Does this form also allow for you to log your FAA time? Sorry if this seems dumb to ask, its just that I want to send it off properly to the CAA and not have them send it back to me, because I have filled it in incorrectly.
I hope someone out there is kind enough to help me with this. It would be much appreciated.
This is the thing. I did all my training the FAA way. Recently I converted the FAA CPL ME & SE into the JAA CPL ME & SE. In the new year I will convert my FAA IR into the JAA ME IR. Whilst I was out in the States the JAA examiner there noticed that according to the JAA system, I did not have enough PIC time. The reason being that I didn't know that the FAA and the JAA log hours differently. In the FAA system you can log time both as Dual Received and PIC, but in the JAA system you can only log either.
Anyhow, I was quite a few hours short of PIC time. I have got them now, but here lies my question. Can someone please explain to me if and how I can log all the hours that I have from my FAA hours, as I have many of them and of course I would like to know how I log them on the SRG\1123 form. I know it is a lot to ask, but is there anyone out there who is willing to help me step by step with part 5 - Flying Experience.
Does this form also allow for you to log your FAA time? Sorry if this seems dumb to ask, its just that I want to send it off properly to the CAA and not have them send it back to me, because I have filled it in incorrectly.
I hope someone out there is kind enough to help me with this. It would be much appreciated.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I don't think we can help you with your entire logbook, no. But I'm sure we can help with specific issues.
The first thing is to understand exactly what it is that you are required to log under JAR. Have a read of LASORS, Section A, Appendix B (page 56 of the .PDF file, with page number 38 of Section A printed at the bottom of the page), and if there's anything specific in there you don't understand, come back to us and we'll explain it. Understand the differences between how to log time under FAR and JAR. (You clearly already understand some of the differences.)
As for the exact amount of hours to claim, if you've got several hundred hours in your logbook, it is obviously going to be a pain to re-calculate all your hours. So, where you obviously exceed the requirements, don't bother - just make a rough guess at how many of the specific type of hours you've got, subtract a bit (to be on the safe side), and use that. For example, this is what I do for cross-country hours. My logbook doesn't have a column for cross-country hours. Under JAR, cross-country means more than 3nm from the airfield - in other words, anything except circuits. So I make a rough guess of what percentage of my total flight time is anything other than circuits, and use that. As long as it's lower than the actual number, but higher than the required number, everyone will be happy.
When you are close to having exactly the required number of hours (as you appear to be with your PIC time), I don't think there is any way around it other than to add up the hours line by line. Time consuming, but necessary.
Hope that helps.
FFF
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The first thing is to understand exactly what it is that you are required to log under JAR. Have a read of LASORS, Section A, Appendix B (page 56 of the .PDF file, with page number 38 of Section A printed at the bottom of the page), and if there's anything specific in there you don't understand, come back to us and we'll explain it. Understand the differences between how to log time under FAR and JAR. (You clearly already understand some of the differences.)
As for the exact amount of hours to claim, if you've got several hundred hours in your logbook, it is obviously going to be a pain to re-calculate all your hours. So, where you obviously exceed the requirements, don't bother - just make a rough guess at how many of the specific type of hours you've got, subtract a bit (to be on the safe side), and use that. For example, this is what I do for cross-country hours. My logbook doesn't have a column for cross-country hours. Under JAR, cross-country means more than 3nm from the airfield - in other words, anything except circuits. So I make a rough guess of what percentage of my total flight time is anything other than circuits, and use that. As long as it's lower than the actual number, but higher than the required number, everyone will be happy.
When you are close to having exactly the required number of hours (as you appear to be with your PIC time), I don't think there is any way around it other than to add up the hours line by line. Time consuming, but necessary.
Hope that helps.
FFF
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Thank you so much for your help. I looked in Lasors and noticed that in the JAR system you have PIC, SPIC and PICUS. Amazing that this is so different to the FAA system. They only have PIC and during my Multi Engine rating I did make a column for Supervised Solo, so I am hoping that this can count for PICUS or SPIC. Not quite sure which yet as I was not rated in that aircraft yet, but according to the FAA system I had to fly "solo" in the aircraft but an instructor had to be with me. However, he moved away his chair and I was the PIC. I started and finished the flight.
I am a bit confused as how I am supposed to log my Instrument time, as I accumulated many hours here and of course in the FAA system it has all been logged as Dual Received and PIC. Can I put any of these hours down as anything?
I do thank you a lot for helping me with this.
I am sure that I have many questions for you as I do this and I hope you do not mind.
I am going to be doing my IR conversion in January and thus will wait to send all the paperwork until then. Will I need to fill out another SRG\1119 for that as I did for the Single Engine add on?
Thanks again for your help.
I am a bit confused as how I am supposed to log my Instrument time, as I accumulated many hours here and of course in the FAA system it has all been logged as Dual Received and PIC. Can I put any of these hours down as anything?
I do thank you a lot for helping me with this.
I am sure that I have many questions for you as I do this and I hope you do not mind.
I am going to be doing my IR conversion in January and thus will wait to send all the paperwork until then. Will I need to fill out another SRG\1119 for that as I did for the Single Engine add on?
Thanks again for your help.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If you are not rated on an aircraft, and there is an instructor in the aircraft with you, he is P1, and your are PUT.
The other options you suggest don't apply. SPIC is specific to integrated training courses, and you haven't done an integrated course. The only reason given for logging PICUS in a single-pilot aircraft is for a successful skills test, so that one doesn't count either if it wasn't a test.
From a JAR point of view, an aircraft only ever has one commander, and that will nearly always be the instructor/examiner if he is on board, and you if he is not.
Your instrument time will all count as Dual (PUT) too, if the instructor was on board, assuming that he was captain of the flight. As well as logging it as PUT, you should also have a column in your logbook for recording instrument time, so make sure you count the time in this column too.
Not sure about the paperwork for your IR. I assume by "IR conversion" you mean converting it to JAR? In that case, your best bet is probably to speak to your IR instructor or examiner in January.
FFF
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The other options you suggest don't apply. SPIC is specific to integrated training courses, and you haven't done an integrated course. The only reason given for logging PICUS in a single-pilot aircraft is for a successful skills test, so that one doesn't count either if it wasn't a test.
From a JAR point of view, an aircraft only ever has one commander, and that will nearly always be the instructor/examiner if he is on board, and you if he is not.
Your instrument time will all count as Dual (PUT) too, if the instructor was on board, assuming that he was captain of the flight. As well as logging it as PUT, you should also have a column in your logbook for recording instrument time, so make sure you count the time in this column too.
Not sure about the paperwork for your IR. I assume by "IR conversion" you mean converting it to JAR? In that case, your best bet is probably to speak to your IR instructor or examiner in January.
FFF
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Logging hours in right hand seat?
hi there, i was recently speaking to a friend of mine who is undergoing his ATPL course. He is a good pilot and knows his stuff for sure! He told me that while he was doing his hour building in California to get to his 100hrs PIC to save a few pound he logged a couple of flights he never actualy flew!! To be honest I cant see this really effecting his flying skill or ability as it was only some pleasure hour building. But none the less I'm just curious what would happen if he was found out, or even how would that be found out!
Not something I would recommend, but He's going to be submitting his paperwork to the CAA mid Jan and I'm just hoping he' gets though!!
Happy Xmas guys'n Gals
Not something I would recommend, but He's going to be submitting his paperwork to the CAA mid Jan and I'm just hoping he' gets though!!
Happy Xmas guys'n Gals
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If he gets caught, he's screwed, and rightly so.
Deliberate, false entries in a logbook constitute fraud with the aim of obtaining a qualification which will put the perpetrator into a position to be responsible for the lives of hundreds of others.
The CAA - rightly - takes a very serious stance towards this.
I have heard of a story where a falsely logged cross-country flight was detected by the CAA at the time of licence application, and the pilot's whole licence was revoked; his further career as a pilot found an abrupt end.
Further, I quote from a CAA application form:
It is an offence to make, with intent to deceive, any false representations for the purpose of procuring the grant, issue, renewal or variation of any certificate, licence, approval, permission or other document. Persons doing so render themselves liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (currently £5000, or in Northern Ireland £2000) and on conviction on indictment to an unlimited fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.
In other words, your knowledgeable friend, who knows his stuff for sure, might get some quality time to reflect on things in prison.
Your friend jeopardises himself and others - future passengers and fellow wannabes, who have to jump through the same hoops to get their qualifications.
I hope he has the sense to correct his logbook before he sends it in.
KK
Deliberate, false entries in a logbook constitute fraud with the aim of obtaining a qualification which will put the perpetrator into a position to be responsible for the lives of hundreds of others.
The CAA - rightly - takes a very serious stance towards this.
I have heard of a story where a falsely logged cross-country flight was detected by the CAA at the time of licence application, and the pilot's whole licence was revoked; his further career as a pilot found an abrupt end.
Further, I quote from a CAA application form:
It is an offence to make, with intent to deceive, any false representations for the purpose of procuring the grant, issue, renewal or variation of any certificate, licence, approval, permission or other document. Persons doing so render themselves liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (currently £5000, or in Northern Ireland £2000) and on conviction on indictment to an unlimited fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.
In other words, your knowledgeable friend, who knows his stuff for sure, might get some quality time to reflect on things in prison.
Your friend jeopardises himself and others - future passengers and fellow wannabes, who have to jump through the same hoops to get their qualifications.
I hope he has the sense to correct his logbook before he sends it in.
KK
Well, it's pretty clear, for a start, that 'genius747's statement that he hopes that his 'friend' get's through is a load of bollox, or he wouldn't have raised the subject in the first place. That aside, one can only agree with KrazyKraut, especially as the CAA is rumoured to be looking increasingly closely at the conduct of JAA flight training in the USA.
It would appear, for example, that it is almost impossible to fail a CPL skill test, unless one is stupid enough to use the wrong FE (there are, of course, only two to choose from). On the evidence of the US-trained product that I and my fellow TRIs have to deal with on a daily basis, it's long past time that the UK CAA got a grip of their self-made disaster area.
It would appear, for example, that it is almost impossible to fail a CPL skill test, unless one is stupid enough to use the wrong FE (there are, of course, only two to choose from). On the evidence of the US-trained product that I and my fellow TRIs have to deal with on a daily basis, it's long past time that the UK CAA got a grip of their self-made disaster area.
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Your 'friend' is a criminal, and I very much hope he is caught. Such behaviour is fraudulent and inconsistent with the integrity required in a safety-critical occupation. Tell him to cough up the money and fly the hours.
Scroggs
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If the CAA had the time and inclination to do a full audit I wouldn't have thought that it would be all that difficult. Just think of the paper trail that is maintained at a FTO. From booking sheets and hobbs meter readings, prop logs, engine logs etc it isn't hard to marry up the total time flown from the FTO records to a pilots log book and note any discrepancies. Somewhere in LASORS or the FAA equivalent there will no doubt be rules about how long these records must be maintained which will invariably be a number of years at a minimum. If your friend logged landings at controlled airports then it would be relatively simple to obtain a list of tail numbers on the given days and check back to the logbook again. Pretty simple stuff really that a first year auditor at any of the Big 4 could do in a few hours.
Also don't forget that each time your logbook is submitted to the CAA that a copy is taken and whilst they may sign off your licence there and then there is no reason whatsoever to stop them from auditing the logbook at a later stage. I would imagine that there would be "understandings" between the different licensing agencies across the world to obtain information if they needed it as well.
Although there are anecdotes recited at every FTO that the CAA is weak on checking logbooks I don't believe this for a minute and pure logic would dictate that they regularly audit a sample of logbooks without any of us being any the wiser.
Also don't forget that each time your logbook is submitted to the CAA that a copy is taken and whilst they may sign off your licence there and then there is no reason whatsoever to stop them from auditing the logbook at a later stage. I would imagine that there would be "understandings" between the different licensing agencies across the world to obtain information if they needed it as well.
Although there are anecdotes recited at every FTO that the CAA is weak on checking logbooks I don't believe this for a minute and pure logic would dictate that they regularly audit a sample of logbooks without any of us being any the wiser.
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He might not get caught initially, but just wait untill he has an incident or accident, they will go through his logbook with a fine toothcomb. They will verify every single flight he did and with whom it was done, as well as every single solo flight.
There are few things in life that are as outright stupid as what your friend has done.
There are few things in life that are as outright stupid as what your friend has done.
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Your friend is an idiot and a criminal. He will get caught in time. Let's take the accident investigation scenario a bit further for yet another ramification. Not only will aviation authorities investigate, but so will any insurance companies who have underwritten your friend. So he can add insurance fraud to his list of offenses as well. He'll also have to cough up the monies due to any victims when the insurance company denies the claim based on his falsified policy application.
I question not only his judgement, but yours too since you think that he's such a great pilot when he clearly lacks the judgement to be a true pro.
The scenario makes me wonder if he is you rather than a friend and you only posted it in the guise of a friend because you've suddenly had a temporary lapse into "good conscience." I do hope this is the case as you still have time to correct your logbook.
I question not only his judgement, but yours too since you think that he's such a great pilot when he clearly lacks the judgement to be a true pro.
The scenario makes me wonder if he is you rather than a friend and you only posted it in the guise of a friend because you've suddenly had a temporary lapse into "good conscience." I do hope this is the case as you still have time to correct your logbook.
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genius747, lets be clear about a couple of things.
He is a good pilot
No he isn't ! He is dishonest with himself and others. His behaviour is immature fraudulant and criminal. You may need to research the subject a little further, but these are not the attributes that are generally considered to make a "good pilot".
knows his stuff for sure
No he doesn't ! he doesn't understand the rules, he doesn't understand the basic requirements and why they are there in the first place. He doesn't understand the law and what will happen to him if his supposed violations are discovered. He doesn't even seem to understand the rank idiocy of then commiting a crime and telling "your friend" of that offence. One can only wonder at what other "stuff" you think he knows for sure.
To be honest
Unlike the company you keep.
I cant see this really effecting his flying skill or ability
Skills and ability are a result of experience. If the experience is nothing more than fantasy and a ball point pen where is this skill and ability exactly ? If anybody is ever unlucky enough to be injured or killed as a result of flying with an individual who lied about his experience, can you begin to imagine the field day the claimants lawyers will quite rightly have with him, his estate, and his unfortunate employer.
I'm just curious what would happen if he was found out, or even how would that be found out!
He would be prosecuted, possibly imprisoned and almost certainly prevented from ever working within this industry as a pilot. His career would be over before it ever began. How would he be found out ? Well I am sure there are people from the CAA that read this site. In fact I am very sure ! It wouldn't be very difficult to weed out those applicants with 100 hours PIC amassed in california and submitting in January or February just from what you have posted.
He's going to be submitting his paperwork to the CAA mid Jan and I'm just hoping he' gets though!!
Then you are a poor judge of character. Nobody in their right mind should be hoping "he gets through". Perhaps you should tell "your friend" to tear up his fictitious logbook and set about rectifying the shortfall in his real experience. Whilst he is at it he might want to take a seriously introspective look at his character and behaviour and question whether he is the sort of person he thinks suitable for this profession. Unfortunetaly his ability to lie to himself may make this something of a moot point.
Hopefully your "friend" will be caught ( assuming this isn't something of a seasonal joke) and the information you have posted certainly should make that more likely.
Happy Xmas to you too.
He is a good pilot
No he isn't ! He is dishonest with himself and others. His behaviour is immature fraudulant and criminal. You may need to research the subject a little further, but these are not the attributes that are generally considered to make a "good pilot".
knows his stuff for sure
No he doesn't ! he doesn't understand the rules, he doesn't understand the basic requirements and why they are there in the first place. He doesn't understand the law and what will happen to him if his supposed violations are discovered. He doesn't even seem to understand the rank idiocy of then commiting a crime and telling "your friend" of that offence. One can only wonder at what other "stuff" you think he knows for sure.
To be honest
Unlike the company you keep.
I cant see this really effecting his flying skill or ability
Skills and ability are a result of experience. If the experience is nothing more than fantasy and a ball point pen where is this skill and ability exactly ? If anybody is ever unlucky enough to be injured or killed as a result of flying with an individual who lied about his experience, can you begin to imagine the field day the claimants lawyers will quite rightly have with him, his estate, and his unfortunate employer.
I'm just curious what would happen if he was found out, or even how would that be found out!
He would be prosecuted, possibly imprisoned and almost certainly prevented from ever working within this industry as a pilot. His career would be over before it ever began. How would he be found out ? Well I am sure there are people from the CAA that read this site. In fact I am very sure ! It wouldn't be very difficult to weed out those applicants with 100 hours PIC amassed in california and submitting in January or February just from what you have posted.
He's going to be submitting his paperwork to the CAA mid Jan and I'm just hoping he' gets though!!
Then you are a poor judge of character. Nobody in their right mind should be hoping "he gets through". Perhaps you should tell "your friend" to tear up his fictitious logbook and set about rectifying the shortfall in his real experience. Whilst he is at it he might want to take a seriously introspective look at his character and behaviour and question whether he is the sort of person he thinks suitable for this profession. Unfortunetaly his ability to lie to himself may make this something of a moot point.
Hopefully your "friend" will be caught ( assuming this isn't something of a seasonal joke) and the information you have posted certainly should make that more likely.
Happy Xmas to you too.
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hi
Hi, whilst on the subject, what about if a pilot was to not log flights which were not flown, but to add an extra hour onto X country flights etc..? same offence in the eyes of the CAA? Less likely to be cougght out?
thanks guys
thanks guys
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Not long ago there was a case in the States of some clown who had more hours than required for the rating applied for, but ALSO had some falsified hours in his logbook. He attempted to defend himself on the basis that the falsified hours made no difference but he was crucified on the simple basis that he had made false entries in the logbook. I think the FAA revoked his license, with a two-year ban on even re-applying for it. He appealed and lost, when the case made the aviation news.
Not many people pay close attention to it but check out the bottom line on any application for a medical, a license or a rating. It means just what it says, as that fellow found out.
Your 'friend' should probably think about swapping that falsified logbook for another one with only correct entries. It would be a lot less trouble than leaving that paper trail out there to be discovered some day.
You ever notice how most logbooks are rather well-made? Pages bound in 'signatures' and, often, numbered, so that you cannot just snip a page out without that being obvious. Why might that be?
Crazy stuff happens: There was an airline pilot who overlooked a timely renewal of his medical and then decided to just carry on without it. Finally a flight deck inspection caught up with him after a couple of years, when, of course, all hell broke loose. You could probably sum up this sort of thing by saying that it must have seemed like a good idea at the time.
Not many people pay close attention to it but check out the bottom line on any application for a medical, a license or a rating. It means just what it says, as that fellow found out.
Your 'friend' should probably think about swapping that falsified logbook for another one with only correct entries. It would be a lot less trouble than leaving that paper trail out there to be discovered some day.
You ever notice how most logbooks are rather well-made? Pages bound in 'signatures' and, often, numbered, so that you cannot just snip a page out without that being obvious. Why might that be?
Crazy stuff happens: There was an airline pilot who overlooked a timely renewal of his medical and then decided to just carry on without it. Finally a flight deck inspection caught up with him after a couple of years, when, of course, all hell broke loose. You could probably sum up this sort of thing by saying that it must have seemed like a good idea at the time.
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Because danny, it is a legally required record of your actual experience. Unlike this website where almost anybody can write any nonsense and live out their fantasies (in a few cases), the logbook is a record of what a person has actually done. It is not something to be fraudulantly altered for the purpose of procuring a licence or employment. Neither is it a case of of not being caught out. You might be able to rob your local off licence (liquor store) without being caught out, but that does not make it a target, achievment or challenge for the vast majority of people.
How happy would you be if the surgeon operating on you or your family had sort of lied about his experience a bit. In the event of him damaging you or your family would you say "oh well there you go". I doubt it, and no doubt the subsequent claim would fall squarely on the shoulders of the "negligent" hospital who failed to ensure adequate checks were made. If you see my point !
This is a difficult profession to get in to, and the temptation to apply illegal shortcuts is certainly there. However that does not mitigate or justify criminal actions to achieve a deceptive result. Anyone that does take this route assumes the same risk as the robber in the off license.
How happy would you be if the surgeon operating on you or your family had sort of lied about his experience a bit. In the event of him damaging you or your family would you say "oh well there you go". I doubt it, and no doubt the subsequent claim would fall squarely on the shoulders of the "negligent" hospital who failed to ensure adequate checks were made. If you see my point !
This is a difficult profession to get in to, and the temptation to apply illegal shortcuts is certainly there. However that does not mitigate or justify criminal actions to achieve a deceptive result. Anyone that does take this route assumes the same risk as the robber in the off license.