£60,000 - £70,000 debt? WORTH IT?
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£60,000 - £70,000 debt? WORTH IT?
I am looking at starting ATPL training soon.
Just thought i would see what everyones opinion is of people like myself, putting myself into £60-£70,000 worth of debt.
I know its something i have always wanted to do, but i am trying to look at the realities of dealing with this kind of debt after I have trained.
I think some people go into this situation with tunnel vision.
Many thanks
James
Just thought i would see what everyones opinion is of people like myself, putting myself into £60-£70,000 worth of debt.
I know its something i have always wanted to do, but i am trying to look at the realities of dealing with this kind of debt after I have trained.
I think some people go into this situation with tunnel vision.
Many thanks
James
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Well there will be many on here that say that you cannot put a price on doing what you enjoy! But you can be a realist.
A hugh debt like that takes some repayment. Work out how you are going to repay it, if you imagine you will take 10 years to repay it and even if the bank do not charge any interest, thats nearly £600 per month out of your NET pay (i.e after tax). so its going to mean that you will not be able to get a loan or a mortgage, let alone afford one!
Then you have to account for the employment market, will you get a job immediately, will you have to pay for a type rating (£20,000), instructors rating, the cost of living, rent etc etc.
Then you might start on a salary of £20,000, thats about £1200 take home pay, you will have all your expenses to pay, rent bills, council tax etc. So it needs careful planning.
For those that go into flying for the money are living in a different world and yes I believe hundreds go into it with blinkers on! I've met Integrated Students at Oxford you have paid out £50,000 plus without ever having been up in a plane for a trial lesson!
But at the end of the day, if its what you really really want to do and you have done all your research properly there will be a handful of flight schools that will use all their charm and lies to grab that cash out of your hand and when you have completely finished they will completely forget about you!
I wish you luck!
A hugh debt like that takes some repayment. Work out how you are going to repay it, if you imagine you will take 10 years to repay it and even if the bank do not charge any interest, thats nearly £600 per month out of your NET pay (i.e after tax). so its going to mean that you will not be able to get a loan or a mortgage, let alone afford one!
Then you have to account for the employment market, will you get a job immediately, will you have to pay for a type rating (£20,000), instructors rating, the cost of living, rent etc etc.
Then you might start on a salary of £20,000, thats about £1200 take home pay, you will have all your expenses to pay, rent bills, council tax etc. So it needs careful planning.
For those that go into flying for the money are living in a different world and yes I believe hundreds go into it with blinkers on! I've met Integrated Students at Oxford you have paid out £50,000 plus without ever having been up in a plane for a trial lesson!
But at the end of the day, if its what you really really want to do and you have done all your research properly there will be a handful of flight schools that will use all their charm and lies to grab that cash out of your hand and when you have completely finished they will completely forget about you!
I wish you luck!
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It's only not worth it , if you fail to achieve what you set out to do!
If you suceed then of course it is worth it.. It's down to you!
As for the paying back the money.. small price to pay if you get where you want to be!
If you suceed then of course it is worth it.. It's down to you!
As for the paying back the money.. small price to pay if you get where you want to be!
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"I think some people go into this situation with tunnel vision"
I attended a seminar at Oxford recently. I happened to turn up on a day that a new (or several new) APP courses started. I even had the opportunity to sit in on a class full of integrated students. Never seen so many pubescent's in one class! (well not since school anyway). And that's the point I would now like to make....
At that age, you can't have too many responsibilities in life. so I seriously doubt it if most of them thought long and hard about the HSBC loan they took out. No wife, no kids, no mortgage...Not a worry in the world.
The other type of person who would readily take on such a debt must be someone who is older but has no responsibilities or someone who is older, has responsibilities but at the same time has the money to cope with everything - Translates: "Is Rich"
Now most people above the age of 25 have responsibilities that would mean them getting 60-70k in to debt AND BEING OUT OF WORK FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS is out of the question. I guess you are in this position?
Don't get me wrong, the £60-70k in-debtr's have an extremely high chance of finding employment after graduation due to Oxford's / FTE's links with the industry....and this might be a good enough reason for some people. But I for one, would prefer the modular route anyday.
I spent £5k on my PPL and will spend another £30k on the rest of my professional training. At least half of the time it takes me to complete my professional training I will have the opportunity to work. And so what if it takes me a year to find my first flying job, I can still go back to doing what I have been doing for the last 5 years earning a decent salary.
Just my two pence worth. Have a nice day
I attended a seminar at Oxford recently. I happened to turn up on a day that a new (or several new) APP courses started. I even had the opportunity to sit in on a class full of integrated students. Never seen so many pubescent's in one class! (well not since school anyway). And that's the point I would now like to make....
At that age, you can't have too many responsibilities in life. so I seriously doubt it if most of them thought long and hard about the HSBC loan they took out. No wife, no kids, no mortgage...Not a worry in the world.
The other type of person who would readily take on such a debt must be someone who is older but has no responsibilities or someone who is older, has responsibilities but at the same time has the money to cope with everything - Translates: "Is Rich"
Now most people above the age of 25 have responsibilities that would mean them getting 60-70k in to debt AND BEING OUT OF WORK FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS is out of the question. I guess you are in this position?
Don't get me wrong, the £60-70k in-debtr's have an extremely high chance of finding employment after graduation due to Oxford's / FTE's links with the industry....and this might be a good enough reason for some people. But I for one, would prefer the modular route anyday.
I spent £5k on my PPL and will spend another £30k on the rest of my professional training. At least half of the time it takes me to complete my professional training I will have the opportunity to work. And so what if it takes me a year to find my first flying job, I can still go back to doing what I have been doing for the last 5 years earning a decent salary.
Just my two pence worth. Have a nice day
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Superpilot - Spot On
Trust me - 6 months into your first job on a 320/737, it will very quickly feel ordinary apart from the 70k debt that will take YEARS to pay off. If you cant afford it outright go modular and get a job it might take 12 months longer but you will save a full 18 months (after tax) of your shiny new jet salary straight away.
I dont beleive all this BS about Mod/intgrtd if you are a knob and people feel that you cannot sit with another stranger for six hours at a time and interact you will not get a job regardsless of how you got your license.
70k is a fortune, combine that with no increasing house price windfalls anymore and you are screwed.
Dont do it, fly in the US a bit - Enjoy!!
Trust me - 6 months into your first job on a 320/737, it will very quickly feel ordinary apart from the 70k debt that will take YEARS to pay off. If you cant afford it outright go modular and get a job it might take 12 months longer but you will save a full 18 months (after tax) of your shiny new jet salary straight away.
I dont beleive all this BS about Mod/intgrtd if you are a knob and people feel that you cannot sit with another stranger for six hours at a time and interact you will not get a job regardsless of how you got your license.
70k is a fortune, combine that with no increasing house price windfalls anymore and you are screwed.
Dont do it, fly in the US a bit - Enjoy!!
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Hello people. some very good point, I really appreciate them thanks.
I agree about this modular/intergrated debate.
I have gone through the selection at Oxford, and they are a very professional school and have a good reputation. But the thing that is really becoming a problem is funding £71,000 for the 18 month course, then an extra £20k type rating thats £91,000! ( if not employed by BA)
So I agree with superpilot, I have looked at stapleford, in essex and they offer excellent training there. And to be qualified its around £35,000. I am also looking add to this around £27,000 for B737 TR, and 100 line experience with astraeus.
I am of the opinion that this would benefit me in getting a job. (correct me if i am wrong)
With everything else added it looks as though it will cost around £65,000
Yes I am a 25 year old earning £25,000 a year, and feel i need to forefill my ambition of becoming a pilot.
I am feeling pressured slightly as I feel the longer i leave it the hard it will be to become employed, is this true?
Any other opinions would be great.
I agree about this modular/intergrated debate.
I have gone through the selection at Oxford, and they are a very professional school and have a good reputation. But the thing that is really becoming a problem is funding £71,000 for the 18 month course, then an extra £20k type rating thats £91,000! ( if not employed by BA)
So I agree with superpilot, I have looked at stapleford, in essex and they offer excellent training there. And to be qualified its around £35,000. I am also looking add to this around £27,000 for B737 TR, and 100 line experience with astraeus.
I am of the opinion that this would benefit me in getting a job. (correct me if i am wrong)
With everything else added it looks as though it will cost around £65,000
Yes I am a 25 year old earning £25,000 a year, and feel i need to forefill my ambition of becoming a pilot.
I am feeling pressured slightly as I feel the longer i leave it the hard it will be to become employed, is this true?
Any other opinions would be great.
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My advice to anyone who has decided to take the plunge is... Look for the best training you can afford, not the cheapest! If you make a bad decision, it will cost you thousands! Choose somewhere that has got a great reputation (from airline pilots not company sales staff!) Ex-students can tell you alot but remember, most have only been to the one school so the information is going to be a little one sided.
No its crap! Im a similar age to yourself. All my flying mates are older than me and were before they got jobs.
Dont feel pressured into this at all, its going to affect the rest of your life, if you dont get a job after you finish then what... How are you going to pay for your car, nights out, bills, house and most expensive of all...the girlfriend(s)?! Trust me, at this age its a big sacrifice!
Good luck with your training. Choose wisely and try not to pay for everything upfront!
am feeling pressured slightly as I feel the longer i leave it the hard it will be to become employed, is this true?
Dont feel pressured into this at all, its going to affect the rest of your life, if you dont get a job after you finish then what... How are you going to pay for your car, nights out, bills, house and most expensive of all...the girlfriend(s)?! Trust me, at this age its a big sacrifice!
Good luck with your training. Choose wisely and try not to pay for everything upfront!
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Lots of very valid points here indeed and it must be an extremely difficult choice right now especially given that 'paying for your own type-rating' seems to becoming the norm these days.
Oxford do have a very good reputation for training and many airlines do contact them to invite their best graduates for selection, including the airline I work for! BUT you have to be one of those lucky ones who Oxford think are the best I guess.
Just try and choose a school with a good reputation.
Modular route is good if you have a wel paid job before starting your training and enables you to keep working when your training is being done. However it's all about continuity of training for many airlines so don't take about 5 years to complete it all.
The ATP scheme through CTC has to be a good option, and the cheaper Modular route might enable you to plan and have funds available for this scheme. I know of many people who have gone through CTC who got that first job quickly enough with a decent company and it saves all the hassle of sending countless numbers of CV's off for what could be a good few years.
Lastly, when you have finished your training and if you can afford to do so, then get a job working in the office for an airline!!!! Your foot is in the door etc so try and choose one that recruits low-hour pilots.
Other than that, enjoy your training and try make as many contacts as possible!
Oxford do have a very good reputation for training and many airlines do contact them to invite their best graduates for selection, including the airline I work for! BUT you have to be one of those lucky ones who Oxford think are the best I guess.
Just try and choose a school with a good reputation.
Modular route is good if you have a wel paid job before starting your training and enables you to keep working when your training is being done. However it's all about continuity of training for many airlines so don't take about 5 years to complete it all.
The ATP scheme through CTC has to be a good option, and the cheaper Modular route might enable you to plan and have funds available for this scheme. I know of many people who have gone through CTC who got that first job quickly enough with a decent company and it saves all the hassle of sending countless numbers of CV's off for what could be a good few years.
Lastly, when you have finished your training and if you can afford to do so, then get a job working in the office for an airline!!!! Your foot is in the door etc so try and choose one that recruits low-hour pilots.
Other than that, enjoy your training and try make as many contacts as possible!
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It's a no brainer - that amount of debt for a lifetime career that's the envy of all your mates!
The initial investment seems a lot but if you offset it against potential earnings then that cost is minimal. I got the CTC thing when I was done training and started on a proper salary of about 42k. If you don't get that even my tprop mates started in the high 20's. And one of my other mates put it quite bluntly - how comfy are you now in terms of earnings, this is probably the least money you'll earn for the rest of your life!' Yippee.
Spend it!
The initial investment seems a lot but if you offset it against potential earnings then that cost is minimal. I got the CTC thing when I was done training and started on a proper salary of about 42k. If you don't get that even my tprop mates started in the high 20's. And one of my other mates put it quite bluntly - how comfy are you now in terms of earnings, this is probably the least money you'll earn for the rest of your life!' Yippee.
Spend it!
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Super - don't know who's fleecing you for 12k per year at the normal rate. Some of my dutch mates are paying that amount to get their loans paid off asap! Plus the 42k is until you are unfrozen, a year and a half later with a little thawing and it'll be 50k+.
Then you go to a flag carrier or the middle east and earn even more. I'm not the exception by any means - have loads of friends and colleagues in the same boat, and it's the most exciting time for quite a while to be getting in to aviation (far better than when I came in!). By the looks of things there will be a big shortage of pilots just over the hill too, it's coming very soon. Spend your money well and don't skimp, give yourself the best chance possible, kick a55 in your training and get straight onto a jet.
Then you go to a flag carrier or the middle east and earn even more. I'm not the exception by any means - have loads of friends and colleagues in the same boat, and it's the most exciting time for quite a while to be getting in to aviation (far better than when I came in!). By the looks of things there will be a big shortage of pilots just over the hill too, it's coming very soon. Spend your money well and don't skimp, give yourself the best chance possible, kick a55 in your training and get straight onto a jet.
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At the end of the day you should go with your guy instinct - if your not sure about this go and try some office jobs etc and see just how grim it really is!
I have worked in many different industries in the last few years and from my point of view it’s a depressing business sitting in meetings or whatever trying desperately to look interested when inside you’re screaming at the top of your voice "let me out!"
If you have been bitten by the bug, it won't fade, you will just HAVE to do it - and from that you will find a way. BUT do plan the finances very carefully because (and I speak from some experience here) debt that is out of control quickly takes over your life and that is not good if your trying to doing exams, job hunt or whatever.
My advice - watch the office, its scarily real to life!
I have worked in many different industries in the last few years and from my point of view it’s a depressing business sitting in meetings or whatever trying desperately to look interested when inside you’re screaming at the top of your voice "let me out!"
If you have been bitten by the bug, it won't fade, you will just HAVE to do it - and from that you will find a way. BUT do plan the finances very carefully because (and I speak from some experience here) debt that is out of control quickly takes over your life and that is not good if your trying to doing exams, job hunt or whatever.
My advice - watch the office, its scarily real to life!
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".......and get straight onto a jet."
Oh its sounds so simple!!!!!!
Nb; remember all replies on this site are from Pilots or wannabe pilots therefore you are probably not getting a true reflection of the whole picture, consider our views with people outside aviation!
Oh its sounds so simple!!!!!!
Nb; remember all replies on this site are from Pilots or wannabe pilots therefore you are probably not getting a true reflection of the whole picture, consider our views with people outside aviation!
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It's a no brainer - that amount of debt for a lifetime career that's the envy of all your mates!
There are enough opportunities in life to aquire debts (mortgage, kids, etc) so don't handicap yourself by buying the BS of over-zealous wannabes and training organisations.
Get yourself a long term plan to achieve your goals REALISTICALLY.
Try other options if you cannot wait - RAF & sponsorship primarily. Please do not get into debt, it leads to more debt and desperation.
I am not in debt by the way (did it in my thirties), but have seen desperate people doing desperate things.
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Dr Eckener,
Does it really matter if your mates will be earning loads more? Most people I know earn two to three times my salary, but don't seem to enjoy their jobs much at all.
Yes, the 70K would be a problem, but for many of us mere mortals, an airline career would be the first proper salary we ever earn (even at the ripe old age of 30!). It is certainly impossible for me to save even half that in my current career, so it has become a catch-22 situation: without an airline (or similar paying) career I cannot afford to undertake training.
I doubt many people at all choose this career for the salary it offers, but I am surprised by how many people also seem to claim the salary is insufficient to justify it.
Does it really matter if your mates will be earning loads more? Most people I know earn two to three times my salary, but don't seem to enjoy their jobs much at all.
Yes, the 70K would be a problem, but for many of us mere mortals, an airline career would be the first proper salary we ever earn (even at the ripe old age of 30!). It is certainly impossible for me to save even half that in my current career, so it has become a catch-22 situation: without an airline (or similar paying) career I cannot afford to undertake training.
I doubt many people at all choose this career for the salary it offers, but I am surprised by how many people also seem to claim the salary is insufficient to justify it.
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Sorry to ask but am I missing something here?
Ok, £65k to pay for a career is a lot money, and not many people have that sort of money lying around to do it with out getting into debt! but you only need to pay that sort of money if you go for an intergrated course, do it modular or any other way and the real cost is nearer £35K, that is for your flying time, exams fees etc. Regardless, you are getting something out of it - the chance to be able, if you are good enough, work hard and possibly know the right people to get a job in the RH seat of a plane you want to fly. It's that simple.
Yes the pay might not be great to start, yes your friends may be earning more money than you, yes if you can't afford it you will be in debt for a long time but those that do it, do you think they really care about all this?
For those people that actually care their friends earn more money than them and they might be in debt for a long time, possibly aren't doing this for the right reasons.
I am possibly in a slightly more envious position than most, that due to hard work, and a whole lot of luck in the property market I can actually afford to do this off my own back and not having to worry about paying back huge sums of money at the end, but I don't believe that my motives for wanting to do this are any differnet than anyone else on this website and I am sure that have ever much I want this someone will always be more passionate and decidated than me, but that is just life.
The one thing I have learnt from reading Pprune over the last year, is that no 2 people are the same and everyone needs to make their decision based on there own circumstances, financial situation and motives for wanting to be a pilot.
If you believe that spending £70k on an intergrated course will give you the best chance of getting where you want to go, then that's up to you. Make your decision, live by it and get on with life, it's that simple.. and quite honestly no different to anything else that happens in the real world. It just amazes me that so many people on here think that training to be a pilot is any different to getting any other job. If you want a proffesional job then you will have to pay for it. It costs £35k+ to be a lawyer, £40k+ to be a doctor, £30k to be an accounant.. So being a pilot is no different!
So getting back to my orginal point, what have I missed and why all the fuss?
Ok, £65k to pay for a career is a lot money, and not many people have that sort of money lying around to do it with out getting into debt! but you only need to pay that sort of money if you go for an intergrated course, do it modular or any other way and the real cost is nearer £35K, that is for your flying time, exams fees etc. Regardless, you are getting something out of it - the chance to be able, if you are good enough, work hard and possibly know the right people to get a job in the RH seat of a plane you want to fly. It's that simple.
Yes the pay might not be great to start, yes your friends may be earning more money than you, yes if you can't afford it you will be in debt for a long time but those that do it, do you think they really care about all this?
For those people that actually care their friends earn more money than them and they might be in debt for a long time, possibly aren't doing this for the right reasons.
I am possibly in a slightly more envious position than most, that due to hard work, and a whole lot of luck in the property market I can actually afford to do this off my own back and not having to worry about paying back huge sums of money at the end, but I don't believe that my motives for wanting to do this are any differnet than anyone else on this website and I am sure that have ever much I want this someone will always be more passionate and decidated than me, but that is just life.
The one thing I have learnt from reading Pprune over the last year, is that no 2 people are the same and everyone needs to make their decision based on there own circumstances, financial situation and motives for wanting to be a pilot.
If you believe that spending £70k on an intergrated course will give you the best chance of getting where you want to go, then that's up to you. Make your decision, live by it and get on with life, it's that simple.. and quite honestly no different to anything else that happens in the real world. It just amazes me that so many people on here think that training to be a pilot is any different to getting any other job. If you want a proffesional job then you will have to pay for it. It costs £35k+ to be a lawyer, £40k+ to be a doctor, £30k to be an accounant.. So being a pilot is no different!
So getting back to my orginal point, what have I missed and why all the fuss?
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I think there are two things you might be missing, although one is subjective.
First, by many accounts it is more time consuming going modular and often a lot more expensive than the £35,000 usually quoted. With Integrated coming in at £61,000 and all nicely packaged to stay current and continuous, there may be an advantage there - it takes a lot of the hard administrative work out of getting a fATPL (rightly or wrongly).
Second (and subjective); it is often said that knowing people in the industry will give you a big step ahead in getting "that job". By proxy, the big integrated schools seem to somewhat akin to that the old family friend or great Uncle who knows the head of recruitment at BA. The airline come to them and they put names forward. When the competition is all about getting your CV to the top of the pile, I can't help feel integrated offers that, whereas modular falls short.
Regardless, of whether you are paying £35,000 or £60,000, if you can't get a job at the end of it you are utterly screwed. If I felt the extra £20-30K was going to secure me the job (a backhander you might call it), then that would swing it for me.
As a disclaimer, I am in no way naturally biased one way or the other, and broadly agree that the best way to the left-seat of a 747 should be via a decade or two spent in bug smashers and turbo-props. The reality just doesn't seem to match that though, and while the evidence to support Oxford's claims of success are a little sketchy, I fail to see any evidence to the contrary, nor any competitors even being in a position to make similar claims.
The difference between flying and the lawyer/doctor scenario, is it seems more likely that a law firm or surgery awaits you at the end of the degree. In aviation on the other hand, you complete a course costing as much as twice the normal fee for a degree and come out with nothing more than a pilots licence. A BA/BSc will at least open doors in all kinds of sectors. A fATPL does not grant that.
First, by many accounts it is more time consuming going modular and often a lot more expensive than the £35,000 usually quoted. With Integrated coming in at £61,000 and all nicely packaged to stay current and continuous, there may be an advantage there - it takes a lot of the hard administrative work out of getting a fATPL (rightly or wrongly).
Second (and subjective); it is often said that knowing people in the industry will give you a big step ahead in getting "that job". By proxy, the big integrated schools seem to somewhat akin to that the old family friend or great Uncle who knows the head of recruitment at BA. The airline come to them and they put names forward. When the competition is all about getting your CV to the top of the pile, I can't help feel integrated offers that, whereas modular falls short.
Regardless, of whether you are paying £35,000 or £60,000, if you can't get a job at the end of it you are utterly screwed. If I felt the extra £20-30K was going to secure me the job (a backhander you might call it), then that would swing it for me.
As a disclaimer, I am in no way naturally biased one way or the other, and broadly agree that the best way to the left-seat of a 747 should be via a decade or two spent in bug smashers and turbo-props. The reality just doesn't seem to match that though, and while the evidence to support Oxford's claims of success are a little sketchy, I fail to see any evidence to the contrary, nor any competitors even being in a position to make similar claims.
The difference between flying and the lawyer/doctor scenario, is it seems more likely that a law firm or surgery awaits you at the end of the degree. In aviation on the other hand, you complete a course costing as much as twice the normal fee for a degree and come out with nothing more than a pilots licence. A BA/BSc will at least open doors in all kinds of sectors. A fATPL does not grant that.
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I agree DaveM.
Im about to start at Oxford on the APP, but all Id say is that there is no right/wrong answer to this never ending debate.
Integrated vs Modular debates have, and will always appear on PPRuNe. As somebody rightly said above, no two PPRuNer's are the same, and so consequently there are a huge range of opinions on the matter, which will obviously clash at some point.
You have to consider things such as:
Is this what you really want?
Cost?
Time taken?
Location?
Family?
FTO Reputation and ground school results
Links with airlines
Talk to people that have gone there
Do not base your opinion on whether to go to a certain FTO or not, and spend 75K based on what you read on here. If that where the case I doubt anybody would want to become a pilot!
At the end of the day, its you who has to decide. Nodody on here can know you better than what you know yourself. Take each of the above factors and really think about them before making a decision.
Im about to start at Oxford on the APP, but all Id say is that there is no right/wrong answer to this never ending debate.
Integrated vs Modular debates have, and will always appear on PPRuNe. As somebody rightly said above, no two PPRuNer's are the same, and so consequently there are a huge range of opinions on the matter, which will obviously clash at some point.
You have to consider things such as:
Is this what you really want?
Cost?
Time taken?
Location?
Family?
FTO Reputation and ground school results
Links with airlines
Talk to people that have gone there
Do not base your opinion on whether to go to a certain FTO or not, and spend 75K based on what you read on here. If that where the case I doubt anybody would want to become a pilot!
At the end of the day, its you who has to decide. Nodody on here can know you better than what you know yourself. Take each of the above factors and really think about them before making a decision.