Money - the great sinking feeling
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Money - the great sinking feeling
Although I've been trying to keep my thoughts to myself, the time has come for me to let rip and vent some frustrations. Be warned, it involves money.
Here I am with my PPL and enough hours to start continuing to frozen level. I'm still young enough and I've got a good education etc. Most importantly, when I'm in the air (sometimes with a girlfriend doing indecent acts while I'm on finals into Las Vegas), I have such a grin and feeling of joy that all my worries disappear. Even Bob Marley would have been impressed with this level of elevation.
We all presumably share this unique and amazing feeling each time we walk around our bashed up little Cessnas or Warriors, sucking on the stall warner and wiggling the rudder. But one thing that I am keen to learn more about is how we all feel about the whopping impact our poor sad-looking credit cards take when we land the plane, walk back into the club and, after filling in our logbooks, get the invoice from a (usually) pretty little dame behind the counter. Everybody knows how much of a financial burden this is for anybody undertaking the training (even the rich dads supporting some of the more fortunate guys out there will feel the pinch). But I wanted to express the feelings I have about this and, more importantly, hear how everybody else feels.
I should count myself lucky. I only learnt to fly because the RAF let me. I am indebted to their scholarship because it was the only way that I was able to progress to the PPL aged 17. I saved for a while and went hours-building in California. It was undoubtedly one of the best times of my life. I qualified a few years ago but the money situation hasn't changed since.
After three years of university studying politics (cracking degree, hard work but not very aviation-related), I now have the usual debt issues confronting most graduates. As it stands, there's £5000 as a bank loan, a relatively small £3000 student loan and over £3000 on plastic. Oh, and the rent and council tax I share with my girlfriend is £830 per month. I work in a bank and earn £15,500 a year. Not terrible but I'm not exactly a high roller on that salary. And I live frugally. I don't splash out on stuff as my main priority is trying to hack away at some of the existing debt.
When I think of how I'm going to get the extra £20k to finish off my writtens and get the CPL/IR and FI(R) out of the way, I feel my buttocks suck up the chair and my heart sinks to lower than my shrunken balls. A true 'tail between your legs' feeling.
I told a friend and instructor this and his response was "well, count yourself lucky mate. I left the police on £35k a year, with a mortgage and a wife to learn to fly." His point was that he jacked in a good job paying well with the world's best pension to get his ATPL. Now, two years down the line, he's on just under £15k flying trial lessons for people. Although he wants to move on to big planes eventually, he loves instructing but also points to the frustrations of the regular morons he has complaining that they couldn't fly because of silly things such as a 200ft cloud base and bolts of lightning flying through the air.
That was his perspective. He felt that it was worse for him because, even though the financial burden may have been slightly less, he had left a good job and that must have taken a lot of courage. I am currently in a job which I hate. So, it makes sense to leave. But I already have enough debt to be concerned. Why should I put myself through even more of this? The now-cliche answer is "because you love flying."
Most reactions would probably be "you just have to do it because otherwise you'll regret it forever and forever" and "there is no logic in choosing to fly for a living." These are lovely and inspiring words but my point is, how does it actually feel to have all this debt knowing that another 9/11 could happen? Knowing that another airline will make you pay for your type-rating. Knowing that you could fail your medical. The list continues...
Guys and girls, let me know what your financial life is like. Tell me how you're feeling and tell me if what I've written here makes sense to you.
Here I am with my PPL and enough hours to start continuing to frozen level. I'm still young enough and I've got a good education etc. Most importantly, when I'm in the air (sometimes with a girlfriend doing indecent acts while I'm on finals into Las Vegas), I have such a grin and feeling of joy that all my worries disappear. Even Bob Marley would have been impressed with this level of elevation.
We all presumably share this unique and amazing feeling each time we walk around our bashed up little Cessnas or Warriors, sucking on the stall warner and wiggling the rudder. But one thing that I am keen to learn more about is how we all feel about the whopping impact our poor sad-looking credit cards take when we land the plane, walk back into the club and, after filling in our logbooks, get the invoice from a (usually) pretty little dame behind the counter. Everybody knows how much of a financial burden this is for anybody undertaking the training (even the rich dads supporting some of the more fortunate guys out there will feel the pinch). But I wanted to express the feelings I have about this and, more importantly, hear how everybody else feels.
I should count myself lucky. I only learnt to fly because the RAF let me. I am indebted to their scholarship because it was the only way that I was able to progress to the PPL aged 17. I saved for a while and went hours-building in California. It was undoubtedly one of the best times of my life. I qualified a few years ago but the money situation hasn't changed since.
After three years of university studying politics (cracking degree, hard work but not very aviation-related), I now have the usual debt issues confronting most graduates. As it stands, there's £5000 as a bank loan, a relatively small £3000 student loan and over £3000 on plastic. Oh, and the rent and council tax I share with my girlfriend is £830 per month. I work in a bank and earn £15,500 a year. Not terrible but I'm not exactly a high roller on that salary. And I live frugally. I don't splash out on stuff as my main priority is trying to hack away at some of the existing debt.
When I think of how I'm going to get the extra £20k to finish off my writtens and get the CPL/IR and FI(R) out of the way, I feel my buttocks suck up the chair and my heart sinks to lower than my shrunken balls. A true 'tail between your legs' feeling.
I told a friend and instructor this and his response was "well, count yourself lucky mate. I left the police on £35k a year, with a mortgage and a wife to learn to fly." His point was that he jacked in a good job paying well with the world's best pension to get his ATPL. Now, two years down the line, he's on just under £15k flying trial lessons for people. Although he wants to move on to big planes eventually, he loves instructing but also points to the frustrations of the regular morons he has complaining that they couldn't fly because of silly things such as a 200ft cloud base and bolts of lightning flying through the air.
That was his perspective. He felt that it was worse for him because, even though the financial burden may have been slightly less, he had left a good job and that must have taken a lot of courage. I am currently in a job which I hate. So, it makes sense to leave. But I already have enough debt to be concerned. Why should I put myself through even more of this? The now-cliche answer is "because you love flying."
Most reactions would probably be "you just have to do it because otherwise you'll regret it forever and forever" and "there is no logic in choosing to fly for a living." These are lovely and inspiring words but my point is, how does it actually feel to have all this debt knowing that another 9/11 could happen? Knowing that another airline will make you pay for your type-rating. Knowing that you could fail your medical. The list continues...
Guys and girls, let me know what your financial life is like. Tell me how you're feeling and tell me if what I've written here makes sense to you.
will be interesting to view the opinions
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Excellent post CR,
My own story is that I got my FAA PPL back in 92 whilst still in the army, which I left in 94, with a hefty sum of redundancy cash. I really wanted to go commercial but ummed and ahhed over the tales of doom and gloom in the industry far too much and in the end didn't do it - and I have regretted it ever since.
One divorce induced financial disaster, a workplace accident and six years of non-flying later I find myself back in the position of being able to go for it, due mainly to some lucky breaks in the property market. So we've decided to up sticks, sell two properties (and with a bit of prudent jiggery-pokery, Gordon won't see a bloody penny of it) and move to the SE where the missus has family. And I, at 43 years of age (or 44 when I start) am going for the ful CPL/IR and FI ratings.
I've read, with intense interest, the threads on Age and realise the risks I'm taking but as my only realistic goal is to get into instructing I figure it's worth it - rather than be here in 10 - 15 years time with the same regrets. And I'm hoping that if I do this my son will see what's up for grabs and follow me (he's 15 now and PPL training). Like many others, I have professional qualifications and experience to fall back on, which I am also lucky enough to be able to actually expand upon during training.
The botom line is - if you have a dream and you have a realistic chance of achieving it within acceptable risks you have to go for it - one crack we get and it's not a dress rehearsal.
Good luck to anyone willing to go for it.
2close
My own story is that I got my FAA PPL back in 92 whilst still in the army, which I left in 94, with a hefty sum of redundancy cash. I really wanted to go commercial but ummed and ahhed over the tales of doom and gloom in the industry far too much and in the end didn't do it - and I have regretted it ever since.
One divorce induced financial disaster, a workplace accident and six years of non-flying later I find myself back in the position of being able to go for it, due mainly to some lucky breaks in the property market. So we've decided to up sticks, sell two properties (and with a bit of prudent jiggery-pokery, Gordon won't see a bloody penny of it) and move to the SE where the missus has family. And I, at 43 years of age (or 44 when I start) am going for the ful CPL/IR and FI ratings.
I've read, with intense interest, the threads on Age and realise the risks I'm taking but as my only realistic goal is to get into instructing I figure it's worth it - rather than be here in 10 - 15 years time with the same regrets. And I'm hoping that if I do this my son will see what's up for grabs and follow me (he's 15 now and PPL training). Like many others, I have professional qualifications and experience to fall back on, which I am also lucky enough to be able to actually expand upon during training.
The botom line is - if you have a dream and you have a realistic chance of achieving it within acceptable risks you have to go for it - one crack we get and it's not a dress rehearsal.
Good luck to anyone willing to go for it.
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Cap Rap,
Well you do sound like you are in a "position" re Debt.
First thing I'd be keen on regardless of flying is getting rid of those nasty red figures. You will find it very liberating (I can still remember when I called the Students Loans guys up and wish them all the best for the future!!! knowing the buggers would never be able to hock another arbitrary charge).
Seriously mate, have you thought of leaving your job and thinking outside the square a little? I know it must be difficult with a g/friend...You say you hate the job, so find something else. I have a few mates down working in London earning high twenties on building sites. Another friend offered work in Bournemouth, £800 a week. You work like crazy, nice and physical but its only gotta be done once!
I'd really recommend you get those debts cleared, then go from there...
When you get further on into the flying, you will need the help of a bank....a demonstrable record of having smashed through a few financial issues will be music to their ears.
Best of luck....And hope things turn out well for you.
LF
Well you do sound like you are in a "position" re Debt.
First thing I'd be keen on regardless of flying is getting rid of those nasty red figures. You will find it very liberating (I can still remember when I called the Students Loans guys up and wish them all the best for the future!!! knowing the buggers would never be able to hock another arbitrary charge).
Seriously mate, have you thought of leaving your job and thinking outside the square a little? I know it must be difficult with a g/friend...You say you hate the job, so find something else. I have a few mates down working in London earning high twenties on building sites. Another friend offered work in Bournemouth, £800 a week. You work like crazy, nice and physical but its only gotta be done once!
I'd really recommend you get those debts cleared, then go from there...
When you get further on into the flying, you will need the help of a bank....a demonstrable record of having smashed through a few financial issues will be music to their ears.
Best of luck....And hope things turn out well for you.
LF
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I suppose it is good that you have a healthy attitude towards debt, but don't let it be a millstone around your neck preventing you from pursuing your favoured career. Lee Frost gives some good advice. You're still relatively young, and believe it or not, you still have relatively small debts. You have plenty of time to reduce them significantly if they worry you so much.
I began my training in April 2001 on the UK's daftest-priced (sorry, premier) integrated course. 5 months later and the already struggling aviation industry was hit by a horrible and unique event. Nobody knew what the future would hold, but we all knew it would be grim. However, it never occured to any of us to jack it in and do something else.
2 years on from completing the IR, I'm still not much further forward. I have a part-time flying position in a Cessna 150, and a part-time job at the local airport. I began my training with pretty hefty credit card debts (about £12K), and finished with a £50K loan and about £18K of credit card debts. I used to earn a pretty poor wage, £17K, and I'm now earning even less.
However, I have never been happier. Yes, day to day life is fairly difficult financially, but I am closer every day to the job that I want. Things are still difficult in the industry, but they are improving all the time. I suppose in some senses I am fortunate in that my flying career started at a time when the industry has never been in worse shape, so for me, things will only ever get better.
By nature, I am one of life's optimists, a happy-go-lucky kind of guy (ignore the kind of rubbish my pprune ID spouts off on here from time to time), so I was happy to take the risk. I don't regret it for one minute, but it hasn't been easy. At best my wife and I earn about £2K a month, and at worst it is £1400. Somehow we still get by, and when that airline job finally comes my way, for us it will be like winning the lottery.
Your debt will only be a concern when you are having to manage on a low monthly income, probably just after training. Plan ahead for that time. You may or may not (most likely not) find yourself in a flying position very quickly, but when you do, the debts will reduce surprisingly quickly. Don't let the hard times be a barrier to the good times ahead.
I began my training in April 2001 on the UK's daftest-priced (sorry, premier) integrated course. 5 months later and the already struggling aviation industry was hit by a horrible and unique event. Nobody knew what the future would hold, but we all knew it would be grim. However, it never occured to any of us to jack it in and do something else.
2 years on from completing the IR, I'm still not much further forward. I have a part-time flying position in a Cessna 150, and a part-time job at the local airport. I began my training with pretty hefty credit card debts (about £12K), and finished with a £50K loan and about £18K of credit card debts. I used to earn a pretty poor wage, £17K, and I'm now earning even less.
However, I have never been happier. Yes, day to day life is fairly difficult financially, but I am closer every day to the job that I want. Things are still difficult in the industry, but they are improving all the time. I suppose in some senses I am fortunate in that my flying career started at a time when the industry has never been in worse shape, so for me, things will only ever get better.
By nature, I am one of life's optimists, a happy-go-lucky kind of guy (ignore the kind of rubbish my pprune ID spouts off on here from time to time), so I was happy to take the risk. I don't regret it for one minute, but it hasn't been easy. At best my wife and I earn about £2K a month, and at worst it is £1400. Somehow we still get by, and when that airline job finally comes my way, for us it will be like winning the lottery.
Your debt will only be a concern when you are having to manage on a low monthly income, probably just after training. Plan ahead for that time. You may or may not (most likely not) find yourself in a flying position very quickly, but when you do, the debts will reduce surprisingly quickly. Don't let the hard times be a barrier to the good times ahead.
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Interesting thread. I've just passed the Class 1 medical and am readying to do the PPL(H), with a view to doing the CPL(H) at HAI next year.
Financially, I'm lucky enough to be quite well off - I've raked together £35k to do the PPL/CPL (still need some more yet), I actially own my house, which is another £170k's worth I guess and I get paid over £50k pa. I'm single, no dependents (hence the cash)
............. and yet I'm still in a bit of a quandry about whether to try for the whole hog. I'm desperate to change career as the current one is killing me with boredom. BUT, and here's the big BUT, although having the money in place is a major advantage, blowing the whole lot on qualifying as a CPL and then not getting a job is a major worry.
Most people would probably say 'stop messing about and go for it' but these nasty 'what if ?' thoughts cross my mind - what if I went and bought a pub, what if I trained as something else etc, etc. Sometimes having the cash can be an even bigger gamble than starting with a mountain of debt, though on balance, I guess the worst that can happen to me is to blow all those savings on some great times.
Anyhow, good luck whatever you choose.
Financially, I'm lucky enough to be quite well off - I've raked together £35k to do the PPL/CPL (still need some more yet), I actially own my house, which is another £170k's worth I guess and I get paid over £50k pa. I'm single, no dependents (hence the cash)
............. and yet I'm still in a bit of a quandry about whether to try for the whole hog. I'm desperate to change career as the current one is killing me with boredom. BUT, and here's the big BUT, although having the money in place is a major advantage, blowing the whole lot on qualifying as a CPL and then not getting a job is a major worry.
Most people would probably say 'stop messing about and go for it' but these nasty 'what if ?' thoughts cross my mind - what if I went and bought a pub, what if I trained as something else etc, etc. Sometimes having the cash can be an even bigger gamble than starting with a mountain of debt, though on balance, I guess the worst that can happen to me is to blow all those savings on some great times.
Anyhow, good luck whatever you choose.
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Banjo George,
I can see exactly where you're coming from. Financially, you are extremely fortunate and in a priviledged position to be able to complete your professional training without ending up owing money. My feeling is that £35k is £35k, regardless of whether you have worked hard over years to save it or if you have been forced to borrow it.
Everybody has those 'what if' moments and, I'm guessing, to the same magnitude. The difference for you is that you could survive very comfortably even if it took a couple of years of poorly-paid instructing.
The point for you BG is that, like the rest of us, you will be reducing your comfort-zone drastically. However, at least you still have the luxury of owning a property and, thus, a massive financial safety net per se.
We all have the 'what ifs' and there is nothing you can do to get rid of those demons. But I reckon that you'll only grasp that dream if you just go for it and don't look back. As 2 Close said above, "one crack we get and it's not a dress rehearsal".
Good luck in whatever you do mate
I can see exactly where you're coming from. Financially, you are extremely fortunate and in a priviledged position to be able to complete your professional training without ending up owing money. My feeling is that £35k is £35k, regardless of whether you have worked hard over years to save it or if you have been forced to borrow it.
Everybody has those 'what if' moments and, I'm guessing, to the same magnitude. The difference for you is that you could survive very comfortably even if it took a couple of years of poorly-paid instructing.
The point for you BG is that, like the rest of us, you will be reducing your comfort-zone drastically. However, at least you still have the luxury of owning a property and, thus, a massive financial safety net per se.
We all have the 'what ifs' and there is nothing you can do to get rid of those demons. But I reckon that you'll only grasp that dream if you just go for it and don't look back. As 2 Close said above, "one crack we get and it's not a dress rehearsal".
Good luck in whatever you do mate
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I see where BG is coming from too. The richer and older you get, the more that you see:
1. Debt being a bad thing,
2. The comfort zone thing becomes important.
The gradual erosion of T & Cs in the airline industry also doesn't endear itself to you either.
You don't want to have the 'I wish I had done that when I had the chance' moment on the death bed, but you also don't want the 'What was I thinking' moment either.
For me, I've written off the money for the training. I put it all in one account, and pretend it isn't there, and it's not mine. I've got another account for my savings - although that doesn't look very healthy at the moment.
1. Debt being a bad thing,
2. The comfort zone thing becomes important.
The gradual erosion of T & Cs in the airline industry also doesn't endear itself to you either.
You don't want to have the 'I wish I had done that when I had the chance' moment on the death bed, but you also don't want the 'What was I thinking' moment either.
For me, I've written off the money for the training. I put it all in one account, and pretend it isn't there, and it's not mine. I've got another account for my savings - although that doesn't look very healthy at the moment.
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no sponsor, I think you've got it right when you say you've written off the training money so to speak. It's one way to weigh up your feelings about risk - because it is a huge risk with no predictable outcome. Just take a look at the MYT and Ryanair threads running at present. The industry is extremely hard on pilots now - and that's for people with thousands of hours.
Not a downer, just reality.
Not a downer, just reality.
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Ah, but of those who are still taking the plunge and getting into horrendous debt, what proportion succeed and realise their dreams?
This must surely be the benchmark in deciding if it is all worth it.
Captain Ratpup
This must surely be the benchmark in deciding if it is all worth it.
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Silverknapper
Well, what can I add - dilemma if you do, dilemma if you don't. They're both valid viewpoints.
Personally, it's my opinion that if you look hard enough, one can see drawbacks and reasons for NOT doing something in almost any aspect of life. If you concentrate on the drawbacks all the time, life would be pretty dull and none of us would ever chance anything.
Silverknapper makes a valid point - 'if you have doubts, perhaps there's the answer'. I think it's possible to have major doubts, but still choose to go ahead, having weighed up the risks and accepted them.
For starters, it's possible to reduce or eradicate many of those risks, simply by getting advice off forums like this. Since I started on PPRUNE, I have changed opinions and ideas 3 or 4 times - all beneficial as well I might add eg getting the class 1 medical before spending a penny (CAA reckon it's not uncommon for someone with 100 hrs or so and a class 2 to then come in and fail the class 1, and the CPL idea goes Pete Tong). This forum is brilliant - best thing I've come across.
Two things started me on the road to try this as a career once again. Firstly, a heli trip in a Hughes 500 over Fjordland in NZ, which was chuffing marvellous, flying over a frozen caldera and above the worlds 4th highest waterfall. Secondly, I saw a program about Jonny Kennedy, who was born with an incurable disease that made his skin fall off on contact. That lad lasted for 36 years until he died of skin cancer last year. You have to see the documentary to believe it. I'm not an emotional person, but to see the bravery, courage, good humour and pragmatism of that lad who was in perpetual pain and immobile, I made a pact with myself then to get out there and take more chances in life. Here's me wondering whether to have a crack at something I've always wanted to do and being slightly worried about blowing cash I can afford to blow, whearas someone like Jonny Kennedy would have given 300 times that money simply to be able to kick a ball about for eg.
It's a very levelling thought, and not intended to sound sanctimonious at all. As such, I still have doubts, and always will have, but I'm still going to have a crack at it.
Manage the risks and go for it !!!
Well, what can I add - dilemma if you do, dilemma if you don't. They're both valid viewpoints.
Personally, it's my opinion that if you look hard enough, one can see drawbacks and reasons for NOT doing something in almost any aspect of life. If you concentrate on the drawbacks all the time, life would be pretty dull and none of us would ever chance anything.
Silverknapper makes a valid point - 'if you have doubts, perhaps there's the answer'. I think it's possible to have major doubts, but still choose to go ahead, having weighed up the risks and accepted them.
For starters, it's possible to reduce or eradicate many of those risks, simply by getting advice off forums like this. Since I started on PPRUNE, I have changed opinions and ideas 3 or 4 times - all beneficial as well I might add eg getting the class 1 medical before spending a penny (CAA reckon it's not uncommon for someone with 100 hrs or so and a class 2 to then come in and fail the class 1, and the CPL idea goes Pete Tong). This forum is brilliant - best thing I've come across.
Two things started me on the road to try this as a career once again. Firstly, a heli trip in a Hughes 500 over Fjordland in NZ, which was chuffing marvellous, flying over a frozen caldera and above the worlds 4th highest waterfall. Secondly, I saw a program about Jonny Kennedy, who was born with an incurable disease that made his skin fall off on contact. That lad lasted for 36 years until he died of skin cancer last year. You have to see the documentary to believe it. I'm not an emotional person, but to see the bravery, courage, good humour and pragmatism of that lad who was in perpetual pain and immobile, I made a pact with myself then to get out there and take more chances in life. Here's me wondering whether to have a crack at something I've always wanted to do and being slightly worried about blowing cash I can afford to blow, whearas someone like Jonny Kennedy would have given 300 times that money simply to be able to kick a ball about for eg.
It's a very levelling thought, and not intended to sound sanctimonious at all. As such, I still have doubts, and always will have, but I'm still going to have a crack at it.
Manage the risks and go for it !!!
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Silverknapper, how can you say 'if you have to think about it, then you may have answered your own dilema' Are you trying to say that people should not have to think carefully before making a major decision about whether whey should spend c. £60,000, or sugesting that you yourself chose not to think about it.
Both of these are worrying sugestions, and many companies may be wary of employing someone who seems to have such a blase attitude towards spending such a significant amount of money.
Are you suggesting that when you took the plunge, you didnt have to consider the consequenses, couldnt be bothered to consider the consequenses, or feel that consequenses dont apply to you?
NB
Both of these are worrying sugestions, and many companies may be wary of employing someone who seems to have such a blase attitude towards spending such a significant amount of money.
Are you suggesting that when you took the plunge, you didnt have to consider the consequenses, couldnt be bothered to consider the consequenses, or feel that consequenses dont apply to you?
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In fairness NinjaBill, I think SilverKnapper wasn't suggesting that unless you are 200% committed to helis as a career from the word go, then don't bother.
I think he was just tactfully suggesting that anyone with real doubts should sit back and take a long hard look again at what committments they are undertaking. I don't think he was saying 'forget it, you're a starry eyed wannabe with no idea of what it's really like' - a view that can easily be found on other threads, believe me.
I don't intend to start flying until Oct, and I've been researching the whole flying thing since about February this year. This wait has been forced on me, and by crikey I'm glad it has been otherwise I believe I would have already made two or three horrendous financial mistakes by now.
IMHO, to any other wannabes out there, my advice, if I'm at all qualified to give ANY, would be :
Decide what you want to do. Then mull it over for a couple of months and re-evaluate your feelings yet again. Gather as much info and opinion as you possibly can - good and bad.
Re-consider your situation in light of every new angle you find out. Do the sums and then re-do them, and then add on 25% contingency. When you have that figure in mind, and you think it's realistically achievable, ask yourself is here anything else you would rather do with that money eg buy a house. Ask yourself, 'what kind of life do I want ?'
Basically, weigh up as many risks as you can, and if they are ALL acceptable to you in the long term, then make your decision.
If you're still not sure, ask yourself this ?
'If I died tomorrow, what 5 things would I regret NOT having done ?' Put those in order of importance, and you'll have a pretty good idea where the money should be spent.
I hope that make at least a small amount of sense. It ain't perfect, but I think it's working for me - and at 39, one does have to be a cautious old git ..................
I think he was just tactfully suggesting that anyone with real doubts should sit back and take a long hard look again at what committments they are undertaking. I don't think he was saying 'forget it, you're a starry eyed wannabe with no idea of what it's really like' - a view that can easily be found on other threads, believe me.
I don't intend to start flying until Oct, and I've been researching the whole flying thing since about February this year. This wait has been forced on me, and by crikey I'm glad it has been otherwise I believe I would have already made two or three horrendous financial mistakes by now.
IMHO, to any other wannabes out there, my advice, if I'm at all qualified to give ANY, would be :
Decide what you want to do. Then mull it over for a couple of months and re-evaluate your feelings yet again. Gather as much info and opinion as you possibly can - good and bad.
Re-consider your situation in light of every new angle you find out. Do the sums and then re-do them, and then add on 25% contingency. When you have that figure in mind, and you think it's realistically achievable, ask yourself is here anything else you would rather do with that money eg buy a house. Ask yourself, 'what kind of life do I want ?'
Basically, weigh up as many risks as you can, and if they are ALL acceptable to you in the long term, then make your decision.
If you're still not sure, ask yourself this ?
'If I died tomorrow, what 5 things would I regret NOT having done ?' Put those in order of importance, and you'll have a pretty good idea where the money should be spent.
I hope that make at least a small amount of sense. It ain't perfect, but I think it's working for me - and at 39, one does have to be a cautious old git ..................
When u are finished and already $100-110K in minus and there is no job in sight, it slips through your mind
" What in the hell where u I thinking" ....
But then u remember how much fun it is and when u go to the bank the manager just keeps smiling to u because he knows that he owns your sorry ass for the next two decades
" What in the hell where u I thinking" ....
But then u remember how much fun it is
and when u go to the bank the manager just keeps smiling to u because he knows that he owns your sorry ass for the next two decades
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true cost
What about the true cost?
Additional to the direct cost of the training itself, would have to be added the loss of revenue from investing that money elsewhere.
A lot you can do with 60,000BP or even 20,000.
Additional to the direct cost of the training itself, would have to be added the loss of revenue from investing that money elsewhere.
A lot you can do with 60,000BP or even 20,000.
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Hi Ratpup,
Good post and all I can really say is go for it! Came from an Air Force and Airline family myself so had all the exposure and had all the opportunities to fly as a teenager. It was the thing, above anything else, I actually felt really good at and if there is one thing I have ever wanted to do and actually think I would be trully proficient at doing - it's flying.
However, 12 years after first soloing, I'm here in London at age 29, only now having paid off my £10,000 of student loan from a university degree, and in the last few months having faced (in part due to a particularly blunt ex-girlfriend) the fact that the dream I have always held on to, no matter how distant it seemed is now really just that - a dream.
There is no way in hell I can save the £12,000 of living costs (earning 20K a year in London) I'll need to see me through an integrated course, let alone the £60,000 I'll need to do the course with no property or other assets to secure such a loan. Added to that - I'm "old". I try to tell myself that actually I wouldn't have liked it anyway, but the bottom line is that it's pretty heart breaking to see the opportunity slipping away.
For the first time ever I have stopped telling people my ultimate ambition is to be an airline pilot. I've faced facts it's never going to happen. By the sounds of it you have got some of the experience and are headed in the right direction. I don't know how old you are, but if you are in your mid-20's then theres still plenty of time it seems.
As for the debt...it does feel good to pay it off, but if you're going to just go back into debt through training, perhaps clearing that debt shouldn't be the biggest priority. Instead, save the £10K or so and continue minimum payments on loans. Sounds crazy, but the bank will be happy to see substantial savings and will also be happy that you are still in debt paying them interest. Aim for the goal, because, as so many people have said, you don't want to spend the rest of your life regretting you didn't.
Just like jumping on the property market or starting a business it appears there are risks involved, but as long as you are in the air and still have the potential to fly then why not just go for it. The rewards might just be tremendous.
Debt is one thing, but seeing the dream slip away is far worse - believe me.
There seems to be a lot of negativity about the industry as a whole, and while I can't speak for employment rates, from sitting in a minging office for long hours, with virtually no career progression, I fear that those who criticise the state of the industry fail to realise that nearly ALL professions are like this.
Best of luck!
Good post and all I can really say is go for it! Came from an Air Force and Airline family myself so had all the exposure and had all the opportunities to fly as a teenager. It was the thing, above anything else, I actually felt really good at and if there is one thing I have ever wanted to do and actually think I would be trully proficient at doing - it's flying.
However, 12 years after first soloing, I'm here in London at age 29, only now having paid off my £10,000 of student loan from a university degree, and in the last few months having faced (in part due to a particularly blunt ex-girlfriend) the fact that the dream I have always held on to, no matter how distant it seemed is now really just that - a dream.
There is no way in hell I can save the £12,000 of living costs (earning 20K a year in London) I'll need to see me through an integrated course, let alone the £60,000 I'll need to do the course with no property or other assets to secure such a loan. Added to that - I'm "old". I try to tell myself that actually I wouldn't have liked it anyway, but the bottom line is that it's pretty heart breaking to see the opportunity slipping away.
For the first time ever I have stopped telling people my ultimate ambition is to be an airline pilot. I've faced facts it's never going to happen. By the sounds of it you have got some of the experience and are headed in the right direction. I don't know how old you are, but if you are in your mid-20's then theres still plenty of time it seems.
As for the debt...it does feel good to pay it off, but if you're going to just go back into debt through training, perhaps clearing that debt shouldn't be the biggest priority. Instead, save the £10K or so and continue minimum payments on loans. Sounds crazy, but the bank will be happy to see substantial savings and will also be happy that you are still in debt paying them interest. Aim for the goal, because, as so many people have said, you don't want to spend the rest of your life regretting you didn't.
Just like jumping on the property market or starting a business it appears there are risks involved, but as long as you are in the air and still have the potential to fly then why not just go for it. The rewards might just be tremendous.
Debt is one thing, but seeing the dream slip away is far worse - believe me.
There seems to be a lot of negativity about the industry as a whole, and while I can't speak for employment rates, from sitting in a minging office for long hours, with virtually no career progression, I fear that those who criticise the state of the industry fail to realise that nearly ALL professions are like this.
Best of luck!
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Dave,
I'm 29 and I'm going for it!! Don't talk like that. If you want it bad enough you should just organise your life accordingly. It's painful for everyone. I certainly don't think I'm too old and airline pilot mates of mine who are following my progress don't think the fact that i'm fast approaching 30 is an issue.
Just remember that getting into debt is not good but neither is waking up every morning going to the office wishing you were elsewhere - that's a lot worse! You've also said this! Just do most of the flying in the States and the debt no big deal on the grand scale of things i.e A FULFILLED LIFE !!!
B
I'm 29 and I'm going for it!! Don't talk like that. If you want it bad enough you should just organise your life accordingly. It's painful for everyone. I certainly don't think I'm too old and airline pilot mates of mine who are following my progress don't think the fact that i'm fast approaching 30 is an issue.
Just remember that getting into debt is not good but neither is waking up every morning going to the office wishing you were elsewhere - that's a lot worse! You've also said this! Just do most of the flying in the States and the debt no big deal on the grand scale of things i.e A FULFILLED LIFE !!!
B
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I agree with Biscuit. Dave, check your PMs.
I have plenty of 'elderly' mates looking for right hand seats. They've had to instruct for two or three years to gain hours but I don't think this is an age-related phenomenon. Nearly everyone has to do it nowadays.
Ratpup
I have plenty of 'elderly' mates looking for right hand seats. They've had to instruct for two or three years to gain hours but I don't think this is an age-related phenomenon. Nearly everyone has to do it nowadays.
Ratpup
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HI ALL
Ive just got to start by saying that this is a brillant topic and has just got me motivated all over again....
The first time I was ever in a smallish aeroplane was a Seneca flying to a game lodge on the eastern coast of South Africa. I sat in the right hand seat and the Pilot let me 'fly' the plane for a little while. I was hooked instantly. I came back to Johannesburg and broke the news to my parents gently that I wanted to be a pilot. OHHHH you should have heard the argument that ensued. I had just recently gone through a nasty break up and found out a few days before Christmass that my ex was very sick - some problems with his heart. I had taken this particular trip to go and see some friends and to try and sort my head out. I just thought it was fate and all that, I had reached a cross roads in my life at 21 and wasnt sure what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. My ex and I had a place together and I sold the place and with the money that was left over started my PPL to my mom's huge dissapointment but to my dad's delight.
Now over a year later, I have over 150hrs and am looking to return to Ireland (Im originaly irish) to start my frozen ATP through Bristol correspondance. While Im studying like mad I will also have to find myself a job so I can start saving for my CPL. Im going to have to beg, borrow steal the money from somewhere but I will do it. Flying is my life and without question is the best thing that I ever did and when Im up there nothing else matters. I know its a lot of debt to get into but I cant imagine anything better than getting paid to fly even if its very little.
Again a brillant topic and good luck to everyone.
BL
Ive just got to start by saying that this is a brillant topic and has just got me motivated all over again....
The first time I was ever in a smallish aeroplane was a Seneca flying to a game lodge on the eastern coast of South Africa. I sat in the right hand seat and the Pilot let me 'fly' the plane for a little while. I was hooked instantly. I came back to Johannesburg and broke the news to my parents gently that I wanted to be a pilot. OHHHH you should have heard the argument that ensued. I had just recently gone through a nasty break up and found out a few days before Christmass that my ex was very sick - some problems with his heart. I had taken this particular trip to go and see some friends and to try and sort my head out. I just thought it was fate and all that, I had reached a cross roads in my life at 21 and wasnt sure what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. My ex and I had a place together and I sold the place and with the money that was left over started my PPL to my mom's huge dissapointment but to my dad's delight.
Now over a year later, I have over 150hrs and am looking to return to Ireland (Im originaly irish) to start my frozen ATP through Bristol correspondance. While Im studying like mad I will also have to find myself a job so I can start saving for my CPL. Im going to have to beg, borrow steal the money from somewhere but I will do it. Flying is my life and without question is the best thing that I ever did and when Im up there nothing else matters. I know its a lot of debt to get into but I cant imagine anything better than getting paid to fly even if its very little.
Again a brillant topic and good luck to everyone.
BL