"Thank goodness the tree did hold on to its prey and that Biggles gets his chance to learn from what must have been a challenging situation.

(I can't imagine otherwise that the AAIB would suggest something like <<The pilot attempted a pancake landing into the top of a tree>> .)"

Or indeed caused a 'flick' if mishandled and rolled the aircraft inverted at low level...

"CT jumped like a frightened rabbit as I snapped on full aileron Right and kicked full rudder left!) then pull back the stick to reduce speed"

Think I'd have taken my chances elsewhere knowing the Dundee area pretty well and the multitude of other 'off field' landing options.....each to his own however!

How on earth can you do a "long final" to Dundee staying North of Dundee?

The airfield is south of the town. It would be very unusual for Dundee ATC to want you North of the airport - from the AIP:

And the published circuit directions are:

so arriving aircraft should therefore be South of the airport.

This information is also in Pooleys (which you claim to have been reading).

Or maybe you just got your North and South mixed up? A basic mistake, when you've been travelling North all day, to think that what is in front is North. Not very good situational awareness, though.

FBW

I'm quite familiar with Dundee having studied at College there for 2 years in my youth and more recently did some flight training there.

Long final for 27 would be the norm if coming in the from the north / north east. Route via Broughty Castle VRP (5nm to the east of 27) and then just south of the shoreline past the docks (with oil rig), road bridge (2nm east of 27) and rail bridge (1nm east 27). This avoids overflying the city.

Vince's tree is about 2.5nm north east of the 27 threshold. This would appear to suggest he was approaching from the north and advised to route via Broughty Castle for a long final to 27.

However if he did do a go around as has been suggested then I cant imagine why he would have ended up where he did. A LH circuit to the south over the Tay would have been the norm.

Quite simply the guy was overloaded and frankly didnt know what the hell he was doing and I think that probably answers most of the stuff here.

Pace

And still our hero did nothing wrong. Post 210 is more or less an accurate account of the controlled airspace transit. I, for one, will appreciate a formal investigation by the CAA of the airspace issues (as requested by the pilot) and for them to take appropriate action as a result.

As I see it, a late request to transit controlled airspace was made and granted. That's good.

The position reporting, knowledge of altimetry and airspace, and standard of RT was questionable - but something ATC, being professionals, could work around.

A request to climb was approved. That's good again.

A request to descend was requested. This was approved but only to an intermediate level. A clearance which our hero read back and acknowledged but then did not comply with. Good, right up until the non compliance.

The pilot was transferred to Edinburgh who had jurisdiction for further descent clearance. The pilot read back the correct frequency but made no contact. He seems to think a TMA controller, with professional knowledge of Scottish airspace and having spoken to Edinburgh to co-ordinate the flight, would transfer him to Inverness whilst above the River Forth. Now we are getting a deflection on the muppet-ometer :)

The pilot then ignores the fact he was only given a clearance to specific level, ignores the fact that he was not cleared to enter Edinburgh controled airspace, and ignores the fact that he is not in contact with any ATC agency to advise what he is doing, and descends willy nilly through the Edinburgh CTR.

Sorry Vince, but the balance of evidence points heavily to you being a muppet and potentially dangerous to the rest of us who fly and try to keep the reputation of GA piots high with the authorities.

Well said. Not helped by news reporters asking questions before the dust has settled and allowed time for some introspection.

The 4300' mountain might have got in the way then!

Vince, when you're in a hole already, stop digging. Listen to what is being said. You appear to be stuck on permanent transmit.
DO.

No throw him another shovel......dont want to re-order my Beano just yet!:)

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4755/13082009261.jpg

This is the daddy thats going to spoil your day if your lucky enough to miss the other 20 odd 3000ft+ Munros on the way

Not forgetting the odd hill between Barrow & TLA

Indeed it is, but Dundee is well south of the Highland fault and surrounded by lots of large flat fields.

AHH - To Digress - Ben Macdui on the right at 1309 metres and Braeriach on the left at 1296 metres. Must have been taken from around the Devil's Point at south end of the Lairig Ghru. Real Bandit country.:)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7900/13082009265.jpg

You are correct sir. And the end of the Gru.

And before anyone gets excited there were no pax on board and I know that I would have been stuffed if the donk had gone. Cracking day for a ferry

Couldn't you have stalled onto the top of a nearby munro?

So the next question would be how much fuel did the RH sightglass show at that point in time?

Another question would be how much experience you had flying the CT at similar fuel levels?

Given that in a right turn the wing would be up, one would think that it would take significant uncoordinated flight to unport that tank outlet, perhaps an uncoordinated levelling off interrupted the fuel flow.

But remember we are talking about the last 5 litres in a 65 l. tank. This is where interruptions in fuel feed can be expected.

A CTSW manual on the web (the accident a/c manual may be different) cites fuel capacity of 130 l. and usable fuel as 124 l. That would mean a total quantity indication of 6 l. is effectively empty.

A gauge inaccuracy of plus or minus 2 to 3 litres in a 65 l. tank becomes critical at this stage in the proceedings.

One can also suspect that such a low unusable fuel quantity requires coordinated flight and that any imbalance could considerably increase the quantity of unuseable fuel.

Vince,

again you have shown courtesy and restraint - where others haven't. I am getting a better picture of the latter stages of you flight, based on you last post. Dundee and Perth are both well known to most pilots in Scotland and many from the south too. However, you did not have the benefit of that local knowledge , which would have perhpas made a big difference.

I think there are lessons to be learned by many current and future PPLs in examining you flight and for that reason I think it is very helpful that you have taken the time , at this time of personal bereavement, to answer all questions very fully. This is an open forum and not a court of law you may be judged by the posters here ( harshly by some) but, as you say, much of that is based on hearsay evidence and supposition.

In considering the details available and ignoring the flight from the point your motor conked out, I think the lessons are.

Plan for more than one contingency - Your focus on Dundee may have seemed logical but, given the plethora of great airfields available, shown on the charts and in Pooleys your decision to go there looks dogmatic when you had no better knowledge of Dundee than anywhere else. Consider your alternatives.

Expect crap weather - long flights cannot be carried out without encountering variable weather conditions. From your own reports I think you were really pushing your luck spotting through the holes - at 7000', over unfamiliar territory , visual navigation isn't that easy when you can't see the whole picture. I suspect this contributed to your difficulties around Edinburgh where VRPs are easy to find - unless you don't know where you are.

Take decisions early - In continuing your flight to the North, past Perth, you eroded further your margin. This is perhaps academic but what if Dundee had been closed down by Haar, a training accident or you had to hold to allow for an inbound commercial movement - this used to be the norm. There was no way you would have made Kinloss without stopping, given that it had already taken 2 hours ( your words) to reach Edinburgh form Barrow ( a little over half way?) as soon as you were over the Forth you should have been making plans to divert. be that to Dundee or Perth. The goto button on my satnav is a preferred way of doublechecking my own maths and is handy but NOT my primary means of VFR navigation equipment.

If in doubt ask. Dundee was not familiar to you using only Pooleys and a 1:500000 chart you will be able to see that the airfiled is next to a River ( technically the biggest ( by volume) in the UK, which makes it pretty unmissiable ( even throuh holes in the cloud) If you were given a long final on 28 ( or is it 27 now?) that is going to put you well t o the east and, as you say you were joining from the North. The VRP at Broughty Castle is visible from well to the North as the land slopes down towards the water and there is nothing in the way. The Tay is only about 1nm wide until you get closer to the city and , from memory, if you aim at the centre of the road bridge you would be set up for a long final on the westerly runway. It sounds as if you hadn't go that far before the motor packed in and so this is academic. My only point is that If you don't know and airfield you should work out where things are well before you decide to land there. I would suggest that 10 mins with pooleys and a chart on the ground is going to make more of a difference to you than trying to look up the details whilst flying, descending, talking on the radio and trying to figure out where you are. ATC at Dundee have always been very helpful and if the tower knew you were unsure of your position they might have given you a few helpful hints. Maybe 10W can suggest whether this is good advice.

Question your own decisions - not as in what Biggles would have done but, just run through the what ifs one more time.

Finally, I don't know why a simple engine failure and survivable crash has attracted such vilification on this site. Even you walked away unscathed! However, if the circumstances of your transit throught the Scottish TMA over Edinburgh have been reported accuratley I suspect that your conduct of the whole flight does leave something to be desired. I would reflect on that and maybe try flying with a few different instructors in your new mount and listen to their feedback.

Vince,

I have never landed in a tree, but something I do have in common with you is that I have been in an air crash close to Dundee and I have been rushed to Ninewells Hospital, together with my elderly parents and the pilot.

On that occasion the staff and facilties at Ninewells were beyond reproach, we simply could not have been treated better.

Yet earlier in this thread, before your first contribution, there were disparaging remarks made about Ninewells, which I have not seen you gainsay, despite your eagerness to argue with everything else that has been said.

Do you have anything nice to say about them, or were you not well treated?

Similarly, because our crash was a ditching, I found myself in Dundee with no clothes, no glasses, no mobile phone, no money and no credit cards, yet the wonderfully generous people of Dundee ensured that I got everything I needed on credit and trust. Did you find Dundee so unwelcoming that you really had to travel home in your jim-jams?

This is an example of what I mean.

Timothy,

Would that have been in the TBM700? I was flying out of Perth that evening and remember hearing the balloon go up.

Your experience of Dundonians was perhaps more typical than Vince's grumblings. ask nicely and you will receive. I suspect the dayglos vest and PJs was an invention of the press but I stand to be corrected.

I've never felt inclined to register for PPRune before, but this one incident has pushed me over the edge.

Some of the posts on this thread have been pure conjecture, but many, many replies have hit the nail right on the head - this guy was an accident waiting to happen.

Just to put the record straight for those who somehow got it wrong - 'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield.

If I ever fouled up so badly that I found myself flying an aircraft with so little fuel in the tanks (below min useable by all accounts) I would be conserving enough height to reach an airfield - especially if that involved flying over a built up area to get there.

I'm beginning to wonder if he was already gliding, deadstick, and not wanting to let on. Why else allow yourself to get so low over a city?

Caird Park is well inside the city boundaries - therefore within the built-up area in my book. There are lots of housing schemes to the north of where he crashed.

It would probably have been a good idea to declare an emergency when running virtually on fumes, apparently he didn't do that either.
The Mayday only came when the engine stopped.
A little birdy tells me that the call went something like, "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday I've run out of fuel!"

Now he claims he didn't run out. :ugh:

The long list of problems with this pilot and this one flight will be keeping someone very busy for some time. I hope they do something about him - by that I mean more than just a tap on the wrist and a bit of advice, which seems to be the norm for the few who operate in this manner.

Timothy I am sorry if you took my comment about ninewells to heart.

I concure that Dundonians are warm hearted and honest folk.

Ninewells in 2005 had huge problems with MRSA.

Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?

With the amount of flak that Vince is getting I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for the poor sod.
Vince. No doubt you will soon be deluged with books from the various authorities that you have upset, may I suggest you read a book, if you have time between interviews of course. It is entitled "The Killing Zone" by Paul A Craig. How & why Pilots Die.
It is an American book but applicable to any part of the world, or even the planet that you come from.
The basic gist of most of it is. Do not leave your comfort zone until you are very familiar with the current edges of it. I am quite serious when I say it should be read as part of the syllabus alongside the training manuals 2 4 6 & 7.
Perhaps you should read it as you next consider planning such a trip. 200+ nm with the latter part over hostile injun territory, in an a/c with a known fuel delivery problem under certain circumstances. To a destination that you had to be at, with a deadline, & with very few hours under your belt. The weather over most of Fife that day was not good with rain squalls & low cloud.
The pictures are great by the way, but there were about 50nm of views like that ahead of you & each way sideways, absolutely nowhere to put it.
This may be why many of us are so speechless at your intentions let alone performance.

Vince kindly replied earlier in this thread to the point about min usable fuel being around the fuel level he admitted to having just about the time that the engine stopped. He has apparently received confirmation that his aircraft was safe down to 1/2 litre remaining.

Given the long history of fuel cross feed problems on this aircraft type, and the firmly worded warning about the consequences of flying it out of balance when low on fuel, I find the statement that it's OK down to 1/2 litre frankly unbelievable.

Every high wing microlight with wing tanks that I know of (with the exception of one that sensibly has a conical collector tank fitted in the fuselage) tends to suffer from fuel flow difficulties of some sort when the wings aren't level or at low fuel levels. If it were me, I'd have not been comfortable continuing my flight with less than about 10 litres or so remaining. I believe that the US manual, which gives 124 litres as the usable fuel, from a nominal 130 litre capacity is a reasonable figure. Quite why it isn't in the TADS for the UK microlight version is a bit of a mystery.

VP

Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?

No go-around. Trust me, I should know. ;)

I think the confusion came from reports of him flying PAST Dundee before turning back and people getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Crash one

Not quite that bad, you have a couple of usable ones in the lin of dee area , a decent clear track at Derry lodge and once your over the other side the spey valley has some options.

Going up the A9 is just as bad with big sections having nothing but the road.

But in essence you are correct and the same applies for alot of the highland region

Thanks Wingnut, I didn't think Biggles had from his report of what happened.

What on here, no, never.:)

'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield. Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?


A friend i spoke to over the weekend says he certainly didnt do a go around at Dundee. Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare. Last thing they heard was Mayday, Mayday, now out of fuel! No further transmissions were heard!!!

I do have to admit to being of the non flying community but i have had a fair few flights out of Dundee. I do however feel that i can pick out the wheat fae the chaff as it were and all i can say is, good luck in keeping this story up Vince! I hope, along with others i have spoken to, that the AAIB will take a very good look at this tale!

I just wonder though, when you had the engine failure Vince, why didnt you turn towards the airport?

And why did you not like the look of the 200-300ft oil rigs and transmitter you would have flown in between? The Dundee joining traffic manages to miss them all the time! And as Timothy will confirm, Dundee Airport has a very useful Hovercraft if things get that wrong over the water!!!

Mad Jock.....The Gru and at the same time getting a first class Basic service from myself??? :ok::ok:

Mad-Jock
Thanks for that. I stand corrected.
I am only a 150hrs wimp at the moment. Went to Oban once so far, nice country but I did have 60 litres before dep on the way back at 18lph.

Just a thought - the AAIB aren't obliged to investigate this accident.:\ They may well just ask the pilot for a written report which is then regurgitated in a bulletin.

Nothing wrong with being not happy with the "risk factor" I certainly don't consider it a wimp to not be happy with doing it.

I have been flying that area of scotland for getting on for 7 years now and when I was instructing full time I was doing the trip to Dundee sometimes 3 times a week.

And getting brought up in Aberdeen I have been walking in those Glens for 20 odd years.

Personally I wouldn't go north of Perth/Dundee without 2.5 hours of gas on board. And you might ask why so much. Basically if the runway gets shut at Inv I have enough to go up to Dornock and wait there. If the wx goes to poo I have enough to get to Abz or at a push back to an ILS in the central belt.

Stonebase

With a glide ratio of 14:1 he could have made the airfield then.:confused:

'Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare.'


More duff gen I'm afraid. Never got near the castle. If he had there's
a lovely long beach or grass strip to land on.


.....a few trees to aim at though. :D

Does this mean that the donk went at Broughty Castle ?

And what a fine day it was :ok:

If, as has been intimated, Scottish have filed CA939 reports (Report on Alleged Infringements of Air Navigation Legislation) then it will at least be investigated by AR&E at the CAA. As it's now got a rather high profile, who knows what AAIB will do...

Never mind the r/t transcript, I'd be more interested to hear the phone transcripts/recordings between Scottish and Edinburgh!

Interesting to think about the AAIB. When i first saw the story I thought, ah he's misjudged a glide etc, then he opened his mouth. Im sure the thread would of only been a few pages long.

I do wonder if the AAIB are in a similar boat now, if Vince hadnt opened his mouth he would of got away with just the pilot report.

Vince, Surly this whole thing has at least made you learn a few things?! Have you insurers said if they are going to pay out yet?

I know I have learn't that if ever I am unfortunate to have an incident and survive I will not be sharing the experience on pprune let alone the press.

Vince for what its worth "good luck"

Actually plenty of us do post details when we screw something up, either here or in the other place (as I did recently), in the hope both of learning from others and of warning others.

I dont think Vince is at fault for talking on here, just talking in so much detail. If he hadnt of spoke to the press or had simply said, the engine cut out, lets wait for the AAIB report it would of all blown over...

Lets just wait for 6 months time when the report comes out...