Tuscan

Does anyone know what has happened to the CT wreckage, will it have gone to an AAIB site?

Ps can I claim my pint now??

pints galore
 

What are the major points contributing to this accident ,and how to help pilots avoid them.
There,is that serious enough,and I'm just off to the pub,so how will I know if you've bought my pint?
Lister:)

What a shame that our hero was headed north. I wonder what the outcome would have been if he had been tooling around in the London TMA at 9,000 ft? It is certainly a fascinating thought.

Were the trained killers at Leuchars on standby or what?

Upon reflection that does it for me.

Whilst that's still a fair way from getting locked up for contempt, it certainly looks like a deliberate step in the right direction!

There's no way this guy is for real, it's a wind-up.

I would be at all surprised to see our man Biggles having the last laugh!

He's a mason - so no prosecution!

He's a 'professional' mentor - paid for out of public funds.

From one of the sites associated with him "Mentoring, particularly in its traditional sense, enables an individual to follow in the path of an older and wiser colleague who can pass on knowledge, experience and open doors to otherwise out-of-reach opportunities. Coaching on the other hand is not generally performed on the basis that the coach has direct experience of their client’s formal occupational role unless the coaching is specific and skills focused.

Having said this, there are professionals offering their services under the name of mentoring who have no direct experience of their clients' roles and others offering services under the name of coaching who do. So the moral of the story is, it is essential to determine what your needs are and to ensure that the coach or mentor can supply you with the type and level of service you require, whatever that service is called."

He could well end up 'helping' many of the people in this profession!!!! And even better at the expense of the public purse - what rich irony!

Quite why a qualified(?) 'mentor' appears to be so resistant to learning or absorbing knowledge largely reinforces many of my prejudices about the sort of people who work for these semi-quangoes.

My summary - he was operating just beyond the level of his abilities, which normally would just expand his experience - if he got away with it. A fundamental oversight - fuel quantity - meant his capabilities reached breaking point and his survival was not down to rational thought - just dumb luck. As for his media peerformance? Presumably not a mentor in that area!

I know what you mean. Was it not due to flex wing incursions in the Edinburgh CTR that it was altered and extended - or was that Vince too?

Also, did I not read about one of the flex wings from Perth slamming into a hill top near glenshee last year - narrowly missing some walkers/climbers. I don't recall that was a forced landing but just stupendously dim flying. Was this man named and shamed?

Apologies to all if this was done to death at the time but I think I may have been overseas at the time it happened and can't remember where I read about it. I will now search for an AAIB report but, on the face of it that was an avoidable CFIT which endangered third parties and was no doubt also a breach of rule 5 ( object, person or structure).

Seems that maybe speaking to the medja is the reason for criticism of VH.

Vince,

How did you run out of (or low on) fuel in an aircraft with just you on board (thus allowing full fuel with weight to spare) and such a large fuel tank?

You mentioned that if the engine had failed 30 seconds, before or after, there would have been better options, in that case why were you so low?

Your decision for flying straight into the tree seems to me quite logical, you mention that the fairways have other obstructions so it makes sense in such a situation to opt for the worst possible outcome straight away as everything can then only get better. However why then fly into it at 70kts?

Finally, do you hope to win a Darwin award this year? The Darwin Awards

Was the guy who flew into Glas Maol named and shamed? Well after a big team effort in retrieving his aircraft he was awarded a wooden toilet seat which sits on the club house wall - I think you could say he was!

Narrowly missing walkers is too much like media 'plummeting' and 'avoiding the school' which is only about 20 odd miles away!!

trex450

You really need to keep up.

Biggles has already explained that you need airspeed to do a pancake.

(Easy to miss something on this thread).

Vince has, quite rightly, pointed out that much of the talk here is pure supposition, based on reporting in the media (with all the inaccuracy that inevitably brings), However, we have been given enough information from several reputable sources, including Vince himself, to be convinced that Vince made several serious errors of judgement, although it's equally clear that poor old Vince is completely oblivious to his own failings.

I'm more than slightly surprised that Vince hasn't answered any of the core questions raised, but instead has chosen to behave rather like a politician in avoiding the key issues, this says as much about his approach to flight safety as any of his actions on that fateful flight.

Clearly Vince was fairly ill-prepared for this long trip. He seems to have not understood some very basic things, like the way his aircraft's fuel system worked, or the need for proper fuel planning, with safe reserves. His knowledge of general airmanship matters, like how to safely cross areas of controlled airspace, use the radio, his understanding of simple fundamentals like flight levels and the law as it applies to his aircraft type and licence all seem to have been sadly lacking.

Frankly I'd like to see his instructor/examiner come on here and explain how Vince came to be given a licence with such a poor knowledge of these basics. Perhaps Vince managed to bamboozle him/her too.

For those that hold out some hope that all will become clear in the AAIB report, I hate to disillusion you, but I doubt they will even so much as glance at the wreckage or visit the scene. The severity of the accident wouldn't warrant any sort of formal investigation, I'm sure, so will probably be very largely based on the hype that Vince spouts forth.

This is a great shame, as I think there are some good lessons to be learned from Vince's moment of fame. The most important lesson is perhaps to ignore Vince's proffered wisdom that it's a good thing to emulate the hero from a work of fiction and choose to execute a semi-controlled crash into a tree. The second most important lesson is to remember that powered aeroplanes need a certain minimum amount of fuel remaining in order to continue to fly...........

VP

And dont speak to the media, leave that to your club spokesperson if you have one or get some advice first.

People keep going on about his instructor, I know vince and his instructor and i know it took many hours (i think it was 70) to pass his NPPL (M) i did mine in 25 hours at the same time as vince with the same instructor (I now have a JAR PPL)

Soon after Vince passed he "disapeared"

He came back a few weeks ago after the few years absence and asked his instructor to sign him off. His instructor REFUSED as he needed further training and Vince got the hump and "found someone else" to sign him off. No one at our club is aware of the identity of this person as Vince would not tell any one.

just a thought, what was the Qnh/Qfe at dundee as Vince may have still beem on 1013 and could explain why he was scared of the bridges etc as he could have been much lower than his instruments were showing??

I have flown G-VINH and it has one of these all in one lcd type set ups (not an EFIS) and it is tricky setting QNH

All this has got me re-reading my PPL Air Law. It's not nearly so dull once one can connect it with one's own experience.

Hey guys just spent the day wandering the streets of Glasgow on a bit of R and R...had to come back to 3 pages of missed post's....still not re-ordered my Beano as the crack on here too good .:ok::ok:.....Oh well its back to work for me tommorrow so for those of you that looking for a good "Basic service" just give me a call....safe flying one and all my fellow Jock aviators..:cool::cool::cool:

Right every ppruner who uses Scottish info tomorrow has to fit the word "biggles" into thier RT at some point. And fishbang has to report back how many do it :ok:

I hope you nipped into the Horse shoe for a cheeky one at lunch time fish.

Counting House for me....£1.60 a pint for some nice real ale!! :-) :ok:

Interesting thought, though it apears the QNH at Dundee at the time was pretty close to 1013. History : Weather Underground

Pilot X had always had a love of adventure.

As a child he had his hero in Biggles and these heros of the past had influenced his dreams of being like them.

At a later stage in his life he took up flying. he was a slow student taking 70 hrs to achieve his NPPL (M) His instructor had concerns about pilot Xs natural ability. But Pilot X blotted out those concerns as nothing would ruin his dreams.

Nevertheless once armed with a licence Pilot X was now equipt to live out those dreams.

He had a need to visit Scotland and with this in mind hatched a plan to fly himself there.

Taking advice he was warned about a front which may cause him problems but reckoned he could beat this front before it arrived from the west.

Having said he was a slow learner there were many gaps in his knowledge but he had a licence he had an aircraft and off he jolly well would go.

At first all was OK he trundeled along VFR at 2500 to 3000 feet where most microlight type aircraft operated. Pilot X was enjoying himself and imagined the route would be the same all the way.

Further along the track he was alarmed that the visibility had dropped and that his aircraft was punching through bits of scud cloud. he climbed and suddenly the visibility was good he was VFR with good sight of the ground way below. He felt like a serious pilot, good descision to climb he relaxed and enjoyed the flight again.

Blast that cloud he had climbed over had joined him again, had got thicker and the holes were not as frequent.

He had no cloud flying ability and in desperation climbed again trying to stay visual. He calmed himself with the thought that this was localised and would improve ahead.

Easy to drop down again when things improved so he plodded on.

Talking to Scottish they cleared him at FL80. He was alarmed as the RT started to sound unfamiliar and he didnt want to sound like an idiot. Blast again the clouds were again touching him. He instinctively pulled back and was at FL83. Pilot X asked for higher and was offered FL100.

He was in a mess and he knew it but to admit it would be to admit to himself that he wasnt up to the job. He would try and bluff his way a bit longer.

he was starting to panic with all the unfamiliar RT and knew he was flying in conditions where he was out of his depth. he was stressed out could not think clearely.

Low and behold he saw a gap and the ground. His overwhelming desire was to get down under the cloud and back in his comfort zone. God he wished he was on the ground.

" Cleared to FL70 " Pilot X panicked FL70 was not enough he need to be VFR and fast. He descended and carried on while scaring himself in clouds past FL70 and on down.

Pilot X was told to contact Edinburugh but by know all his mental capacity was involved in flying the aircraft. He was equally scared to talk to someone who would tell him to do something he didnt want to do again.

Pilot X was now so confused that his overwhelming desire was to get on the ground. His mind was fuddled, basic stuff he knew no longer registered. He was in a slow horror movie where he had become a passenger not the pilot. He reacted to events and did not control them...........

Maybe not the chain of events but a typical chain of events which show how important it is to fly within your own and the aircrafts capability and if you do get a situation you cannot handle to tell ATC who will help. Pride can be a misplaced attitude......

Pace

Just rereaded that and have a few alarm bells ringing. He wouldn't be the first and wouldn't be the last to be so silly.

BTW Pace that has a ring of truth about it.

Were you in the cockpit too?

A perfectly plausible scenario. One thing that you don't mention which I am afraid is perhaps relevant, the bit that everyone has missed, are the human factors involved - although strangely the clues are in Vince's postings and in his initial media comment.

He was on his way to visit his daughter after a family bereavement. His mother in law and his duaghters maternal grandmother (I presume) had died only a few days prior to the accident. Perhaps the rush north was to provide comfort to a potentially distressed relative and this may have coloured the pilots judgement on the day - gethereitis, again.

Whatever the level of Pilot X's ability and competency, any stress caused by death of a close family member( I think these were VH's own words) may be an underlying factor which influenced the outcome of the flight. Financial worries, marital strife and the recent loss of a close family member are all listed as reasons to reconsider flying under the I'M SAFE , before going flying, checklist.

Where stress in a contributory factor the PIC is , sadly, often the last the recognise this, indeed, it is difficult to attribute the cause of any such accident to any single human factor.

In flying, you are more likley to be pecked to death by ducks than be eaten by a crocodile! Catastrophic single failures are thankfully a thing of the past (mainly) but a string of small errors can easily bulid up with fatal consequences. I belive there were a string of events driven by perhaps by(unexpectedly?) deteriorating weather, unfamiliar territory ( FLs), and a need to press on with the flight plan ( rather than stopping and replanning).

I do wonder if we have a classic human factors case rather than an incompetent pilot?

Incidentally, I dug out the AAIB report on the flexwing accident at Glas Maol. No evidence of anything other than a perfectly competet pilot ( aged 56) simply not acting within sensible parameters. Stunting around hill tops is not a pastime to be recommended. I have often encountered rotor off the tops of hills - even in benign conditions and once or twice in PA28/C177 have had to apply almost full power to achieve anything other than a slow descent. The report is only two pages long, and didn't seem to involve anything other than the pilots very honest account of his misadventure.

If, heaven forbid, this event had resulted in a fatality this thread would have been awash with people telling us to 'wait for the official report'.

Normally I hate smilies, but here goes;

:ugh:

You are quite correct munnyspinner

Which is why I really hope the Board do a very complete investigation on this trip.

It really does have the potential to be the mother of all case studys, it really isn't a desire to stick the knife in the poor chap. It's just a real life accident which can and will be used to educate/reducate current/future pilots.

"Right mate its your hour with an instructor isn't it; read this...."

Ah, but in this case the PIC has actually stated in this very thread that he wants the report to be compiled from his posts in this thread!

So we are actually helping to compile "the official report". :)

And fortunately this event didn't result in a fatality, although that was more through good luck than anything else, so the PIC is available to tell all and sundry his view of events and defend his actions. Whether or not this represents wisdom and his best course of action under the circumstances is debatable.

FBW

Unlikely to help him, it seems he's just a country member

I'm sure that if he actually did anything illegal,the wheels of justice will grind.

Sorry, Vince, you come across as concieted and arrogant. One of the earlier posters came up with a really good teaching-aid.


Pour some water onto a tea-tray and walk round with it.


The tray is analogous to your big, flat tank...unless your aircraft attitude puts the fuel outlet at the lowest point AND you are flying absoloutely in balance, the usable fuel will slop away from the outlet.

IMO you have never bothered to pay attention to your sight-glasses until . at that last turn, the sight went from ~5L to empty...then you failed to connect "unbalanced turn....slop....can't suck the fuel "

That scenario SHOULD have been familiar and the apparent "sudden dissapearance" would not have caught you with your pants down.

...and if we're to follow Cockney Steve's analysis, then setting off with proper reserves in the first place, and making sensible decisions along the way, would have prevented this whole laughable waste of time.

Intellectually adept though the pilot in question may be out of an aircraft, he's nothing but a liability when in one, so far as I can see, and as I said before, the bizarreness of his actions after the accident is a match only for the wretched series of errors which led to it.

Let's hope the folk in London get stuck into him properly.

Its got nothing to do with the folk in London under Scottish law.

The system up here is completely different.

Anyone getting done will be taken to court by the Proc fiscal. The CAA can advise them but that is as far as it goes.

Under the scottish system as well, the guilty cannot be charged the expense of bring the case to court.

So if your going to cock up scotland is the place to do it.

FlyBywife

I have no doubts thet Biggles has not given the true picture of the events :)
One poster described his responses as those of a politician skirting around the answers but not really answering the questions.

I am equally sure that he is trying to guard his ego. There are enough facts to piece together a likely scenario. Far from being arrogant I am sure he really knows how lucky he is and the mistakes he made.

My own pilot X example in a posting above is a likely one. Infact if I was Biggles I would use it as well as the bereavement as why he got himself into such a mess.

I am an inexperienced pilot. I got into weather I am not trained to deal with because of "push on itis" I was desperate to be with my daughter.

I should have told ATC of my predicament but thought I could sort it myself which was a mistake. I have learnt my lesson and under normal circumstances would not have acted in that way. I am sorry.

If he is clever that is the approach he will make tail between his legs. If he is stupid which I dont believe he is he will state that he is a fantastic pilot who did nothing wrong then he will deserve anything he gets and should not continue flying.

Totally agree. Very few accidents are the result of one mistake but an accumulation of poor judgements and actions.
Often that starts when flying when upset or not really in the loop.

Pace

mad jock,

Who do you think will carry out the investigation?

hamster....the pprune mafia!!:)

I really don't know to much about it apart from when my old PPL school getting done for operating an aircraft without a CofA.

It could very well be a PPruner, there are loads of Police/legal type PPL's about in scotland.

I presume some poor sod will get given the task of gathering all the relevant details together. Then in conjuction with the CAA legal types work out which pieces of legislation are thought to be of an issue. Then a report will get sent to the proc fiscal office who will decided what is to be done next.

Then if it is getting taken any further it will be the Proc Fiscal or one of his/her deputies who then take the case further.

If it does get taken futher it will be a major pain in the arse for all concerned and could very well bugger peoples holidays and roster patterns up.

But then again we could get a bash together and give the Grassmarket a good seeing to.

Taking it further means a prosecution which is unlikely especially with a novice pilot who has got into a mess.

The CAA are unlikely to prosecute even in cases you think they would prosecute.

More likely a letter is my guess as long as his paperwork etc is in order

Pace

Thats the point Pace, the CAA have nothing to do with deciding if there will be a prosecution. If the Fiscal deems it in the public interest they will take it further. It will depend very much on the way Scottish and Edi ATC word thier report and the "danger to the public" that was caused.

You might note I am only talking about the airspace bust...

The other parts of his trip who knows...

The CAA can't prosecute anyone in scotland. They can't reclaim costs. The only rights of access to the case are the same as any other member of the public who has an interest.

Mad Jock....sorry to dissapoint but not one mention of Biggles 119.875 this morning....that said not many daft buggers wanting to fly in this weather...apart from the nice man from Sky News in his Twin squirrel!!:ok::ok::ok:

Mad Jock

Ok but put it this way what could they try and bring charges for with what we already know? and what would that achieve? retraining is a different matter but they dont have powers in that direction. If all his paperwork is in order cannot see what they could do?

Pace

Sorry added to the previous post while you were doing your post.

Basically it would be to do with his actions in the Scottish TMA and EDI controlled air space.

Endangering the Public.

Boo fishbang the wx was a bit pants down in the lowlands. Quite nice up north, unfortunately everyone still licking there wounds after......
So nobody wanting to experence my unique style of instructing :}

fisbangwollop...
I mentioned Biggles when passing by- doesn't that count, even though it was directly into your lughole, and not on the RT? :O

Mad Jock

There is a difference between an experienced pilot busting CAS who should know better and a novice pilot who gets into a mess. ie someone who knowingly does wrong and someone who does wrong because he is Sh****g his pants.

We also dont know whether he actually bust CAS? he was given clearances which he appears to not have flown accurately. He also appears to have descended below an assigned level but he is a VFR pilot flying an aircraft not approved to fly IFR.

I would be really surprised if a prosecution is made by who ever. You also have to consider the position of ATC in all this. A microlight up at FL100, a pilot who didnt sound as if he knew what he was doing.

Did ATC ask his qualifications, level of experience did they ask whether he was in difficulties? Add in his mindset with the bereavement and desire to get to his daughter and I really think a prosecution would be pointless and negative exercise.

Pace

Hey Bigears but surely you noticed I was fast asleep and never heard a thing!!:p:p:p

Pace, thereby lies the problem , if your may be right about PIC skirting around the 'truth'. i.e its what he's not said that matters. However, the onus on proof lies with the prosecution so PIC is innocent until proven guilty.

I am generally in the "string em up by the wotsits mob" when it comes to anything that compromises safety but, in this case, despite poor RT and an alleged infringment of airspace would it be in the public interest to prosecute? As a deterrent to others - perhaps. As a punishment - surely compulsory retraining would yield a better result.

As regards the actual crash, the Procurator would have to prove that PIC was negligent or wreckless in his conduct of the flight and that resulted in the crash ( although until a charge is brought I can only speculate as to whether this would be the appropriate test ) Again, as there were no injuries or damage to persons or property I think it is unlikley that PF would see that a prosecution is in the public interest. Conflicting evidence as a result of damage to the aircraft, lack of independent corroberation and the fact that the pilot claims that he had enugh fuel but that the donk conked out - might challenge a fiscal depute.

If, as has been mentioned, this had resulted in a fatality then in Scotland there would be a Fatal Accident Inquiry(FAI) which is a statutory public inquiry into the circumstances of a death. Interestingly, a FAI cannot make any findings of fault/blame against individuals. Similarly, So, it is over to the CAA to decide whether to seek a prosecution.

As a case study it may be text book - even if Vince might not agree!

Re the CTR Bust, at 7000' was he not out of the Edinburgh Zone but in the scottish TMA? I'm sorry , I don't have any charts with me today but that is Class D airspace above 6000ft and class E 2500 - 6000? At the EDI CTR boundary if he was above 6000' ( climbing to FL10? ) was he technically still in the TMA? Clearance is required - was this given?

And Oh p.s. Bigears...that puts me 1 post ahead of your tally now...:):):):):)