This arrogant idiot must never fly again.

But the public are happy/relieved anyway.
From the letters column of the Evening Telegraph:



WHAT AN amazingly lucky escape for the pilot of the light aircraft, which crashlanded at Caird Park golf course in Dundee.
It is truly miraculous no one was hurt. He landed so close to one of Dundee’s main arterial routes. If he had hit the road it could have been a disaster.

Equally, Caird Park golf course is a very popular municipal facility, which is usually a hive of activity.

If he had landed a few metres in the other direction, there could have been serious consequences.

The pilot says his landing was part down to good instruction and partly to reading Biggles.

Whatever the reason, he did very well to minimise the impact of what could have been a very serious incident. — Relieved.

Well things have come full circle it seems. Now we have idiot journos all over the country writing articles about a non-story - stories about a bunch of pilots on an internet forum criticising another pilot after an accident. :rolleyes:

Front page stuff of course... like some Radge Right Americans slagging off the NHS, some Essex slapper splitting up with her plastic-chested husband, who's been evicted from Big Brother this week, all important stuff in the world of course. :rolleyes:

The problem is, PPRuNE seems to be feeding it all. With all the "idiot/should never fly again"-esque posts here, this is giving more and more ammunition to the idiot journos who write these sorts of articles.

Personally, the choice to land in a tree seemed odd, and the capers around Edinburgh seem bizarre to say the least. But I'm not in posession of all the facts. I wasn't in the aircraft, I don't know what happened, I saw nothing. All I can draw from is some, to say the least, sketchy news reports, a bizarre interview with the pilot and the opinions of some anonymous contributors on an internet forum, who claim to be pilots but for all I know might not be pilots at all. On the internet nobody knows you're a dog and all that.

It's natural to gossip when something like this happens. But we don't now all the facts yet. That's what the AAIB are for. So for the meantime let's all calm down and try not to say anything silly. Especially a good idea now that idiot journos are writing whole articles based on comments posted here.

Smithy

I think the point is that just because the lucky bastard got away with it this time, why should we have put up with the spin-off crap, when he crashes next time.

Not where I live! Less air=less fuel.

The more I read about the illustrious Vince the less faith I have in his implausible story. The only facts that are true are that he arrived in a tree on a golf course - the rest, as the say, is only speculation.

Must say Munnyspinner, despite the circumstances I enjoyed your "Biggles Flies Undone" story earlier on in the thread. Must say I found it very amusing indeed. :ok:

I do sincerely hope however I never have the misfortune of making a mistake, having a prang and having the PPRuNE populace calling me all the bastards under the sun and telling me I should never fly again because I'm a complete idiot.

And I hope the same never happens to any fellow PPRuNErs. Fly safe all.

That's it, and that is all. Leave the rest of the speculation, and that's all it is, to the journalists. After all they're better at it than we are.

Hey Vinsce


those that fly CT know they are only capable of a modest but adequate sideslip. Did you increase the rudder throw?

“But there were weird clouds, patches at different heights, and I got permission to fly at 9000 ft while I was going through Edinburgh airspace. The higher the altitude, the more fuel you burn.”


Lenticular clouds could be described a weird I suppose. You meant to say you burn more fuel to attain not maintain altitude didn’t you? I’m actually against a lot of uninformed slagging I have read here. Be assured none of those gentlemen would ever be deemed worthy enough to find out the cold truth in the way the AAIB will.

You did know of ctflyer forum and the tremendous know how available there, particularly the thread I’ve mentioned earlier? Someone under the name xrayspecs had a near identical experience. It’s possible to turn the car-like ignition key while flying left hand on the stick, something I don’t really like but have to put up with.

Oh and BTW must re-read my old Biggles books again J before I get my next top-up lesson from Vincent Vaughan. Did any of the people on the last chance fairway thank you for not landing on their noggins?

If you are reading this, I'm glad your'e alive and extra glad I have a CT if I screw up! (However thinking of trading it for a motor glider.)

Hhobbit,

It was a cheap shot for which I apologise. I am sure thet Mr H did mean that the it takes more fuel to climb than cruise.

For what its worth , although this thread will rumble on , I think that what needs to be said has probably already been said and that there is little merit in speculating any further as to the cause. Nor do I agree that the flying community are suggesting that Vince be prevented from Flying. No.

There is always something to be learned from an incident like this and for all these low hour students and others who smirk and say “ I’ll never let that happen to me “ then take this opportunity to work out why it could happen to anyone. I don’t know Vince but I am very happy that he is OK and that nobody was hurt. Whatever the cause, it turned out OK for which we should all be grateful.

Yes, I think any pilot who experiences an incident like this needs to reflect and be prepared to accept full responsibility – I’m sure this pilot will. But, don’t give up. Use the opportunity to learn.

When I was doing differences training on my first retractable my instructor let me make an approach without me lowerering the U/C. Three Greens? he questioned as I was doing my fixed gear CRAP check. Oops, a go around was initiated. He later told me that there were two types of Pilot - those that had made a wheels up approach and those that hadn’t - yet! Or words to that effect. Some pilots I know have had all sorts of grief with engine failures and forced landings - non of which have been as a result of their airmanship and I regards them as even better aviators as a result.

We will all benefit from his incompetence..higher insurance premiums all round.

Didn't read, or perhaps remember, your W E Johns too well Vince. When I read the books Biggles flew Camels, indeed he was somewhat disparaging of SE5s; called them glasshouses as I recall ( a reference to the enclosed canopies on some of the later airframes).

I'm also a CTSW owner. After seeing that the pilot was ok, my first reaction was "what a waste of a nice aircraft". I really don't understand the 70 knots reference. Anyone properly checked out on a CT should be able to fly a 50 knot zero flaps glide with no effort at all. A full-stall landing with 40 degrees of flaps will get you down to less than 35 knots and stop you in a correspondingly short distance.

The usable fuel is an issue. My POH says that the last 6 liters are unusable which seems to contradict his experience. OTOH, I find the aircraft far more enjoyable to fly with at least half the tank full and wouldn't think of flying with less than 5 gallons remaining.

In any case, the accident continues to demonstrate the crew survivability of the carbon fiber airframe.

I don't like the way journos from trashy tabloids are using pprune... but this made me laugh :O

just to show that its not just pilots can make mistakes, see the video below

FAA Suspends 2 Workers in Hudson Plane Helicopter Crash

Hey guys, it's me!
 

I am Vince Hagedorn the pilot. If I have learned one thing it is how difficult it is to get into a site like this and respond.

I am grateful for (most) of your messages, but some seem to be based on newspaper reports rather than fact.

I did not run out of fuel. Nor wasthere any danger I would (see bit about flight plan below) The engine stopped with about 5-7 litres showing in the port visible fuel gauge. I was under the direction of Dundee Tower and had been instructed to go where I was going (to a "long Final" along the beach. I do not want to enter into any discussion about this as I might have been given a wrong direction, or misunderstood the direction I was given and it will be for the AAIB to work that out.

When the engine stopped I immediately called my Mayday. River estuary was beyond reach across sand dunes and a road. Did 180 deg turn towards a crop field (noted on way past) for a soft landing, but not enough height for me to reach it and an undershoot meant a small housing estate to hit. Called negative cropfield, assessed a playing field to the East but children and goal posts ruled that out. Had a golf course to my left (west) so called attempting golf course but when I got closer the fairways were crammed with people and full of bunkers anyway. It was competition day I learned later. That left the tree as that way no-one would get hurt.

For the pilots amongst you I pulled a hard right sideslip, then just before impact pulled the stick back hard and the CT went into the tree belly first, which is why I walked away.


After impact the momentum of the engine pulled the aircraft flatter, which was nice as otherwise I would have been balancing on my right ear!

A veteran aviator tells me that the pancake manoeuvre was part of the ops manual for Burma operations - over almost exclusively trees. My Bridge partner told me last night (he was a Mosquito navigator in WW2) that pancake landings were quite common at that time, but were harder to walk away from at 400mph!

As for flight planning, I did this with Captain ************ (pilot and instructor), Head of Flight Ops at Barrow in Furness from where I departed and with the Airport Manager. We all discussed the fuel issue and, although in perfect conditions I had a 50% margin on the direct flight to Kinloss, we discussed Dundee as a fuel diversion. I was told that they were welcoming to pilots of small aircraft and have no reason to think otherwise.

On leaving Barrow the tower told me to contact Scottish Radar which -when in range - I did. There was layer on layer of broken cloud over the hills so I climbed to 7,000 feet and called for a transit at that height through Edinburgh airspace. The cloud heads got higher (though I still had good ground visibility so I asked for 9,000 and then 10,000 - all granted though at 10,000 the controller called me at fl10. Yes I enjoyed that - I've never had a "flight level" before!!

On the descent North of Edinburgh, I checked everything (D####### - height is safety) and found 10 litres of fuel (50 mins at 12 litres an hour which is the long term average for November Hotel). I ran out of MARGIN for Kinloss, NOT FUEL. The Press did not explain this in their reports.

If I had endangered myself and others by running out of fuel I would be far more angry with myself than any of you could possibly be with me!

It is absolutely true about Biggles being the inspiration for the manouvre. Deepak, my former instructor was also a key part of the landing. And this is where pilots understand but others not. From the moment I called the MayDay I was following training. It was not a good option to try a re-start - I still do not know why the engine stopped in the first place - because the terrain was not very friendly but all else was as taught.

There was nothing heroic and no time to think of any consequences. Far from revelling in the attention i have a cremation on monday and a seriously troubled daughter to visit in Findhorn (next to Kinloss).

I should be very happy to enter into any discussion about all this and am keen to complete my report to the AAIB when the inspector returns on Monday. Thanks for reading this. Vince

I am happy to accept all criticism - based on fact. I have just posted a resume of what happened. Vince

thank you for your advice. Most kind! Vince

Thank you. that really IS kind and thoughtful. I wonder how many happy typers would like themselves to be exposed like this on the basis of news reports? Since beingtold by a reporter of the existence of this site it took until this morning to get to access it. Vince

flight time to dundee was about 2 hours - all recorded on instruments still in November Hotel. Other comments do not seem to fit what happened. Vince

I tried to get a bath in Ninewells to relieve the rib ache (caused by the landing, not the humour on this thread cos I hadn't found it!). they told me baths were not an option because of Health and Safety! Vince

I spent an hour on the branch and saw no squirrels. Apparently they were as shocked by my landing as some of you! Would they have been red squirrels there or have the greys invaded scotland as far as dundee? Vince

Munnyspinner. Please read the synopsis of the flight. You have made some thoughtful points, but based on some misinformation. My direct route as plotted on the chart agreed eaxctly with the Satnav. I had permission to cross Edinburgh CTA under the watchful eye of Scottish Radar. I did not run out of fuel, I ran out of margin for Kinloss (because of the cloud dodging and altitude I guess). I went for Dundee as agreed with the much more experience pilots who checked my flight plan. I had plenty of fuel visible in the port sight glass just before my turn, and when gliding. Will have to await the enquiry for explanation of engine cut. For the other guy's interest there is no mixture control on this type of engine.

The satnav will reveal all and I have no fear of that!

Vince

Sorry - never saw the Nunnery so cannot claim credit for that one! Vince

is this right?
 

Thi is my first mesage board - what happens is:

1. Pilot gives Press Interview
2. Press prints stuff - mostly accurate, but with errors (such as running out of fuel - their interpretation for stopping at Dundee for fuel when I ran out of MARGIN for Kinloss but had 50 minutes fuel)
3. Message board writers pick up the story and add their own speculation - they do not even interview the pilot!
4. THEN - and this is the bad bit - the Press begin to quote "A professional Pilots Message Board" and start to magnify the story beyond all recognition.

Now I don't know about you but I am not a Professional pilot and and was asked no questions about whether I was even a Pilot when joining the site.

Is it right that the views of people who are not in posession of the facts and do not always hold any qualifications themselves (I know that some of you do of course) should be treated by the Press as those of Professional aviators?

I find it all rather saddening really, whilst welcoming the comments of those who have taken the trouble to study facts. Vince

thanks cpt smithy
 

Captain Smithy. My point exactly - thank you for standing out from the crowd. Until I was able to find out how to access the site this morning I was being hung out to dry by a - no doubt well meaning- bunch of guys who were now feeding the Press with even more misinformation than they started with. This is not good for aviation. Neither is landing in a tree, but lets leave the Inspector to work out the blame.

I broke an Aeroplane, no-one on the ground died, I pancaked following Capt W E Johns' instructions. Wasn't part of my pilots course at all. Did any of you pilots learn how to do a "pancake" landing in a tree?

A bit you did not know is that I have been flying various forms of model aircraft, including Radio Control, for many years so I guess I have some extra knowledge of the principles of flight you will not have known about.

And best of all I am OK too!

Before making any further comments, a constructive dialogue might start from my synopsis of the flight. All that will check out in due course.

Otherwise aviation suffers, not just me. Vince

Hello Vince.......welcome to the rumour network of pprune..:ok: despite all the slating you have taken I guess each and every one of us are glad to see you fit and well after your experiance.....the main thing is that lessons will be learnt by not only you but by others as is always the case when these little incidents happen.....:cool::cool:

hhobbit
 

Hi - just read your comments. I am preparing to get another CT from Oliver, Beautiful a/c.

As for the sideslip i suppose it would have looked a bit odd from the ground but it was a question of attitude mostly - a big, quick yank on the stick to the right with a big kick on the rudderbar to the left surprised it a bit and the backward pull on the stick just threw the plane at the tree bottom first.

It worked is all I can say. My Mosquito friend said last night that few survived pancakes in the trees over Europe because of the greater speed, and with jets it is all but forgotten.

Look forward to a new CT - cnnot wait to get airborne again. Took 6 hours to get from Dundee to Kings Cross by train! Yuk!! Vince

Vince,

Thank you for coming on here, but you really do need to look very hard at the real causes of this accident (it is clear already that there is more than one causal factor, as is usually the case with aviation accidents).

You say you didn't run out of fuel, but also say that you were down to, or below, the minimum usable fuel level (6 litres is min usable for the CT, I believe). The immediate conclusion is that you did, indeed run out of fuel, as "running out" in an aircraft is letting the level drop below minimum usable. Flying down to within a litre or two of min usable is pretty poor airmanship, in my view. The engine had to stop for a reason, and my money is on the AAIB finding that it stopped because there was no fuel reaching it, which means you ran out of fuel.

You also say that you flew as directed by an ATC unit, implying that their directions may have contributed to your predicament, rather then your own judgement. I'm unfamiliar with the area, but were you in controlled airspace at the time of the accident? If you weren't, then an ATC unit cannot give you directions, they can only advise. In the open FIR (class G) you are responsible for your own navigation and actions, not an ATC unit.

It was reported earlier that you landed at a field for fuel, but couldn't get any, so you took off again. If this is true, then the implication is that you initiated a flight (from that field) with doubts as to whether you had enough fuel. If this is the case, then it is not just poor airmanship, it's bordering on negligence.

Lastly, you were flying a microlight aeroplane. Just like everyone else who has learned to fly a microlight I am absolutely certain that it was drummed into you by your instructor to EXPECT an engine failure. Engine failures and forced landings are (or at least were) an inherent part of microlighting, so the syllabus places a fairly hefty emphasis on flying defensively (i.e ALWAYS thinking about where you're going to land WHEN the engine stops) and avoiding flying over terrain where an engine failure might leave you in the position you got yourself into. You were tested on engine failures as part of your GST. You had to demonstrate to the Examiner that you could cope with an engine failure at ANY point in a flight and get the aircraft safely back on the ground (crashing into a tree is not "getting the aircraft safely back on the ground", no matter how incredibly lucky you were to have go away with it this time).

I am very glad that you escaped relatively unscathed, but there is no doubt in my mind that your actions contributed to the majority of the causal factors in this accident, as I am sure will be revealed when the accident report is published. The biggest single problem you have seems to be an inability to accept that you may have made a chain of serious errors of judgement.

Was it wise to plan to fly over the top of high cloud in a VFR only microlight?

What were you going to do from that height if the cloud closed up beneath you and you lost sight of the ground?

Was it wise to cause such disruption in controlled airspace?

Was it wise to take off from a field knowing that you may not have enough fuel to complete your flight?

Was it wise to ignore the minimum usable fuel limit and carry on flying with just a litre or two above it?

Was it wise to fly over terrain where safe landing options were non-existent in the event of engine failure?

Was it wise to believe that emulating the actions of a fictional pilot in a novel was a better course of action than your training?

Unfortunately, your actions and your subsequent comments in the press have just made all microlight pilots look like a bunch of maverick incompetents, which is far from the truth - most are very careful and professional pilots. Microlighters have worked hard over many years to overcome the prejudices that some aviators have regarding them. Your actions have set that hard work back and will have created a great deal of extra work for many people.

You had an entirely avoidable accident that was most probably wholly caused by your own poor judgement. Please accept that, learn from it and become a better pilot because of it. As another instructor has commented earlier in this thread, if you don't learn these lessons and change your approach to flying you will have another accident, I'm sure, and you may not have luck on your side next time.

VP

thank you fisbangwallop. your name is a bit too close to my recent landing style! VERY keen to learn from constructive comment, and to help others learn from any errors too. Lesson one. Say nothing to the Press - any mistakes they print will be magnified 1000 fold and thrown in your face by PPRuNe ! Vince

Vince....I think you owe a big vote of thanks to the Lady controller who kept all those big birds away from you as you trundlled through the Scottish TMA at FL100....:ok::ok:

Flight design say safe to 1/2 litre (email yesterday)
No stop at a field for fuel. FictionI am afraid
Was in good Vis at 10,000 feet, and well clear of the mulitiple layers of cloud. If I had needed to descen I would have done so to the East of Edinburgh controlled airspace where weather was a bit clearer. Someone suggested that my route should have been there anyway, but the plot went straight through the Forth Bridge -try it yourself.
Stuff about Stottish Radar seems to be from one person listening in. Maybe a pilot? Let the Inspector decide. My track was straight as a die (see satnav later).

As for the rest I should like to discuss with you but find it frustrating to try to remember your comments and reply to them - is there no way of showing the comment and the reply sheet together? Vince

re Controller - of course, but I asked permission before entering the area and was granted. Flew in a dead straight line (see satnav later). My apoloies if that was wrong. Leave the enquiry to decide.

Vince...no thats dead right and not wrong at all...it is calss D airspace and providing you have a clearance to enter which you did you can indeed operate VFR......the fact was it was a rather busy piece of airsapce and one not too used to seeing an ultralite flying at 70kts!! at FL100 :cool::cool:

VP - all accidents are avoidable- but then would we ever fly?. Hope you never have one. Vince

Point taken fisbangwalop, She did have to ask twice for the aircraft type.....

Press & Journal website
 

I found this on the Press & Journal website. Its' a response posted by a reader to the amazing story
Plane recovered after crash into tree, Biggles-inspired pilot ‘will be back in cockpit soon’

Reply by reader. A classic.
Readers' Comments

Mr Hagedorn’s wife Carole yesterday said the experience had not put her husband off flying. She said: “He’ll be back in the cockpit as soon as he possibly can. He’s one of life’s great adventurers. I hope he stays out of Scotland this time for our safety.
Keith Stirton
Report this comment

<< Look forward to a new CT - cnnot wait to get airborne again. >>

CAA, ATC units, Aircraft insurers, police, hospital A & E depts, and the general public, be warned. This overbearing, pompous, arrogant and incompetent idiot intends to buy another CT and 'fly' again.

Next time this fool crashes some innocent might become a victim.

We recommend that mentors receive training to become more skilful at listening, This from his own website! :ugh:

That's box 2 ticked over 17 times
And now box 3 gets ticked every time his lips move...

Mr H - a simple suggestion... You have 2 ears and 1 mouth, use them in that proportion.

Or put more succinctly, JUST SHUT THE F**K UP!


But wait, here are yet more tales of woe and misery, Mr H moaning about his most recent difficulties...Be very clear, flying an aircraft and navigating successfully to a specific destination without running out of fuel and crashing is a whole lot more difficult than getting onto a website. Seriously, if you're coming on here moaning about how hard it is to log on to PPRuNe then there is virtually zero chance of you being able to fly safely. Your woeful recent exploits go a long way to prove this.

Sadly, with your bumptious, arrogant and 'knowing better than you' attitude, combined with your distinct inability to listen and learn, and your propensity to blame everybody and everything but yourself for getting into dreadful situations of your own making, you will forever be an accident waiting to happen in whatever situation you are in, aviation or otherwise.

AVGH, why 70 knots in the glide? Why not 40 with full flaps?

On speaking to the press: Why do that in the first place? At the very least it comes across as wanting the limelight.

I'm glad you survived and didn't hurt anyone on the ground, sounds to me you should have diverted much sooner to a different airfield considering your own statement about remaining fuel. At the very least that is an error on your side and a grave one, it's called get-home-itis and is the most common reason for people getting killed in planes. Read the mags and you'll know.

Vince

I must admire your guts or ??? in coming into this site with so much flack flying around. I think I would have slunk off and hidden.

Personally I like colourful people we need a bit of colour now and again and your incident certainly brightened up this forum :)

When and if you get the new aircraft please do get a good instructor to access your flying you have a daughter who loves you.

I would actually be happy to come on a flight with you that aircraft appears so interesting? I am sure others here would too (not all at the same time otherwise we would pancake into another tree :) )

Anyway take care do learn from this and do get checked out

Pace

Hi Vince
If you were able to see either sight gauge with fuel in it, you did not fly sufficiently un-coordinated (if at all) to starve your engine. FD's half litre is alas a tad unrealistic. When I am 101% sure of my dead stick landing abilities with zero damage (presently 70%) maybe then I will know by doing it for real.

Some forumz have a quote icon, not this forum, so cut, paste and indent if you must.
On the basis you have had a genuine engine failure, I predict you will be not only exonerated by AAIB but commended for creative lateral piloting skills;)

What models do you fly? I do 3d heli sh1t, sort of good average. Models are a bonus when learning to fly, and if you crash you will not die.

:confused:

Vince first of all I presume dealing with the authorities was quite low stress compared to dealing with your daughter.

The pilot that heard your transit is definately a pilot (a short stocky one) in fact he used to be my company type rating examiner. He is not a big plane only person and in fact a CRE on SEP's. In fact his own aircraft from what I can see of it, the main gear has alot of rubber bands keeping it together.

And for the other's after doing a ferry the day after the comments about crap RT could be leveled at 80% of the traffic speaking to scottish info. So much so my gash RT was getting used as an example of how to do it by an instructor at tayside.


Anyway Vince if you want to get back into the saddle, pm me. I might have to ferry a C172 down to Dundee and back from INV on Tuesday or Wednesday or if you just want a fun hour of dual to get your confidence back I can arrange that as well (I don't think I will be able to last a hour without taking the piss though :p ) we can leave any instructor debriefs until you get back home.

And don't try and answer and justify yourself to everyone. Its done now and you just need to move forward learn from the experence. Most high houred pilots have done daft things, the only difference between you and us is that we managed to get away with a sweaty arse and a few more grey hairs instead of stuck up a tree.

MJ

found it!:D I think I meant some forum software automatically embeds the quote.

Mad Jock...Quote "And for the other's after doing a ferry the day after the comments about crap RT could be leveled at 80% of the traffic speaking to scottish info. So much so my gash RT was getting used as an example of how to do it by an instructor at tayside." Unquote


To be fair "mad jock" the standard of R/T that talks to me every day on Scottish Info is pretty good...I have no complaints, and for those that are not so hot well I just guess they are nervous of speaking to ATC.....so for those that are nervous dont be affraid...I am here to help and to be honest my own R/T may at times be a little slack..:cool::cool::cool:

And p.s. thanks for the photo's :ok::ok:

You and me both mate. It doesn't help that CAP 413 has such longwinded pish for a booking in call. Half way through it most seem to loose the will to live or forget what they have said already.

I think mine was "G-xxxx C172 departed Dundee to Inverness, 2000ft at Rattray, routing A9, estimating INV at min 35, request Basic service" a henious crime to some.

Must be turning into a grumpy old git, it just seems nobody is teaching the words "rodger", "wilco" and "affirm" or for the exclusive use in the scottish FIR "aye" and "nae bother".

Most just read everything back.

This forum will, too... I thought Pilots were supposed to be technically minded... ;)

Mad Jock:ok:

I remember a recent twin star takeoff crash out of Lands End never got the flack that this thread did and that was with a so called experienced pilot.

Pace