FisbangWollop

This was your posting which riled me last night where you called me a muppet for asking what i thought was a valid question. It was that rudeness that got me to make the statement of not wishing to meet an Air Traffic controller like you.

If you look at the extract you pasted I actually referred to the fact that i did not know the full details or transcripts. Mine was an impression based on snippets of information. You are in a position to know facts.

I fly corporate jets and also have thousands of hours on a multitude of piston twins many of those hours have been over Northern Ireland and Scotland in summer and winter, day and night, so I hold Scottish in high esteem and know the quality of service you offer.

It was late at night and I apologise for my part if you felt offended by my comments back at you but I was offended by your initial response to me.

May I further add that the problem with these forums is you do not see peoples facial expressions and we often say things to each other which we would never dream of face to face

Pace

Expensive if your by yourself.

During my internet crawling there were a couple of groups down south for 6k for 1/12 share 50 quid a month and 55quid an hour wet including local landing fee's.

Puts an hour in a C152 or PA38 to shame.

Has anyone got pics of the avionics fit and the cockpit?

If true about the medical and RT now its public that there are suspicions. I think the authorities would be failing there duty of care to the rest of us both private and commercial if they didn't take it further.

Lets face it, if he gets locked up for it in Jockland he'll be out in no time on compasionate grounds.

Compassionate grounds my backside, they just realised it was cheaper getting him home as SLF than in a lead lined box.

I would have thought they would have looked at the option of barbequing him over here and sending him home in a jiffy bag but the political fall out would have been to much.

And I doudt very much if it does go to court that it will end up doing porridge.
A suitable community service order would be being a tea walla at scottish for a week which would also aid in his retraining.

Maybe true Hatz - but do remember he has to be dying first!

Anyone got any idea what the upper winds were doing on the 12th. I note from a post a few pages back that the Dundee conditions were about 20 mph from the West. Is it possible that Biggles actually had a substantial headwind at FL70 plus?

Well if scottish thought he was doing 70knts and the plane cruises at 115-120I suspect about 50knts which wouldn't be unusual in that area.

madjock:An earlier post suggested that there might be a question over whether he has actually "been through" it; and it seems to me that may well make a big difference to the prospects of a prosecution being brought - perhaps unrelated to the accident and therefore not necessarily in a Scottish court.
NS

Mad Jock

Fisbangwollop hinted in one of his postings FL90 ish and 70 KTS which I presumed is what ATC estimated off his returns. So realisyically 30-35 kts

Pace

I will go with that Pace.

very true NS

And Dr John it seems a kitkat while doing a stint on scottish info makes for a happy FISO can't see you going far wrong with sending a couple of multi packs as way of appreciation.

Or even better make the effort to deliver them personally the whole team down there likes nothing better than showing pilots the ins and outs of what they do. I found it extremely interesting when I visited.

CTSW
 

Pace

Perth to Tiree, Fl10, groundspeed of 107kts each way with a fuel burn of 12lt mogas, heater, room for inflight self catering, helicopter like vis, light precise handling.

Who would prefer to fly a 25 year old spamcan?

T18

Mad Jock


not a bad idea - will pursue this one -what their poison?

Visited Glasgow end of last year and it was an eye opener. I would go as far to say as part of the PPL training a visit to an ATC unit should be compulsary. The effects of all these wind farms of the radar returns was not comforting.

Don't know what there posion is. But I have never met an Airtrafficer yet that doesn't like chocolate biscuits or some shortbread with a brew. Also means the whole team gets a look in.

Also has the pontential for quite a bit of banter with Scottish info telling Talla sector to piss off and get there own biscuits while they munch away making lots of "bloody hell these are good" comments

gasax wrote:
I have absolutely no desire to provoke any microlight-related debate, but the fact that this aircraft was a microlight is highly relevant here, as the law and regulations that apply to the operation of microlights is more limiting that that which applies to a standard GA type. Of particular relevance are the licence and Permit to Fly restrictions that apply.

VP

where has biggles gone in the last few pages, I guess common sense and reality have kicked in and he has shut up at last

NorthSouth has a very good point there, if indeed our intrepid Biggles was out of Medical / Currency and a variety of other ticks in the boxes then that changes things significantly.

Since a portion of the flight took place in English airspace then an offence was committed in England and a case could be brought through the English courts (allowing the CAA to recover all costs).
The evidence from EDI ATC et all and the final outcome of the flight would just be used to strengthen the case further.....

Personally, if he has knowingly flown out of check, medical etc then I hope they make an example of him.

Actually Fisbang are you still an AFISO after all the service changes

Surely you would now be an ABO or as we normally shorten it a BO.

I am sure none of your collegues would cruel enough to refer to it as a "BeeO"

:p;) MJ who will get a FAll service next time he asks for basic.

Also bearing in mind a point I alluded to earlier, when he turned south over Dundee, he should have been at a height where he could 'glide clear' with an engine failure. This he clearly did not do as he landed on the golf course.

Here we go again!:ugh:
As far as I am aware microlights are allowed in class D.
Permit a/c are allowed in class D. And since recently, over built up settlements.
VFR was complied with.
VMC was complied with.
NPPL daytime only was complied with.
UK airspace? does the Hieland Republic of Jockistan constitute UK?
Is there anything else that I've missed?

All this speculative talk of prosecution is hardly going to enlighten the average PPL of the navigation and flight planning errors of our hero.

I take it that we have nothing further factual to discuss in the past few pages. There are many useful points on planning and wisdom of choosing to fly in certain airspace that are otherwise lost if we progress with further speculation on old VH's fate.

As we can at least all agree that there is little public interest in prosecuting anyone who certainly had no intent of breaching rules and/or best practice, it is highly probable that the relevant authority will take the same view.

It is also unlikely that our hero will be as open and communicative with the CAA and AAIB if such talk continues - hinderance of any investigation that takes place by such talk is therefore, surely, counterproductive for flight safety.

I think the point being made is (and without knowing all the facts impossible to know for sure) that what happened was not just due to inexperience.

OK guys just finished a morning shift on the good old Scottish FIR sector.....only 2 pages to trawl through today!!

Dr John Watson...it was my pleasure to react the way I did on Easter Sunday...to be honest I really didnt think you would make it back and therefore a great comfort to me to know Rescue 177 was well on its way to your last position!!:ok:

Mad Jock.....yes after all the ATSOCA changes I am still a lowly Area FISO but its a job I love so much as you can probably tell when we speak on the R/T.

As for biscuits anything with dark Chocolate and caramel would be fine....that said one of my fine young lady customers and a regular on here has just reminded me that the last time she left a box of Roses after I invited her club for a visit I scoffed the lot myself.....sorry Colette!! but then again I thought they were all for me??

Pace........OK no hard feelings and thanks for the nice apology...I love my job and the guys and girls I work with so get annoyed when any one tries to put them down........next time you are flying north come up on 119.875 and say hello...if you ever night stop with the coporate jet let me know and I will buy you a beer......:p:p:p

"Biggles" claimed a couple of times in these pages that his GPS would exonerate him. Does anyone know if the CTsw's GPS can remember what it did before it was switched off?

Most CTSWs do not come with a intergated GPS. Most have an Airgizmos docking station on the panel which allows a standard Garmin 196/296/396/496 etc to be carried.

The Garmins can 'memorise' track/altitude data.

I will try and post a photo later.

The 'Group A' version of the CTSW - the CTLS, can come with the above arrangement or a perm fitted Garmin 695, which can be coupled to the auto pilot.

fisbangwallop

one of the main things I learned from the engine going pop was at 1800lbs AUW a cherokee 140 will still maintain height with three clyinders working if throttled back (to cut down on vibration) and trimmed out. Ground speed is not impressive but it was sufficient. You are not the only one who thought I wouldn't make it back but we were both wrong. A definate brown trouser experience.

How does a supply of caramel wafers/logs sound?

Hey Dr Watson...well I was glad to all went well....as for Caramel wafers thanks for the offer but really no need.......thats why I am here to offer the service that I do.:ok::ok:

One thing that struck me about that incident I think at first you had picked a field then once you found you could maintain alltitude decided to creep back to PG leaving your nice safe field behind!!.......on landing I know you had little oil left so I guess a landing on the A80 may not have been so nice!! I guess though always a very difficult decision to make...the main thing is a good outcome and all safe and well. do you know the airtraffiker at Strathaven with the Kit Fox...PM is a great pal of mine and keeps promising me a flight one day....as yet I have not felt brave enough!!!

Best wishes to you. :cool::cool:

FisBangWollop

Good we are best of pals and of course i would love to pop in and see you all sometime......will take you up on the beer but my treat :ok:

Pace

fisbangwallop,

the "airtraficker" keeps his kitfox behind my Cherokee at Strathaven. If you want a flight ( in a real aeroplane) "e" mail me and we can arrange a flight anytime that suits you. Re picking a field -that believe it or not was not an issue.I was taught to fly by Yankee Mike Anderson at Cumbernauld with Merlin Flying club of unfond memory in the late 1990's - so I had done so many PFL's in that area I knew the place of by heart. On reflection if this happened again I would be in a position to do it better. What was going through my mind was a friend had a similar occurance some years before in an Arrow and had to return to Edinburgh in IMC. He just made it - the engine seized on approach and he got charged £3,500 for recovery services!! Anyway let me know if you want to fly

T18:Perhaps the IR/IMC holder who would prefer to have the option of flying Perth to Tiree at FL100 on more than the tiny number of days a year when it might be possible in a VFR-only aircraft.

Get it and others like it certified for IMC and it becomes a hugely more attractive aircraft.

NS

Dr JW:Glasgow has been bought a brand new radar to get rid of all the radar returns from the new wind farm south of the airport.
NS

Yea but he had not given up his spare time and also his evening to wait around whilst your flyin came by road due to the weather being too nice to fly in ....anyway I think you know they were greatly appreciated...nearly as much as those you bought for the poor wee lassie at the Prestwick Flight centre!!...:ok: :) ;)

How many of those does 10W manage to nick when he happens to be feeling hungry? :E

10W gets none..!! :p:p:p

Northsouth

that's comforting to know - exactly who paid for the new radar - was it an upgrade to allow for mode S?- just curious

Dr John...thanks for that offer will take you up on that one day....as for a visit no problem at all, I will be in touch to arrange and please please leave the chocs at home as I may do a Colette on you!! :):):)

ATC visit
 

Can we all come and visit if we promise to bring choccy biscuits? Even if we are flying fifty year old taildraggers that are VFR only? I can do FL 100, more if I dig out the portable oxy bottle and buy a new mask :)
Maybe Biggles could be there to tell us all how to do it? In his jimjams for preference of course :}

Sounds good to me....maybe I will arrange a "top of the tree" flyin....visit Atlantic House then a local hostelry in Prestwick before a night in "The Club too far" in Ayr.....a night in a local hotel to recover then all fly home the next day....Ohhhhhh wat have i said......seems the last few pages of this thread have been hijacked by ATC...:ok::ok:

"Scottish we can accept that clearance"

Haven't had a PIK bash in years.

well we had sort of done to death that the guy is a prat and I for one was getting quite depressed that these sort of antics are going on.

NOTAM: All pilots who try and keep up drinking with 10w, fisbang and the other ATCO's at scottish it can be very messy and makes your kidneys hurt the next day.

And not to mention your head!!...:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Crash One wrote:
I have no disagreement with most of the above, and, as many on here know full well, the very last thing that I would do is start any sort of anti-microlight feeling.

I do think we need to consider the true limitations that applied to this flight though, and not just assume that they were the same as most other GA flights, as they were not. I was making the very valid point that the limitations for a microlight, particularly key issues like licence revalidation, medical requirements and minimum visibility under certain conditions, are different from those appertaining to other licence holders.


VP

How, exactly, does one "comply" with VMC? And how does that differ from complying with VFR?