Well, he certainly wasn't that! :}

Yes, yes - I know. Sorry. Is that my coat over there?

I don't know to be honest.

As I said the whole thing hinges on the reports that the various agency's submit and the view of the proc fiscal on if it is in the public interest or not.

The endangerment wasn't related to the crash, its what Edi had to do to steer traffic away from him.

As I've mentioned before, I very much doubt that this accident will get much in the way of an in-depth investigation. The injuries were not severe, the amount of third party damage was modest and, as far as I can tell, there was no independent examination of the wreckage, so there won't be much in the way of hard evidence as to causality.

I also doubt whether any airspace infringements were severe enough to attract any sort of legal action either, even if they'd occurred South of the border they would hardly have warranted more than a stiff 'phone call to the pilot afterwards.

I predict that all we'll see is a brief report from the AAIB, based largely on the pilot's testimony, that will be nowhere near as entertaining a read as this thread.

That doesn't change my view that the pilot is being a fool to himself by continuing to pretend that he wasn't to blame. His chosen strategy will just make a great deal of work for others, including, I'm sure, the manufacturers agent in the UK. Flight safety isn't likely to benefit much, which is a shame, as I think a lot could be learned from a full and open appraisal of the causes of this accident.

VP

I don't know if he had admitted that he had run out of fuel due to his cockup they might have done as you have just proposed.

That type has had a few prangs and engines conking out due to fuel starvation while fuel is onboard is worthy of further investigation.

edited to add I have no real strong views on if should or shouldn't be taken to court. My only reason to comment is for the southern pilots to realise is quite different up north on the legal side of things.

I quite agree the full in's and out's of the trip should be documented because I can garantee they will be used for years for training pilots

VP959

I would really question ATC in this? I was involved in a Citation which filled with smoke climbing through FL240 over the channel at night.
We were trying to sort the thing out London were brilliant and very perceptive although at times they didnt have a lot to go on other than "we have a problem a bit of smoke" which turned into a lot of smoke and an emergency.

What happened here? a bumbling pilot all over the sky and ATC continued to handle him as if he had an IR and IFR equipt plane? Come on someone elses actions need looking at without knowing the full details or transcripts.

Pace

A misnomer if ever there was one!

Fair point Mad Jock - It's roman law up here! None of that poncy common english stuff for us! Scots courts are actually much closer to their continental cousins than the southerners!

Having said that, you will be hard pushed to find any recent prosecutions for airspace infringements if you search the Scottish Courts records! - I've just looked.

PS No offence intended to those who are unfortunate enough to live or hail form Southern Britain.

You will be hard pushed to find any aviation related court cases in scotland. I haven't seen a single one on the CAA's list of success for years now

Something to do with the fact that the CAA doesn't get any of its costs back and its in the public interest to get drug dealers and other such scum through the courts.......

And just to note a previous posters comment. He has already been through one revalidation cycle. He might not be deemed a novice in the eyes of the powers that be. For all we know he could have a fair old number of hours banging around his local area.

Hi all,
I find it a bit strange that Vince seems to be quiet again since mentioning his contact with the AAIB.

As i understand things, the police will carry out an investigation into how this flight ended in a tree. Depending on who the investigating officer speaks to will depend on what evidence that officer takes to the PF.

One good thing might come out of this over the next few years though! I might just be tempted to try for my PPL to fly Microlights!
Take care out there!

Get your facts right before you spout off PACE.....At no stage I think you will find did our mate Vince intimate to ATC that he had a problem.....the only problem was for the lady controller that found her self confronted with an ultralight aircraft bumbling through the Scottish TMA at FL 090 ish and 70 kts as she was trying to sequence here Edinburgh inbound traffic towards the tartan holding fix!!! And dont forget he was operating in the Scotish TMA which is class D airsapce where VFR flight is permitted with an ATC clearance with what dear Vince boy got....now starting to think you more of a muppet than Vince!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Heard him today sounding a bit stressed. Gla wouldn't accept him for fuel - airport authority not ATC. What reason could that be for?

The guy is a :mad: idiot but, it also just goes to show the ludicrousness of the NPPL. This licence is a joke.:eek: I cannot believe insurance companies will cover people with so little experience.
There should be a law akin to dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention and licences should be withdrawn in lieu of retraining and another test.
Furthermore, the attention should definitely be on WHO signed his revalidation and who signed his test pass. Because, in fairness 'pilots' like Vince are only in the air because some other idiot let them.

Obviously it's unfair to criticise the NPPL on the basis of one idiot (who had 70 hours training before he passed by all accounts).

Is there any real evidence that NPPL pilots present more risk?

Just how does one gain experience when one cannot get insurance to fly, in order to gain experience? Or is one expected to fly someone elses aeroplane at that other someones expense & on their insurance, which the insurance company won't cover because the pilot has so little experience?
Only a :mad: idiot would blame the licence, what the hell difference does it make what licence he had?
Yes I obviously have a NPPL(A) & yes, being tarred with the same brush does piss me off. What type of licence do you have that qualifies you to criticise anyone elses? :ugh::ugh:

ATPL with unrestricted current FI rating :p

And i think there is :mad: all wrong with the NPPL and its various flavours.

Now old farts and gingers!!!! different story. ;)

Fisbangwollop

or rather Pea brain is more apt what qualifications do you have to make such comments reveal all amaze me NPPL? PPL? or NOTHING probably NOTHING!

Really how many microlights do you think in your amazing wisdom cruise at FL100 in that space? How many microlight pilots given a FL to fly then go up and down like a yo yo and dont even know what the setting for a FL is? How many microlight pilots flying at those levels talk rubbish and sound as if they have no place to be there?

If ATC are not alerted to a possible problem by the antics of this pilot any one with sense would check regardless of the pilot informing them that he had a problem...... That is pretty obvious

Go change your nappy

Pace

PACE.........I was on duty on the next sector when it all took place....:ugh:

what ATC ? Then explain? wasnt anyone alerted by the fact that the guy didnt know what a FL was? didnt you realise that something wasnt right? Its not rocket science. or were you too busy drinking tea and reading mags? You have a duty of care to those up there. The good ATC are far more intuitive than your purile response indicates

Pace

PACE its obvious from comments like that that indeed you know nothing at all about ATC...if you would like to visit Scottish Control just PM me and I will arrange a visit and maybe educate you a little........the word muppet comes to mind in this thread many times...sadly at times poor Vince is not the victim!!:ugh:

Guys,

Can we all take a deep breath and count to 10? There seems to be some heat developing under certain collars!

There's many good posts and many good points here.

Please can we continue the discussion without raising hackles?

Thank you all.

SD

Fisbangwollop

I have flown your airspace scores of times and never met an ATC guy like you nor want to.

Pace

If thats the case I think you will find you are in a minority of one.

Do you really expect Fisbang and his colleagues to check you have the necessary privilidges every time you ask for a service ? Not to mention checking that the conditions in your locality really are VMC like you claim ?

140KIAS
When the pilot cannot hold a FL, cannot set a FL, goes up and down like a Yo Yo, doesnt even know RT and descends clean through a cleared level and is flying an aircraft, a microlight at those levels then a resounding YES!

In my thousands of hours flying all over the world I have heard many situations where ATC have been intuitive and intervened if that doesnt happen in Scotland then God help us.

Pace

Pace I think you are being a tad unfair mate.

How many times do we hear complaints on here of controllers sealing off airspace.

Unfortunately this will mean that they will quite likely not be so helpful next time someone wants a transit.

Hell its the sort of thing I would do in a none airways IFR equiped single if I had a stonking tailwind.

And if this spat continues I can see a very useful thread being locked by the moderators.

Mad Jock

Ok maybe I went over the top with fisbangwolop being rude and insulting to me. But we are NOT talking about a competant pilot requesting a clearance.

We are talking about a pilot who has generated over 20,000 hits on this sight, nearly killed himself and plainly should not have been where he was or qualified to be there.

In my time I have witnessed ATC being very intuitive. they have questioned whether the pilot was OK, They have questioned his qualifications,They have questioned his abilities. Not once but scores of times.

To be insulted for saying fact and the truth??? I dont care who the poster is.

Pace

Pace
You are welcome to your opinion. But as 140K says you are in a minority of one, fisbang & his colleagues provide us with an excellent service, far beyond that which is now required, & we can do without the licence slinging. I've met them & they are the real thing.

My last post on this. I dont know Fisbang. Yes I have flown many many times over Scotland and have always found Scottish to be excellent too.

Sorry but Something went wrong in this situation and I cannot change that view given the reports to date.

So be it ! one will do!

Pace

We don't know how it all kicked off.

His intial calls could have sounded "by the book" and then once cleared inside and inside airspace only then did it transpire that he was a fud. I don't know how often a VFR/ unfiled IFR transit of that airspace occurs. I am sure fisbang can tell us.

Then the controller only had 2 choices try and turn him round or shepard him through all while shoving aircraft towards the tartan hold as fast as Manchester chucks them at her. You can be sure she won't do it again :)

There might very well be debrief points for the lady concerned and I am sure it will be become a story that trainers will scare trainees on that sector for years with.

So another outcome of this whole incident is that class D which in my opnion was being operated in the spirit of class D ie if there was space and workloaded allowed you got access to it. Now quite understandably, perfectly competent pilots will be refused access in case they do a "vince"

Pace
I don't know the procedure when plonkers meander through CAS but perhaps it would be a better use of rescources to redirect traffic that is able & willing to respond & act, rather than try to educate the one that is not, probably making his situation worse in the process.

Pace, you ARE in a minority of one. I have also flown through that airspace more times than I care to count. It is quite clear that ATC was a tad busy that day. They are NOT required to check whether a pilot is feeling well, is missing his teddybear, to ask him whether he knows what a flight level is (it's in the syllabus so he bl00dy well SHOULD know).

IF the posts on here are genuinely from Biggles, then the guy has no business ever getting in an aircraft again. Were I in Enforcement Branch of the Campaign, I would recommend pulling his licence (based on what has been posted here). He might still save his skin if he tells them it wasn't him posting here, he wouldn't say anything like that, he made several very silly mistakes during the flight in a state of panic and confusion, and he's very, very sorry and he most certainly will never do anything like that ever again. But that's about his only hope.

PS ATPL/FI, Flight Safety Officer and former AFISO.

PACE good morning, thats me heading off to do another day on the sector as you say drinking tea and readings mags....its a shame your muppet lioke comments have ruined what was a good thread untill you came along....as for ATC reacting to emergency situations there is a certain PA28 driver that was very greatfull for my services on Easter Sunday.....Until you get your facts correct how can you come on this BB and spout off like a demented budgie......As I said in one the very first posts....I was on the next sector when all this situation started to happen so saw it from close quarters.....at no time did Vince advise the sector that he had a problem apart from wanting to transit the TMA, climb above cloud and be kept away from the other "big planes"....to that end the Lady controller in question did a brilliant job....now I am not going to go on or say any more on the subject....as far as I am concerned now the rest will come out in the wash ....as for insulting you maybe you should actually read the posts you have made about me and my colleague's as I see the shoe on the other foot there!!.....safe flying to you.......:ugh::ugh:

In defence of the ATC unit involved, I doubt that they would have had any clue as to the limitations of the type of aircraft involved in this incident or the limitations of the pilot due to the type of licence he holds.

I doubt that Vince declared that he was flying a microlight, as there was no need to, and I suspect that Vince is might be of those who prefers not to admit to his aircraft being a microlight, anyway. He was apparently transponder equipped (relatively unusual for a microlight) and flying at a cruise speed and height commensurate with that of many other GA types. There would have been few outward clues to the controller of the class of aircraft they were dealing with.

It would be quite reasonable for the controller to assume that the pilot should know the limitations of his aircraft and licence type and just do his/her best to maintain safety in that bit of airspace, once it was clear that there was a potential problem. This seems to be just what was done, albeit with some inconvenience to other users.

I very much doubt that any legal action will be taken, as the outcome wasn't too serious, even though it had the potential to be. The rescue seems to have been fairly straightforward, damage to third party property seems modest and proving whatever the Scottish equivalent is of "reckless endangerment" would be fairly difficult (and expensive). My guess is that the AAIB report will be brief and inconclusive, Vince will whitewash the media and the true underlying reasons for this accident will be submerged beneath a layer of hype, leading to the loss of a valuable set of lessons learned.

VP

FisBangWollop

Things got heated basically because you were personally rude to me when I made what I thought was a valid point questioning the ATC part in the Vince scenario.

Firstly I have flown to most destinations in Scotland and ATC are brilliant hence my reason for asking why ATC had not been alerted to something being wrong as from what was printed here there were multiple mistakes made by the Vince over quite a distance.

I am sure it would be very interesting to hear the ATC side how relaxed Vinces Voice was, the recordings etc.

That is the problem in a forum we do not have the facts so a lot is supposition but you do have some of the facts regarding ATC and know a lot more than we do.

Anyway my apologies if things got heated but you were personally rude to me over what I though was a valid question so I blew my top off at you. It was late at night which also didnt help :)

Pace

Can i change the subject,

got this text mesg from someone in the know

no RT Licence
no medical
no check flight after long illness
inability to listen
no planning before take off
no CURRENT maps
no fuel planning

= BIGGLES :mad:

I hope to hell this aircraft was 100% his if that last post is correct.

No medical = big poo hits the fan


I feel really sorry for the others if he was a group member.

I have had a poke around about this type and its one seriously nice bit of kit.

Vne of 150knts
20lts of mogas an hour at 120-130knts
nice avionics
Fat tall bastard fit of cockpit.
40knts stall speed
STOL
Under a 100k with all the extras.

PS its good to see you two have kissed and made up.

If half that is true, they will throw the book at him, and I hope they do. I know a case of an instructor a number of years back who got 6 months in prison for falsifying a log book!

Gosh don't read the thread for a day and it's handbags at 10 paces!

I was waiting for the almost inevitable 'microlight' and 'NPPL' attack and of course it came!

The aircraft type is pretty irrelevent because the CT does not look like one and certainly out performs the majority of two seat 'conventional' GA aircraft.

I'm sure that as the situation developed, ATC became very clear that if they did not expedite Biggles route onwards he would overload and become very unpredicatable.

From many conversations I have heard you can often see that point being reached - ATC decide that 'educating' 'shepherding' 'clarifying' whatever is not going to work and so giving a clearance and moving everything out of the way in the sensible thing. The last time I heard it happen it was two foreign military jets, with biggles at least he was slower so it was easier!

I shudder to think what the amazing shrinking GASIL will publish - doubtless more condesending rubbish, then of course we'll have some 'Reggie Bender' prognostigations from GASCO. I feel the hatred for Biggle building.

But to be blunt there really is nothing for the vast majority of PPLs to learn from this - fly with enough fuel? Well who would have thought. Don't land in a tree? Don't talk to the media? Try not to be a prat?

PACE...
That was your response to me inviting you to come and see the operation here at Scottish Centre....and you have the cheek to say I have been rude to you!:eek:

If you have been angered by my response to you I will kiss and make up if that makes you happy :)

I got rather upset I must admit when you intimated that the blame may fall at the feet of Scottish ATC when infact the controller in question should have been given a good show award!!!:ok::ok:

But one thing for sure the response from others that use the service's we provided shows in general we are doing a pretty dam good job..:p

Finally I must thank you for getting me a nice chocky biscuit sent to my sector this morning from AIRPOLICE.....I wonder if the fact there were two fingers in the package was a cryptic clue!!!

Take care and safe flying next time you manage to get into the air..:cool::cool:

Mad Jock

I have drooled over this aircraft too Shame its so expensive :sad:

If no RT licence and if true then that makes the quality of his RT chat enroute even more interesting. ;)

Pace

fishbangwallop.

just had to register and post after reading some of the posts doubting Scottish . I was the "PA28" drive that Easter Sunday when the engine chewed a valve. From my perspective I could not have asked for anymore assistance than was given - It was only when I got down safely that I realised how much was being done in the background for me - luckily it was not needed - calling a Mayday early on was to my way of thinking the only sensible way to proceed.Training and experience kicking in no doubt. All I had to do was nurse the engine back to Cumbernauld. Pity Vince didn't have the where with all to declare a PAN situation. The outcome could have been very different. I don't belive ATC should be second guessing any pilots intentions. It's a two way exchange

Thanks again and I owe you big time.