Mad Jock....that all sounds pretty slick to me....we get the odd one that tells us their life story but then again thats what were here for....:ok::ok::ok:

Well bugger me have just had a look at the latest CAP 413.

That was nice of them to change it to the way I have been doing it for years. It seems I have been a bit behind reading CAP 413 missed 5 revisions.

So score my last comment about intial calls being long winded pish, top marks CAA.

Who you are
What your doing
Where your at
What you want

Its a bit like being told that ray ban aviators are now in fashion.

Vince,

Sorry if I got some of the details incorrect, but it doesn't change my view one jot that this accident was absolutely 100% of your own making. You made a series of poor decisions, and the inevitable occurred. A great deal of luck saved you from serious injury or death.

Many of us will have had mishaps or accidents in our flying careers. I've been in a helo that ditched (through mechanical failure whilst doing maritime ops), had the misfortune to endure a couple of forced landings (with no damage apart from to one's pride) and one accident where we had no choice but to turn back from an EFATO, with the inevitable stall/spin into the ground. The latter was with a pilot with 18,000 hours sat next to me - we both made exactly the same error when assessing the fuel state.

The difference is that I cannot ever recall trying to justify any of my actions afterwards. Each time I've just felt incredibly lucky and stored away the experience as a learning one, not just for me but to others to whom I've related the tale of woe leading up to it.

From what has been posted here, I rather hope that the transcripts from the ATC tapes are made public, as it sounds as if your conversations with them, and their efforts to accommodate your rather unusual microlight flight plan, may prove entertaining.

Finally, any talk of ANY aircraft being able to safely operate down to 1/2 litre of fuel is plain ludicrous. I know the people at P&M Aviation well, and have a lot of respect for them and don't believe for one minute that they gave any assurance that it was safe to fly down to 1/2 litre remaining.

The CT has a long history of a fuel imbalance problems between the wing tanks, in fact I remember raising that it was not a particularly well thought through fuel system at least two years ago. An SB came out as I recall to partially fix the problem, but that same SB also contained some warnings about cross-feeding from the tanks, the need for the pilot to use wing tank indicated fuel levels as the primary source of fuel state information (the Brauniger in the panel is NOT a true fuel gauge, as you probably know already) and the need for the pilot to side-slip to correct any significant imbalance between tanks. As a CTSW owner you should have been aware of the aircraft's operating quirks, they have been known for long enough, even by those of us who don't fly the type.

VP

VP959 did you notice post #138, I as a CT owner would be very worried if I ran out of fuel in this config. Fact is we flew over the sea with one tank emptying a lot faster, but the fuel fed fine from the other fuel tank. Lesson learned was to straighten up and fly right. AFAIK all flat tanked (in the wing) planes will have this characteristic, especially if the dihedral angle is shallow, esp high wing vis a vis low wing. Try half filling a tray with water and observe as you walk.

There is a big discrepancy between half a litre from FD and 124/130 usable per USA LSA category POH. I would be getting very worried below say 15litres.

I did spot that, yes, it was what prompted me to refer to the 6 litres min usable in my first reply on this topic, which in turn prompted Vince to say that he'd had it confirmed that the aircraft was safe down to 1/2 litre remaining.

I wholly agree about the difficulties with flat wing tanks, especially high capacity ones that are of necessity quite long. My preferred solution is a big (maybe 10 to 12 litre) conically shaped collector tank in the fuselage fed from each wing tank, with it's own fuel gauge. Those who know me will know of a type that has just such a system. I actually suggested it as a fix for this problem on another microlight with wing tanks, the Foxbat, which has the same problem. When in doubt about the fuel state in the wings, one only has to glance back at the collector tank level to see if one has enough fuel for another half hour or so. As long as the collector tank level is full, you can be assured that the wing tanks still have some fuel.

One major difficulty with implementing a mod like this to a microlight is the already tight empty weight limit. Many of these hot ship microlights are so close to their maximum allowed empty weight as to preclude any sort of mod like this.

The Brauniger fuel flow indicator is a source of confusion for those who don't read the manual properly. I've met several people who have misunderstood the way in which it gives a rough indication of fuel remaining. From the comment Vince made of his Brauniger telling him the tanks were half full, I suspect he may not have understood how this system works, either. If his tanks had of been half full at that time, then he'd have had around 3 1/2 to 4 hours worth of fuel left. In fact, the manual for the Brauniger has a big warning in it about pilot's needing to have an alternative, accurate means of measuring fuel quantity and not to rely on the fuel state gauge to determine quantity remaining.

VP

Never less than hour's worth of fuel in the tanks
 

Vince,

Your account is an instructive illustration of the discrepancies between what really happened and what people imagined to happen.

It seems there is a discrepancy between the margin you thought you had and the margin you really had. That is a common story and I can contribute at least one recent example of my own.

The engine stopped, likely because of fuel feed, imbalance or unusable quantity problems. It sounds like you were down to half an hour's fuel which to me is time to land ASAP. That last half hour's worth of usable fuel is test pilot territory in my book. I'd want to be high up over a long runway with lots of recent power off landing experience in type before exploring fuel feed at low tank levels. Usually the test pilot has an auxiliary tank that he can switch to when the engine can't get any more from the tank under test:E

Manufacturers tend to maximise their performance numbers and minimise unusable fuel quantities. In so doing, their test pilots fly very precisely to get the best numbers. You will not get those numbers yourself unless you fly exactly as well as the test pilots.

It looks like the altitude Dundee ATC assigned you had you too low for options or restarting if the engine stopped. That is life, but if I were concerned about fuel or the engine, I would want to be as high as possible and let ATC know that.

Vince,

Just a couple of thoughts, surely you must of come away from this knowing you have made at least one mistake...talking to the press.

I think most people here would say that talking to the press can be the worst thing you do, by the sounds of this you have seen why. Im sure at the time you enjoyed the limelight and it has certainly got you coverage but has that come at a price?

You also have never admitted at any point that you could of done something differently. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but most people normally say that if they could do it again they would do..... differently.

5 or 6 litres of fuel sloshing around. You say you had one tank empty which means you were flying out of balance (it happens) and i imagine didnt correct it quick enough but are still seem sure that it wasnt fuel starvation?

Im also surprised your insurers havnt asked you to pipe down slightly. I know following my accident in a CT earlier this year the insurers asked me to say as little as possible to people while it was under investigation.

You also seem to have spoke to the AAIB a lot already, yet I've not really heard much from them and was told it was going to be a while until i did as they were fairly busy at the moment.

I'm not surprised. With you two as customers the manufacturers must be delighted.

I presume then munnyspinner that you also know the full circumstances in regards to my accident?

Vince
I am struggling with this fuel issue. From reading this thread you intended to fly from Damyns Hall to Barrow and onto Kinloss. I have not done a flight plan but that seems to be around 450nm. The CT has a range of 800nm at 125 kts (correct me if I'm wrong). Barrow is about mid-way, so when you checked your fuel before departing you said you had 50% more than required. So with 45mins reserve you had 25 litres (usable fuel). Dundee is mid-way 100 nm or so, and you used 25 litres. At 125kt cruise and 12 l/hr you used more than twice the fuel expected.

Was the aircraft full when you started the trip, 130L? Why depart Barrow with 25L of a 130L tank? I dont understand running out of margin, what does this mean, the margin is 45 mins reserve ( 90 nm) is it not?

Any thoughts on mogas that has been up to 10000ft and then back down again.....condensation ..!!!! could that be a problem.......OK dont shoot me I am only an Air Traffiker but just a thought!!:ok::ok:

Yakker,

this was the point I was rasing earlier in the same thread. Somethings just don't add up. However, I guess that the insurers will now have sat on Vince as they did to AJWTCX - whose accident was no doubt not of his own making either - I do not know the circumstances!


I had a mate once who rented an aircraft to do a bit of general handling and bash the circuit. He queried the fuel state on booking out and was told " it's OK G---- has long range tanks ( I think it was a c152) so you will have plenty of fuel. " On his penultimate circuit he made a full stop landing as the weather was closing in and he thought that he'd had enough after an hour an 10 mins or so. Taxied to the pumps and was gobsmacked to hear the Avgas hit the metal on the bottom of the both wing tanks - another circuit and he would have been making a deadstick landing! Ordinarily he would, like me, have made visial check but because the flight log looked like the A/c needed fuel, he hadn't and relied on unverified advice from the dispatcher. He now has a calibrated dipstick!

I am not familiar with the CT but note that dipping the tanks may be an unreliable way to verifiy contents due to there shallow but long construction. If this is a problem with type then all the more reason to watch the clock and work to a very generous margin.

Finally, just for the avoidance of doubt for anyone south of the border. Within 20 minutes flying time of the redoubtable Vince's Crash site were , in addition to Dundee airport (about 3 minutes away), Perth ( tarmac & grass with lots of fuel and good advice), Fife ( tayside aviation - great), RAF Leuchars (boys in blue will always accept an emergency) not to mention those overflown on your way to Dundee - Portmoak ( probably no Avgas but at least a safe landing site) Balado (again, lots of open space. ) Conversely, North of Dundee on a direct track to Kinloss I cannot think of any active airfields unless Edzell is still being used by Microlights? He had probably flown though one of the most well served concentration of GA airfields anywhere in Scotland - and not bothered to stop for fuel (or ask directions). Inexcusable!

Perth is a popular stopping point for a lot of traffic heading into the highlands and , from personal experience, I would commend this aerodrome to those unfamiliar with Scottish Airspace and local weather phenomena. It is a great overnight stop with engineering and all manner of facilities available. The same also applies to Cumbernauld and Fife where you will also be welcome.

I'm afraid Vince rather reminds me of the most dangerous pilot I ever had the misfortune to fly with. The similarities are striking. The chap that scared me rigid was unable to see that he'd done anything wrong, was an extremely intelligent and well-qualified individual and never missed an opportunity for a bit of self-promotion. What he lacked was any sort of intuitive feel for flying safely, hence my unease.

In the case of the chap that scared me rigid, I took the unusual step of going to see the examiner who'd taken his GFT to express my concerns. The examiner felt a similar unease as to the chap's lack of natural ability, but told me that, on the day, he'd flown well enough to pass, so there was nothing that could be done.

For some reason, I've found myself getting asked to assist with the aftermath of a couple of aircraft accident cases in the last year or two. One common factor seems to be an element of arrogance by the pilot. Another common factor is that those that knew of the pilot's failings only spoke out after the event. Perhaps we should be more open about expressing our concerns when we sense failings in those around us. I've no doubt that some lives would be saved if we did. I'm still haunted by the words of one instructor after a fatal accident I was involved with; they were "I'd been meaning to have a word with him about his flying".................

VP

Vince you did very well indeed to keep calm in an unexpected and frightening situation. To change your landing plan in the heat of the moment and then go on to execute something you've only ever read about is more than I would have thought of or could pull off if I were in your place. :D

What circumstances brought you to this position in the first place can best be described as 'open to investigation' and you are clearly doing all the right things in this respect.

Good luck to you.

Er... as you seem to be gifted with lady luck perhaps you could suggest the lotttery numbers for tonight?

I think you would be better posing that question at Biggles, Ginger and Algy!

Its a good point to be honest. I don't know either I didn't think you could go above 6k using it, but i could be wrong.

Vince,

Let's just be clear here, you flew right past Dundee before you decided to divert - if you accoun of the landing is correct. A long final along the beach would put you to the East of the field approaching the westerley runway over the two bridges. Therefore if , when you fuel state dropped to 5-7 Lt ( apparently 6lt are unusable) you were still on base leg. The 180 puts you back heading North and Cairpark GC is at the edge of the built up area. The rest is history.

However, I still maintain that the you left your decision far too late given that you were down to 12Lt ( 50 mins). A direct route from Barrow to Kinloss would keep you well to the west of Dundee and Perth woul dbe a much more logical diversion. However, if it had taken you 2 hours to fly the 140Nm from Barrow to Dundee then your speed over the ground was a paltry 60kts. This would give you ( with no margin) a flight time to Kinloss of a further 1Hr 10. Not 50 minutes. Your say nave shoudl have been giving you a speed o/g readout and simple maths would have given you due warning that you were experiencing some headwind.

What I don't understand is how you ended up to the North of Dundee when the airport is to the South where you had approached from. A more conventional approach to Dundee would perhaps have been a downwind join or base leg over the Tay. "Ye canny miss it" , was the advice I was first given. " just fly doon the water and aim at the middle span of the bridge." Or something like that ( with all respect to local accents) ATC at Dundee are great but have to mix in training and other GA traffic with commercials, Again, Perth would have been a much more logical stopping point with Dundee as a diversion. However, I accept the choice is yours and that you should be free to plan whatever you feel works.

Anyway, what I may think is pretty academic and falls into the heading of speculation. On the day, it was your call and your flight. I'm sorry you bent your aircraft and put your nearest and dearest through the trauma but am pleased you are alright. I suspect you are one of these people that will never see it the same way as the rest of us but then, we are all different. I would like to think and hope this won't happen to you again - whatever the real facts are. I doubt the AAIB report will be anywhere as entertaining as your 15minutes of media interest and doubt anyone will be that interested by then. 10 pages on a PPRUNE thread is a pretty good result - well done and thanks.

Well, everyone & his dog seem to have had their say so I think I'm entitled as well.
As another low time NPPL(A)
Biggles, model aircraft,:ugh::ugh::ugh: Is this a "Biggles & the Red Baron meets Flight of The Pheonix, fairy story?
Vince, in my opinion, this whole sorry saga is entirely your fault.
The Scottish expression "It was'nae me, it was him an'a" does not apply.
Whether you had clearance to fly through the Edin zone or not, or talking to Scottish Information, or Dundee tower, is totally irrelevant.
Perhaps someone should point out that an Air Traffic Controller does not actually have physical control of the aircraft under their "control", YOU have.
If you had a concern regarding fuel quantity in the vicinity of the river Tay, why did you fly out of glide range of Dundee? You had approx 90 nautical miles of very inhospitable terrain to your destination. You were surrounded by fuel available airfields, Fife, Dundee, Perth, Strathallan, Cumbernauld, Edinburgh, East Fortune, Thornhill. Yet, on the advice of a childhood hero, you chose a tree, on a golf course with long grass fairways, a few miles north & the other side of town to your nearest airfield & you seriously expect people to believe this was your best option?
The press report your last position as, on a train wearing pyjamas & a yellow jacket!! What else is there to say?:D:D

Spot on - but he'll no listen!:ok:

Is it just me, or is anyone else rather worried that this chap could be airborne again tomorrow? In instances like this surely the maniac involved should have his licence suspended, pending the findings of the initial investigation?

A Quick search on google using Mogas at 10,000ft and came up with this report

dick wirth | electric pump | fuel pressure | 1982 | 2457 | Flight Archive

Vince,
I hope you are doing fine after your experience. Please make another visit to Caird Park, but bring your clubs next time as it is a lovely course!

However, i feel things are not adding up with how you came to visit the course. Im sure it will all become clear when the AAIB publish their report!
Cheers!

Mogas.

Not above 6,000ft unless written exemption for the particular aircraft received from CAA.

Was it mentioned anywhere mogas was being used and is it relevant as the engine didn't stop at FL100?

I think Biggles II has now spoken to his insurer and has decided contrary to his low key instinct that he had better no say anymore till after the report came out.

Surely when he does come back he will boast about how he had the wisdom to immediately inform the pilot community of his original alternative to a normal emergency landing site via the wold press and PPRuNe

No mention but it is the fuel of choice for microlites, it could account for the higher than expected fuel burn.

And who's to say that it wasn't carb icing that stopped the donk. Long decent from FL100 power up to fly level to the castle cough, splutter, fart bobs you uncle.

What engine is fitted to these things?
Do they have the ability to lean?
Do they even have a carb heat?

Rotax....still an air traffiker but going for the mogas theory at 10000ft......................and oh by the way I have cancelled this next months Beano as the read here is far far better.........could get the best crack of the year award......well done Vince for giving us mere mortals so much entertainment :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::D:D:D:D

Where d'you get it from anyway? - we used to buy it with the week's shopping but I haven't seen one in Tesco for years now.

I don't think he is reading the beano if it has..

He must have seen a magazine in the teles engineers toilets and he got confused

vince,

its brave of you to come on here and not hide behind some alias as most do.

you need to grow a thick skin to live in this community.

what is going on here you or the AAIB will hopefully prove wrong. then, my advice would be to pursue slander and defimation actions against those who made the comments against you.

good luck

Mogas ... Ah, well there's the answer. Vince didn't say this earlier and being not familiar with the Microlight I had assumed Avgas.

The other problem our Vince now has is that Dundee doesn't list Mogas as an available fuel neither does Tayside aviation. Is Avgas100LL an acceptable alternative for a mogas motor? DND will supply Jet A1 or Avgas100LL. Odd that he should choose that as an alternate given that there are microlights at Perth but none at Dundee - and CFI at Barrow is getting the credit for vetting and giving OK to old Vince's flight plan - poor sod. PIC has to be responsible - regardless.

The Katanas at Dundee were all rotax and they all used avgas. And certain people advocate using a 50/50 mix of the two so it wouldn't make much difference sticking one on top of the other.

I suspect there are going to be a series of factors both technical and human that come out of this.

vp159

I have flown with numerous captains and now fly as a Captain on corporate jets myself. One trait that they all have is a certain arrogance :)

Pace

VanHorck

No restrictions from insurer. Just arranging a funeral for tomorrow (someone else!) so not time before now to engage in chat. Life goes on - fortunately. Vince

mad jock

no lean, no carb heat, Rotax 912. I applied short bursts of light power throughout the descent to keep it warm, and was motoring at decent revs when I began turn.

Will speak to Inspector on Monday and have completed the AAIB form, but waiting for some flight records still in Dundee. Vince

Fisbangwollop - From where I am standing I'd prefer the Beano, but pleased to give y'all some pleasure in life! Vince

crash one. Be fair - I only chose the tree after all other options looked dangerous. Vince

Thanks Sinky for the advice. But how do I sue anonymous slanderers? Even if I wanted to? "Vince slagging off" looks a great sport anyway, I just get a bit concerned when anonymous commentators of undisclosed provenance get quoted as "professional pilots" in the Press! Surely the rumpour mill should be treated as such. Were the AAIB to come out with a critical report this will be reported in the Press - but it would be based on fact, not guesswork and vivid imaginations. Vince

Munnyspinner. Yes the Rotax uses either or both Mogas and Avgas and I was putting down (on the advice of the experts at Barrow) at Dundee. If I had known how hostile the surrounding territory (not the people who were great) was I'd probably have gone somewhere else. But Dundee was the planned divert so I went there. Approaching from the North had me looking at high rise office blocks, an oil rig, a high mast and the Tay bridge. Pooleys (in cockpit) did not really help with this, the chart was not very helpful either and the satnav just showed the outline of the town - which I kept outside. Vince

Pace - further to your comment re arrogance. It is sometimes hard to differentiate between confidence and arrogance. Surely you need to be confident of yourself, your knowledge and your ability to be able to fly at all. If you are confident you know what you did and why, then let the Inspector decide. But is this arrogance? After all I am responding to a bunch of anonymous guys who for all I know may not have ever flown solo, nor even at all. Some are clearly experienced and making valuable points, but others just seem to me to be unkind. Vince

Van Horck. If you really want to know why 70 knots with zero flap (normal is negative 12 degrees on CT), you need airspeed to execute a "pancake". Too slow and throwing the plane at the tree bottom first would not work. One of the golfers described how I dived at the course before impact. Very observant. See the Burma ops manual referred to above (I haven't) cos it would be good to know how it was supposed to be done!!

My pal who navigated Mosquitos in the war said that many pancakes were attempted over forests in Europe, but the pilot and navigator were usually killed anyway because of the light construction (ply and balsa sandwich) and speed.

Full marks to the CT - the carbon shell protected me just as it is designed to do in the event of difficulties. It is a very safe aircraft.

What do you fly?

Vince

Vince ....you must be totally knackered after the events of the last few days...yet you still have the stamina to stay up till 0330 in the morning to respond to the questions asked on this BB. :ok::ok:

Do we know for how long Vince was flying at 9-10,000 ft asl? If he was not carrying and using a portable O2 supply, then the possible effect of hypoxia on his perceptions and decisions made while under those conditions need to be considered.

He was not apparently used to flying way up there - he says in his own first post that he had never had a "flight level" before.

Vince , all credit to you in taking time to respond personally to the points raised. I am sure you have plenty of otherthings to do. You will find that PPRune threads can become endless and thankfully this one is generally in good humour despite one or two pointed comments.

From what you say you were approaching Dundee form the north. This implies that you had already embarked on your route North but had decided that you didn't have enough fuel for Kinloss and therefore had turned back. I kno wthe area very well having been stationed in that neck of the wood s some years ago. Dundee and Perth ( scone ) are actually very close separated only by a line of hills.

You have been kind enough to explain much about the approach to teh crash but we haven't heard much about your routing after Edinburgh and at what point you needed to divert.

Whilst your airmanship in putting down ina tree pancake style is obvious it would seem that having flown past a string of potential fuelling stops the diversion to Dundee was left until too late, when there were airfields nearer to what would have been an obvious track.

Clearly, I don't know your chosen route nor your fligh path from Edinburgh to Dundee. But if you went to the east of the Dundee you would either have had to go around the Leuchars MATZ or through it. Leuchars to Dundee is only 10 minutes and if a diversion was on the cards it would have been sensible to make that call after Leuchars. if you were flying to the west of Leuchars MATZ, Again Perth would have been the obvious choice.

Maybe if you get a chance you can enlighten us?

What I recall from my training is that oxygen should be used if flying above 10,000' for more than half an hour, with no suggestion that you can't fly around all day at FL95. (Assuming normal health with no respiratory issues.)

So I fly at FL95 when I can ... which so far has been exactly once, on all other occasions this has been impossible due to cloud or controlled airspace.

Gertrude

And in the USA Americans are different to us and tolerate low oxygen better as their limits are different :rolleyes:

No Oxygen required up to 12500 feet, No Oxygen required by the pilots up to 14000 feet for up to a maximum of 30 minutes, Oxygen required at all time for pilots over 14000 feet.
Passengers do not need to be put on oxygen until 15000 feet.

Pace


Vince totally agree with confidence and arrogance being close together, the point I was trying to make :)
for your info there is a large mix of characters in these forums. You tend to learn who the the very experienced ones are. Having said that everyone brings something to the table in different areas of speciality.
As for myself ATP business jet Captain 4500 plus hours loads of multi engine in variety of twins and some ferry work and yes have done loads of stupid things on the way but still here (just about) :D

Pace

Vince.
This area is my own stamping ground. I can assure you that none of these optional airfields are dangerous, had you made the decision earlier.
We were in the process of a barbeque at Kingsmuir (20nm south) at that time. Had you chosen to land there I personally could have given you 40 litre Mogas + a burger, free of charge. Please don't tell me to be fair.
Unfortunately there are no trees on the airfield, just 620metres well cut grass. Can you operate from grass or do you prefer trees?:ugh:

Crash One

Come on :ugh: Hindsight is a wonderful thing :) had I done this instead of that bla bla bla

I am sure we all wish we could turn the clocks back and avoid one thing or another we regret in our lives

Pace