Vince is most certainly colourful and we do need characters like him to brighten up this grey society.

he certainly pepped up this forum no end. Vince when you do get the replacement aircraft paint Biggles on the side so we know you are coming. i am sure you will get a warm welcome just land on the runway not the nearest tree :)

i too wish you the best and hope you havent damaged your cause with all this high profile thing.

Pace

Yup, that was the one. Cold, the Tay in October :(

Hi Yakker

Quote from an e-mail from one of them - I am sure he will not mind!

"As far as PPrune is concerned it is (and nearly always was) used as a
whinging arena for people who have to hide behind strange names who then moan about everyone except themselves. I used to read (and use) the forum but for the same reasons I have not looked at it for a long while.

You are welcome here anytime, I have planted a few saplings to make you
feel at home but the runways are an awful lot easier and you don't need
a ladder to climb out of the aircraft."

I have taken a different view, and come on the forum in an open mided way to hear and reply to sensible criticism. Whilst some members have treated this in the spirit in which it is intended, others seem to indulge themselves in being plain unpleasant. Maybe it is unusual for a "zero" to do this. Perhaps you might, yakker, ask yourself why? And what do you fly? Are you a professional pilot, an amateur or what? Perhaps you might give your real name too? It would be nice to know YOUR level of expertise that gives you the right to criticise MINE!

And maybe you'd like to explain the fuel that was, as I predicted, found in the Port wing tank after recovery of the aircraft. Perhaps, in my pyjamas, I busted the police cordon with a can from a local garage and climbed the tree to fill the tank?

If I had done that, you would at least expect me to have a film crew on standby!

I look forward to hearing YOUR answers to MY questions.

Respectfully as ever,

Vince

007 Helicopter (great name!) thank you, Vince

Pace - thank you. I have followed your comments with interest.

When I first heard that this forum was being quoted in the Press I was puzzled. I have known a number of pro pilots (including RAF) and none of them would criticise a fellow pilot based on press reports alone.

It took me ages to get into the thread - mostly cos my glasses and spare pair were up a tree and my old ones here prevented me from seeing the funny numbers and letters and stuff. Then I noticed the refresh and simply click it until I see something legible.

Once in I decided that there was so much "disinformation" that I would quietly feed in real info.

For those who listened I am grateful Those who sought to undermine me, construct alternative scenarios, fantasise, speculate I can consider that this is a rumour forum and that is fair enough.

However, the abusive and hostile comments from some make me query whether this sort of anonymity is a good thing.

I still believe it is entirely wrong for comments of any sort made on this anonymous forum should be made into Press headlines. the Press can have their day when the Enquiry has done its work. In the meantime speculate on, but only expect to be taken seriously if you also listen.

Pace - I exclude you from these comments as you are one who has listened and thought! Vince







Vince

Timothy

I have nothing but praise for the golfers who called immediately to get services on site, the rescue service, police and hospital. They coordinated well and I was really well looked after. I did say that in the Press interviews and it was widely reported at the time. My apologies if that was not made clear to this forum.

The dark blue pyjamas, with a belt and my high viz jacket made me look like a hospital/rail worker I supposed. I left the hospital to get some clothes from a local tesco or something but while waiting had a message from the police that the plane was being removed so I went straght to the park.

Unfortunately my sprained ankle prevented me from walking to the site and no electric buggies were available so I went to the club house and the taxi driver (who plays on the course) kindly walked up to the tree. He reported nothing was happening there after all and that no time was being predicted. (all the club officials were away that day or maybe someone would have found me a buggy. The professional was giving a lesson....)

So I went home, catching the 14:00 from Edinburgh for Kings Cross where my wife met me with clothes. Wanting to see my wife and younger son was a powerful attraction, but I did have the funeral of my first wife's mother to arrange for Monday so home looked good. Husbands and parents will I am sure understand. Vince

I have been reading this thread with much interest, besides my feeble attempt at a mass of puns in the first page or two.

I think the key here is learnings, we have a rare opportunity on this board to discuss the situation with the poor pilot involved. Pitty Chesley B Sullenberger the 3rd was not available to discuss it with us, but looking at some of the attacking posts maybe it was a good thing.

We're waiting on the report yes, and maybe Vince was a bit early in giving information on the forum, maybe, but hey, lets be civil and gain from someone else's experience.

Who knows what I would have done, I had an engine failure in a 182 once, but I had many a field to choose. Looking over other territory I am loathed to look into a canopy as a potential forced landing site.

I must be in a rambling mood so I'll bugger off...Vince, thanks for hanging round, sorry to hear about your Mother In Law.

SB

airpolice

Sorry I do recall seeing your questions way back, but clearly omitted to answer them. I have printed them so refer to the questions in order.

Why Barrow? The front that was expected later in the evening hit the Lakes about three hours early (confirmed by Barrow tower). I was en route to East Kirkbride where a taxi was waiting to take me to Grasmere to see my nephew's family. (he is a "lapsed" PPL)

It was looking murky over towards Leeds Bradford, but bright by the coast so I diverted to the coast and chose to land at Barrow rather than go back to Woodvale, where I had landed a couple of weeks back to see sick mother in law.

Barrow is the most welcoming field I know and also a great base for the Lakes (bus via Windermere or Kendal) I am trying to attach the picture sent me just now by them, when inviting me back after the incident, but with no success.

Re ATC - most postings seem to be derived from one comment. The record will confirm my account. There is a warning on this site that not all postings are what they seem....

Re divert to Carlisle - no need as I had sufficient under normal conditions to get to Kinloss direct with a healthy margin (the exact amounts are on the flight notes and in the a/c). We (ie the Head of Flight Operations, the airfield manager and I all discussed the most sensible fuel stop and it was Dundee. I had plenty of fuel to go there, even after having burned the Kinloss margin in the climb. 10 litres measured at straight and level was quite enough for Dundee.

From Barrow I went at efficient cruise speed under cloud round the headland to the Solway Firth, missing Sellafield well to the East of the railway as instructed by Barrow. Joined the straight line route at the head of the Firth and commenced to climb above clouds.

Fuel at departure was checked and double checked and is in my pilots notes as above. Fuel burn was because I clumbed steeply to get above cloud north of Solway Firth. The clouds were confirmed by another contributor. Fuel was watched throughout the flight, but Kinloss assessed and rejected in favour of fuel pick up at Dundee after leaving Edinburgh.

I have self criticisms of the flight that I shall make to the Inspector, but really it was properly planned with the assistance of three pilots, fuel assessed as planned and diverted as planned. If the engine had cut 30 seconds earlier I had a perfectly adequate crop field (is there Farmers site like this?). If it had cut 30 seconds later I should have ended in shallow water, if there is no beach. If it had not been for "competition day" at the course I might have landed safely on a fairway.

Please note that the engine panel, transponder and satnav have all survived and are being handed to the technical inspector by the loss adjustor. I trust that he will have my charts, Pooleys and flight notes or that they will be in "lost property" held by the police.

Once again, sorry if I seemed to be ignoring you. Vince

SoundBarrier - trust you prefer jets with a name like that!? Vince

PS the taxi from Grasmere that was a EK came all the way to Barrow to collect me. What a hero! Vince

Vince,

Sound Barrier is more of a goal than an experience, well actually the other way round. I don't want to get to the Barrier of Sound for fear of breaking up. I only fly pistons with a little turbine time.

"Avoid the Sound Barrier"

hehe.

Sound Barrier.

How is it flying a turbine? I flew round the volcanoes of hawaii a couple of months ago (as a passenger, the volcanoes were safe!) behind a turboprop and could not believe the deathly silence and thrust.

Is there a technical difficulty with developing a small. light t/prop for small a/c or is it an economic one?

I have often seen small gas turbine jets on model aircraft so I would assume that the power/weight ratio can be within some useable limits. Anyone care to make a fortune?

And there is the guy who flew the channel in a winged suit recently - he had (was it 4?) of the little jets driving him.

So why are we small aircraft stuck with technology that dates to the last century but one, however well developed since? Did Whittle (1907 - 1996) live in vain?? Vince

Hi Vince.

I also fly a CTSW, so I'm genuinely interested to learn from this incident.

When you say

Can you confirm that you calculated your fuel burn as being 10ltrs between Barrow and Dundee? Just a rough measurement suggests the distance as being 140nm on a direct track. Assuming a cruise of say 110 knots using 14ltrs per hour I'm struggling to see how 10ltrs could be adequate. Does the 10 ltrs include or exclude the 6ltrs unusable (the aircraft I fly has this clearly placarded).

Also, what type of flight display was fitted to your aircraft. Was it the Brauniger AlphaMFD 'LCD' style display or the Dynon EFIS system, (the latter will show fuel to destination if coupled to a GPS). Both systems however do not directly measure fuel in the tanks - they rely on the pilot setting the onboard fuel level prior to flight based on dipping the tanks. When were the fuel tanks last dipped? I'm curious about this as you mentioned that you 'diverted along the coast to land at Barrow' - Did this use additional fuel? Barrow does not normally have either MoGAS of Avgas available.

Thank you.

Hi Vince,

Ah, the 'hero to zero' comment hurt. But IF you ran out of fuel then the statement is true.

As you choose to only answer questions you want to answer, I will do the same.

The problem Vince is you have given an outline as to what happened, but when someone asks a specific question and you choose not to give an answer, and then someone else provides the information that seems credible and informed, that is used instead (rightly or wrongly).

As I have said before just trying to understand what happened, the final criticism (if there is any) will come from the CAA.

Yakker (just a PPL)

Wot??!! A lesson on listening and thinking from the intrepid Mr H???:\ Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Someone else put it rather politely in an earlier post:-

" You seem to be stuck on transmit."

But as you seem incapable of shutting up, listening and learning, Mr H, this one is very clearly for you:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

and one for you pilotmike: You may be better informed by all this but you are none the wiser! Vince

Vince,

Do you honestly believe your contributions here are in your best interest?

Squadgy. I wrote a long note to you, took some calls, returned and the damn thing was swallowed up when I had to log in again. Should have copied it before logging in!

On reflection I would like to talk through the detail with you but this would not be of interest to non CT owners. You can find my phone number (don't use the mobile as it is still in Dundee - somewhere) easily across the net, if you can get past the biggles bit!

Do call and I should like tio tell you about the experience.

Warm regards, Vince

ALL

I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.

This does mean that the AAIB will definitely get to see your postings, so you can be sure that no possibility that you raise will be ignored by officialdom.

Any CT owners who may have any issues with what I have written are welcome to get in touch by phone - but not on my mobile as that is still missing. A bit of googling (I am going to regret this - what if Yakker calls? will he give me his REAL name? Will he land in the tree at the bottom of my garden?) will get a contact number at home or work.

I really appreciate this enforced introduction to a rumour site - and can see that in some circumstances they could prove quite useful in uncovering "hidden" issues.

I am also pleased to have been able to exchange views with some really interested and interesting people I might not have ever met otherwise.

All the best to all of you, even those who think shooting is too good for me! Vince
Planned as "the last posting"

Ha!

I strongly doubt that anyone is better informed by anything you have said Mr H.

However, where we somehow agree is that nobody, not even you, have become any wiser. You're still 'stuck on transmit' I notice. Give it a break, please. You give every impression of being a complete furkin idiot who, apart from having many major aviation failings, just doesn't know when to shut up.

And that is surely the most curious example of decision making in this whole sorry saga. Good luck. I reckon you might need it!

Vince - many thanks for your offer. Please check your private messages.

Vince although this site allows people to use handles to cover thier identity it doesn't take long to work out who does what job, what hardware they drive and what their experence is.

Also quite a few meet up for beers. The controller who has given the "other side" of the story not only have I had acouple of beers with but also I have done a couple of hours in an aircraft before they renewed thier SEP and a fine pair of hands he had as well (apart from when he took my head off the ceiling)

You have three issues going on which I must admit most are lumping together.

The first one is your issues with ATC about controlled airspace. You will notice I haven't commented on this. But the posters on the subject from Scottish I can assure you have access to tapes and radar plots of what happened. And I believe you do have issues to deal with this.If I were you I would phone Scottish and ask to speak a manager and find out what they are saying.

The second one is your flight planning of the the route. I really don't see this as a henious crime, like PACE my exposure to the GA community has proved that you are not alone in getting into difficulties on this one.

The third is why the engine conked out when it did. Personally I think it was because of a technical issue linked with inexperence. Your thought proccesses of planting it where you did again comes down to inexperence. I hope they do a full investigation on the trip. If they do I for one will be using it for training other pilots.

Now you questions about turbines. First of all they are very hungry for fuel at low altitudes my own aircaft uses nearly double at 5000ft compared to FL230.

Second propellers are way more efficent than ducted fans which is why the turboprop market is becoming very strong, the whole economics compared to jets is remarkable when you start digging into it. Only down side is they are noisy and pax prefer jets. This is being worked on with active noise cancelation and other tricks.

The operation of a turbine is way more simple than a piston engine. Once you have got it started (some types take a bit more monitoring than others) it really is a very simple one lever operation (variable pitch prop issues outstanding)

So the idea is actually a good one but unfortunatly its not a viable option for VFR low level tourer. For a pilot to make it economic you need to fly high in controlled airspace and we know the dangers of that ;)

From Vince's precent post -

"I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form".

ROFLMAO. As I expect the AAIB will be , when not doing their officially serious bit.

I think the appropriate word, Vince, is Chutzpah !

It would be nice to believe you are unique, though sadly.. 'Nuff said.

Vince, I'm not sure you actually realise the seriousness of the predicament you found yourself in. OK, I guess you had a quick chat with you maker after the engine failed and subsequently breathed a sigh of relief when you clambered out of the wreckage. However, your subsequent actions/words are, to say the least, bizarre and must cast doubt on you competence as a pilot; to point the AAIB at a number of pprune posts rather than filing a formal report is frankly out of order. :=

To summarise, you had a notifiable crash and are required by law to report certain details (link at Air Accidents Investigation: Reporting an accident). You've got into a bit of a mess entering discussions here and consequently your recollection of actual events may have been slewed. Furthermore, whilst the AAIB will not apportion blame the authorities (ie CAA/police) may well look at an AAIB report and decide to take things further. As others have suggested, shut up, write a proper, objective and comprehensive report (don't post it here) and present it to the AAIB.

That's the spirit you show them who's boss Vince!

As an example of how easy this is, I once posted elsewhere (a place where I use my real name, nothing to do with aviation) "what's my PPRuNe handle?" and someone came back with the right answer in not-very-many minutes. Going the other way - from my PPRuNe handle to my real name - must be even easier. (I'd be using my real name on PPRuNe except that at the time I joined essentially nobody at all used their real name, and I didn't want to look odd.)

There was me thinking you were called Gertrude in real life :p

VH,

Please don't ignore an AAIB request for information by referring them here. It is not really cricket to ask them to trawl through the posts on here.

All they want at this stage is succinct facts from your recollection of the incident.

May I suggest you rewrite the form, or request another if you have already sent it off. The AAIB are a bunch of professional pilots, engineers and investigators who do not have the inclination to become involved in a debate on a bulletin board.

Thanks

Unless you actually go to the the bother of tracing his IP address then how do you actually even know that you are chatting with the unfortunate Biggles hero on here anyway?? He could be a troll! I'm sure it is him but can they really use this in any future court case? I personally think far too much importance is placed on these anonymous forums. Even tracing an IP address, what does that prove? I had three different friends all using my PC a few years ago and logging onto pprune, was I liable for what they posted?

Having said all that, if I were Vince I would NOT be posting on here!!...But then maybe I am Vince....wibble....:\

Come on guys', our Vince (if it is Vince) is having a laugh, isn't he???

Vince, as Mad Jock states, though we 'hide behind' user names the aviation world in Scotland is a very small one and many of us know who each other is.

For example, just on this thread alone, I was at OATS with Mad Jock many years ago and have had many a pint with him (I also remember him walking the streets of Oxford barefoot but that’s another story!). I have been on a couple of nights out in EDI many moons ago with 10W and enjoyed one of the hottest currys known to man. I have flown in close formation with CRX only a few months ago and we share a passion for a certain 'rubber band U/C' little aircraft. I have also been on the receiving end of a very good service from Fishbang and his team many times in a variety of aircraft.....thats to name but a few...

I have tried my best not to pass judgement to this point but I suspect as many others have suggested that you co-operate fully with the AAIB and take on board any recommendations they make with regards to further training requirements.

Best of luck however it goes and hopefully you'll come out the other side a better and safer pilot!

UA

Having watched this thread develop over the past week I do wonder about what makes some PPRuNers tick.

Vince has given his side of the story, if AVGH is indeed Biggles, which illustrates that , no matter how well we think we plan, things can go wrong. Initially I was somewaht sceptical about how the accident came about and quationed the ability of the pilot. However, what I have realised is that we all look at things slightly differently and there are not always rights and wrongs.

OK, if there has been an ATC infringement that does need to be seriously investigated and the AAIB need to be satisfied that there are no inherent problems with the aircraft design that contributed to the accident.

Frankly, until there is a full report we don't know and can't tell if fuel exhaustion was a cause or only a contributory factor ( fuel starvation due to low levels). As for his flight planning I can think of 20 different ways to plan a route from Barrow to Kinloss to avoid terrain, controlled airspace, obstacles, low cloud, etc. etc. and have any number of potential diversion airfields available as I flew north. Would any of these be any better than the direct track with Dundee as an diversion? - only in my opinion. And that's my point.

VH and any pilot should be free to plan what he/she sees as the most suitable route given the A/C available and the prevailing weather conditions. The responsibility rests with the PIC.

Was this flight carried out safely - I cannot judge, based on the hearsay evidence here. Certainly, there appear to have been issues with ATC at Scottish and around Edinburgh and, with hindsight, Vince may have cause to consider whether this transit at his chosen height was wise. If an infringement did occur then technically safety has been compromised.

The fuel planning is a matter for reflection because the decision to divert was made after the point at which it would have been obviuos thet Kinloss couldn't have been reached on remaining fuel. However, if there were 50 mins available this should have been plenty to divert to Dundee or an alternate.

If you accept Vince's account the engine failue may have been as a result of a low fuel state. The forced landing in the tree may have been as a result on inexperience and no PPLs practice forced landings enough. And even when they do they often make a mess of things when it happens for real - fact!

I didn't hear any of the radio work on the day but what goes for good RT in club flying will often sound amateurish against the clipped tones of professionals. Again, maybe some retraining is required but without a full transcript I will not judge.

Finally, can I say that I have heard some absolute howlers from fully trained commercial pilots at Edinburgh and elsewhere. Many are from foreign crew but there have been plenty form those that should know better. The best/worst of these was a Russian military A/C leaving edinburgh with a faulty transponder. They had no squawk and were told that Scottish wouldn't be able to acept them without one. These guys took off, turned right across the city and were last heard reporting enroute via newcastle!

Entertaining
 

This thread has made entertaining reading if nothing else - but it could have been even better if it had happened a year or so ago and he had diverted to Oban!

One thing useful to have come out of this debate has been that what some of us take for granted as being common knowledge is often no such thing.

For all his faults, Vince seems to have been completely unaware of the potential fuel indication and flow problems from a high wing, relatively flat dihedral aircraft with wing tanks. Most of us with experience of these types will probably be only too familiar with the potential isses, particularly those with experience of one or two of the microlights with this configuration that have had problems in the past (the Foxbat and CT spring to mind as two obvious candidates).

Vince seems to have been unaware that the usable fuel was less than the total fuel by 6 litres. He also seems to have been unaware of the fuel cross feed problem that can occur if the aircraft is flown slightly out of balance (as might be slightly more likely in a microlight that is just one-up and has no aileron trim).

In my own mind, based largely on Vince's own testimony, I'm certain that fuel starvation was the reason for the engine stoppage. I wonder if anyone thought to check the float bowls for fuel after the accident? If they were found to be empty then this would be a pretty good confirmation that this is what happened.

Having a few litres of fuel in the tank after the aircraft had run out of fuel would be completely normal for this type, of that I'm sure, so this is no proof at all that lack of fuel wasn't the cause.

How many pilot's aren't familiar with the technical details of their aircraft? It's in the syllabus for microlight pilots and I know that the old GFT included a bit on the ground at the end where the pilot was given an oral test of his/her understanding of some of the technical quirks of his/her aircraft. I wonder if this is still the case?

It seems clear that Vince was under the serious misapprehension that he had enough usable fuel for his journey, when it seems very obvious to some of us that he didn't and should have planned to take on fuel much sooner than he did.

I was always taught that trip planning included 30 mins extra reserve fuel for loitering about, extra climbs etc, plus however much extra was needed to take account of any probable en-route diversions due to weather. I think I'd have probably planned on about 45 mins to 1 hours extra fuel for the last leg of Vince's trip (Barrow to Kinloss), based on the information we've been given here.

Microlight fuel burn is notoriously susceptible to a wide variation, based on density, climb profiles, weight etc, which adds another big variable into the equation. My old microlight would cruise one-up with a burn of around 8 litres per hour, but could easily be pushed up to 12 litres per hour with a few long climbs, or in bad conditions (a 50% increase is significant if you've only got a small tank!). I always used to assume that it'd burn 12 litres per hour, then be pleasantly surprised if I didn't need to make a planned fuel stop. In my view I was being sensible, but my guess is that Vince might think I was just being daft not to assume that I'd always only burn 8 litres per hour...........

VP

Well, I might look odd compared to the rest of you, but I would seriously question who is out of step here.

Of course there are reasons why ATCOs and Professional Pilots prefer to remain anonymous, but those reasons do not apply to amateurs and I am quite sure that most people use their funny names simply because they feel like they are playing Secret Seven or Swallows and Amazons.

I am equally sure that the reason that people on here get so rude and unpleasant is because of the anonymity. I know that anyone who cares can find my eMail address and telephone number in seconds and that is a really good incentive not to call people w@nkers, to$$ers and complete furkin morons.

I wish a few others on here would change step.

I am more commonly on two other aviation forums. On PPL/IR real names are de rigeur and no-one is rude or unpleasant. On Flyer it is about half in half and Ian Seager occasionally has to tell us off and here it is 99/1 anonymity and no constructive dialogue is possible without people becoming unpleasant.

Surely the link can be made?

Nice summary Munnyspinner.

Well said Timothy, this thread has become very personal, rude and insulting. I believe that some posters have missed the point of the the forum.

Lets keep it professional people!

It is entertaining though, mind you if anyone prefers real vitriolic, check out the microlight web site!

Please provide a link

And after reading some of the microlight forums I don't think anyone here is taring the whole of the microlight community over this event.

Although your flex wings are a pain in the arse in the circuit and I wish you could strap something to them to paint on primary radar. :p

Mad Jock,

I did not suggest that there is an agenda against mirolighters, for your information, I fly sep, occasionally P2 in microlights including the CTSW.

Check out BMAA microlight forum for some real ding dongs!

Regards
T18

I agree it wasn't yourself, it was actually to a post on that very site, with a link to this thread.

The level of rudeness on this forum comes as a huge shock when one first encounters it. Certain posters set themselves up as aviation experts and poo-poo anything anyone with alleged less experience has to say.

After a while one learns to separate the wheat from the chaff and benefit from those who make a genuine contribution.

It goes without saying that not every poster is what they make themselves out to be.

As to using real names - well, taking the above into account is that not difficult to understand?

The laugh about this thread is that usually this kind of thread goes on endlessly about the stupidity of some or pilot who is now dead. In this case the pilot is alive and well and very much in the discussion!

Molesworth,

I would not call it shocking just typical. I wish I could sort out the wheat from the chaff but as with most flying forums there is little to gain except some entertainment from threads involving accidents.
No doubt I`ll get slated for saying so but I couldn`t give a toss.

If this thread ever gets back on track I`ll buy everyone a pint, including biggles himself:ok:

And, I suspect, winding a few of you up.