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Vince (Biggles) You are a Hero :ok: You brought a lot of colour and entertainment into these dull grey forums with your adventures.
I have a secret admiration for colourful people who bend the norm and challenge convention in all walks of life. Makes our drab lives a bit more interesting. Hope old Vince is back in the skies. Maybe his next adventure will be taking pictures of exploding volcanos above their core. Bet he survives that too :E Pace |
You gonna fly P2 with him?
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You gonna fly P2 with him? Pace |
I'll fly P2 with him.....
On Microsoft Flight Sim FSX!:ok: |
Known as Biggles was Vince
His airmanship enough to make anyone wince twas a golf course near Dundee where he chose to land on the first tree and possibly hasn't been flying since! |
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Good Lord, has he been charged with anything?
There but for the grace of God go I, but some of all that is just muppet behaviour. An endurance of nearly an hour more than the (test pilot's) book figures isn't going to be achievable now is it? And as for the IR flying in Class A airspace in a VLA on an NPPL? That's not even trying to play the game properly. |
How about the "Pilot not able to reconstruct a complete record of his flying experience" bit, when a record is a mandatory requirement.
MOGAS at 9 000' No apparent RT license As for his own theories on endurance, and son't start me on the airspace bust......:mad: Vince, I have no doubt you will be on here later with a load of self justifying bull**** and some tale about how Worrals of the WAAF would have knitted some more fuel. I hope the CAA throw a lot of very heavy books at you. I hope for his sake that your instructor can demonstrate that he did train you properly as in the current climate he is likely to be answering some very stiff questions. Do us all a big favour, realise that no thanks to you and ALL thanks to your utter stupidity and arrogance you have written off an aircraft, risked the lives of by-standers and brought general aviation in the UK into the light of some very poor publicity. Like many on here I earn my living in the air and spend my spare time with small fun aeroplanes and the wonderful people who fly them. Please go and take up golf or bowls or something where your amazing exploit can impress others, in 30 years of holding a license I have never read such an AAIB report, you should be utterly ashamed, you are a total disgrace. SND |
SND....wow that told him!!;)
Its incidents like this that make me wonder why the CAA allow reduced hours in gaining a NPPL as opposed to a PPL....its just as easy to bust controlled airspace and endanger your's and others life's flying LAA type aircraft as your run of the mill spamcan!!! Never really made sense to me :cool::cool: |
Its incidents like this that make me wonder why the CAA allow reduced hours in gaining a NPPL as opposed to a PPL |
Hmmm....interesting reading indeed. Only a week or so ago, I saw someone else run their aircraft dry of fuel too. Was at a major airport also...causing grief for several commercial aircraft, either sent to the hold or delayed on the ground.
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Well look at that flight path - almost overhead Scone... Wouldn't dropping in there have been so easy?
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I really dont think lack or standard of training is the issue here at all, more to do with Vince's "I know better / rules dont apply to me" attitude which I suspect is unlikely to change.
Vince, I can only hope that you learn something from this experience about yourself, aviation is not the sort of activity you can participate in and expect to survive for long with such an attitude, you got lucky this time, if your ever allowed to fly again the outcome might be far more serious next time. I personally hope Vince is never let loose in the sky at the controls of anything in the future and the CAA use the oppertunity to make an example of him. Regards UA |
It seems the pilot looked at the gauges and believed them -- after all, how can a sight tube malfunction?
But fairness requires acknowledgement he had substantial help from the manufacturer in running out of gas. The GPS trace shows all sorts of fields just North of town. If you want to stretch your fuel, you really need to work on field selection:} |
Press have picked up on it, thankfully they are being rather kind and have made no mention of the more serious possibilities involving the EDI airspace bust.
BBC News - 'Biggles' crash pilot made fuel error 'Biggles' crash pilot had miscalculated flight fuel - Scotsman.com News |
I wonder how much more circling, while looking for a good tree to roost in, would have taken place if more fuel had been available? ;) (diag 3 in AAIB report).
Rans6.... |
At the time 'Biggles' said on various posts:
I had permission to cross Edinburgh CTA under the watchful eye of Scottish Radar. Stuff about Scottish Radar seems to be from one person listening in. Maybe a pilot? Let the Inspector decide. re Controller - of course, but I asked permission before entering the area and was granted. I entered at 7,000 feet and left at 10,000 ft having made two requests for level changes cos of cloud tops. I was not light headed and flew down to 7,000 immediately north of the CTA. Thank you for your preview of the report to AAIB. Sorry to say there are a number of inaccuracies - such as I did speak to Edinburgh and they referred me to Scottish who gave me a squalk and confirmed it before entering. And I was transferred out to Inverness (not Edinburgh) by Scottish, but was out of range at that point. my changes of flight level were with the permission of Scottish. How did that endanger anyone? they had me on radar and my track and levels were both cleared. I was given the instruction to notify them if I made any significant turns but I did not. I am as keen as anyone else to discover if there were errors but your detailed note, whilst showing a lot of knowledge of the circumstances, shows just how important it is to have an independent investigation that has all the facts, not just some, before it. At least a court would start with the facts and hear both sides. You appear willing to do neither. During this climb the aircraft entered Class A airspace at FL85 over Eskdalemuir, exiting into Class D airspace as it crossed into the Scottish TMA approximately 10 nm further north. At 1440 hrs the pilot contacted the Scottish Area Control Centre (SACC), advising his intended route and his wish to climb to 9,000 ft to remain clear of cloud. The controller cleared the aircraft on track to Kinloss and asked the pilot to advise her before making any “big turns” because the aircraft was in the “TMA environment” and potentially in conflict with aircraft under her control bound for Edinburgh. As the aircraft approached the lateral limits of the Edinburgh Control Area (CTA) from the south, the pilot requested and was cleared to make a further climb to 10,000 ft in order to remain clear of cloud. Five minutes later the pilot reported ‘cloud ahead the base looks quite high could I have permission to descend 5,000 ft same heading ’. Initially, SACC cleared the aircraft to FL70, due to traffic in the CTA, and instructed the pilot to contact Edinburgh Radar. The pilot read back the correct frequency but had not made contact with Edinburgh ATC before the aircraft entered the CTA. It exited the CTA northbound at an altitude of approximately 4,500 ft and continued to descend to 2,000 ft. The pilot held a National Private Pilot’s Licence which does not permit flight under instrument flight rules and therefore does not permit flight in Class A airspace. There is no record of the pilot holding a valid flight radio telephony operator’s licence at the time of the flight. Flight in Class D airspace requires a clearance either via radio telephony or by prior arrangement. The commander of an aircraft flying in an aerodrome traffic zone is required to obtain permission to do so from the associated ATC unit and to maintain a continuous watch for instructions (though not necessarily by radio). The Edinburgh ATC unit reported entry of the aircraft into the CTA without clearance as an infringement. Infringement of controlled airspace and flight within the Edinburgh ATZ without permission did not directly affect the outcome. If on the other hand, you have accepted the AAIB report and the failings which it has highlighted in your performance, and have taken appropriate instruction or guidance to bring yourself up to a safe standard of flying, then I wish you every success for future flights and welcome you in to the airspace as a fellow aviator who can display the necessary competence and skill which is required by us all. |
Is anybody else reading "Biggles"'s posts in the voice of Count Arthur Strong... YouTube - Count Arthur Strong's Radio Show
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"Maybe what GA needs is an airfield or two, positioned in such a way that aircraft could make this journey without stretching the fuel so much. How about airfields at...... say.....Carlisle and Perth? That might be ideal for such a journey. "
Dont be a crazy fool, you'll be expecting airfields at Cumbernauld and Glenrothes next! :rolleyes: ;) |
By strange coincidence the report has come out exactly one year to the day after the accident.
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By strange coincidence the report has come out exactly one year to the day after the accident. Glorious Twelfth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
I'm normally one of those that 'waits for the report to come out' but in this case I did pass comment early on in this thread. Enough primary evidence came straight from the horses mouth to suggest that the root cause of this accident was a serious lack of airmanship on the part of the pilot. Having read the diplomatic but still damning report I feel vindicated in all the mean thoughts I had about 'our hero'.
Even amateur aviation requires a degree of professionalism which was clearly woefully lacking in Vince. Low ability combined with a bad attitude and a complete failure to apply a serious mindset to the task of operating an aircraft meant this accident was a given. Whilst Vince no doubt still sees it as a jolly adventure I doubt very much whether he realises what a danger he posed to innocent third parties particularly those on the ground and the occupants of airliners in the airspace he bust. Just to put the boot in further, the fact that Vince didn't fly at a constant altitude or speed at any point during the flight suggests that he's not the most talented of pilots, as does his amazing ability to avoid a number of fields potentially suitable for a forced landing in open countryside and instead shoehorn the aircraft into a treetop in a built up area. I'm normally reasonably charitable but in this case think old Vince is a lost cause who should stay away from aircraft in future. Perhaps that decision will be made for him by the relevant authorities. I wonder how long before he returns to this thread with more delusional arrogance and self-justification. |
I'm normally one of those that |
Interesting reading.
Not defending Vince by any means here but I think some should be perhaps a little less... "aggressive" with their posts/views. It's obvious to all through reading the report what the problems and causes were here, and I will not condone those, in fact it makes for worrying reading, but let's hang back a bit. It's not up to any of us to publicly castigate the guy and act as judge, jury and executioner. The CAA will decide what happens to the pilot involved, if anything, based on the conclusions from the AAIB. If the CAA feels there is a genuine safety issue here (no comment) then they will take the necissary action. The decision will not be made by a group of mostly anonymous posters on an internet forum, but the appropriate regulatory authority, and we should respect that, as the CAA are very good at taking action on people who make our hobby/career dangerous, putting themselves and others at risk. They will not stand for it, and we should all back them up and respect whatever action they take. I read a lot of prattish comments on PPRuNE on a regular basis. Like people who think it's OK to pick up a wing drop at the stall using aileron. Or a few weeks back when I read a comment by someone saying it's perfectly OK to fly in 3000m vis., VFR, as long as you are following a GPS. Or people who find it perfectly acceptable to attempt a turn back following an EFATO at a few hundred feet AGL. Just to quote a few examples. If these people think they know better then God help us all. Closing thought: whilst many of us are sensible and would not get in this sort of situation, or at least we'd like to think that way, how would you feel if you were the subject of an AAIB report, with personal comments being directed at you from all angles on PPRuNE? Time we all chilled out a little chaps. :) Smithy |
Capt. Smithy, I've thought about what you say, but I'm not convinced.
I might have been more persuaded if Vince hadn't represented himself on here as he did, and as often or as recently (after having seen a draft of the report) as he did. Frankly, he's dangerously incompetent and unwilling to admit it. That's a valid opinion and IMO unarguable, and it is worth expressing so that other naive readers don't get taken in by bluster. Sorry, Vince, but the truth sometimes has to hurt - before reality does. |
Smithy apart from the fact he didn't have a RT lic and couldn't produce his log book as said previously all the main issues happen in Scotland. So they could go for the paper work charges down south which he would be daft to try and contest.
The CAA has no powers of prosecution in Scotland. It will be the proc fiscal in your own fair city who will decide if we get to hang the bast... opps sorry ;) And whats wrong with flying in 3k viz VFR? Thats what I did my CPL test in, in the vale of York and I didn't have a GPS. Anyway people will want to express their disgust at his actions all over again mainly because of his attitude post accident. If he had fessed up and proclaimed "I f'd up" the reaction would be different. There is a load of good learning points in that report for both experenced and student pilots. Unfortunately as previously said the pilots that could actually get the most benefit from the learning points will be the ones least likely to read it. Yes he was a prat on numerous issues, I don't think this will be the last we hear on this accident. Now the report is out the legal system can start turning. |
I read a lot of prattish comments on PPRuNE on a regular basis Or a few weeks back when I read a comment by someone saying it's perfectly OK to fly in 3000m vis., VFR, as long as you are following a GPS With references to legal documents please, where appropriate. |
Capt. Smithy, while some of what you say appears reasonable, my understanding is that much of the flak the gentleman has attracted was generated by the tenor of his postings here, his press comments and subsequent corroboration from people who know him. And of course what is now documented as some pretty shoddy airmanship. Colin McRae was a friend of mine, but that did not make him any less blameworthy..
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I will call you a prattish IO :p
You shouldn't have used the GPS. Use the force IO, use the force. |
If he had fessed up and proclaimed "I f'd up" the reaction would be different. More or less agreeing with Smithy: it's easy enough to have an opinion post-factum. Opinions are plenty, and cheap. Especially since the days of internet. |
This is a discussion board and so surely aviators of various persuasions are free to discuss matters of interest and express their opinions. In fact 'our man' has positively encouraged discussion with his personal contributions, some of which were so ill-advised as to raise questions about his competence as a pilot. Furthermore, unlike many accident threads, this thread was based largely on the first hand accounts of those involved and is now based on the published official findings. Not exactly idle speculation.
Flying is an unforgiving activity and at some point positivity, optimism and fluffiness have to give way to some hard-nosed realism. In my opinion, the chap concerned is a liability to himself and a danger to other users of the sky and it would be best for all concerned if he moved on to another, less risky, hobby. I sympathise to a limited extent. Not many people find training to be a pilot an easy ride, and most will have had 'eye-opening' moments at some point, but when someone reaches the limits of their talent so readily, you have to wonder if maybe they're just not cut out for piloting. There isn't an automatic right to be a pilot, and those who are not safe shouldn't be up there. Tough titty. Just my opinion. Many pages back our hero incredibly stated that he was simply going to refer the AAIB inspector to his comments on this thread rather than fill in the official paperwork despite most of his inputs setting alarm bells ringing in the rest of us. Clearly he didn't think he'd done anything wrong at all. He even stated repeatedly that he had not run out of fuel and that it wasn't a crash. Now read the AAIB report again. This guy seems incapable of self-critique even after stacking a perfectly serviceable aeroplane into a treetop and bonging controlled airspace inhabited by airliners with hundreds of people down the back. Sure, it's not my decision whether or not he flies again, but I'd feel more comfortable if he and his ilk didn't. |
One thing I've learned is to go by people's actions |
I have to agree with Torque Tonight above, but I think there is a deeper question which needs to be asked: how can one graduate from the PPL sausage machine in the first place having received such apparently poor training, and then how does one get through the 2-yearly checks? The answer to the latter is easy enough (they are meaningless). The answer to the former is not so easy.
Yesterday I went for a local flight to check out some newly installed avionics, Upon returning, found some poor chap in the circuit who, according to ATC was flying at an estimated 400ft, and had to be told which way to turn in order to land. He sounded OK on the radio... IMHO one learns little having a go at the pilots in these cases. It has to go further back. |
One thing I've learned is to go by people's actions |
Going back to the report, it says he relied on fuel consumption of 12 litres/h for his calculations. What cruise speed would that achieve in a CTSW, is it even remotely feasible to use that figure? I generally allow 20l/h in my Europa which gives 125kts (although it has the 914 engine when the turbo isn't being used figures are fairly similar to the 912)
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You can get the fuel burn on a 912S down to 12lph, but you are not going to go anywhere very quickly and in this case he was flying into a headwind which would make it even more of a problem.
Rod1 |
The Courier - 'Biggles' Vince Hagedorn keen to take to the skies again
Speaking from Philadelphia, Mr Hagedorn said he could not comment on the AAIB report because of unspecified "ongoing action." He added, "The key point I would make from the report was that the cause of the engine stopping was not running out of fuel, as was reported at the time." The 64-year-old said the flight planning had been carried out with two other people at Walney Island airfield, where the journey began. The allegation he had entered controlled airspace was "debatable," said Mr Hagedorn, and there was ongoing dialogue with the CAA over the radio licence issue. He added, "I haven't flown since the crash — I have been incredibly busy over the last 12 months — but I would love to fly again. In fact, I have already chosen my next aircraft." |
Looks like he's still in denial and blaming others. Poor show.
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The point of the AAIB reports is to let us learn from the misfortunes and mistakes of others. In that spirit I am trying to learn from this report.
Re licences: check before flight. Re airspace busts: 1) Even if you 'know' where you are, talk to ATC. 2) If uncertain of position, tell ATC early on. Re fuel exhaustion: 1) use good data for fuel planning 2) do FREDA checks to monitor actual usage 3) land if low fuel is suspected Re emergency landing sites: 1) Avoid towns. 2) Turn into wind early. Have I missed anything? |
Not sure about turning into wind 'early'.
It is important to know what the wind direction is without having to think about it, so draw a big arrow on your chart before setting off, however minor the journey. Landing into wind is useful for obvious reasons, but if you have the height, travelling downwind will cover more ground and may help you spot a better landing site. Then, do the PFL circuit you've practised loads of times and land into wind. |
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