Tha accident report will be a classic :ok:

I bet the BMAA wish he had stayed in bed. You can just imagine the AAIB guy getting stuck in yet again with comments like “unsafe culture”, when it was just one guy with no ability to plan his fuel.

Rod1

"when it was just one guy with no ability to plan his fuel"

Not sure thats a fair summation Rod1? Sounds like there's a whole bunch of 'no ability to's that could feature in the report. However the ability to survive them is quite something.

Surely there was enough room...
 

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Pilot: Biggles tale saved me

A single engine light aircraft like this? Must have been able to land it on a fairway... "But I was surely going to die..."

Oh dear.

not if there were golfers on the fairway.. or a par 3 dogleg.

small aircraft - big landing run
 

I did once overshoot a half mile field on a hang glider. But it was my very first high flight, I hit a thermal, and did not recognise it. My total flying time up to that point was about five minutes. :bored:

Perhaps there was no biggles story involving a forced landing on a par 5? :O

Had the donk stopped before his landing?

I'm not sure what purpose the AAIB report will serve, to be honest. It will catalogue the series of accidents-waiting-to-happen that eventually did happen, it will give us transcripts, show his track, demonstrate his poor pre-flight planning, poor judgement etc., but to what end? Most who read it will laugh, and those who will make similar mistakes in the future probably won't even read it.

It'll cost £1,000s, be completed with utmost professionalism by the AAIB staff, but will it prevent another similar incident? No, because AAIB have countless others in the files, and they didn't prevent this one.

I'm sending him an email asking if I can use his Lotto numbers, though :E

Biggles flies undone*
 

"Algy, I don't like it here one bit" shouted the intrepid aviator to his trusty but blind navigator. " We seem to be in the thick of it!"

" I thought that maybe by routing across the Forth, just to the east of the airport we might avoid these heavies around Edinburgh, slip under the Leuchars radar and have a clear run to sunny Kinross, somewhere near bonny Dundee." Trilled the Algy.

" aye, right...." came the dulcit tones of the ATC " ...what the **** do you think you are doing? You've completely screwed up my approach!"

"Wilco, roger.... oh , erm... request FL90 routing via somewhere near Dundee to Kinross, I think, on a heading of....uhm...Northish" responded Algy whose right finger was following a thick chinagraph line haphazardly drawn on a A-Z Map of Scotland. " at least that's what the GPS says."

" Are you sure Dundee Airport has bunkers and trees, old boy? I'm thinking we should maybe pop in for a spot of fuel and maybe, check our directions? According, to my flight plan we should be visual with Inverness by now. Bugger, more of that low cloud!" Biggles turned to Algy, whose white scarf billowed in the wind as he gingerly stepped out of the aircraft onto the shaking bough of a rather sturdy oak tree.

" It's Okay Capt. Good news! These chaps out here say that we're in a wrecked airplane forty feet up a tree. Bad news, is that the club captain says they have a dress rule and a £5 fine for wearing dayglo vests!"

"phew....for one awful moment there I thought I might have to make an emergency landing onto these rather fetching fairways - on such a lovely clear day, perfect for golf. I hope we didn't put anyone off their stroke" replied Biggles, surveying the scant remains of his latest aerial mount " Still, once we get this kite patched up we should still make Kinloss for tea!"

"Kinloss? questioned Algy as he tripped carelessly towards the 15th green, "I thought were going to Kinross! If I had know you wanted to fly over the Cairngorms I might have filled the tanks this morning! It can get a bit edgy up there you know."

"never mind old bean, I'm still new at this game, we'll have another go in the morning"

* Title courtesy of Mony Python

With all due respect, the guy did have every right to be there and was under no obligation to stick rigidly to FL's, avoid IFR traffic etc. Not commenting on the actions of the controller involved who I'm sure did indeed do well, just the apparent perception amongst some here that "ultralite" aircraft should not get so high, despite the fact it was the open FIR

"A light aircraft has made an emergency landing in a school playground in the US state of Arizona.
The plane came down at Villa de Paz Elementary School in Avondale after developing an engine problem.
No-one was injured in the incident"
BBC NEWS | Americas | Plane lands in school playground

No doubt the pilot was wrestling with the controls to avoid the golf course and made a text book approach on to the school playground to give the kids some fun :}

Sounds a bit like the tree or the golfcourse :E

No wonder the non flying community thinks that aviation is a bit dangerous!

Come on chaps - let's try and avoid the avoidable accidents!

Having seen the BBC Biggles piece, I hope our hero is as gushingly expansive about the whole flight preceeding 'so there I was, above the fairway'.

Money on a lot of UK pilots being in conversation with family, friends, and colleagues very soon.... "did you see that bit on the BBC News last night.... right at the end?". I think I'll take a day off.

Mariner,
Except it wasnt open FIR it was the Scottish TMA, 9000-10000 ft over the Forth Road Bridge (which is where the first of the chaos ensued) is controlled airspace. Hence the workload issue.
Also for the record, although I fly to pay the mortgage, a good chunk of my income goes into owning and flying an aircraft of similar weight if not less than Captain 'Biggles' dropped. Anti-'ultralite' I am not. Open FIR fly as high as you like.

CRX.

FISBANG could pick up the details regarding airspace and the like, such as did he have permission to enter the TMA or not.

Each time I get into an aircraft with my flight planned and my fuel calculated and my endurance known (and more than adequate for the flight) I should feel really proud of myself about saving my life and avoiding a catastrophe then? Gosh - I thought it was just part of being a pilot.

Heavens don't let this get out, they'll all be doing weight and balance calcs next....:D

The televised interview was pretty cringeworthy.
Unfortunately deluded psuedo-pilots like this are free to transgress any controlled airspace that they are probably unaware of.
It struck me in the interview that he thought his actions were somehow praiseworthy :rolleyes:
Sorry, but every daft old coot that operates like this just heralds more and more pressure to enact further legislation, which unfortunately adversely affects the majority who do make an effort to be a teensy weensy bit professional in their recreational aviation.
If you see it from the viewpoint of professional aircrew forced to share his airspace, or the ATC bods having to deal with the actions of this clown, it really isn't so funny.:=

Captain Playstation

Do you have a link to a clip of that interview?

I must admit to feeling sorry for the guy earlier on.
A very low time pilot getting into a mess and having a hard lesson of an accident from which he would learn and grow to be a better pilot through it.

he should have slunk off with his tail between his legs to lick his wounds with a degree of humility.

But to create an accident which is totally your own fault and to then try to claim credit for handling that accident is totally inexcusable and doesnt bode well for his future as a pilot.

In that regard the guy is a menace.

Pace

Pace, post No 48 above.

standard of training or standard of examination?

I'm torn on this one.

We all have to learn and only by pushing our own boundaries will we progress. This guy, by all accounts, is still relatively inexperienced and he was making a fairly long X country flight in unfamilier airspace - but, there has to be a first time.

His judgement must be questioned and perhaps so does his training. The NPPL isn't or shouldn't be seen as some easy ticket. Unfortunately, the standard of airmanship exhibited by the pilot here does not inspire confidence.

As Air police correctly points out, the most obviuos and direct track from Walney Island would route well to the west of Dundee. I don't know the actual track but there is anecdotal information relating to conflict with EDI approach and his crossing of the Forth. Whether this was through, to the east or west of the Edinburgh CTR has not been established, however, the best track would have avoided it completely.

The pilot mentions a diversion due to poor weather. If we give him the benefit of the doubt, this may have taken him East towards Dundee and let's suppose he was trying to return to his original planned track when his fuel state became an issue. However, I just can't understand how he got to where he ended up without considering, as he was passing with Perth on the port wing and Dundee to starboard, whether he had enough fuel to get him over the mountains to Kinloss - or for that matter, almost twice the distance, around the coast.

Simple maths pre flight and ATA compated with ETA would indicate if his endurance expectations were within limits or not. A quick stop for fuel may take an extra half hour but serve as a useful break for such any pilot, novice or not. Get theritis strikes again!

Opportunities came and went. FREDA checks were probably repeated by rote without thought. Navigation and radio work perhaps filled the pilots mind whilst his aeroplane gradually ran out of fuel - or is this man going to claim unexplained engine failure?

A grand day out very nearly became his last. The fact is that guys like this pose a greater danger to themselves than others but it does the rest of us a disservice when anyone, inadequatley prepared, takes to the air and has an accident. There are some very bright people who are just not cut out as pilots that's why aptitude testing can be so useful. We all know folk like this man and we shouldn't ignore their inadequacies as pilots nor seek to have them banned. Educate them. Fly with them. Spend time helping them. share your experiences and they will grow as pilots.

I'm abroad at the moment and have just watched an interview with this "pilot" on BBC World.
I can only suggest that this man lives in some sort of dreamworld where the CAA and AAIB do not exist. Of course, it may be that he is extremely clever, realises that he might be in a bit of trouble on the old sufficient fuel front and is going for the "I'm barking mad" defense.
However, whilst any pilot might cringe in embarassment at this story, the general public, if I go by what I hearing at this bar in Narita, think he is a wonderful chap who's gritted his teeth, done the decent thing by crashing into a tree and thereby saved hundreds of lives at the golf club, school, nunnery etc.
Book, film..?

I would suggest that in this case it might be better if the general public go on thinking that. It will all have blown over by the time the full facts come out so why stoke the anti-aviation fires in the meantime?

Tree or fairway, in his tv interview he says that he opted against landing on a fairway due to obstructions (like trees) so he made a possibility reality by going straight for the tree. If that was not mad enough (he had run out of fuel flying around Scotland as the sole occupant of an aircraft with a 1000nm range when fully fueled) he then flew into the tree at "about 70 kts"!!!!!!!!! I don't know what speed a CT stalls at but I guess it is about 35 kts although with one POB and no fuel it is probably lighter. Life would be boring if everyone was the same I guess, at least he is alive and willing to share his madness, and hopefully someone will learn from it. :O

Because I believe I and most of the posters on this Private Flying board are professional pilots ie people who have spent thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours achieving the experience and skills required to pilot private aircraft. I think if we see evidence of someone operating or acting outside of the standards which we have trained for we have every right to comment on it. Whilst the full facts of this incident will not come out until the AAIB investigation is published, this man has decided to speak to the media today using a 1940's story book analogy to justify the results of his admission of fuel starvation.
Quite frankly, I don't care if the general public know that some of us find that unacceptable.

He may be a graduate in maths but evidently can't do simple arithmetic on fuel burn.
Given his theoretical qualifications, he should be ruddy well ashamed of himself. Not the sort of example that GA needs.

Broadly, I'm with Reheat and others. He doesn't need banning but he sure as heck need some 'mentoring', supposedly his specialisation.

Selfish at best. Well done everyone involved for helping him out of a mess of his own making.

I note someone who claims to know him implies he is 'hard work'. Can he be taught? - or is he going to bumptiously continue quoting Biggles? Heck, lots of us like(d) Biggles, and Capt W E Johns wrote soem fine yarns, but really !

We all make mistakes, but this chap's attitude beggars belief

My guess is that the biggest barrier he will have to surmount before getting airborne again will be persuading an insurance company to take him on. That might be quite a big issue, which perhaps is no bad thing.

The Biggles story has made it across the pond!

NOSJOURNAAL - Avonturenverhaal redt leven piloot

This guy is surely Giles Wemmbley-Hogg!? He's in the great English upper class tradition of bumbling idiots breezing through life totally oblivious to the wreckage piling up in their wake, and always approaching life with an optimistic smile. You could argue Biggles was just such a man. Part of me (the South part) says we should celebrate such a positive attitude to life, but North says the person he most reminds me of is someone who ended up dead with his wife on a Perthshire hillside a few years back.

We all know people who fly who we think are dangerous. It's very difficult making the decision (as an instructor, or an examiner, or simply an observing fellow pilot) to do something about it.

NS

Precautionary or forced landing?
 

What I have not been able to establish from this thread is whether this was a precautionary landing becaue he was low on fuel or a forced landing because he was out of fuel with the engine stopped whilst trying to make it to Dundee airport. With all the comments in his interview about choosing the treees rather than the fairway (do they not have fields in Scotland?) and about choosing to land at 35 knots rather than 70 knots, I get the impression that there was an element of choice in picking the tree canopy and "pancaking" into it.
I have had a look at the CTSW website - it seems a lovely little aircraft and a shame it has ended up like that. Its cruise endurance when full of fuel is enormous - it is a bladder busting 6 to 7 hours, and much longer when flying economically. I am sure the AAIB are going to draw lots of lessons for the rest of us from this.

All I shall say about this is this:

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

As for whoever did his training:

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies...ghting0025.gif

As for ATC:

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/love/love0030.gif

NS
I agree..I was offered a flight with a guy who scared me the last time I flew. I refused and on his return to his local field he managed to put the plane off the runway and into a field. No damage to the plane or persons so not a reportable accident. He lives to fly another day but would you ever want to fly with him?

I dont think you can blame the guy that trained him. he did his training years ago, then was not seen untill recently and wanted to fly again. i could be wrong, but i do not beleve the person that trained him took him for the re-validation for reasons i assume only the aaib will find out.

It never ceases to amaze me how Pprune allows such personal slurs on named individuals to go unmoderated. I agree with C42's earlier post that he should be wished a speedy recovery.

I'd hazard a guess if any of us dared launch such remarks of stupidity / idiocy / danger to others at a professionally qualified pilot that had been named on a thread it would be closed pdq. I have flown commercially with some clowns who have done some dangerous things over the years that I don't wish to remember but I wouldn't go shaming them when they'd been named on a public forum.

This old chap has children and grandchildren. If I was one of them stumbling across this thread I'd be hurt at what's been written by some.

In this case, I fear freedom of speech is not something to be celebrated when I read the sad indictment of how people love to scoff at other's mistakes.

Couple of points from the news report:

"I stalled onto the trees..."

"I was doing something like 70kts on impact...just before impact..."

From the P & M Aviation website: The Flight Design CTSW Performance

PM Aviation

Stall speed Vs1 ( Flaps –8` ) 43kts
Stall speed Vs2 ( Flaps –0` ) 40kts
Stall speed Vs0 ( Flaps -40') 34kts

:confused:

Kiltie

In my earlier posts I had some sympathy for him as we have all done something in the past in aviation which made us think " that was pretty stupid thank god I got away with it".

His lack of experience and very low hours further got my sympathy.

Most of us faced with such a big lesson have humility. It makes us examine what we have done. We might even grab an instructor and beg that he sorts out a gap in our flying.

So far this guy doesnt appear to accept any responsibility for the accident that befell him but seems to revel in his own heroism at saving his kneck and those on the ground.

He hardly was a victim of an aircraft failure who braved all odds to bring his aircraft down safely and in the process risked his life further to avoid hurting others.

Infact he appears to have unilaterally created this accident by appalling airmanship and flying skills.

To run out of fuel is in itself totally unnaceptable.

What did he think? that he could stop at a gas station midair? or park up if the engine stopped?

We do have to question whether the training for a NPPL is adequate.

Someone will have to examine how so many errors could possibly occur in a pilot trained to a standard which allowed this guy to achieve a NPPL.

Maybe the blame lies there and not with the pilot?

Pace

From the Press and Journal interview:


Plane came to rest 40ft up tree Businessman escapes with minor injuries
Biggles saved my life, says pilot after golf course crash
By Mark Dowie

Published: 13/08/2009

A pilot escaped after his plane crashed into a tree on a Dundee golf course yesterday.

The two-seat microlight became lodged in branches high above the ground, leaving Vince Hagedorn stranded.

Firefighters used a 44ft ladder to rescue the 63-year-old, who was trapped for about an hour.

Last night a relieved Mr Hagedorn, of Chelmsford, in Essex, told how a childhood love for the Biggles books “saved his life".

He said: “Captain W.E. Johns saved my life. As a boy, I remember reading a Biggles story where he was shot down over enemy lines and was flying over a wooded area. He managed to “pancake” the plane sideways into a tree, which minimised the impact and he walked away unscathed.

"In the moment before impact, I was doing about 70 knots and still managed to think, ‘What would Biggles do?'"

From his hospital bed at the A&E department of Ninewells Hospital in Dundee, where he was taken, Mr Hagedorn, a business management consultant, told of his amazing brush with death.

Mr Hagedorn, who has four years' flying experience in his own plane, a German-built Flight Design CT-SW, said: “I left Barrow-in-Furness in the morning and was heading for RAF Kinloss, where I had been cleared to land, to visit my daughter, Maggie, at Lossiemouth.

“I was just north of Dundee when I checked my fuel gauges and it said it was half full, but when I checked the wing gauges, one said it was empty and the other said I had only half an hour left of flying.”

Mr Hagedorn said he looked at his charts and saw he would have to land at either RAF Leuchars or Dundee – and Dundee was closer.

“But because I was north of the city, and the airfield to the south, I would've had to fly over the built-up city, which was not a good idea,” he said.

“Aside from not flying over the city population, I didn't like the look of the oil rigs and the bridges over the Tay, so I turned around.

“I saw a crop field which I thought looked fine for an emergency landing but, as I turned right, the engine cut.

“I called the Dundee tower and said, ‘Mayday, mayday, mayday', and I was losing height rapidly.

“I saw that there was a small housing estate in front of the crop field, so I had to rule it out.

“If I hit a house, I would be killed instantly, and I would also kill others, so I looked elsewhere and saw the golf course.”

He said he could not land on the fairway because there were too many trees – “so I lined up the tree and did what Biggles did, and stalled, and pancaked into it.”

Mr Hagedorn, who was thrown forward in the crash and suffered bruised ribs, a grazed side and bump on the head, conceded he was “overall very lucky”.

He was the only person on board. No one on the golf course was injured.

The Flight Design CTSW microlight came to rest 40ft up the tree, near the 15th hole of the Caird Park Golf Course, about 4.50pm.

Andrew Blacklaw was playing the 13th hole when the plane crashed and he was one of several golfers who called the emergency services.

He said: “We looked up and saw it gliding past over the fairway.

“It looked like he was going to land there but the plane went up again and went into the tree.”

Mr Blacklaw, 26, of Longtown Road, Dundee, said the pilot was in a jovial mood despite the accident.

“We shouted up to see if he was OK,” he said. “He said that he needed a ladder and joked that he was our new branch manager.

“He said he’d run out of petrol and that his glasses had cut his head.”

Club secretary Greg Martin praised Mr Hagedorn for using his skills to avoid nearby houses and roads.

He said: “It’s incredibly lucky and it looks like it was a good bit of pilot skill on his part.”

Tayside Fire and Rescue’s group manager Pat Walmsley said the pilot had been lucky.

He said: “It appears he got into difficulties above Dundee and may have attempted to land on the golf course.

“We assessed the situation and were able to speak to him from the ground.

“We got a ladder up and checked whether or not the plane needed to be secured.”

Mr Walmsley said the aircraft was lodged between a fork in the branches, with another branch supporting it from below.

“We checked how badly injured he was and checked with the trauma team, who were happy for us to bring him down,” he said.

Mr Walmsley added that the pilot was able to climb down the ladder by himself, with the aid of a safety harness and walk to a waiting ambulance.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) said it would be investigating the incident.

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Readers' Comments
Well done Biggles .. I grew up with him too, but I don't know that I'd have had the presence of mind to recall his adventures, in a crisis situation! Well done, Mr Walmsley, glad you weren't badly injured.
Susie Main






CRX.

It might of course be that the chap was still suffering from a degree of shock when he was interviewed and will find the Biggles comment even more cringeworthy than the rest of us. Possibly enough to not want to be involved in aviation any more. I'll await the AAIB report with interest.

It does concern me in general though that every time we get a story about a pilot "heroically" (or more sadly "sacrificing his life by...") steering his light aircraft away from houses, school, hospital or whatever else happens to be in a five mile radius from the crash site the implication is reinforced that light aircraft represent some kind of threat to the public on the ground when they "fall out of the air". In reality of course such a threat is minimal- far less for example than a car or even a motorcycle veering onto the pavement so maybe we should all emphasise that when discussing such incidents with our non flying friends and colleagues.

If i was him i would be more worried about getting MRSA in Ninewells than stalling it into a tree.

Having had recent dealings with this pilot (elsewhere) I thought "that was close" and "accident waiting to happen". To be fair the same thoughts came up a number of times during the shift, this is the first time I wish I'd had a fiver on it.

Roll the die of chance continually making basic mistakes, failing essential checks and talking to The Force will catch up with you in the end.

I doubt the overall reputation of GA has been seriously damaged by this nice man - nice apologetic man, at least he was when I met him.

Glad he and others were not hurt - anyone check on the squirrels?

As a result of this, I have changed my opinion of him from 'What an idiot' to 'What a legend!'

:ok: