Wing down during final approach.
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AFAIR one book I once read on the subject ("Takeoffs and landings" by Leighton Collins) advocates the crab (or rather just de-crabbing before touchdown) without much wing-lowering even for smaller aircraft without large engine pods, arguing that the crab is more comfortable to maintain and adjust during short final, the wind mostly changes near the surface anyway, so wing-low means more last-second-adjustments, unless the plane keeps floating no significant drift will develop after straigthening it with rudder and that two gear struts handle the impact of landing better than one.
Edit: referring to the video above, not sure about the usefulness of illustrating crosswind landings with PC sims. Whether MSFS or X-Plane, this is one aspect where they perform very poorly IMHO, especially concerning ground friction.
Edit: referring to the video above, not sure about the usefulness of illustrating crosswind landings with PC sims. Whether MSFS or X-Plane, this is one aspect where they perform very poorly IMHO, especially concerning ground friction.
Last edited by Armchairflyer; 7th Feb 2014 at 12:42.
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Again all high wing or tail dragger examples. I used to own a quarter share in a mooney aircraft with long wings and short undercarriage. lets see an example in one of these clips with an aircraft like that.
as stated if a pilot is sitting 6 feet up on a windy day pulling back for the chairmans landing while the runway slides sideways it his technique which is wrong and he is not carrying out a proper crab landing.
Ok even the best will be picked up on occasion but then they should smoothly and instinctively lower the wing and squeeze in rudder to adjust for that situation changing from one technique to another in smooth flowing and may i add confident control inputs.
maybe the FAA new advice is more reflective of the new breed of pilot training covering a wide span of abilities some who are more passengers to their landing on a wing and a prayer rather than being in full control regardless of conditions of the aircraft?
As stated if you are competent in all manner of landings in all conditions and choose the slip to suit you and your aircraft I have no problems with that at all.
if a technique is used to cover up shortfalls in handling techniques then that would worry me.
I noted in the video a number of references were made to low time inexperienced pilots being recommended to use the wing down method until they become more experienced.
Flying a small jet and speeds become more critical with a larger variation of speed on the approach. Normally selection of different degree of flap and undercarriage down the approach brings the speed back to VREF with a fairly constant N1 setting (more relevant to jet engines with spool times)
Change from a crab to wing low at say 300 feet and you are surely bringing in another element of drag which will de stabilise the approach without further thrust adjustment.
Pace
as stated if a pilot is sitting 6 feet up on a windy day pulling back for the chairmans landing while the runway slides sideways it his technique which is wrong and he is not carrying out a proper crab landing.
Ok even the best will be picked up on occasion but then they should smoothly and instinctively lower the wing and squeeze in rudder to adjust for that situation changing from one technique to another in smooth flowing and may i add confident control inputs.
maybe the FAA new advice is more reflective of the new breed of pilot training covering a wide span of abilities some who are more passengers to their landing on a wing and a prayer rather than being in full control regardless of conditions of the aircraft?
As stated if you are competent in all manner of landings in all conditions and choose the slip to suit you and your aircraft I have no problems with that at all.
if a technique is used to cover up shortfalls in handling techniques then that would worry me.
I noted in the video a number of references were made to low time inexperienced pilots being recommended to use the wing down method until they become more experienced.
Flying a small jet and speeds become more critical with a larger variation of speed on the approach. Normally selection of different degree of flap and undercarriage down the approach brings the speed back to VREF with a fairly constant N1 setting (more relevant to jet engines with spool times)
Change from a crab to wing low at say 300 feet and you are surely bringing in another element of drag which will de stabilise the approach without further thrust adjustment.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Feb 2014 at 13:33.
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This has turned out to be an excellent training thread and a picture is always worth a thousand words - thanks to flyingmac.
When all is said and done the message should be "let's make flying safer" so obtaining a good knowledge and understanding of all three methods is definitely the way to go. This thread has provoked a lot of interesting discussion both on line but also amongst professional colleagues and for that, I have really enjoyed the read.
When all is said and done the message should be "let's make flying safer" so obtaining a good knowledge and understanding of all three methods is definitely the way to go. This thread has provoked a lot of interesting discussion both on line but also amongst professional colleagues and for that, I have really enjoyed the read.
Last edited by sapco2; 7th Feb 2014 at 15:36.
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In that video they state that the crabbed approach is a factor of using thrust....
.....then obviously you can not perform a crabbed approach flying a glider.
.....then obviously you can not perform a crabbed approach flying a glider.
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Can you expand on that statement Chuck?
" to align with the runway the crab method relies on thrust. "
My understanding of thrust is that it is a force produced by an engine of some type that either applies the force by pushing or pulling.
Therefore in that a glider has no engine it does not have the use of thrust available.
You of course will have to give me some slack in my understanding the physics of flight as I am not a well educated bloke working for a university teaching people how to fly.
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Chuck
Ok we have a. New term
first kicking straight and now thrust ! Which I presume indicates leg thrust ? Also not right can we have squeeze in regards to the rudder or maybe caress it straight
Pace
Ok we have a. New term
first kicking straight and now thrust ! Which I presume indicates leg thrust ? Also not right can we have squeeze in regards to the rudder or maybe caress it straight Pace
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I would also be interested to know why commentator explained it in such terms. Maybe someone a little smarter than us can explain that one Chuck. Nevertheless he has put together an extremely useful video which should help any student pilot or PPL holder struggling with their crosswind landing technique.
Happy landings everyone!
Happy landings everyone!
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I would also be interested to know why commentator explained it in such terms.
Either way it does not instill confidence in these training institutions as far as I am concerned.
On a side note.....
..there was a time when I owned a flight school, after about six years of dealing with the bureaucracy that supplied my flight instructors I had a very simple decision to make.
Get a frontal lobotomy so I could think like them or get rid of the school...
As time passes I am sure glad I sold it because I see things have gone further down hill and I would now need a complete brain removal to fit in their world.
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Yep teaching methodology may have evolved but lets face it the basic physics/aerodynamics remain the same... Fact is, in spite of the questionable terminology his message was understood and his diagrams made everything crystal clear!
I used to own a quarter share in a mooney aircraft with long wings and short undercarriage. lets see an example in one of these clips with an aircraft like that.
Last edited by Maoraigh1; 7th Feb 2014 at 20:39. Reason: add and correct quote
The Mooney has quite a marked dihedral. To scrape a wingtip you'd have more bank angle than the rudder could handle. I know most of them are only demonstrated to 11kts, but the aircraft can cope with much more than that.
Wing down. You'd have to be seriously pushing the aircraft's limits, (not the pilot's), to scrape a wingtip.
Wing down. You'd have to be seriously pushing the aircraft's limits, (not the pilot's), to scrape a wingtip.
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The faulty approach video was a typically crap American if-I-say-it-loud-enough-it must-be-true type video. I don't agree there are three methods. There are only two as far as I can see. If you switch between them then you are using the other method surely, and not a third.
I don't fly gliders but I would think they are effectively using a component of gravity as thrust. Or maybe the pilot repeatedly breathes in deeply and then blows out to one side!
I don't fly gliders but I would think they are effectively using a component of gravity as thrust. Or maybe the pilot repeatedly breathes in deeply and then blows out to one side!
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The faulty approach video was a typically crap American if-I-say-it-loud-enough-it must-be-true type video.
Much like listening to politicians one has to dig deep to find the truth when these schools put their trained seals on tape explaining anything.
We can not blame the instructors because learned ignorance will in their minds be reality.
Why have laws of flight and not understand them?
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Well there is certainly no harm in digging deep Chuck. We are now onto 11 pages of debate yet the first posts to even attempt an explanation are #195 and #201. I looked at your profile and its clear you have a wealth of experience to offer and bearing in mind this is a private pilots forum, why not clearly explain your method to help them.
Great debate by the way!
Great debate by the way!
Last edited by sapco2; 8th Feb 2014 at 16:42.
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Well there is certainly no harm in digging deep Chuck. We are now onto 11 pages of debate yet the first posts to even attempt an explanation are #195 and #201. I looked at your profile and its clear you have a wealth of experience to offer and bearing in mind this is a private pilots forum, why not clearly explain your method to help them.
It would be self defeating for me to try and dissect every comment made here and make it look like my way is the only way.
Remember I post using my real name and therefore before I offer my suggestions I try and make sure what I am suggesting is not to badly flawed.
So.....in #195 I do not teach the method that is given at 3:45 minutes into the video. I crab to the flare and depending on the airplane I am flying my use of slip at or just after the flare will determine how much cross controls I will need to keep the airplane stable into the touch down and the roll out portion of the landing.
By the time my students got to the landing part of learning to fly they clearly understood the basics of flight...Attitudes and movements.
And I do use some American exercises early in the training such as turns around a point on windy days and pylon eights on windy days.
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So.....in #195 I do not teach the method that is given at 3:45 minutes into the video. I crab to the flare and depending on the airplane I am flying my use of slip at or just after the flare will determine how much cross controls I will need to keep the airplane stable into the touch down and the roll out portion of the landing.
