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Wing down during final approach.

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Wing down during final approach.

Old 7th Feb 2014, 12:32
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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AFAIR one book I once read on the subject ("Takeoffs and landings" by Leighton Collins) advocates the crab (or rather just de-crabbing before touchdown) without much wing-lowering even for smaller aircraft without large engine pods, arguing that the crab is more comfortable to maintain and adjust during short final, the wind mostly changes near the surface anyway, so wing-low means more last-second-adjustments, unless the plane keeps floating no significant drift will develop after straigthening it with rudder and that two gear struts handle the impact of landing better than one.

Edit: referring to the video above, not sure about the usefulness of illustrating crosswind landings with PC sims. Whether MSFS or X-Plane, this is one aspect where they perform very poorly IMHO, especially concerning ground friction.

Last edited by Armchairflyer; 7th Feb 2014 at 12:42.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 12:51
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Again all high wing or tail dragger examples. I used to own a quarter share in a mooney aircraft with long wings and short undercarriage. lets see an example in one of these clips with an aircraft like that.

as stated if a pilot is sitting 6 feet up on a windy day pulling back for the chairmans landing while the runway slides sideways it his technique which is wrong and he is not carrying out a proper crab landing.
Ok even the best will be picked up on occasion but then they should smoothly and instinctively lower the wing and squeeze in rudder to adjust for that situation changing from one technique to another in smooth flowing and may i add confident control inputs.

maybe the FAA new advice is more reflective of the new breed of pilot training covering a wide span of abilities some who are more passengers to their landing on a wing and a prayer rather than being in full control regardless of conditions of the aircraft?

As stated if you are competent in all manner of landings in all conditions and choose the slip to suit you and your aircraft I have no problems with that at all.
if a technique is used to cover up shortfalls in handling techniques then that would worry me.
I noted in the video a number of references were made to low time inexperienced pilots being recommended to use the wing down method until they become more experienced.

Flying a small jet and speeds become more critical with a larger variation of speed on the approach. Normally selection of different degree of flap and undercarriage down the approach brings the speed back to VREF with a fairly constant N1 setting (more relevant to jet engines with spool times)
Change from a crab to wing low at say 300 feet and you are surely bringing in another element of drag which will de stabilise the approach without further thrust adjustment.

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 7th Feb 2014 at 13:33.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 14:06
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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This has turned out to be an excellent training thread and a picture is always worth a thousand words - thanks to flyingmac.

When all is said and done the message should be "let's make flying safer" so obtaining a good knowledge and understanding of all three methods is definitely the way to go. This thread has provoked a lot of interesting discussion both on line but also amongst professional colleagues and for that, I have really enjoyed the read.

Last edited by sapco2; 7th Feb 2014 at 15:36.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 15:42
  #204 (permalink)  
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In that video they state that the crabbed approach is a factor of using thrust....

.....then obviously you can not perform a crabbed approach flying a glider.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 16:31
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Can you expand on that statement Chuck?
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 16:57
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chuck Ellsworth View Post
.....then obviously you can not perform a crabbed approach flying a glider.
Oh sorry, I will stop immediately doing such an impossible thing
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 16:59
  #207 (permalink)  
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Can you expand on that statement Chuck?
The person in the video said...

" to align with the runway the crab method relies on thrust. "

My understanding of thrust is that it is a force produced by an engine of some type that either applies the force by pushing or pulling.

Therefore in that a glider has no engine it does not have the use of thrust available.

You of course will have to give me some slack in my understanding the physics of flight as I am not a well educated bloke working for a university teaching people how to fly.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 18:03
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Chuck

Ok we have a. New term first kicking straight and now thrust ! Which I presume indicates leg thrust ? Also not right can we have squeeze in regards to the rudder or maybe caress it straight

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Old 7th Feb 2014, 18:44
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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I would also be interested to know why commentator explained it in such terms. Maybe someone a little smarter than us can explain that one Chuck. Nevertheless he has put together an extremely useful video which should help any student pilot or PPL holder struggling with their crosswind landing technique.

Happy landings everyone!
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 18:59
  #210 (permalink)  
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I would also be interested to know why commentator explained it in such terms.
My best guess is the commentator did not understand the subject he was commenting on or that so called university do not proof read their material.

Either way it does not instill confidence in these training institutions as far as I am concerned.

On a side note.....

..there was a time when I owned a flight school, after about six years of dealing with the bureaucracy that supplied my flight instructors I had a very simple decision to make.

Get a frontal lobotomy so I could think like them or get rid of the school...

As time passes I am sure glad I sold it because I see things have gone further down hill and I would now need a complete brain removal to fit in their world.
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 19:46
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Yep teaching methodology may have evolved but lets face it the basic physics/aerodynamics remain the same... Fact is, in spite of the questionable terminology his message was understood and his diagrams made everything crystal clear!
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 20:35
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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I used to own a quarter share in a mooney aircraft with long wings and short undercarriage. lets see an example in one of these clips with an aircraft like that.
I use wing down in a Jodel DR1050. Landing in a turbulent, gusting crosswind about 90 degrees to the runway - not a stable approach. Cockpit view. It does have wing outer sections angled up though.


Last edited by Maoraigh1; 7th Feb 2014 at 20:39. Reason: add and correct quote
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Old 7th Feb 2014, 21:15
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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The Mooney has quite a marked dihedral. To scrape a wingtip you'd have more bank angle than the rudder could handle. I know most of them are only demonstrated to 11kts, but the aircraft can cope with much more than that.
Wing down. You'd have to be seriously pushing the aircraft's limits, (not the pilot's), to scrape a wingtip.
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 14:23
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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The faulty approach video was a typically crap American if-I-say-it-loud-enough-it must-be-true type video. I don't agree there are three methods. There are only two as far as I can see. If you switch between them then you are using the other method surely, and not a third.

I don't fly gliders but I would think they are effectively using a component of gravity as thrust. Or maybe the pilot repeatedly breathes in deeply and then blows out to one side!
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 15:47
  #215 (permalink)  
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The faulty approach video was a typically crap American if-I-say-it-loud-enough-it must-be-true type video.
These companies are interested in making money...period.

Much like listening to politicians one has to dig deep to find the truth when these schools put their trained seals on tape explaining anything.

We can not blame the instructors because learned ignorance will in their minds be reality.

Why have laws of flight and not understand them?
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 16:14
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Well there is certainly no harm in digging deep Chuck. We are now onto 11 pages of debate yet the first posts to even attempt an explanation are #195 and #201. I looked at your profile and its clear you have a wealth of experience to offer and bearing in mind this is a private pilots forum, why not clearly explain your method to help them.

Great debate by the way!

Last edited by sapco2; 8th Feb 2014 at 16:42.
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 16:44
  #217 (permalink)  
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Well there is certainly no harm in digging deep Chuck. We are now onto 11 pages of debate yet the first posts to even attempt an explanation are #195 and #201. I looked at your profile and its clear you have a wealth of experience to offer and bearing in mind this is a private pilots forum, why not clearly explain your method to help them.
Obviously this subject has garnered much interest as shown by how long it has gone on.

It would be self defeating for me to try and dissect every comment made here and make it look like my way is the only way.

Remember I post using my real name and therefore before I offer my suggestions I try and make sure what I am suggesting is not to badly flawed.

So.....in #195 I do not teach the method that is given at 3:45 minutes into the video. I crab to the flare and depending on the airplane I am flying my use of slip at or just after the flare will determine how much cross controls I will need to keep the airplane stable into the touch down and the roll out portion of the landing.

By the time my students got to the landing part of learning to fly they clearly understood the basics of flight...Attitudes and movements.

And I do use some American exercises early in the training such as turns around a point on windy days and pylon eights on windy days.
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 16:54
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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So.....in #195 I do not teach the method that is given at 3:45 minutes into the video. I crab to the flare and depending on the airplane I am flying my use of slip at or just after the flare will determine how much cross controls I will need to keep the airplane stable into the touch down and the roll out portion of the landing.
My instructor taught me exactly this way, so I guess he agreed with you
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 16:59
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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So exactly as expected, you do use cross controls Chuck, yet you have enough expertise to leave the cross controlling part until late in the flare right?
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 17:15
  #220 (permalink)  
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My instructor taught me exactly thus way, so I guess he agreed with you
Pilots will often argue over different methods of controlling an airplane based on what they were taught...sometimes what they were taught is not always the best method to get the job done.....

......I started this thread so I am comfortable defending my method of flying the approach, flare and landing.

Lets go back in time and have a look at why we flew the way we did.

For years I flew DC3's on scheduled airline routes from northern Ontario into the arctic under the IFR rules of the time ( 1960's / 1970's ) , most of the northern landing sites in the winter were ice strips and for runway edge lights they set out flare pots which were containers with toilet paper rolls soaked in heating fuel oil.

For navigation we relied on the ADF and if we could get on top we used the astro compass for accurate heading information.

The approaches were flown using a NDB at almost all sites and our landing visibility limits were 400 feet ceiling and 1 mile vis......which could vary wildly during the approach especially if there was blowing snow at the surface.

Now just imagine the work load during the approach, why would we want to do it with crossed controls???

Flying in the Arctic we had simple rules such as don't overload yourself during critical phases of flight and don't eat the yellow snow.

So exactly as expected, you do use cross controls Chuck, yet you have enough expertise to leave the cross controlling part until late in the flare right?
Yes.

And taking into consideration that the above use of the flight controls is not black magic I am a firm believer in teaching new pilots how to comfortably perform these basic maneuvers right from the start.

Teach it right the first time always trumps trying to re-teach it.
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