Wing down during final approach.
they only get good landings 
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Haha, many thanks for the compliment Pace but really, it isn't my technique!
Someone taught me how to do it years ago and I've become totally sold on the idea ever since.
I think you'll agree, well executed crosswind landing are one of the few skilful and enjoyable challenges left in the commercial flying world!
Someone taught me how to do it years ago and I've become totally sold on the idea ever since.
I think you'll agree, well executed crosswind landing are one of the few skilful and enjoyable challenges left in the commercial flying world!
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A lot of pilots don't understand there is a time for smooth control inputs and there is a time to grab the bitch by the neck and do what's required.
don't think this is the place to discuss relationships
Sapco2
Is there a Sapco1
Sorry thought it was some new fangled devilish technique you had unilaterally developed I ought to read these threads : ----)Pace
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Ah Pace, you're the first to ask about the sapco handle!
Its a now obsolete reporting point south of EGNX.... the 2 as in to the centre fix!
It always felt good coming home to EMA and that is why I chose it!
Its a now obsolete reporting point south of EGNX.... the 2 as in to the centre fix!
It always felt good coming home to EMA and that is why I chose it!
Looking at the picture of the landing under discussion, it's been taken with a long lens sighting up from underneath, so possibly more dramatic (why do that? ) than a front end shot. The wingtip wasn't particularly close in reality: you can see the optical illusion as the left gear and prop appear to be underground. None of the surfaces are actually horizontal - add that to the camera angle and it is difficult to judge the true attitude...
) than a front end shot. The wingtip wasn't particularly close in reality: you can see the optical illusion as the left gear and prop appear to be underground. None of the surfaces are actually horizontal - add that to the camera angle and it is difficult to judge the true attitude...
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Its the infamous Manchester bump that you are seeing.
Pilots have spent years trying to level it out but its not moving.
If you manage it you can touch the wheels down just on the top for a greaser. Touch down before it and the ground is coming up to meet you doubling your ROD. And if you miss the top it drops away leaving you running out of energy and dropping onto the runway.
Pilots have spent years trying to level it out but its not moving.
If you manage it you can touch the wheels down just on the top for a greaser. Touch down before it and the ground is coming up to meet you doubling your ROD. And if you miss the top it drops away leaving you running out of energy and dropping onto the runway.
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'The Hump' caught out the Emirates A380 last year. I was in the Concorde hangar watching the landing and he must have flared with a tad too much speed as the aeroplane climbed ever so slightly in the flare. He did the correct thing and held the attitude, but by then they'd sailed over 'The Hump' and the runways was dropping away only slightly more slowly than the giant aeroplane was descending and feeling for it with all those dangly main wheels.
As the tyres brushed the surface he was almost level with me, and as I willed him to go around the power came on and go-around he did!
.
As the tyres brushed the surface he was almost level with me, and as I willed him to go around the power came on and go-around he did!
.
Last edited by Shaggy Sheep Driver; 18th Feb 2014 at 18:47.
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I don’t know anyone who does that, you have crab techniques if you need to on final approach, I will myself elect the “wing down” method on the flare out if actually needed.
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wing down top rudder?!
Though it has been awhile since a thread was added to this forum, I just recently ran across it when researching this topic.
As a Harrier guy, I learned to do nothing but a crabbed approach, and still do it today as a natural piloting skill in commercial aircraft.
Someone tried to tell me once that for high wing a/c one should utilize the wing down top rudder, but I just can't; and I don't even think it is safer. For me it feels less safe.
We should remind the naysayers that one could also do the ultimate -- land vertically with the harrier weather vane pointed into the wind, but that is hard to do in a 777.
Thanks again Chuck!
Joe
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Welcome Joe,
Chuck, whom I know as a very experienced pilot of many types, may have been highlighting the reality that different techniques are appropriate (or not) for different types.
Yes, I can imagine the "wing down" method may be undesirable for a Harrier, wiping off outriggers and all. However, in a floatplane, it's vital. If you contact the water crabbed in a floatplane, you're probably going to roll it upside down in the water. However touching a float plane on one float only, aligned with the "runway", and holding it in that attitude as needed, is no problem at all. In my flying boat (perhaps not unlike a Harrier in that way only), I'd dig in a wingtip float doing that. In my tricycle Cessna, I'm quite content to use either method to the surface, though the crabbed method will cost me more rubber.
Takeoff in a floatplane is surprisingly easier in a crosswind, when one float is lifted out as soon as practical. Half the water drag instantly, and a feeling like a push from behind.
Thus it's important to have these discussions, to have pilots consider as much as possible in making their technique choices.
It is important that pilots gain an understanding of both crosswind techniques, and thereafter any practical limitations, and preferences for the type they are flying.
Chuck, whom I know as a very experienced pilot of many types, may have been highlighting the reality that different techniques are appropriate (or not) for different types.
Yes, I can imagine the "wing down" method may be undesirable for a Harrier, wiping off outriggers and all. However, in a floatplane, it's vital. If you contact the water crabbed in a floatplane, you're probably going to roll it upside down in the water. However touching a float plane on one float only, aligned with the "runway", and holding it in that attitude as needed, is no problem at all. In my flying boat (perhaps not unlike a Harrier in that way only), I'd dig in a wingtip float doing that. In my tricycle Cessna, I'm quite content to use either method to the surface, though the crabbed method will cost me more rubber.
Takeoff in a floatplane is surprisingly easier in a crosswind, when one float is lifted out as soon as practical. Half the water drag instantly, and a feeling like a push from behind.
Thus it's important to have these discussions, to have pilots consider as much as possible in making their technique choices.
It is important that pilots gain an understanding of both crosswind techniques, and thereafter any practical limitations, and preferences for the type they are flying.
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In various a/c there are often a variety of techniques. IMHO the crab technique to about 5-300' is the same for all. It is after that where things might change. The crab could be maintained until flare, then removed. You could transition to a slip manoeuvre and maintain until flare landing on the upwind wheel; or a combination of the 2. In some a/c, B738, there is a max X-wind for pure sideslip landing. This is due to bank angle flap contact. Other a/c may have restrictions due to engine pod contact: I suspect A340 might. On B738, in medium X-winds I used crab then slip about 200'. On B757/767 I set up the slip at after 300' on strong days. All seemed to work OK.
What I found disturbing with some operators is that they had an SOP teaching only 1 of the optional techniques. This I considered to be a further dumbing down of teaching a pilot how to handle the a/c IAW the manufacturer's FCTM. Pilots are already not truly taught the envelope to the a/c, and restricting their education to only 1 technique is IMHO not complete training.
What I found disturbing with some operators is that they had an SOP teaching only 1 of the optional techniques. This I considered to be a further dumbing down of teaching a pilot how to handle the a/c IAW the manufacturer's FCTM. Pilots are already not truly taught the envelope to the a/c, and restricting their education to only 1 technique is IMHO not complete training.
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That is the whole point of SOP's
So everyone does 'it' the same way whatever the procedure is.
So you can fly with anyone in the company for the first time ever and you know exactly what they are going to do in any circumstance - such as a x-wind landing. None of this "Old Joe uses method x so remember this when flying with him".
So everyone does 'it' the same way whatever the procedure is.
So you can fly with anyone in the company for the first time ever and you know exactly what they are going to do in any circumstance - such as a x-wind landing. None of this "Old Joe uses method x so remember this when flying with him".
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it was this crosswind video that convinced me the 777 was the fleet to be on, not a minutes regret.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ogHdIZgzR4
the wing down is fine in good viz situations, but when operating down to minima, you have to continue what the autopilot has done a magnificent job at so far, that is wings level and crabbing !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ogHdIZgzR4
the wing down is fine in good viz situations, but when operating down to minima, you have to continue what the autopilot has done a magnificent job at so far, that is wings level and crabbing !
IMHO it depends on what aircraft you are flying and how fast it responds to a crosswind.
If you are in a 100 tonne Boeing crabbing into a crosswind, you get the flare wrong and float for a few seconds down the runway then it's going to keep going more or less down the runway whenever you kick the crab straight. No problem.
If it's an ultralight, and you kick the crab straight too early, a crosswind will accelerate the aircraft sideways significantly before you arrive on the ground and leave lots of rubber on the runway.
Wing down in a light aircraft allows one to float a bit without accelerating sideways ..... even if it requires one wheeled touchdown. Obviously this argument may not suit some long winged machines.
If you are in a 100 tonne Boeing crabbing into a crosswind, you get the flare wrong and float for a few seconds down the runway then it's going to keep going more or less down the runway whenever you kick the crab straight. No problem.
If it's an ultralight, and you kick the crab straight too early, a crosswind will accelerate the aircraft sideways significantly before you arrive on the ground and leave lots of rubber on the runway.
Wing down in a light aircraft allows one to float a bit without accelerating sideways ..... even if it requires one wheeled touchdown. Obviously this argument may not suit some long winged machines.
