Wing down during final approach.
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I think he/she went one main gear then nose then the next to be honest pace.
And you can just see his left wing aileron down which seems to me he/she had the controls crossed the wrong way.
So he/she was de-rotated with one main on the ground and lift on the wrong side which the wind got under.
To be honest in those conditions I would have been wing down for about the last 200-150ft.
And the attitude held in the flare power off and in a load voice "get down you whore" stated. Which worked for years landing in Shetland in similar conditions. Which is why for some of us all the fuss about the winds is rather amusing.
I haven't flown a Q400 but mates that have say they are a bit of a sod for tail strikes and it has the handling characteristics of a shopping trolley on the ground rollout. The weather cocking is quite pronounced in x'winds as soon as the mains touch.
And you can just see his left wing aileron down which seems to me he/she had the controls crossed the wrong way.
So he/she was de-rotated with one main on the ground and lift on the wrong side which the wind got under.
To be honest in those conditions I would have been wing down for about the last 200-150ft.
And the attitude held in the flare power off and in a load voice "get down you whore" stated. Which worked for years landing in Shetland in similar conditions. Which is why for some of us all the fuss about the winds is rather amusing.
I haven't flown a Q400 but mates that have say they are a bit of a sod for tail strikes and it has the handling characteristics of a shopping trolley on the ground rollout. The weather cocking is quite pronounced in x'winds as soon as the mains touch.
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MJ
My landing into Don that evening was lively in the Citation
They were getting gusts up to 80 its, Even the handler got blown off his feet guiding us in.
just through interest what do you add on approach speed wise for such conditions? At one point I was holding 170 KTS and saw that drop to 120 KTS and then shoot right up again with horrendous wing drops
That makes me smile when I hear pilots state they will hold VREF on approach regardless of winds
Must have been the worst i have had!! At least my PAX were impressed smooth touchdown more luck than anything else
Pace
My landing into Don that evening was lively in the Citation
They were getting gusts up to 80 its, Even the handler got blown off his feet guiding us in.just through interest what do you add on approach speed wise for such conditions? At one point I was holding 170 KTS and saw that drop to 120 KTS and then shoot right up again with horrendous wing drops
That makes me smile when I hear pilots state they will hold VREF on approach regardless of winds
Must have been the worst i have had!! At least my PAX were impressed smooth touchdown more luck than anything else
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Feb 2014 at 10:35.
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I don't add anything on to be honest.
I am doing 160 to 4 anyway.
And normally the approaches are flown at 140knts once configured coming back to Vat plus 10 at 200ft and Vat over the threshold max Vat 112knts and Vref 106.
We are a completely different kettle of fish though as we take 2 seconds to go from flight idle up to 100% torque as we are a direct shaft constant speed engine.
Nothing like flying down the approach with all the control gear creaking. A lot of pilots don't understand there is a time for smooth control inputs and there is a time to grab the bitch by the neck and do what's required.
There are some that like to add the old third of the wind and half the gust up to 15 knots onto the Vref but over the years I have seen some spectacular rapes in the flare with this addition just as good as that Q400. So I gave up doing it years ago and haven't scared myself in fact I seem to have an easy time of it compared to some.
And it always works like that when you working it and meaning to plant her on the ground and get the lift dump out she decides she is going to do a smooth landing.
Icing is a different story I add on speed for that. One of the boys got caught in unforecast freezing rain in Finland and ended up landing with 100% torque on and plus 30 knts in buffet.
I am doing 160 to 4 anyway.
And normally the approaches are flown at 140knts once configured coming back to Vat plus 10 at 200ft and Vat over the threshold max Vat 112knts and Vref 106.
We are a completely different kettle of fish though as we take 2 seconds to go from flight idle up to 100% torque as we are a direct shaft constant speed engine.
Nothing like flying down the approach with all the control gear creaking. A lot of pilots don't understand there is a time for smooth control inputs and there is a time to grab the bitch by the neck and do what's required.
There are some that like to add the old third of the wind and half the gust up to 15 knots onto the Vref but over the years I have seen some spectacular rapes in the flare with this addition just as good as that Q400. So I gave up doing it years ago and haven't scared myself in fact I seem to have an easy time of it compared to some.
And it always works like that when you working it and meaning to plant her on the ground and get the lift dump out she decides she is going to do a smooth landing.
Icing is a different story I add on speed for that. One of the boys got caught in unforecast freezing rain in Finland and ended up landing with 100% torque on and plus 30 knts in buffet.
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Yes agreed on the different speeds down the approach in the Citation 180 then back to 160 until 4 miles then back to roughly 105/110 vREF.
I must admit on that night not coming back to VREF but using 125 Kts and flying it on.
i wanted the control authority and a bit more speed with the down draughts especially on a long runway like DON
But as stated it peached on more by luck
Taxiing and taking turns crosswind while taxiing was hell taking two of us to hold the controls
also agree on the icing
Pace
I must admit on that night not coming back to VREF but using 125 Kts and flying it on.
i wanted the control authority and a bit more speed with the down draughts especially on a long runway like DON
But as stated it peached on more by luck
Taxiing and taking turns crosswind while taxiing was hell taking two of us to hold the controls
also agree on the icing
Pace
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SSD
Looks good but the wing was so close to the runway and this aircraft is high wing what the heck would i do in the citation ?
it would have only taken a nasty gust or downdraught for that wing to have moved the extra foot and impacted the runway with disastrous results
as MJ stated the ailerons are the wrong way around for that config and suggest the pilot was trying to stop the wing impacting by lifting it up!
Better in extreme conditions to fly it on something which is rarely taught especially in light GA
Pace
Looks good but the wing was so close to the runway and this aircraft is high wing what the heck would i do in the citation ?
it would have only taken a nasty gust or downdraught for that wing to have moved the extra foot and impacted the runway with disastrous results
as MJ stated the ailerons are the wrong way around for that config and suggest the pilot was trying to stop the wing impacting by lifting it up!
Better in extreme conditions to fly it on something which is rarely taught especially in light GA
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Feb 2014 at 12:26.
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For a start I don't think the drift was removed in fact I think they have over cooked it and gone for to much rudder.
The higher wing has the aileron down and the rudder is out on the same side which says to me they didn't have crossed controls.
Which to be honest is a typical error when try to kick off the drift in the flare.
The fact that they haven't kept the nose up either says that the crew were pax as well for a few moments.
At least when you go wing down at 100ft you can basically lock your leg and just deal with drift with slight amounts of roll then you can just concentrate on getting the pitch right. Saves you have to get 3 things right 6 ft off the ground. And all you have to do is increase your rudder input to keep it in a straight line and roll in some more aileron until you hit the stops to stop the wing lift once you lift dump or spoilers are out. Then keep it there to help steering on the tiller until your at taxi speed and gust locks are in.
The higher wing has the aileron down and the rudder is out on the same side which says to me they didn't have crossed controls.
Which to be honest is a typical error when try to kick off the drift in the flare.
The fact that they haven't kept the nose up either says that the crew were pax as well for a few moments.
At least when you go wing down at 100ft you can basically lock your leg and just deal with drift with slight amounts of roll then you can just concentrate on getting the pitch right. Saves you have to get 3 things right 6 ft off the ground. And all you have to do is increase your rudder input to keep it in a straight line and roll in some more aileron until you hit the stops to stop the wing lift once you lift dump or spoilers are out. Then keep it there to help steering on the tiller until your at taxi speed and gust locks are in.
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Pilot battles to land plane at Manchester Airport in 45mph crosswind | Mail Online
This is a link to more pictures of the event and it states the 12th which was wednesday the day I was flying.
The winds were strong at 1430 but increased later and I know ATC were asking us what conditions were like at altitude stating that there had been no landings at Liverpool but that was at 1830 and Liverpool has a westerly runway while Don 02/20 winds 21-22
Pace
This is a link to more pictures of the event and it states the 12th which was wednesday the day I was flying.
The winds were strong at 1430 but increased later and I know ATC were asking us what conditions were like at altitude stating that there had been no landings at Liverpool but that was at 1830 and Liverpool has a westerly runway while Don 02/20 winds 21-22
Pace
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at 1830 winds were 210/220 49 gusting 70 KtS recorded 80KTS but Don is further east than Liverpool or Manchester and winds got stronger around our time this aircraft landed at 1430
Fun and sporty to fly in
Pace
Fun and sporty to fly in
Gale force winds of more than 80mph wreaked havoc across South Yorkshire – smashing windows, toppling and bringing down power lines.
More than 100 worried residents called Sheffield Council to report trees and branches blocking roads and pavements.
At the Valley Centertainment complex passers-by avoided serious injury when the glass frontage of the Subway outlet blew out.
Overturned lorries on the region’s motorways caused chaos, with one driver needing to be cut free from his cab.
More than 100 worried residents called Sheffield Council to report trees and branches blocking roads and pavements.
At the Valley Centertainment complex passers-by avoided serious injury when the glass frontage of the Subway outlet blew out.
Overturned lorries on the region’s motorways caused chaos, with one driver needing to be cut free from his cab.
Last edited by Pace; 14th Feb 2014 at 13:26.
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If you knew what you were doing before reading this thread, you'd be confused to h@ll after reading it.
Which bit is confusing ? You would not be flying the light taildragger discussed earlier in the thread in this stuff unless you want to be going backwards instead of forwards and taking off before you release the brakes
Pace
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I was actually listening to Tower when that landing took place. It was 230 give or take a few degrees all the time. The runway was 23R. So no xwind. Extremely turbulent, though!
Right now it's nominally 25 to 30, though there have been gusts up to 40kts. But while the runway is 23R, the wind direction is between 170 and 130. Plenty of go-arounds!
Right now it's nominally 25 to 30, though there have been gusts up to 40kts. But while the runway is 23R, the wind direction is between 170 and 130. Plenty of go-arounds!
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SSD
Then its possible he got too slow and got dumped by a downdraught hence why I would carry a bit more speed than VREF especially with that headwind component and shorter stopping distance. Extra bit of speed would also give a bit more control authority in a situation like that but you do not want to be holding off 6 feet up with severe down draughts around
Pace
Then its possible he got too slow and got dumped by a downdraught hence why I would carry a bit more speed than VREF especially with that headwind component and shorter stopping distance. Extra bit of speed would also give a bit more control authority in a situation like that but you do not want to be holding off 6 feet up with severe down draughts around
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Feb 2014 at 14:11.
A lot of pilots don't understand there is a time for smooth control inputs and there is a time to grab the bitch by the neck and do what's required.
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That picture is a really bad example to use in arguing your case Pace because he/she is clearly NOT flying the cross control procedure. My guess is the aircraft in the picture is in the process of transiting from crab to wing down and its going horribly wrong for him/her. That or he or she has overdone the sideslip.
Trouble is some folk are simply not properly trained in cross controlling on approach. The secret in getting it right lies in applying sufficient downwind rudder first and only then applying sufficient into wind aileron to hold a steady course.
If flown correctly it will never give you that kind of wing down.
Pace, for what its worth I was flying a B757 in those high winds last week and I managed to land no problem too and bang on the centreline using the cross control technique. BUT the secret is DO not put the aircraft into some sort of horrendous side slip manoeuvre.
The stipulation on my type is not to fully cross control when the cross wind exceeds 28 kts.... Simples!
I have never flown the citation but I have flown the Learjet 35a and if you fly the technique correctly and with diligence you'll be able to land your aircraft bang on the centreline every time in crosswinds using the cross control technique.
Trouble is some folk are simply not properly trained in cross controlling on approach. The secret in getting it right lies in applying sufficient downwind rudder first and only then applying sufficient into wind aileron to hold a steady course.
If flown correctly it will never give you that kind of wing down.
Pace, for what its worth I was flying a B757 in those high winds last week and I managed to land no problem too and bang on the centreline using the cross control technique. BUT the secret is DO not put the aircraft into some sort of horrendous side slip manoeuvre.
The stipulation on my type is not to fully cross control when the cross wind exceeds 28 kts.... Simples!
I have never flown the citation but I have flown the Learjet 35a and if you fly the technique correctly and with diligence you'll be able to land your aircraft bang on the centreline every time in crosswinds using the cross control technique.
Last edited by sapco2; 14th Feb 2014 at 18:48.
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Sapco 2, there was no, or negligible, xwind in that photo. It was taken at EGCC last Tuesday afternoon, surface wind 230 gusting to well over 60kts, runway 23R.
I did point that out earlier in the thread.
I did point that out earlier in the thread.