stall warning and when to panic
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oz
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mad jock
Its just part and parcel of the lack of attitude flying thats being taught.
They should add 2 circuits with all the instruments covered into the ppl test, that would sort alot of this pish out.
They should add 2 circuits with all the instruments covered into the ppl test, that would sort alot of this pish out.
Originally Posted by mad jock
Reckon that 800ft is some nosense to do with commercial stabilised approach gate at 500ft. Its guff what ever the reason.
BTW the tommy is quite happy at 55knts approach speed full flap for a short field landing.
BTW the tommy is quite happy at 55knts approach speed full flap for a short field landing.
FWIW, when I first started training, they tell you to set certain RPM and on downwind, base and final. Likewise, the tell you what airspeeds to achieve. I have since learned that these are only guidelines, and whist they are ideal, sometimes you need a bit more or less depending on conditions.
Anyway, sorry about the hijack. Learning lots from you guys and gals!
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reference passengers interfering with controls, in the event of an accident and injury etc the pilot may be able to take a civil action against the passenger who interfered by proving that such action precipitated the accident.
Dave Wilson, I am not a lawyer!
One relevant point that has been missed is that when pilots are task saturated the very first sense the brain deletes is hearing. Your ear hears but the brain says "hey we're busy enough here - we don't need that stuff!".
So it's possible the pilot is not aware that the stall warner is operating (how many have landed gear up with the warning horn blasting away?).
Similarly the pilot may not be aware of your airspeed prompt. You might have to break the pilot's pattern by (for example) shaking him on the shoulder etc.
In the event of an accident with injury etc IF the passenger(s) can prove negligence on the part of the pilot they would have a case for civil action. But being negligent implies a deliberate act rather than a "genuine" mistake as I understand it but, as I say, I am not a lawyer.
But this is really getting highly hypothetical now. Sounds as though the OP was flying with someone who was not that competent.
One question I often ask students/pilots is "Can I stall if I am diving vertically towards the ground?" (with model a/c in hand pointing vertically down!) The answers are quite illuminating since almost exclusively all their stalling training has been done from more or less level flight and/or modest bank angles.
One relevant point that has been missed is that when pilots are task saturated the very first sense the brain deletes is hearing. Your ear hears but the brain says "hey we're busy enough here - we don't need that stuff!".
So it's possible the pilot is not aware that the stall warner is operating (how many have landed gear up with the warning horn blasting away?).
Similarly the pilot may not be aware of your airspeed prompt. You might have to break the pilot's pattern by (for example) shaking him on the shoulder etc.
In the event of an accident with injury etc IF the passenger(s) can prove negligence on the part of the pilot they would have a case for civil action. But being negligent implies a deliberate act rather than a "genuine" mistake as I understand it but, as I say, I am not a lawyer.
But this is really getting highly hypothetical now. Sounds as though the OP was flying with someone who was not that competent.
One question I often ask students/pilots is "Can I stall if I am diving vertically towards the ground?" (with model a/c in hand pointing vertically down!) The answers are quite illuminating since almost exclusively all their stalling training has been done from more or less level flight and/or modest bank angles.
To turn your argument on it's head, if I were flying in the RH seat with you and you pranged the a/c even after I had warned you about low airspeed/ insert frightening situation of choice, and I didn't take control and sat through the inevitable crash, would I have a claim against you? I would have an insurance claim obviously but if I pressed for damages in that I could have prevented the accident had you listened would that stand up in a court of law? We're not talking about pax here we're talking about qualified and current pilots. Would the court say 'Well as a current on type and qualified pilot Mr Wilson why didn't you take control?'
I agree - but would still emphasise that the qualified and competent PASSENGER should draw the pilot's attention to anything of concern.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One question I often ask students/pilots is "Can I stall if I am diving vertically towards the ground?" (with model a/c in hand pointing vertically down!) The answers are quite illuminating since almost exclusively all their stalling training has been done from more or less level flight and/or modest bank angles.
Also you can demonstrate the fact that the a/c can stall at any attitude/airspeed much more easily if the a/c is aerobatic.
Fly a loop and as you become inverted show the student "nose high, low speed (below 1g Vs) - but NO stall" and then when more or less vertical pull to buffet and show "nose low, high speed, STALL"
Fly a loop and as you become inverted show the student "nose high, low speed (below 1g Vs) - but NO stall" and then when more or less vertical pull to buffet and show "nose low, high speed, STALL"
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firefly, yes, that's where my example of a Yak zero airspeed with no stall and seconds later a stall at 140 knots (both in the same manouvre) came from.
But I wonder if the average non-flyer (i.e. a low hour stude) would gain anything from such a demo? I suspect not.
Experienced pilots, however, should know this stuff. It seems many don't.
But I wonder if the average non-flyer (i.e. a low hour stude) would gain anything from such a demo? I suspect not.
Experienced pilots, however, should know this stuff. It seems many don't.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A graphic illustration a few years ago was the spitfire at an airshow, which looped too low.....pancaked into the ground....IIRC pilot killed, not a lot left of the A/c.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oz
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fireflybob
One question I often ask students/pilots is "Can I stall if I am diving vertically towards the ground?" (with model a/c in hand pointing vertically down!) The answers are quite illuminating since almost exclusively all their stalling training has been done from more or less level flight and/or modest bank angles.
If you are diving vertically to the ground, and you pull up to quick, the AoA can be exceeded and you will stall?
In my head, I visualise it as this: diving vertically to the ground, relative airflow is also vertical. Pulling out of the dive quickly, relative airflow is still vertical, but you are becoming horizontal, therefore AoA may be exceeded?
As for turns, I guess the same logic applies.When turning, to keep the plane flying vertical you would have to pitch up? So a steep turn in a vertical dive could still result in a stall?
Your question poses and interesting point for me though. How much can you bank a plane without it turning, and how do you do it. Thoughts of aerobatics in head and how they do it. Clear gap in my knowledge here, time to go do some research. I am at work now, I really need to get a model for these moments, visualising it helps a lot.
But I wonder if the average non-flyer (i.e. a low hour stude) would gain anything from such a demo? I suspect not.
In the "olden days" my dad had students doing loops before they went solo.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Your question poses and interesting point for me though. How much can you bank a plane without it turning, and how do you do it. Thoughts of aerobatics in head and how they do it.
It's done using a load of aileron input to hold the bank balanced with a shed load of opposing rudder to hold the nose up along with power to balance the weight of the aircraft since the wings are not developing lift. Technically the fuselage will actually have a significant positive AOA and will be developing some lift but not much! You 'steer' the aircraft down the display line using pitch at that point but I run out of rudder beyond about 60-70 degrees even at 200mph so never personally tried it right over at 90 degs!
If you ever go on to fly an ex mil jet you'll be shown high speed stalling as part of the conversion syllabus which is a bit of an eye opener to say the least!
Regards
UA
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For part of the FAA CPLs we did all manner of accelerated stalls etc....My best stall was upside down at the top of a loop and we ended up falling with style. It was quite surreal, I can still remember watching the car on the road that we'd been using as a reference line 5000' below as the harness straps were fluttering around my ears and we were weightless, with an aero's FI laughling like a hyena beside me....I was a bit overloaded then and forgot to close the throttle so we were accelerating downward and a remarkable rate of knots. After what seemed like an eternity (probably a couple of seconds) he said "my plane" and recovered from my numerous botched recoveries in which I stalled about 10 times ( felt like it anyway).
Regarding taking over - Depends. I have taken over in the past when the person I used to fly with (in a shared aeroplane of which I owned a share) was destined to break the aeroplane on landing after flaring at about 50 feet and just waiting for the inevitable. Now I'd certainly take over if we were about to die horribly and I knew I could save us - self preservation and all that.
800'....our circuit is 800'....
Regarding taking over - Depends. I have taken over in the past when the person I used to fly with (in a shared aeroplane of which I owned a share) was destined to break the aeroplane on landing after flaring at about 50 feet and just waiting for the inevitable. Now I'd certainly take over if we were about to die horribly and I knew I could save us - self preservation and all that.
800'....our circuit is 800'....
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mad Jock ........ Unreasonable !
Jock I think you are unreasonable being critical of people who are turning onto final at 800 ft while deploying flap with the aim to be full flap speed stable at 500ft as they roll the wings level...........it's what I do all the time at small airfields.
Aircraft type Boeing 737-800, typical threshold speed 145 KTS.
I think a C152 or PA28 being flown this way is likely to be in the hands of a budding child of the magenta line !
FLY THE AIRCRAFT you are flying NOT the aircraft you aspire to FLY !
Aircraft type Boeing 737-800, typical threshold speed 145 KTS.
I think a C152 or PA28 being flown this way is likely to be in the hands of a budding child of the magenta line !
FLY THE AIRCRAFT you are flying NOT the aircraft you aspire to FLY !
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basics......I agree
It goes all the way back to your first flying lesson the first clue should be the controls getting less effective, then the aircraft attitude followed by the light buffet...... Without getting too far into the theory those are the clues that should be ringing alarm bells in the mind of a low time pilot long before the stall warner sounds.
To fail to teach that, and mitigate that with a whole lot of guff derived from videos of airliner flying is to sow the seeds of an accident be it a C152 Turing final at some small airfield of an A330 over the Atlantic.
To fail to teach that, and mitigate that with a whole lot of guff derived from videos of airliner flying is to sow the seeds of an accident be it a C152 Turing final at some small airfield of an A330 over the Atlantic.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The OP never did answer my original question about the nature of the stall warning - i.e. intermittent or blaring. Noting his location, I'm also reminded of the need for particular vigilance in NVFR flight in many parts of Australia. There are not always many visual cues and, indeed, the strip lighting can be basic to say the least. Before the thread got silly, Mad Jock correctly made the point that flying around with the stall waring blaring is bad form. To that I'd add that anything other than the gentle turn rates appropriate in instrument flying are not wise in the NVFR environment, especially in locations where you need to keep all your wits about you to avoid sensory and other traps.
A rider on some of the comments re stall warning devices concerns certified (VLA) vs LSA versions of the same aircraft. I'm amused to see that my certified aircraft boasts a stall warning vane, while its LSA stablemates assume that our recreational pilot colleagues can go hang (figuratively). I doubt they lose any sleep over the omission.
A rider on some of the comments re stall warning devices concerns certified (VLA) vs LSA versions of the same aircraft. I'm amused to see that my certified aircraft boasts a stall warning vane, while its LSA stablemates assume that our recreational pilot colleagues can go hang (figuratively). I doubt they lose any sleep over the omission.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know AnC its got the stink of commercial ops. I would be at 600ft and do the last 100ft with 5 degs of bank on in the works machine. Did have one idiot that announced that it was illegal to do less that a 5 mile final in a commercial airliner.
This was just after he announced he was back to OAT to help out in the sim for an open day. It took nearly 500 sectors to batter most of the rubbish out of him and sort his handling out. I am sure he was a whizz with automatics. Unfortunately the only thing we had automatic was the engine start the rest of it you were doing it yourself.
In the tommy I would be at 300-400 feet and if the donk went I would be able to glide the rest of the way.
This was just after he announced he was back to OAT to help out in the sim for an open day. It took nearly 500 sectors to batter most of the rubbish out of him and sort his handling out. I am sure he was a whizz with automatics. Unfortunately the only thing we had automatic was the engine start the rest of it you were doing it yourself.
In the tommy I would be at 300-400 feet and if the donk went I would be able to glide the rest of the way.