stall warning and when to panic
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We're not talking about pax here we're talking about qualified and current pilots. Would the court say 'Well as a current on type and qualified pilot Mr Wilson why didn't you take control?'
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bose:
I think there's a bit of pedantry going on here...
. I don't believe that as an obviously experienced pilot that you would just sit there and ride it into the ground is you had the chance to save yourself and the pilot, even though I know you're going to come back with 'Yes I would'.
Piper:
Yes, I see what you are saying but lets say you are spinning earthwards a rate of knots and P1 panics and freezes. (How many pilots have been killed in a spin? Some obviously do panic and freeze) Would you say 'My advice should you wish to take it would be to calm down and press opposite spin rudder' etc etc or would you just do it yourself?
I think there's a bit of pedantry going on here...
. I don't believe that as an obviously experienced pilot that you would just sit there and ride it into the ground is you had the chance to save yourself and the pilot, even though I know you're going to come back with 'Yes I would'.Piper:
Yes, I see what you are saying but lets say you are spinning earthwards a rate of knots and P1 panics and freezes. (How many pilots have been killed in a spin? Some obviously do panic and freeze) Would you say 'My advice should you wish to take it would be to calm down and press opposite spin rudder' etc etc or would you just do it yourself?
It does rather amuse me to read about all these children-of-the-magenta and their 'stable approach gate' guff, when I think about all the NDB-to-circle and low level visual circuits we used to do in the VC10 before the noise complaints stopped them.....
Nothing remotely difficult or dangerous about low level circuits, provided that you have been correctly taught. But not something which PPL holders with only a couple of hundred hours or so of £100 hamburger experience should try for themselves without proper training.
There's FAR TOO MUCH people-tube bolleaux creeping into spamcan flying training these days....
Nothing remotely difficult or dangerous about low level circuits, provided that you have been correctly taught. But not something which PPL holders with only a couple of hundred hours or so of £100 hamburger experience should try for themselves without proper training.
There's FAR TOO MUCH people-tube bolleaux creeping into spamcan flying training these days....
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing remotely difficult or dangerous about low level circuits, provided that you have been correctly taught.
Bose:
I think there's a bit of pedantry going on here.... I don't believe that as an obviously experienced pilot that you would just sit there and ride it into the ground is you had the chance to save yourself and the pilot, even though I know you're going to come back with 'Yes I would'.
Piper:
Yes, I see what you are saying but lets say you are spinning earthwards a rate of knots and P1 panics and freezes. (How many pilots have been killed in a spin? Some obviously do panic and freeze) Would you say 'My advice should you wish to take it would be to calm down and press opposite spin rudder' etc etc or would you just do it yourself?
I think there's a bit of pedantry going on here.... I don't believe that as an obviously experienced pilot that you would just sit there and ride it into the ground is you had the chance to save yourself and the pilot, even though I know you're going to come back with 'Yes I would'.
Piper:
Yes, I see what you are saying but lets say you are spinning earthwards a rate of knots and P1 panics and freezes. (How many pilots have been killed in a spin? Some obviously do panic and freeze) Would you say 'My advice should you wish to take it would be to calm down and press opposite spin rudder' etc etc or would you just do it yourself?
There are certain rare occasions when you have to have the moral courage (aka balls) to do the "right thing" even though you may know it's not "legal". But I think it's important to know that you are (potentially) operating outside the statute when you do this!
But am sure you know this!
There is certainly one occasion that comes to mind when I saved the aircraft (and me!) from crashing although technically I was a "passenger" - the owner was most grateful!
There are very few pilots who I would agree to take me as a PASSENGER to go spinning! (Unless you are referring to inadvertent spin?). It would be established clearly WHO the Commander was BEFORE getting airborne.
It does rather amuse me to read about all these children-of-the-magenta and their 'stable approach gate' guff, when I think about all the NDB-to-circle and low level visual circuits we used to do in the VC10 before the noise complaints stopped them.....
Nothing remotely difficult or dangerous about low level circuits, provided that you have been correctly taught. But not something which PPL holders with only a couple of hundred hours or so of £100 hamburger experience should try for themselves without proper training.
There's FAR TOO MUCH people-tube bolleaux creeping into spamcan flying training these days....
Nothing remotely difficult or dangerous about low level circuits, provided that you have been correctly taught. But not something which PPL holders with only a couple of hundred hours or so of £100 hamburger experience should try for themselves without proper training.
There's FAR TOO MUCH people-tube bolleaux creeping into spamcan flying training these days....
I stand by to be corrected but aren't low level circuits taught in training? I can certainly remember doing them.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firefly: I meant inadvertant spin, and thank you for an honest answer!
Beags: Correct me if I'm wrong... but how can I respond in any other way than my usual way? I wasn't schizophrenic last time we looked.
Are you insinuating that my instructors were less than thorough? They all came from the same background as you!
Beags: Correct me if I'm wrong...
but how can I respond in any other way than my usual way? I wasn't schizophrenic last time we looked.Are you insinuating that my instructors were less than thorough? They all came from the same background as you!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He was saying you were taught correctly not a load guff by some airline wannable thats paid 90k to be taught a load of crap about flying SEP aircraft as if its a 737.
And since they have failed to get an airline job they are now inflicting this crap on the general ga population.
And since they have failed to get an airline job they are now inflicting this crap on the general ga population.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
If you are diving vertically to the ground, and you pull up to quick, the AoA can be exceeded and you will stall?
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He was saying you were taught correctly not a load guff by some airline wannable thats paid 90k to be taught a load of crap about flying SEP aircraft as if its a 737.
And since they have failed to get an airline job they are now inflicting this crap on the general ga population.
And since they have failed to get an airline job they are now inflicting this crap on the general ga population.
I don't know anything about FI training not being one but aren't they all trained to the same standard? Most of the instuctors at my club are ex RAF instructors, indeed some are ex CFS instructors, some are now airline pilots and instruct becuase they love it. There's a bottomless pit of experience. However, to instruct at a ATO they must have done the same training as your man who can't get an airline job, so where does the disparity lie? The 'This is how to fly a circuit' lesson must be the same from all of them? I imagine there's a big book of how to teach things for instructors somewhere or am I mistaken?
There are systems in place for training and assessing to the minimum acceptable standard PPLs, FIs, schoolteachers, and for all I know duck-billed-platypus-sexers.
However, the reality will always be that whilst everybody has to meet the minimum standard when they took their test, some will then drop below that, and some will keep climbing to ever higher standards.
And an instructor with 1000++hrs of varied flying is likely to be more adaptable to what a student really needs than one with a couple of hundred hours on an integrated then an FI course, who knows nothing more than that book.
G
However, the reality will always be that whilst everybody has to meet the minimum standard when they took their test, some will then drop below that, and some will keep climbing to ever higher standards.
And an instructor with 1000++hrs of varied flying is likely to be more adaptable to what a student really needs than one with a couple of hundred hours on an integrated then an FI course, who knows nothing more than that book.
G
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not really dave the FI course is to teach you how to teach.
Most FII have thier own favourite exercises which you do multiple times to learn how to patter and destruct an exercise.
The favorites for my course were straight and level and effects of controls. I think I pattered 10 approaches on return to the field but never a circuit as such.
The course is only 20 hours flying so there isn`t enough time to do the whole syllabus.
In the past the zero to hero pilots wouldn`t go near instructing, these days they are chasing the jobs that the self improvers used to do as a matter of doing thier apprenticeship. Thus bring in all this airline guff into flying schools which they were taught in the expatation of going straight into the seat of an automated flight deck with someone that has a clue what they are doing in the LHS.
To be honest alot of the airline guff isn`t even industry standard its taken from BA sop`s from when the schools did the cadet courses. Give the CTC pilots there due the kiwi`s do seem to teach the sep syllabus better than the US trained pilots from the limited exposure I have had of them.
It depends which company you work for what gives the flight safety office kittens about. Some its normal to hand fly a visual some if you even suggest a visual never mind manually flown and you will be looked at as some sort of cowboy.
They don`t even know the book G they have been taught with the sole purpose of flying a 40 ton plus multicrew airliner which is pref A. There is a heap of stuff they do which is wrong but is deemed good habit forming for the time that they do fly the airliner. Unfortunately when they don`t go straight into a job they think that they way they have been taught is the way to fly a sep.
Most FII have thier own favourite exercises which you do multiple times to learn how to patter and destruct an exercise.
The favorites for my course were straight and level and effects of controls. I think I pattered 10 approaches on return to the field but never a circuit as such.
The course is only 20 hours flying so there isn`t enough time to do the whole syllabus.
In the past the zero to hero pilots wouldn`t go near instructing, these days they are chasing the jobs that the self improvers used to do as a matter of doing thier apprenticeship. Thus bring in all this airline guff into flying schools which they were taught in the expatation of going straight into the seat of an automated flight deck with someone that has a clue what they are doing in the LHS.
To be honest alot of the airline guff isn`t even industry standard its taken from BA sop`s from when the schools did the cadet courses. Give the CTC pilots there due the kiwi`s do seem to teach the sep syllabus better than the US trained pilots from the limited exposure I have had of them.
It depends which company you work for what gives the flight safety office kittens about. Some its normal to hand fly a visual some if you even suggest a visual never mind manually flown and you will be looked at as some sort of cowboy.
They don`t even know the book G they have been taught with the sole purpose of flying a 40 ton plus multicrew airliner which is pref A. There is a heap of stuff they do which is wrong but is deemed good habit forming for the time that they do fly the airliner. Unfortunately when they don`t go straight into a job they think that they way they have been taught is the way to fly a sep.
Last edited by mad_jock; 2nd Jan 2014 at 19:24.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On top of a hill
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FI Training
Dave - I think to sum it up, the FI course is designed to give you the basics of instructional technique, as well as the template of "patter" for each of the main PPL exercises. The rest comes from your own experience etc. I have been through both the military and civilian instructor training systems and my personal experience is that the mil system puts much more emphasis on standardisation of the way you teach an individual exercise, whereas the GA side seemed to me more "relaxed" (for want of a better word). There is also, I would suggest, much more (and more regular) monitoring of individual instructor standards - but then they can afford to do all that!
As we say with computers etc. - "rubbish in, rubbish out" and I think this is the big issue with instructing today. Take a guy fresh from his commercial course with 250 hours - he doesn't have a lot of experience, he doesn't know what he doesn't know and he can only teach what he does.
If the FI course were getting everyone to the same gold-standard of GA instructional knowledge, I think it would involve a hell of a lot more hours!
I'm not an FIE, so I can't comment on the requirements to pass an FI rating test. However, on my initial, I turned out what I would have said was a decidedly mediocre presentation of the exercise. To my surprise, the examiner seemed most pleased with it, which only leads me to wonder what the minimum acceptable standard was!
We really do seem to have drifted from the topic now, so apologies!
As we say with computers etc. - "rubbish in, rubbish out" and I think this is the big issue with instructing today. Take a guy fresh from his commercial course with 250 hours - he doesn't have a lot of experience, he doesn't know what he doesn't know and he can only teach what he does.
If the FI course were getting everyone to the same gold-standard of GA instructional knowledge, I think it would involve a hell of a lot more hours!
I'm not an FIE, so I can't comment on the requirements to pass an FI rating test. However, on my initial, I turned out what I would have said was a decidedly mediocre presentation of the exercise. To my surprise, the examiner seemed most pleased with it, which only leads me to wonder what the minimum acceptable standard was!
We really do seem to have drifted from the topic now, so apologies!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's FAR TOO MUCH people-tube bolleaux creeping into spamcan flying training these days....
Even when I was a PPL stude back in the '70s there was an element of 'the radio is a primary flight control' creeping in and PPLs being taught to communicate before they aviate.
My perception is that things have got a lot worse since the 'old generation' of ex-mil instructors (many ex-WW2 or even earlier) have dropped off the perch to be replaced by aerial-Routemaster-driver wannabees (a generalisation, obviously). The concept among PPLs of being 'The Pilot In Command' seems to have receded, mirroring the trend of people-tube drivers being ruled by managers and accountants in their airlines.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: EU
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Piper.Classique and bose-x,
I am asking this as an open and genuine question not trying to have a go or prove a point.
I understand of course that as the PIC and owner of an aircraft, the last thing you would want is a passenger (let's assume a licence holding and current one, but still a passenger) jumping on the controls, especially if you knew what you were doing.
But now lets ask the reversed question as before, but please, less about what is legal and what articles prohibit it.
If you were a passenger with your friend flying in his aeroplane, and you noticed a situation developing (for example, he's getting low on the approach and just keeps pulling stick back without doing anything to correct the lowering airspeed), what would you do?
Would you do as people have already mentioned here and call out the speed to make him realise?
If you did this, maybe two or three times and it seemed like he was still not correcting (perhaps he is overloaded for some reason), would you really sit and let the aircraft stall with you in it when you are perfectly capable of saving the situation?
Again, I am not trying to make this an argument, just a discussion as from what I read, you are completely against this happening whatever the situation (aside from incapacitation), but perhaps I have just mis-understood.
I am asking this as an open and genuine question not trying to have a go or prove a point.
I understand of course that as the PIC and owner of an aircraft, the last thing you would want is a passenger (let's assume a licence holding and current one, but still a passenger) jumping on the controls, especially if you knew what you were doing.
But now lets ask the reversed question as before, but please, less about what is legal and what articles prohibit it.
If you were a passenger with your friend flying in his aeroplane, and you noticed a situation developing (for example, he's getting low on the approach and just keeps pulling stick back without doing anything to correct the lowering airspeed), what would you do?
Would you do as people have already mentioned here and call out the speed to make him realise?
If you did this, maybe two or three times and it seemed like he was still not correcting (perhaps he is overloaded for some reason), would you really sit and let the aircraft stall with you in it when you are perfectly capable of saving the situation?
Again, I am not trying to make this an argument, just a discussion as from what I read, you are completely against this happening whatever the situation (aside from incapacitation), but perhaps I have just mis-understood.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: EU
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree Genghis, and maybe I am just missing something here but the way I read some of the posts it seems like some might rather perish than break the 'passenger' status. It is the lack of apparent self preservation which is perplexing me.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This whole take the controls off the PIC is a bit of a nightmare what ever aircraft you fly.
I have done it once in tens years. Lucky for me the skipper was very gateful and thanked me in the car park and asked if i wanted to submit a report on it.
But in general if you are flying with an instructor the likelyhood is that the aircraft is inside thier comfort zone but not yours. Take doing an approach in the tommy at 55 knts when you had only been exposed to some pillock telling you that you would die if you flew slower than 75knts, some of them teach 80knts.
For an instructor landing off a steep turn at 50ft pulling G to get rid of energy and then dumping the flap out isn`t an issue. To your normall ppl who hadn`t seen it before it would scare the hell out of them. Same with a slip to land only taking the rudder off at 20ft. All perfectly doable and glider tug pilots and meat bombers do them regularly.
So in themain it is very likely you would be doing more harm than good.
I have done it once in tens years. Lucky for me the skipper was very gateful and thanked me in the car park and asked if i wanted to submit a report on it.
But in general if you are flying with an instructor the likelyhood is that the aircraft is inside thier comfort zone but not yours. Take doing an approach in the tommy at 55 knts when you had only been exposed to some pillock telling you that you would die if you flew slower than 75knts, some of them teach 80knts.
For an instructor landing off a steep turn at 50ft pulling G to get rid of energy and then dumping the flap out isn`t an issue. To your normall ppl who hadn`t seen it before it would scare the hell out of them. Same with a slip to land only taking the rudder off at 20ft. All perfectly doable and glider tug pilots and meat bombers do them regularly.
So in themain it is very likely you would be doing more harm than good.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For an instructor landing off a steep turn at 50ft pulling G to get rid of energy and then dumping the flap out isn`t an issue. To your normall ppl who hadn`t seen it before it would scare the hell out of them.