stall warning and when to panic
G
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A good instructor would never ever do that sort of thing on a lesson dave.
Flying a positioning flight with 4 CAT aircraft approaching 6 miles out and the other choice of holding on down wind for 15-20mins they might go for it with a ppl onboard.
And it won`t matter what you brief it all goes out thier heads. Which is one of the reasons most of us get the student to sit on their hands when you first demo a spin.
Flying a positioning flight with 4 CAT aircraft approaching 6 miles out and the other choice of holding on down wind for 15-20mins they might go for it with a ppl onboard.
And it won`t matter what you brief it all goes out thier heads. Which is one of the reasons most of us get the student to sit on their hands when you first demo a spin.
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I did my BFR in FAA land not long ago, and new to the PTS is to demonstrate an accelerated stall. So in a 45 degree turn we quickly pulled until buffeting.
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Wonder how many they are going to kill with that one with aircraft going into untested spin modes.
You have to give it to the yanks as soon as they shut one way down of instructors killing students they come up with another one.
You have to give it to the yanks as soon as they shut one way down of instructors killing students they come up with another one.
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Mad jock:
Standby on your characteristic and insulting American bashing for a moment and realize the requirements. I know its difficult.
When giving a Flight Review, the instructor has the OPTION to review maneuvers equivalent to the pilot's license. There is no real PTS for the Flight Review. The PTS is for the rating held.
From the FAA Commercial PTS (Practical Test Standards). Note that the stall demonstration is an "approach" to stall done at a minimum safe altitude.
References: FAA-H-8083-3; AC 61-67; POH/AFM.
Objective: To determine that the applicant:
Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to accelerated (power on or power off) stalls.
Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 3,000 feet AGL.
Establishes the airplane in a steady flight condition, airspeed below VA, 20 knots above unaccelerated stall speed or the manufacturer’s recommendations.
Transitions smoothly from the cruise attitude to the angle of bank of approximately 45° that will induce a stall.
Maintains coordinated turning flight, increasing elevator back pressure steadily and firmly to induce the stall. Recognizes and recovers promptly at the “onset” (buffeting) stall condition.
Returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.
Accelerated Stalls (ASEL and ASES)
This has been accomplished for years here in America, BTW. Accomplished with the above parameters, the maneuver is instructional and entirely safe.
Standby on your characteristic and insulting American bashing for a moment and realize the requirements. I know its difficult.
When giving a Flight Review, the instructor has the OPTION to review maneuvers equivalent to the pilot's license. There is no real PTS for the Flight Review. The PTS is for the rating held.
From the FAA Commercial PTS (Practical Test Standards). Note that the stall demonstration is an "approach" to stall done at a minimum safe altitude.
References: FAA-H-8083-3; AC 61-67; POH/AFM.
Objective: To determine that the applicant:
Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to accelerated (power on or power off) stalls.
Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 3,000 feet AGL.
Establishes the airplane in a steady flight condition, airspeed below VA, 20 knots above unaccelerated stall speed or the manufacturer’s recommendations.
Transitions smoothly from the cruise attitude to the angle of bank of approximately 45° that will induce a stall.
Maintains coordinated turning flight, increasing elevator back pressure steadily and firmly to induce the stall. Recognizes and recovers promptly at the “onset” (buffeting) stall condition.
Returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.
Accelerated Stalls (ASEL and ASES)
This has been accomplished for years here in America, BTW. Accomplished with the above parameters, the maneuver is instructional and entirely safe.
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Well having been flipped over the top in a cessna 152 into a spin which wouldn`t recover using the POH method and required full power to be applied before the rudder got any authority by doing just that but with the flight instructor instructor demoing a botched steep turn you crack on.
BTW it spun faster than tommy we lost 4k feet before he recovered it with 500ft left.
Sounds very like that other special of hanging in the air fannying around with the rudder pedals while holding it in the stall.
It took nearly twenty years and a rudder falling off an airbus to stop that lifting wing with the rudder nonsense.
BTW it spun faster than tommy we lost 4k feet before he recovered it with 500ft left.
Sounds very like that other special of hanging in the air fannying around with the rudder pedals while holding it in the stall.
It took nearly twenty years and a rudder falling off an airbus to stop that lifting wing with the rudder nonsense.
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Wonder how many they are going to kill with that one with aircraft going into untested spin modes.
You have to give it to the yanks as soon as they shut one way down of instructors killing students they come up with another one.
You have to give it to the yanks as soon as they shut one way down of instructors killing students they come up with another one.
Fair questions. ohNo and Dave.
I would have no objection to a verbal prompt when flying as P1 with another pilot on board.
If I am flying as passenger then that's what I am. As I would prefer not to be killed then obviously I would attempt a verbal prompt in a developing situation. If that didn't have a result then a rather more urgent and firm prompt would ensue......if no reply then I suppose I would assume incapacitation and proceed accordingly.
FI hat on now. I teach low level circuits, stalling in all configurations, incipient spins. Can't do full spins in the Dr400. Operation at minimum level, precautionary landings, flap failure, radio failure , all sorts of engine failures in all sorts of places, anything else I can think of failing I will do it. Glide approaches, sideslips, no instruments.
Tug pilot hat on now. Steep turns pulling G to kill the speed are routine. Final turn low, close in, then nose down to flick the rope up, land anywhere without a glider in the way.
Glider pilot hat on. We can't do go arounds. So I have to be able to get a landing out of a student's messed up approach. Better, I can help the student sort it out for him/her self.
Oh, yes, stall warners. Usually the calibration is more than a little approximate. Control feel, buffet, stick position, and in unaccelerated flight the attitude and asi are far better indicators in light aircraft. Which is what I teach people to fly. Which is what I learned to fly, then got a CPL through the back door with 700 hours in 1990. Which is what I still fly, and am still learning. Sorry I can't take you spinning in the cub, but we are beyond the aft limit for spinning two up.
Happy new year!
I would have no objection to a verbal prompt when flying as P1 with another pilot on board.
If I am flying as passenger then that's what I am. As I would prefer not to be killed then obviously I would attempt a verbal prompt in a developing situation. If that didn't have a result then a rather more urgent and firm prompt would ensue......if no reply then I suppose I would assume incapacitation and proceed accordingly.
FI hat on now. I teach low level circuits, stalling in all configurations, incipient spins. Can't do full spins in the Dr400. Operation at minimum level, precautionary landings, flap failure, radio failure , all sorts of engine failures in all sorts of places, anything else I can think of failing I will do it. Glide approaches, sideslips, no instruments.
Tug pilot hat on now. Steep turns pulling G to kill the speed are routine. Final turn low, close in, then nose down to flick the rope up, land anywhere without a glider in the way.
Glider pilot hat on. We can't do go arounds. So I have to be able to get a landing out of a student's messed up approach. Better, I can help the student sort it out for him/her self.
Oh, yes, stall warners. Usually the calibration is more than a little approximate. Control feel, buffet, stick position, and in unaccelerated flight the attitude and asi are far better indicators in light aircraft. Which is what I teach people to fly. Which is what I learned to fly, then got a CPL through the back door with 700 hours in 1990. Which is what I still fly, and am still learning. Sorry I can't take you spinning in the cub, but we are beyond the aft limit for spinning two up.
Happy new year!
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English go and think what happens to the aoa of the inside wing.
Then have a look at theory why the designers put wash out into the wing.
Then have a look at the certfication standards.
Then link the whole lot together and see that the aircraft has never been tested in a stall in a steep turn or the resulting inside wing stall to spin.
Recovery on the stall warner is completely diffetent to being on the nibble or fully developed because the aircraft isn`t stalled. In europe land the only configuration for a fully developed stall is clean wings level for very good reason. All the other stalls are done from incipent from the warning. Not from nibble or fully developed.
Then have a look at theory why the designers put wash out into the wing.
Then have a look at the certfication standards.
Then link the whole lot together and see that the aircraft has never been tested in a stall in a steep turn or the resulting inside wing stall to spin.
Recovery on the stall warner is completely diffetent to being on the nibble or fully developed because the aircraft isn`t stalled. In europe land the only configuration for a fully developed stall is clean wings level for very good reason. All the other stalls are done from incipent from the warning. Not from nibble or fully developed.
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Every time I have (properly) stalled in the turn, it is the outside wing that dropped due to increased AoA on the outside wing causing it to stall first / deeper.
Every time I have (properly) stalled in the turn, it is the outside wing that dropped due to increased AoA on the outside wing causing it to stall first / deeper.
One question I often ask students/pilots is "Can I stall if I am diving vertically towards the ground?" (with model a/c in hand pointing vertically down!)
It may have dropped the outside wing every time but the reasons given are your guess based presumably on the very simplistic theory used in PPL/ATPL TK. Very few aeroplanes are instrumented in a way that would prove (or disprove!) what you say.
G
djpil, good point!
Perhaps a better question then might be if I am diving vertically towards the ground and pulled hard back on the stick what would happen?
Technically your answer is correct but the question is geared to make a relevant point
Perhaps a better question then might be if I am diving vertically towards the ground and pulled hard back on the stick what would happen?
Technically your answer is correct but the question is geared to make a relevant point
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We were at 50 deg bank balanced flight with ower on in a c150 or 152.
The aircraft was pitched to the buffet then roll applied to level the wings.
The wing tip stalled throwing us over the top and straight into a high rot fully developed spin which was nothing like the normal spin. Rudder made not the slightest bit of difference and neither did progresively moving the stick forward.
It was one of my three this is it moments in aircraft
The aircraft was pitched to the buffet then roll applied to level the wings.
The wing tip stalled throwing us over the top and straight into a high rot fully developed spin which was nothing like the normal spin. Rudder made not the slightest bit of difference and neither did progresively moving the stick forward.
It was one of my three this is it moments in aircraft
No worries, fireflybob, I find it difficult myself to translate stuff from my briefings/chats to online posts. I totally agree with your approach. Small number of written words I find inadequate. 140 per twitter I cannot deal with.
jock, we should discuss over a nice bottle of red next time you visit.
jock, we should discuss over a nice bottle of red next time you visit.
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I sometimes wonder why we make this so difficult for the average PPL. The fundamentals are that the nearer the stick is to your Crown Jewels the nearer you are to a stall. If you have a significant angle of bank and are trying to turn the stick will be in that position.
Of course we all recognise the symptoms of slow flight or, more importantly the approach to the stall? Gushing over air speeds, angles of bank, squares of the load factor etc is for people who prefer reading books or designing aircraft.
There are some simple rules of thumb which the average pilot can hang their hat on, one being reduced bank angles in a turn, close to the ground when taking off or landing. Experimenting outside these boundaries is very useful and informative but needs to be done in the right environment.
Of course we all recognise the symptoms of slow flight or, more importantly the approach to the stall? Gushing over air speeds, angles of bank, squares of the load factor etc is for people who prefer reading books or designing aircraft.
There are some simple rules of thumb which the average pilot can hang their hat on, one being reduced bank angles in a turn, close to the ground when taking off or landing. Experimenting outside these boundaries is very useful and informative but needs to be done in the right environment.