Hi - SP here, flare frsutration!
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Hi - SP here, flare frsutration!
Thought I would join up and say hi. Since I started flying, this forum has turned up a lot on my google searches! Seems to be a good resource for those learning.
Anyway, broke my knee about 8 months ago now in a trail bike accident and was banned from riding and sailing (my other hobbies). Always wanted to fly, surgeon was happy for me to go up provided I waited a few months after my knee reconstruction. I cant sit still and do nothing, so I took the opportunity to start flying!
So here I am, 16 hours down and doing circuits. Circuit after circuit getting more and more frustrated because I cant quite get that landing just right! Training at an aero club, so I get a mix of instructors who are all really great! I am sure I will get there soon! I have googled heaps on getting that flare correct, and read a lot of threads here. Of course any more tips are welcome!
Anyway, broke my knee about 8 months ago now in a trail bike accident and was banned from riding and sailing (my other hobbies). Always wanted to fly, surgeon was happy for me to go up provided I waited a few months after my knee reconstruction. I cant sit still and do nothing, so I took the opportunity to start flying!
So here I am, 16 hours down and doing circuits. Circuit after circuit getting more and more frustrated because I cant quite get that landing just right! Training at an aero club, so I get a mix of instructors who are all really great! I am sure I will get there soon! I have googled heaps on getting that flare correct, and read a lot of threads here. Of course any more tips are welcome!
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Buy this book
It goes through the landing process in a range of scenarios and was the best flying book I ever bought.
The key point is that landing is a process not an event. It starts with setting up a stable approach and ends with a parked aeroplane. The tricky bit is the round out and flare. Basically you learn to round out at a sensible height, close the throttle and then pull the yoke or stick back slowly a bit like trying NOT to land. If you have it dead right the wheels will touch gently with the yoke or stick all the way back and the stall warner sounding. You then lower the nose, roll out to taxi speed and taxi to the stand. Simples!
It goes through the landing process in a range of scenarios and was the best flying book I ever bought.
The key point is that landing is a process not an event. It starts with setting up a stable approach and ends with a parked aeroplane. The tricky bit is the round out and flare. Basically you learn to round out at a sensible height, close the throttle and then pull the yoke or stick back slowly a bit like trying NOT to land. If you have it dead right the wheels will touch gently with the yoke or stick all the way back and the stall warner sounding. You then lower the nose, roll out to taxi speed and taxi to the stand. Simples!
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Its easy...
You just need to set the correct attitude, at the correct height, at the correct speed, with the correct power (probably idle) and don't let the nose drop / pitch forward at any point...
Don't worry - at some stage it will just click! It is all about judgement, which is something that everyone needs to learn for themselves (I've had my licence since April and lets just say, some of my landings still have a lot to be desired...).
A stable approach at the correct speed / angle helps enormously. Ideally on approach you should be stable and trimmed enough and that you can take hands off and nothing changes.
I'd also try to keep the same instructor for a spell. There are sooo many different techniques (to get the correct attitude for example) and everyone has a favourite but you really only need to master one of them, so it is easy to get confused with differing instructors.
Enjoy your training!
RR
You just need to set the correct attitude, at the correct height, at the correct speed, with the correct power (probably idle) and don't let the nose drop / pitch forward at any point...
Don't worry - at some stage it will just click! It is all about judgement, which is something that everyone needs to learn for themselves (I've had my licence since April and lets just say, some of my landings still have a lot to be desired...).
A stable approach at the correct speed / angle helps enormously. Ideally on approach you should be stable and trimmed enough and that you can take hands off and nothing changes.
I'd also try to keep the same instructor for a spell. There are sooo many different techniques (to get the correct attitude for example) and everyone has a favourite but you really only need to master one of them, so it is easy to get confused with differing instructors.
Enjoy your training!
RR
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Hi Andy welcome aboard.There is a point in the approach that is referred to as the "ground rush" when the airfield seems to suddenly come up round your ears rather than you looking down on it. That's the round out point, or thereabouts. It will all click soon, don't worry about it. Have fun.
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Yup, I am hooked. Too many hobbies!!
EdBarret, I like switching between instructors. They are all really good, and each bring a new perspective to it. Each time I get hooked up one thing, flying with a new instructor seems to just pick up on the one thing I am doing wrong that may be insignificant to the last. Its helped me lot so far.
I am pretty good at analysing my problems, my engineer background probably helps. I know what I am doing wrong. Approach is generally ok (for a 16 hour pilot). Round out ok mostly, but I tend to over correct. Ie, pull back to hard, ballon, then pitch down. I am being to hard on the elevator.
I had a think about it tonight. Going to request to stop doing the touch and go for now, try and fly the plane on the runway with no power. Focus on attitude rather than landing. Thoughts? Its not a busy airstrip, so taxing back out for another circuit should not take to long.
EdBarret, I like switching between instructors. They are all really good, and each bring a new perspective to it. Each time I get hooked up one thing, flying with a new instructor seems to just pick up on the one thing I am doing wrong that may be insignificant to the last. Its helped me lot so far.
I am pretty good at analysing my problems, my engineer background probably helps. I know what I am doing wrong. Approach is generally ok (for a 16 hour pilot). Round out ok mostly, but I tend to over correct. Ie, pull back to hard, ballon, then pitch down. I am being to hard on the elevator.
I had a think about it tonight. Going to request to stop doing the touch and go for now, try and fly the plane on the runway with no power. Focus on attitude rather than landing. Thoughts? Its not a busy airstrip, so taxing back out for another circuit should not take to long.
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Make sure you are looking at the far end of the runway, and not the touchdown point just before you flare. The over flaring maybe due to "ground rush", your peripheral vision works better in the last few feet.....
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I had the same problem - I did lots of landings but never could get it right until my instructor had me speak to the flight school owner - what worked for me was when he said "when you're landing, the view out the window etc should look just like it does when you're taking off".
It worked for me, I simply wasn't getting the attitude right - speed was ok but I tended not to get the nose up.
It is something I contine to struggle with, even 70+ hours after my ppl, but it gets better as ith experience it seems that everything seems to happen far more slowly in giving time to adjust and correct - odd thing that.
It worked for me, I simply wasn't getting the attitude right - speed was ok but I tended not to get the nose up.
It is something I contine to struggle with, even 70+ hours after my ppl, but it gets better as ith experience it seems that everything seems to happen far more slowly in giving time to adjust and correct - odd thing that.
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the two last points given by Ebbie and Lucy are what worked for me eventually
it really does take time and then eventually it clicks.
It just kind of happens is probably the worst but most accurate advice you are going to get.
one day you'll just be able to do it. And then out of nowhere you'll have a shocker of a landing just to keep you on your toes
I had a real tough time with this as well. all of the above advice works to some degree.
by biggest problem is carrying too much speed onto final , then you are guaranteed to bounce. Once I figured this out and concentrated on nailing that magic number things got a lot easier
it really does take time and then eventually it clicks.
It just kind of happens is probably the worst but most accurate advice you are going to get.
one day you'll just be able to do it. And then out of nowhere you'll have a shocker of a landing just to keep you on your toes
I had a real tough time with this as well. all of the above advice works to some degree.
by biggest problem is carrying too much speed onto final , then you are guaranteed to bounce. Once I figured this out and concentrated on nailing that magic number things got a lot easier
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Step by Step instructions on how to land a plane based on my 20 years of experience:
Issues: Flaring too early or late, bouncing, jouncing,landing too long or short, too fast or slow.
Action to be taken:
Step 1: Listen to the advice of your instructor, other pilots at the airfield and on pprune about speed control,how to judge height,where to focus (or not) your vision, and aircraft attitude during the different phases of landing.
Step 2: Go fly the pattern and try it, after a few botched attempts you will perform a greaser of a landing and think to yourself " Aha I have nailed the bastard". Go immediately to club house and brag to everybody and anybody that will listen.
Step 3: Return to airfield the following week and go flying, while on approach confident in the knowledge you have landings nailed let your mind drift on to other aspects of flying and/or where you will be going for a pint afterward, botch the landing, kick yourself, slink home without visiting the clubhouse.
Step 4: On the drive to the airfield for your next flight say to yourself "right I am really gonna concentrate and nail it today, go flying, botch landing, rationalize with yourself that " ah f$&k it nobody saw me bounce, the plane ain't bent and I,m not hurt so its all good"
Step 5: On you next flight without thinking too much about it you unexpectedly nail 3 greaser landings one after the other.
Step 6: Return to Step 2 and continue cycle for next few decades.
Note: Anybody, regardless of experience,that tells you that they ace their landings every time is a lying bar steward.
Hope this helps.
Issues: Flaring too early or late, bouncing, jouncing,landing too long or short, too fast or slow.
Action to be taken:
Step 1: Listen to the advice of your instructor, other pilots at the airfield and on pprune about speed control,how to judge height,where to focus (or not) your vision, and aircraft attitude during the different phases of landing.
Step 2: Go fly the pattern and try it, after a few botched attempts you will perform a greaser of a landing and think to yourself " Aha I have nailed the bastard". Go immediately to club house and brag to everybody and anybody that will listen.
Step 3: Return to airfield the following week and go flying, while on approach confident in the knowledge you have landings nailed let your mind drift on to other aspects of flying and/or where you will be going for a pint afterward, botch the landing, kick yourself, slink home without visiting the clubhouse.
Step 4: On the drive to the airfield for your next flight say to yourself "right I am really gonna concentrate and nail it today, go flying, botch landing, rationalize with yourself that " ah f$&k it nobody saw me bounce, the plane ain't bent and I,m not hurt so its all good"
Step 5: On you next flight without thinking too much about it you unexpectedly nail 3 greaser landings one after the other.
Step 6: Return to Step 2 and continue cycle for next few decades.
Note: Anybody, regardless of experience,that tells you that they ace their landings every time is a lying bar steward.
Hope this helps.
Round out ok mostly, but I tend to over correct. Ie, pull back to hard, ballon, then pitch down. I am being to hard on the elevator.
Don't think of a sharp change of angle in the flare, just do enough to avoid hitting the ground (for as long as possible)! Lots of little adjustments, rather than a few big ones.
FBW
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As has been said, at the point where you feel roundout should happen, keep your eyes on the end of the runway and use your peripheral vision to monitor the last couple of feet and the runway edges. With power at just above idle, try and keep the aircraft at a couple of feet off the ground, it will settle on its own, generally with pleasing results. Variations will be learned with experience to account for different weather conditions, runway widths etc, but it will click eventually.
Best of luck with it.
Best of luck with it.
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Try motto focus on a perfect 'flare' as you put it. Focus on the transition between your approach attitude and flying level with the runway. Try to fly all the way to the end of the runway, with no power. You'll never be able to but it will make a nice smooth transition and will stop you losing too much speed and having a hard landing! As you lose speed your nose will want to drop, DONT LET IT. Because you pitched up, more speed will bleed off, the nose will want to drop more and so on and so on.... Try it and see how it goes. I instruct on motor gliders, fly light aircraft and light twins and it's the same for all!! Just try and fly to the end but don't forget to chop the throttle SMOOTHLY.
Hope it helps!!
Hope it helps!!
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Thanks for the tips. I am sure it will come to me eventually!
Just trying to book in more flights, but the joy of owning your own business means I am I time poor. Cant seem to find a vacant spot in the next 2 weeks which is rather annoying. I have found if I can get up 2 or 3 times a week I learn faster. Hopefully 2 weeks off wont set me back to far..
Just trying to book in more flights, but the joy of owning your own business means I am I time poor. Cant seem to find a vacant spot in the next 2 weeks which is rather annoying. I have found if I can get up 2 or 3 times a week I learn faster. Hopefully 2 weeks off wont set me back to far..
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andy p
the book, ''stick and rudder'' is the best book you can read, so do it...it talks about landing quite a bit.
now this might sound odd, but think about it...assuming you know how to drive a car, you probably learned how to stop at a stop sign (do the australians have stop signs?)
how did you judge the stop?
early on you overshot the stop sign
or stopped too soon and came up short
but eventually you got it just right (assuming it isn't raining or a bunch of kangaroos get in your way)
its the same sort of thing judging the flare...so play with it
oh
and except for the danger to your knee, go to a department store. Ride the escalator (is that what they call the moving stairs in Australia ?) down.
You judge getting off the escalator in the same way you will judge the FLARE in landing.
I have a feeling many will laugh, but you give it a try...see how you change the gaze of your eyes as you land off the escalator.
so, go to the book store, buy "stick and rudder" by langweische, read it a whole bunch of times, and maybe take the escalator down while you are at the mall.
the book, ''stick and rudder'' is the best book you can read, so do it...it talks about landing quite a bit.
now this might sound odd, but think about it...assuming you know how to drive a car, you probably learned how to stop at a stop sign (do the australians have stop signs?)
how did you judge the stop?
early on you overshot the stop sign
or stopped too soon and came up short
but eventually you got it just right (assuming it isn't raining or a bunch of kangaroos get in your way)
its the same sort of thing judging the flare...so play with it
oh
and except for the danger to your knee, go to a department store. Ride the escalator (is that what they call the moving stairs in Australia ?) down.
You judge getting off the escalator in the same way you will judge the FLARE in landing.
I have a feeling many will laugh, but you give it a try...see how you change the gaze of your eyes as you land off the escalator.
so, go to the book store, buy "stick and rudder" by langweische, read it a whole bunch of times, and maybe take the escalator down while you are at the mall.
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I will have a look for that book flarepilot. Re vision and judgement, try riding a motorcycle! We call it target fixation, sounds like what you call ground rush. The principles are all the same, its just a matter of training your brain to recognise the pattern and have it react subconsciously. Practice makes perfect I guess!
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One question and it's already up to seventeen opinions. Go and speak to the CFI, get an instructor and go and do some circuits. Don't waste your money sorting it out on your own.
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Originally Posted by fujii
One question and it's already up to seventeen opinions. Go and speak to the CFI, get an instructor and go and do some circuits. Don't waste your money sorting it out on your own.
BTW. Had the same issue when I was flying the pattern initially. Just kept stuffing it up. Then all of a sudden it just clicked and I did my first unassisted landing. That was a great confidence boost. Now all my landings are unassisted, they are just crap!
One of the instructors the other day said, its a steep learning curve at first, but you progress fast, then when you hit circuits it all levels out. Likewise, once you get past circuits, the advanced stuff progresses fast also. So I just need to bide my time I guess. Doing a club flyaway next weekend as a passenger, so that will give me an opportunity to sit back and relax and just observe some stuff. When doing circuits, I often forget why I am actually learning to fly!