Aircraft down in Channel
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Golf Mike Mike
Thank you for your post, can you tell us a bit more about Sasha and his flying experience, when he started, did he learn in a Cirrus, how many hours in type, how often he flew, was he a new equity owner in N147KA?
I had flown as a passenger in N147KA and had a great deal of respect for the way the group was founded and run, although the group model was ultimately not sustainable.
Reality is we do not have a clue what happened, seemed like he was unable, forget to get a May Day in, or chose not to.
Very weird wording from the police to be treating as a missing person investigation and coordinating with foreign police forces, on the very slim chance he is alive it would be a fascinating story but I fear he was overcome with whatever problem he faced.
Thank you for your post, can you tell us a bit more about Sasha and his flying experience, when he started, did he learn in a Cirrus, how many hours in type, how often he flew, was he a new equity owner in N147KA?
I had flown as a passenger in N147KA and had a great deal of respect for the way the group was founded and run, although the group model was ultimately not sustainable.
Reality is we do not have a clue what happened, seemed like he was unable, forget to get a May Day in, or chose not to.
Very weird wording from the police to be treating as a missing person investigation and coordinating with foreign police forces, on the very slim chance he is alive it would be a fascinating story but I fear he was overcome with whatever problem he faced.
Last edited by 007helicopter; 25th Jul 2013 at 17:24.
The underlying purpose of the FRTOL is that all radio operator's know how to make and handle messages relating to the safety of life. (ITU Radio Regulations Article 37) Once upon a time if you could not recite a MAYDAY call you would fail the RT Test, now it seems even the CAA regard ELP as more important than Emergency message handling.
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FBW
Please correct me if I am wrong...It seems you are implying yours is the only valid opinion on this matter by referring to guys out there that know better than you despite your 40 years of ATC experience. Do you know the experience or occupations of the other posters? Some of their knowledge may also be of significant value to this discussion. The scenario being discussed took place over the English Channel, do you have any experience of the RT loadings on London Info on a busy weekend? A lot of the posters do and know how difficult it can be to get a call in to London Info when its busy... Mayday or not. Do you know how reliable the London Info coverage is at low level in that area, is it better than D&D on 121.5? Is there more likelihood of being picked up on 124.600 midway across at 500 feet than there is by an EGLL inbound at FL150 directly overhead monitoring 121.5? There are many different opinions being offered, ranging from airline crews, GA pilots, ATCOs and D&D controllers. A FISO based at an area ACC is not necessarily the best person to call even if you are already on the frequency, it is certainly an option to be considered dependant on the circumstances at the time but most definitely is not the only show in town.
Moli
Please correct me if I am wrong...It seems you are implying yours is the only valid opinion on this matter by referring to guys out there that know better than you despite your 40 years of ATC experience. Do you know the experience or occupations of the other posters? Some of their knowledge may also be of significant value to this discussion. The scenario being discussed took place over the English Channel, do you have any experience of the RT loadings on London Info on a busy weekend? A lot of the posters do and know how difficult it can be to get a call in to London Info when its busy... Mayday or not. Do you know how reliable the London Info coverage is at low level in that area, is it better than D&D on 121.5? Is there more likelihood of being picked up on 124.600 midway across at 500 feet than there is by an EGLL inbound at FL150 directly overhead monitoring 121.5? There are many different opinions being offered, ranging from airline crews, GA pilots, ATCOs and D&D controllers. A FISO based at an area ACC is not necessarily the best person to call even if you are already on the frequency, it is certainly an option to be considered dependant on the circumstances at the time but most definitely is not the only show in town.
Moli
Last edited by Moli; 25th Jul 2013 at 18:54.
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Pure guess, but I'd guess the bulk of pilots have Manston on frequency and L2K on the flipflop at that point?
Does seem strange to have said nothing, but stranger things have happened.
Another poster said that radar=ssr, not always, ssr=bunts, Southend didn't have SSR until a while ago, but 7700 will certainly get someones attention.
T
Does seem strange to have said nothing, but stranger things have happened.
Another poster said that radar=ssr, not always, ssr=bunts, Southend didn't have SSR until a while ago, but 7700 will certainly get someones attention.
T
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007H
I'm afraid I don't have detailed information on Sascha's flying experience but no doubt this will come out of the investigation and it's perhaps more respectful for it to work that way. He had flown KA and several other FreeFlight aircraft.
I'm afraid I don't have detailed information on Sascha's flying experience but no doubt this will come out of the investigation and it's perhaps more respectful for it to work that way. He had flown KA and several other FreeFlight aircraft.
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Moli.......not at all but I am implying if your already in comms with an ATC agency then please make your initial Distress call with that agency.....certainly both London and Scottish have direct line comms with D&D so help is only seconds away. As for London coverage no I cannot comment on that And yes I fully understand how busy the London FIR frequency can be but I can Assure you a Mayday call would be heard amongst the rabble of noise.
I would also recommend that if able to do so at the time (remembering aviate,navigate,communicate) would be to Squawk 7700 as that would then show SOS on every radar that had you in cover and also alert D&D to the fact someone was in distress......the normal action from them would be a quick call to London/Scottish info asking if they were working traffic in the observed position...with mode S even better as they would have the ident of the aircraft.
So no Moli...all I am saying is if you already have contact with an ATC agency please advise them first of your problem without blindly trying to call D&D.......obviously if your not in comms with anyone and yes there are loads of folk out there that don't bother then an initial call on 121.5 to D&D would be appropriate.
I would also recommend that if able to do so at the time (remembering aviate,navigate,communicate) would be to Squawk 7700 as that would then show SOS on every radar that had you in cover and also alert D&D to the fact someone was in distress......the normal action from them would be a quick call to London/Scottish info asking if they were working traffic in the observed position...with mode S even better as they would have the ident of the aircraft.
So no Moli...all I am saying is if you already have contact with an ATC agency please advise them first of your problem without blindly trying to call D&D.......obviously if your not in comms with anyone and yes there are loads of folk out there that don't bother then an initial call on 121.5 to D&D would be appropriate.
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Moll...I have been following this thread purely as a source of information on the accident in the Channel.
However, FBW made a very pertinent point, then appeared to get set upon for stating, which I thought, was the blindingly obvious.
If you are speaking with someone on box 1, be it London FIS, ScottIsh FIS, or Heathrow approach, then that would be to whom I would make a Mayday call, in the unfortunate event I had to make one. I do not fly with box 2 on 121.5, maybe some do, but I generally have a pertinent comms frequency on box 2. The set up on box 1 would be who I am speaking to, the standby is who I may speak with next, and the third is in prepartion for either ATIS at my destination, or the next in line.
But each to his own, and everyone fly's their aeroplane, I assume, in the manner they feel safest.
However, FBW made a very pertinent point, then appeared to get set upon for stating, which I thought, was the blindingly obvious.
If you are speaking with someone on box 1, be it London FIS, ScottIsh FIS, or Heathrow approach, then that would be to whom I would make a Mayday call, in the unfortunate event I had to make one. I do not fly with box 2 on 121.5, maybe some do, but I generally have a pertinent comms frequency on box 2. The set up on box 1 would be who I am speaking to, the standby is who I may speak with next, and the third is in prepartion for either ATIS at my destination, or the next in line.
But each to his own, and everyone fly's their aeroplane, I assume, in the manner they feel safest.
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A 7700 squawk is going to be visible over a huge distance.
London Control for example see a long way into the land area of N France i.e. way across the Channel.
This accident doesn't make sense, but then a lot of things that some pilots do don't make sense. For all we know he might have been flying at 1000ft over the water. That sort of thing will be in the AAIB report, but by the time that comes out most people will have forgotten about it.
The police comments are very interesting. They must have a reason for saying that.
London Control for example see a long way into the land area of N France i.e. way across the Channel.
This accident doesn't make sense, but then a lot of things that some pilots do don't make sense. For all we know he might have been flying at 1000ft over the water. That sort of thing will be in the AAIB report, but by the time that comes out most people will have forgotten about it.
The police comments are very interesting. They must have a reason for saying that.
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FBW
I'm not sure if I am one of the "guys who always know better" but on two occasions I have been in the position of being able to help the SAR assets communicate when they have had technical problems (usually the HF) and being at low level are out of VHF range.
Having a very accurate starting point for the SAR services to start from has to be a major advantage during a search, an aircraft can glide a long way from 2000 ft and it is a very big sea when you are looking for a guy who is up to his neck in water, with all the airliners monitoring 121.5 this very accurate ditching position becomes available far beyond the range of the land based VHF triangulation system.
Having a very accurate starting point for the SAR services to start from has to be a major advantage during a search, an aircraft can glide a long way from 2000 ft and it is a very big sea when you are looking for a guy who is up to his neck in water, with all the airliners monitoring 121.5 this very accurate ditching position becomes available far beyond the range of the land based VHF triangulation system.
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A&C
Not sure what your getting at here but yes I agree, thats why I made the original post about trying to let ATC know at the earliest opportunity as to the predicament you are in......and yes after spending 20 years as a voulanteer lifeboat Coxwain I also agree about a guy up to his neck in the water is very difficult to see!
Having a very accurate starting point for the SAR services to start from has to be a major advantage during a search, an aircraft can glide a long way from 2000 ft and it is a very big sea when you are looking for a guy who is up to his neck in water, with all the airliners monitoring 121.5 this very accurate ditching position becomes available far beyond the range of the land based VHF triangulation system.
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Maxred
Apologies, I feel I have perhaps made my point badly. The point I was trying to make is I disagree with FBW’s assertion that you should always make your initial emergency call on the freq you are on at the time. In most circumstances I would agree with that but the case in point was about a channel crossing and the validity of declaring a mayday on the London Info freq. Anyone who offered an opinion contrary to FBW was accused of “sadly that shows how little you know about how the system works” and “not interested in listening to those in the know”. Incidentally, there are also people “in the know” on here that don’t work at Scottish Information.
I wholeheartedly agree that in general terms if you are in contact with an ATSU and have an emergency then it is highly probable that declaring it on that freq is the way ahead. However we were discussing particular circumstances involving the Channel crossing with London Info and the point I was trying to make is there are times that 124.600 is a very busy and congested frequency especially so during sunny weekends. Even if you manage to begin your transmission there is an excellent chance that pilot B many miles away at 2000 wont hear your transmission on 124.600 and will talk over the top of you blissfully unaware that you are trying to get a mayday out and London Info wont hear it or at best get a garbled message…it happens.
All I was suggesting and disagreeing with FBW over, is that there are other options and considerations (as suggested by several posters) other than religiously transmitting on the freq presently in use particularly if on a busy London Info freq. If I were crossing the channel with London Info on a typically busy RT day and wished to declare a Mayday, I would squawk 7700 and call D&D on 121.5 in a heartbeat.
Just my opinion, if you don’t agree with me, that is absolutely fine, I most certainly will not question anyone’s knowledge or accuse others of ignoring one in the know.
Safe flying
Moli
Apologies, I feel I have perhaps made my point badly. The point I was trying to make is I disagree with FBW’s assertion that you should always make your initial emergency call on the freq you are on at the time. In most circumstances I would agree with that but the case in point was about a channel crossing and the validity of declaring a mayday on the London Info freq. Anyone who offered an opinion contrary to FBW was accused of “sadly that shows how little you know about how the system works” and “not interested in listening to those in the know”. Incidentally, there are also people “in the know” on here that don’t work at Scottish Information.
I wholeheartedly agree that in general terms if you are in contact with an ATSU and have an emergency then it is highly probable that declaring it on that freq is the way ahead. However we were discussing particular circumstances involving the Channel crossing with London Info and the point I was trying to make is there are times that 124.600 is a very busy and congested frequency especially so during sunny weekends. Even if you manage to begin your transmission there is an excellent chance that pilot B many miles away at 2000 wont hear your transmission on 124.600 and will talk over the top of you blissfully unaware that you are trying to get a mayday out and London Info wont hear it or at best get a garbled message…it happens.
All I was suggesting and disagreeing with FBW over, is that there are other options and considerations (as suggested by several posters) other than religiously transmitting on the freq presently in use particularly if on a busy London Info freq. If I were crossing the channel with London Info on a typically busy RT day and wished to declare a Mayday, I would squawk 7700 and call D&D on 121.5 in a heartbeat.
Just my opinion, if you don’t agree with me, that is absolutely fine, I most certainly will not question anyone’s knowledge or accuse others of ignoring one in the know.
Safe flying
Moli
Last edited by Moli; 26th Jul 2013 at 15:36.
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FBW
If you happen to be reading this, I am not trying to be difficult I just disagree with your point of view and how you have reacted to some other posters input.
I can see that you are very passionate about what you do and its nice to have a SCATCC FISO being so pro GA on here as you have been over the years.
No hard feelings
Moli
If you happen to be reading this, I am not trying to be difficult I just disagree with your point of view and how you have reacted to some other posters input.
I can see that you are very passionate about what you do and its nice to have a SCATCC FISO being so pro GA on here as you have been over the years.
No hard feelings
Moli
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Moli,
I understand the general point of thinking about what one is doing; but if the frequency is so congested you can't even get a Mayday out, why try and work it. There are a number of other agencies you could work in that part of the world. After all, about the only thing London Info is going to do on that trip is coordinate your squawk with Lille - - which they will fail to do on a timely basis with that much RT traffic. (note, not a dig at London who I find to be top blokes on the occassions I need to use them)
I understand the general point of thinking about what one is doing; but if the frequency is so congested you can't even get a Mayday out, why try and work it. There are a number of other agencies you could work in that part of the world. After all, about the only thing London Info is going to do on that trip is coordinate your squawk with Lille - - which they will fail to do on a timely basis with that much RT traffic. (note, not a dig at London who I find to be top blokes on the occassions I need to use them)
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Moli
Thanks Moli, for sure I am passionate about the job I do, I even give up a fair bit of my spare time to visit our local Scottish flying clubs to promote the ATC service's available free of charge to our GA community.......even tomorrow although up north on holiday I plan to spend an hour or so at the Dornoch fly-in to hopefully put a face to the voice they often hear on the radio.......as for hard feelings do not be silly, those that know me will tell you I am a grumpy old duffer that does not suffer fools gladly but would go to the end of the world and back to help any fellow aviator or sailor. 
I can see that you are very passionate about what you do and its nice to have a SCATCC FISO being so pro GA on here as you have been over the years.
No hard feelings
Moli
No hard feelings
Moli
Last edited by fisbangwollop; 26th Jul 2013 at 17:25.
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Let me add a bit of history to this discussion about declaring an emergency on a congested frequency.
While researching a Cirrus accident from 2010 in which the pilot was flying VFR and not talking to ATC, he declared an emergency on 121.5. We have an audio recording of that transmission and the follow-up. Several sectors heard the transmission and attempted to reach the pilot in sequence. Unfortunately, the replies from the pilot in distress were fragmentary, took several retransmissions, and lacked some crucial information to clarify if west or east of a named location.
This pilot in that earlier accident was not talking to anyone. And it took a while to sort things out. Time that others might not have.
My take-away lessons for handling an emergency:
1) Best to be in communication when IFR or even VFR, what folks in the US call flight-following
2) Best to declare with the agency who is following you since they have your info, especially location
3) Best to squawk 7700 as a redundancy to the radio
4) Best to monitor 121.5, as strongly urged by the FAA when you have 2 radios, to help others
5) Carry a 406mHz PLB on your person, and know how to activate it
Cheers
Rick
* edited to clarify that this history applies to an older Cirrus accident
While researching a Cirrus accident from 2010 in which the pilot was flying VFR and not talking to ATC, he declared an emergency on 121.5. We have an audio recording of that transmission and the follow-up. Several sectors heard the transmission and attempted to reach the pilot in sequence. Unfortunately, the replies from the pilot in distress were fragmentary, took several retransmissions, and lacked some crucial information to clarify if west or east of a named location.
This pilot in that earlier accident was not talking to anyone. And it took a while to sort things out. Time that others might not have.
My take-away lessons for handling an emergency:
1) Best to be in communication when IFR or even VFR, what folks in the US call flight-following
2) Best to declare with the agency who is following you since they have your info, especially location
3) Best to squawk 7700 as a redundancy to the radio
4) Best to monitor 121.5, as strongly urged by the FAA when you have 2 radios, to help others
5) Carry a 406mHz PLB on your person, and know how to activate it
Cheers
Rick
* edited to clarify that this history applies to an older Cirrus accident
Last edited by sdbeach; 26th Jul 2013 at 23:21.
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Jollyrog...
If you nean the North Channel well hopefully we will be there to help.....if you mean the Englsh Channel maybe it is your failed attempt at humour?
I'm going to tune to Scottish Information each time I cross the Channel in future, they're there to help.
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Rick when you say "we have a recording" who do you mean by we, have you been consulted by rescue services? Is the recording in the public domain?
Duncan
Duncan
Last edited by 007helicopter; 26th Jul 2013 at 20:43.