Aircraft down in Channel
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Originally Posted by 007helicopter
Rick when you say "we have a recording" who do you mean by we, have you been consulted by rescue services? Is the recording in the public domain?
Duncan
Duncan
We = COPA. I used it in my safety review at the M11 Migration in Mobile last month.
No, we were not contacted by rescue services. The audio recording was produced by the ATC folks after the fact. It is mentioned as the transcript of ATC communications in the NTSB investigation docket.
Not in the public domain as an audio recording, although I am in the process of posting the M11 safety review on the web. It will be part of my discussion of the human factors involved with the Morton, Washington fatal Cirrus accident.
Cheers
Rick
Last edited by sdbeach; 26th Jul 2013 at 23:22.
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Rick
The setup here in the UK is different. We don't have flight following in the way the US does and the guys at Scottish & London Info don't have radar (London has visibility of a display about 6 feet away but the FISOs are not licensed to use it for control purposes, not sure about the Scottish setup?) , they don't allocate discrete squawks so therefore they never have you identified or know where you actually are.
Forgive me if I am telling you something you already know but another difference over here is we have a dedicated unit of ATCOs that cover the whole of the UK and their sole job is to handle emergency traffic on 121.5 and 243.0. They have primacy on the emergency freqs and it would be them (D&D) that would answer all calls on the freqs not ATSUs that happen to be monitoring as part of their spare capacity. The D&D cell has all sorts of kit to assist them that normal ATSUs don't have access to.
Moli
The setup here in the UK is different. We don't have flight following in the way the US does and the guys at Scottish & London Info don't have radar (London has visibility of a display about 6 feet away but the FISOs are not licensed to use it for control purposes, not sure about the Scottish setup?) , they don't allocate discrete squawks so therefore they never have you identified or know where you actually are.
Forgive me if I am telling you something you already know but another difference over here is we have a dedicated unit of ATCOs that cover the whole of the UK and their sole job is to handle emergency traffic on 121.5 and 243.0. They have primacy on the emergency freqs and it would be them (D&D) that would answer all calls on the freqs not ATSUs that happen to be monitoring as part of their spare capacity. The D&D cell has all sorts of kit to assist them that normal ATSUs don't have access to.
Moli
Last edited by Moli; 27th Jul 2013 at 08:10.
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FBW
Rest assured I will be availing myself of your services over the August bank holiday weekend, wx permitting. I am flying up your neck of the woods to Barra Benbecula and Stornoway.... GBIPV, look after us and please provide beautiful weather
Moli
Rest assured I will be availing myself of your services over the August bank holiday weekend, wx permitting. I am flying up your neck of the woods to Barra Benbecula and Stornoway.... GBIPV, look after us and please provide beautiful weather
Moli
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Sam yes possible, on a practical level it is quite hard (not sure if possible) to open a Cirrus door in flight to allow access out, you could I guess more easily remove / smash a window to vacate the aircraft.
However unlikely or far fetched this would seem I am very sure it would not be a first in GA.
My bet however is a regular loss of control but as previously pointed out could be a 100 different hypothetical reasons.
Still very strange wording of the police force which inevitably would create speculation.
However unlikely or far fetched this would seem I am very sure it would not be a first in GA.
My bet however is a regular loss of control but as previously pointed out could be a 100 different hypothetical reasons.
Still very strange wording of the police force which inevitably would create speculation.
How about opening a door after deploying the CAPS at altitude?
Does the CAPS deployment automatically trigger the ELT? That would seem to be a logical idea but I don't know if that's how it has been designed.
Does the CAPS deployment automatically trigger the ELT? That would seem to be a logical idea but I don't know if that's how it has been designed.
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At the beginning of this thread, it appeared unseemly to attempt any sort of humour...I therefore resisted posting
"shades of Lord Lucan"
Given the recent speculation and the unorthodox wording of the Plod statement, I feel it'll be OK now.
"shades of Lord Lucan"
One is also reminded of the disappearing canoist.
"shades of Lord Lucan"
Given the recent speculation and the unorthodox wording of the Plod statement, I feel it'll be OK now.
"shades of Lord Lucan"
One is also reminded of the disappearing canoist.
"Officers say they are keeping an open mind as to what happened, and have launched a missing person investigation. They have released his photograph in case he has been spotted since the crash."
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To those stating remain in contact, I flew (VFR) over the channel on Monday (from EBOS coasting down to LFAC and then across to DVR, stayed in contact with Lille Info then Manston Radar, not a problem. However where I had a slight problem was flying back yesterday where I decided to depart from Cambridge more or less direct over the North Sea to Middelburg; I was handed off to London Info once I'd just overflown the coast but after around 15 minutes, London Info became relatively silent - apart from the odd plane sending a report crossing the channel or similar, to which I heard no reply.
Obviously I was now out of range for the controller (and on Dutch Mil, which I'd put on box 2, was also an eery silence). I was thinking about this thread hoping there wouldn't be an additional comment added stating "another one went down en route from Cambridge to Middelburg", put 121.5 on the flip-flop and hoped for the best. About 10 minutes later I finally started receiving Dutch Mil.
So basically there are areas out over the North Sea where you won't necessarily be able to contact any ground based controllers and depending on the altitude of the unfortunate pilot, maybe he was just too low, trying to run low cloud or similar and sent out a Mayday which wasn't received anywhere, after all, if his Mayday stepped on someone who was also transmitting, then all that listeners would have heard was a squeal.....
Obviously I was now out of range for the controller (and on Dutch Mil, which I'd put on box 2, was also an eery silence). I was thinking about this thread hoping there wouldn't be an additional comment added stating "another one went down en route from Cambridge to Middelburg", put 121.5 on the flip-flop and hoped for the best. About 10 minutes later I finally started receiving Dutch Mil.
So basically there are areas out over the North Sea where you won't necessarily be able to contact any ground based controllers and depending on the altitude of the unfortunate pilot, maybe he was just too low, trying to run low cloud or similar and sent out a Mayday which wasn't received anywhere, after all, if his Mayday stepped on someone who was also transmitting, then all that listeners would have heard was a squeal.....
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Originally Posted by cockney steve
"shades of Lord Lucan"
One is also reminded of the disappearing canoist
One is also reminded of the disappearing canoist
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Steve6443
I doubt if the pilot transmitted a Mayday on 121.5 as there would have been a large number of airliners that would have received the transmission no matter how low the aircraft.
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Guys,
Just be extremely careful with jumping to any conclusions with the speculation.
In am not suggesting that my thoughts are accurate in this instance, but I do speak with first hand experience from a slightly similar scenario.
Mr Schornstein is thought to be a successful RBS Banker. It would not be exaggerating to believe that he had a some hefty life insurance policies in place.
"IF" Mrs Schornstein has a "Kevin Crellin" (David Henderson) type of person assisting her, he/she will be lining there own pockets in the interim.
Insurance companies do not need much of any excuse not to honour any policy, so bear this in mind. Insurance companies also pay a "bounty"
Let's see how this one maps out.
Just be extremely careful with jumping to any conclusions with the speculation.
In am not suggesting that my thoughts are accurate in this instance, but I do speak with first hand experience from a slightly similar scenario.
Mr Schornstein is thought to be a successful RBS Banker. It would not be exaggerating to believe that he had a some hefty life insurance policies in place.
"IF" Mrs Schornstein has a "Kevin Crellin" (David Henderson) type of person assisting her, he/she will be lining there own pockets in the interim.
Insurance companies do not need much of any excuse not to honour any policy, so bear this in mind. Insurance companies also pay a "bounty"
Let's see how this one maps out.
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Sam, no the CAPS does not trigger the ELT
I assume the door could be opened with ease once a CAPS pull has happened, in this particular case I am assuming no CAPS as the plane disintegrated suggesting extreme high impact, these are very strong aircraft and takes considerable G forces to break them up.
BTW my preferred ditching option over water would be CAPS giving more time to prepare for hopefully a safe exit into the dingy and make May Day calls etc.
I assume the door could be opened with ease once a CAPS pull has happened, in this particular case I am assuming no CAPS as the plane disintegrated suggesting extreme high impact, these are very strong aircraft and takes considerable G forces to break them up.
BTW my preferred ditching option over water would be CAPS giving more time to prepare for hopefully a safe exit into the dingy and make May Day calls etc.
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Before the conspiracy theorists get too carried away, it is of course equally likely I'm afraid that Sascha went down still strapped in his seat, together with the central part of the fuselage, though we don't know which bits they recovered, other than side panels with the KA reg on. If the engine were still attached to the cockpit floor and seats, it would all sink like a stone. So technically he is missing unaccounted for unless a dive were carried out to confirm one way or another, that's for the insurers and police I guess.
As operated in FreeFlight (KA only recently transferred out), all the SR22s had a 406 MHz ELT (activated manually or on violent impact), a 4-person liferaft, 4 life jackets, mode S transponder, Skywatch, TAWS-B terrain awareness, lightning detection, a specialised hammer to smash an exit in the side windows, and of course Autopilot, leading-edge icing protection, CAPS and air bag front seat belts as standard. They cruised comfortably at 150-155kts which would certainly be dis-orienting if majorly out of stable flight. Sadly there have now been a few instances of CAPS pulls not working correctly and if only partially deployed it would be pretty terminal.
If they recovered the MFD this would have a recording of all the major flight parameters leading up to the incident, not sure how long that could survive for though. KA wasn't a G3 that additionally have a flight data recorder fitted.
As operated in FreeFlight (KA only recently transferred out), all the SR22s had a 406 MHz ELT (activated manually or on violent impact), a 4-person liferaft, 4 life jackets, mode S transponder, Skywatch, TAWS-B terrain awareness, lightning detection, a specialised hammer to smash an exit in the side windows, and of course Autopilot, leading-edge icing protection, CAPS and air bag front seat belts as standard. They cruised comfortably at 150-155kts which would certainly be dis-orienting if majorly out of stable flight. Sadly there have now been a few instances of CAPS pulls not working correctly and if only partially deployed it would be pretty terminal.
If they recovered the MFD this would have a recording of all the major flight parameters leading up to the incident, not sure how long that could survive for though. KA wasn't a G3 that additionally have a flight data recorder fitted.
At the beginning of this thread it was reported that no overdue action was taken for a number of hours. Not really surprising with the number flight plans, both in and out, that Le Touquet have to deal with...not an excuse a fact.
More than likely someone in the UK phoned the UK Police when they couldnt get hold of him and Plod therefore opened a missing person file and alerts the various rescue authorities.
I suspect nothing more sinister...but Im sure some will wish to hype it up for all its worth.
More than likely someone in the UK phoned the UK Police when they couldnt get hold of him and Plod therefore opened a missing person file and alerts the various rescue authorities.
I suspect nothing more sinister...but Im sure some will wish to hype it up for all its worth.
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GMC
Thanks for that post as it brings some welcome facts to the thread. I too think the pilot perished in the crash and with such a high speed impact was killed instantly which in a slight way might have been best - I have a fear drowning which limits my involvement with deep water.
One thing I've not spotted in this thread is any reference to NATS recording of radar data including SSR Mode S.
By now AAIB should have details of the track, height and any unusual deviations leading up to the impact point. I suspect in a few months much of the speculation here will be disproved and the 'normality' of this accident confirmed. I use the word normal as coined by Charles Perrow in the mid 80's.
The only nagging doubt is due to the words used by the Police, which to the best of my knowledge have not been redacted. If the person in question survived the crash one way he could have done so was by not being in the plane in the first place.
Is there conclusive evidence that he took off from the 'bushe? Was his car left in the car park? Is anyone else missing?
The sea can give up its secrets so maybe time will tell.
SGC
Thanks for that post as it brings some welcome facts to the thread. I too think the pilot perished in the crash and with such a high speed impact was killed instantly which in a slight way might have been best - I have a fear drowning which limits my involvement with deep water.
One thing I've not spotted in this thread is any reference to NATS recording of radar data including SSR Mode S.
By now AAIB should have details of the track, height and any unusual deviations leading up to the impact point. I suspect in a few months much of the speculation here will be disproved and the 'normality' of this accident confirmed. I use the word normal as coined by Charles Perrow in the mid 80's.
The only nagging doubt is due to the words used by the Police, which to the best of my knowledge have not been redacted. If the person in question survived the crash one way he could have done so was by not being in the plane in the first place.
Is there conclusive evidence that he took off from the 'bushe? Was his car left in the car park? Is anyone else missing?
The sea can give up its secrets so maybe time will tell.
SGC
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Not sure an ELT would be triggered in a Cirrus hanging under a chute. An ELT's G switch works on a shock along the normal axis as in a normal crash, not a slam vertically down. That is unless Cirrus use a different type of ELT to all the others.
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Moli...
Of course we will take care of you, we respect our customers up here and fall over backwards to be as helpfull as possible.....as for the weather well we have had a great month so far but if you come with a plan to expect 4 seasons in one day you will not go far wrong.....if you stage through Prestwick I will arrange a visit to the ATC centre if you so wished then you can see my side of the office 
Rest assured I will be availing myself of your services over the August bank holiday weekend, wx permitting. I am flying up your neck of the woods to Barra Benbecula and Stornoway.... GBIPV, look after us and please provide beautiful weather
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FBW
Thanks for the offer but I have had several work related visits to PC over the years.
Hopefully the Hebrides trip will come off, had to can cancel a few weeks ago for wx
Moli
Thanks for the offer but I have had several work related visits to PC over the years.
Hopefully the Hebrides trip will come off, had to can cancel a few weeks ago for wx
Moli
CAPS and ELT
Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated?
Seems logical to me, but perhaps there's a reason not to do this?
Fly safe, Sam.
Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated?
Seems logical to me, but perhaps there's a reason not to do this?
Fly safe, Sam.