Aircraft down in Channel
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Sam it certainly would seem logical, I do not know the technical reasons why this would not be the case.
I know there has been at least one CAPS pull where the ELT was not manually activated or activated by the ground impact where it hampered the search.
I know there has been at least one CAPS pull where the ELT was not manually activated or activated by the ground impact where it hampered the search.
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated
Cheers
Rick
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The ELT transmits on 406 MHz so no conflict with normal airband frequencies, including 121.5
Because this one transmits on 121.5
Kannad Fast find 220 PLB with GPS
According to this, it sends out a signal on both frequencies:
http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.c...3772-131R2.pdf
On another note, is it possible to set up a flight plan on a cirrus then just make it crash at a predetermined point? Could you just line-up and jump out, or would you have to take-off, set the autopilot, then parachute?
http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.c...3772-131R2.pdf
On another note, is it possible to set up a flight plan on a cirrus then just make it crash at a predetermined point? Could you just line-up and jump out, or would you have to take-off, set the autopilot, then parachute?
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On another note, is it possible to set up a flight plan on a cirrus then just make it crash at a predetermined point? Could you just line-up and jump out, or would you have to take-off, set the autopilot, then parachute?
Line up and jump out not possible due to doors and delay getting out once take off power set. You would most likely run yourself down.
Parachuting out also not likely due to doors /slipstream in flight. I opened both doors on a training flight recently to complete the Cirrus training item and demonstrated closing after slowing the aircraft close to stall speed. You need to be very close to stall to ensure that you can overcome the slipstream enough to close the door, even at that speed there is sufficient resistance to prevent a person exiting the door ( especially with a backpack chute) , would also need a lift once in the sea !
Line up and jump out not possible due to doors and delay getting out once take off power set. You would most likely run yourself down.
Parachuting out also not likely due to doors /slipstream in flight. I opened both doors on a training flight recently to complete the Cirrus training item and demonstrated closing after slowing the aircraft close to stall speed. You need to be very close to stall to ensure that you can overcome the slipstream enough to close the door, even at that speed there is sufficient resistance to prevent a person exiting the door ( especially with a backpack chute) , would also need a lift once in the sea !
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The only way to have an aircraft on autopilot and make it crash at a known point is to make it run out of fuel.
If you shut off the fuel cock and then jump out, that would do it. The engine stops (windmills), the aircraft slows down, still flying level on autopilot, and just before it stalls you open the door and jump out.
That way you could choose where to jump out.
If you shut off the fuel cock and then jump out, that would do it. The engine stops (windmills), the aircraft slows down, still flying level on autopilot, and just before it stalls you open the door and jump out.
That way you could choose where to jump out.
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Well it seems the AAIB has no intention of salvaging the aircraft from the sea bed to find out what really happened and bizarrely the police still have this down as a missing person enquiry. This is contrary to the French authorities action over the Cirrus lost off Guernsey a while back. So Sascha's young wife and his work and flying friends are hoping to find out the truth themselves - please pledge if you can and feel strongly as I do that the AAIB shouldn't have left so many facts unanswered.
http://www.justgiving.com/local/project/findhim
http://www.justgiving.com/local/project/findhim
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Very sad to read of this incident and that AAIB have decided not to recover the wreckage but I'm sure they realise the cost implications.
Chartering Subsea vessels is my day job and I've done work like this for the MOD recovering crashed aircraft etc as well as lots of salvage work as an aside to the mainstream Oil and Gas works we do. I'm sorry to say GBP £10,000 really isnt going to get you very far at all.
To find the wreckage you'll need to comb the area using sidescan sonar which could take days and days. Once you find it I'd then suggest using an Observation class ROV would work out much cheaper than divers depending on the water depth.
You then have things like port dues, fuel, lubricants and a lot of other additional costs to add on. Your best bet is to grab a small survey vessel as close to the location as possible to try to get a sonar / visual survey done then decide what to do from there.
Regards
UA
Chartering Subsea vessels is my day job and I've done work like this for the MOD recovering crashed aircraft etc as well as lots of salvage work as an aside to the mainstream Oil and Gas works we do. I'm sorry to say GBP £10,000 really isnt going to get you very far at all.
To find the wreckage you'll need to comb the area using sidescan sonar which could take days and days. Once you find it I'd then suggest using an Observation class ROV would work out much cheaper than divers depending on the water depth.
You then have things like port dues, fuel, lubricants and a lot of other additional costs to add on. Your best bet is to grab a small survey vessel as close to the location as possible to try to get a sonar / visual survey done then decide what to do from there.
Regards
UA
Last edited by Unusual Attitude; 29th Jul 2013 at 14:57.
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UA - If the aircraft came down where the initial report indicated (15nm south of Dungeness), the seabed should be at no more than 30-40m, which is easily within recreational dive limits (that would be my other way of passing weekends), though I am not sure what the currents are like in that part of the Channel as the nearest to this I've dived is off Devon & Cornwall.
You would, of course, have to know where to dive first, and there is a great deal of other wreckage in the Channel which might make locating a small aircraft rather difficult, but it should not be a problem getting people down there if a location can be established. Not sure what the pros would charge for such an operation but it does not seem that it would require any technical diving.
You would, of course, have to know where to dive first, and there is a great deal of other wreckage in the Channel which might make locating a small aircraft rather difficult, but it should not be a problem getting people down there if a location can be established. Not sure what the pros would charge for such an operation but it does not seem that it would require any technical diving.
Last edited by JDA2012; 30th Jul 2013 at 09:55.
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Would it not make sense for them to be linked by the manufacturer - ie when the CAPS is pulled, the ELT is also activated?
Because of this, you will want both CAPS and ELT to work completely independent from any other system there is in the aircraft.
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UA / JDA
Re location, my understanding is that the pilot's wife has already been in touch with salvage companies and the authorities (eg AAIB / ATC) who have supplied a position of the likely wreckage site from last Sunday. She has also just put in a plea for help on BBC South Today tonight, appearing with Hampshire Police - who are still asking for information as to the pilot's whereabouts, doh ?!?
I also understand that the insurance may cover reimbursement of 'reasonable' salvage and recovery costs so the £10k is a starter to get a crew to do an initial dive I think and other monies have already been pledged.
Re location, my understanding is that the pilot's wife has already been in touch with salvage companies and the authorities (eg AAIB / ATC) who have supplied a position of the likely wreckage site from last Sunday. She has also just put in a plea for help on BBC South Today tonight, appearing with Hampshire Police - who are still asking for information as to the pilot's whereabouts, doh ?!?
I also understand that the insurance may cover reimbursement of 'reasonable' salvage and recovery costs so the £10k is a starter to get a crew to do an initial dive I think and other monies have already been pledged.
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Belowradar
Should you really be opening the doors in flight as part of a training manoeuvre ?
I don't think your insurance company would like to hear about that and I certainly wouldn't consider it good airmanship.
I have had doors come open in flight and it is not a situation that should be taken likely as there are demons out there ready to catch you out and ruin your day/life.
I would like to see where it is shown as part of a training syllabus !
Should you really be opening the doors in flight as part of a training manoeuvre ?
I don't think your insurance company would like to hear about that and I certainly wouldn't consider it good airmanship.
I have had doors come open in flight and it is not a situation that should be taken likely as there are demons out there ready to catch you out and ruin your day/life.
I would like to see where it is shown as part of a training syllabus !
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GYROTYRO
As you are questioning this point I will leave it with you to figure out if you are a CSIP and what the transition training syllabus might contain.
I don't think this is an appropriate thread for a discussion about that
I was posting to answer a query raised in order to provide an answer and highlight what I believe is an unlikely scenario
As you are questioning this point I will leave it with you to figure out if you are a CSIP and what the transition training syllabus might contain.
I don't think this is an appropriate thread for a discussion about that
I was posting to answer a query raised in order to provide an answer and highlight what I believe is an unlikely scenario
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The only way to have an aircraft on autopilot and make it crash at a known point is to make it run out of fuel.
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Like Unusual Attitude I have a fair bit of subsea experience in oil and gas. £10k would fund some amateurs divng on a known site.
Finding a light aircraft in tidal water with poor-ish visibility and piles of other wreckage on the seabed? You can search for months.
A light aircraft can easily travel several hundred metres before it reaches the seabed, it may well continue to move - until too heavy or restrained by something. The only way to find it is a sidescan survey and then ROV on all the likely objects - of which there are likely to be many.
'Known positions' are actually just vague approximations in this game. Unless there is a team of committed amateurs doing this work the costs of fidnign and recovering the aircrafft would considerably outweigh the new hull cost.
Finding a light aircraft in tidal water with poor-ish visibility and piles of other wreckage on the seabed? You can search for months.
A light aircraft can easily travel several hundred metres before it reaches the seabed, it may well continue to move - until too heavy or restrained by something. The only way to find it is a sidescan survey and then ROV on all the likely objects - of which there are likely to be many.
'Known positions' are actually just vague approximations in this game. Unless there is a team of committed amateurs doing this work the costs of fidnign and recovering the aircrafft would considerably outweigh the new hull cost.
I've seen sonar plots of the channel around there. There's a huge amount of rubbish, bits of shipwrecks, spread all over the place - some of it tangled up with old fishing nets.
Unless you have a very good idea of exactly where to start, you could spend weeks checking it all out. I'm not a diver, but I would have thought the shipping lanes present a problem too.
Unless you have a very good idea of exactly where to start, you could spend weeks checking it all out. I'm not a diver, but I would have thought the shipping lanes present a problem too.