Aircraft down in Channel
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I have never flown the Channel VFR although I have done so many times IFR in airways so I apologise if this idea doesn't work.
On the subject of people hearing Mayday calls from a VFR pilot when the radio is busy, would suggest making contact with a radar service before coasting out and, if something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.
On the subject of people hearing Mayday calls from a VFR pilot when the radio is busy, would suggest making contact with a radar service before coasting out and, if something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.
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<<If something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.>>
If they have radar... and if they have SSR.
If they have radar... and if they have SSR.
(and, I thought also SSR?)
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On the subject of people hearing Mayday calls from a VFR pilot when the radio is busy, would suggest making contact with a radar service before coasting out and, if something goes wrong and the circuit is busy, squawk 7700 and they will call you.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2013-04-04.pdf
Note that not all units are 24/7. Manston is supposedly 7 days a week, but 9-17 only. Plymouth is only Monday to Thursday 9-17 and Friday 9-14. (UK AIP ENR 1.6)
If I cross Calais-Dover or Koksijde-Dover I prefer to talk to Manston, if possible. But for all other routes you don't get a lot of choice. It's typically London Info or nothing at all.
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Thats not quite true.
Lille will have you on radar from well before the boundary even if they dont give you a service.
Personally i always find lyd useful. While it is non radar they will provide radio cover for a coast out at lyd usually with a cheery report ten miles south abeam. Were you to need assistance you could report your position to them.
Lille will have you on radar from well before the boundary even if they dont give you a service.
Personally i always find lyd useful. While it is non radar they will provide radio cover for a coast out at lyd usually with a cheery report ten miles south abeam. Were you to need assistance you could report your position to them.
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You're better off calling Lille in an emergency on the short crossing, because the closest SAR helicopter is based at Le Touquet.
Les hélicoptères de la MARINE NATIONALE
Les hélicoptères de la MARINE NATIONALE
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121.5 coverage
Most of the talk above has totally missed the point about 121.5 coverage, the coverage is total over most of the world simply because almost everywhere there will be an airliner in the cruise at FL300+ monitoring 121.5.
When an airliner crew hears a distress call on 121.5 they will relay the call to the ATS unit they are working.
My advice is that if you do find yourself about to ditch, turn your GPS to the mode that displays the radial and distance from the nearest VOR/DME and transmit the radial & distance and that you are about to ditch, a position report in this format it unlikely to be misunderstood by an airline crew and can be put into the FMS of a rescue helicopter in seconds to get help to you as fast as posable.
(If I was to hear such a message when in an airliner I would put is onto the fix page of my FMS to record it. If I was in a light aircraft and near the location I would put it into the user waypoints of the GPS and if I could try to get to the location to help direct the rescue helicopter by locating and keeping the people in sight.)
Your last transmission can be as low as fifty feet and the very accurate position report will be with the authority's within seconds via a relay from an airliner the problem is then close range conspicuity for that you need a PLB, flares & a sea marker to enable the helicopter crew to locate you quickly.
The aim of the game is to take the search out of search & rescue.
When an airliner crew hears a distress call on 121.5 they will relay the call to the ATS unit they are working.
My advice is that if you do find yourself about to ditch, turn your GPS to the mode that displays the radial and distance from the nearest VOR/DME and transmit the radial & distance and that you are about to ditch, a position report in this format it unlikely to be misunderstood by an airline crew and can be put into the FMS of a rescue helicopter in seconds to get help to you as fast as posable.
(If I was to hear such a message when in an airliner I would put is onto the fix page of my FMS to record it. If I was in a light aircraft and near the location I would put it into the user waypoints of the GPS and if I could try to get to the location to help direct the rescue helicopter by locating and keeping the people in sight.)
Your last transmission can be as low as fifty feet and the very accurate position report will be with the authority's within seconds via a relay from an airliner the problem is then close range conspicuity for that you need a PLB, flares & a sea marker to enable the helicopter crew to locate you quickly.
The aim of the game is to take the search out of search & rescue.
Last edited by A and C; 25th Jul 2013 at 10:41.
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I always go with Lydd too, it's the easiest to get a word in with.
I have on several occasions done a practice PAN with D&D on the way back from Le Touquet, just after crossing the FIR. From 4,500 feet, RT is S5. Every time, they've been able to give me a position fix based on triangulation, sometimes with only two sites as it's right at the edge of their triangulation area. Their fixes have always been accurate.
If you are up nice and high if/when your problems start, you'll have plenty of time to get a call in to anybody you like. If you insist at crossing at 2,000 feet, as some people do, it will be a different story.
I have on several occasions done a practice PAN with D&D on the way back from Le Touquet, just after crossing the FIR. From 4,500 feet, RT is S5. Every time, they've been able to give me a position fix based on triangulation, sometimes with only two sites as it's right at the edge of their triangulation area. Their fixes have always been accurate.
If you are up nice and high if/when your problems start, you'll have plenty of time to get a call in to anybody you like. If you insist at crossing at 2,000 feet, as some people do, it will be a different story.
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D&D is a great service in the UK and of course 121.5 is well monitored by a range of entities, including airliners. However, the overall point of a number of posters (including myself), is that having already established two way contact with an agency and having your radio tuned to them, in most cases, you will be better off broadcasting your initial Mayday to the agency you are already speaking with rather than spending time and mental bandwidth switching to another box, or dialling up 121.5 (even if it is a simple button push). The specific case I would switch to D&D (but not 121.5 generally) is if I was not talking with a radar unit and was unsure of (or unable to articulate) my position and had reason to believe I might not be in SSR coverage, when D&D's VDF fixing capability would be specifically very useful.
Of course if you just getting a basic service from an aerodrome 10 miles away (why?), or not talking to anyone in particular, 121.5 is the obvious choice.
There is also the London Information case, where people indicate they call up, get a service, and in the specific case motivating the thread are expecting London to come back with a new squawk and handover for Lille, etc.; but the frequency is too busy to actually get a mayday out - a case I fundamentally don't believe exists in any material way, as if it is so busy you can't get a Mayday out, why would you try and get a routine service from them - hence you would choose to be in contact with someone else or no one at all (and then clearly 121.5 is your goto frequency).
Of course if you just getting a basic service from an aerodrome 10 miles away (why?), or not talking to anyone in particular, 121.5 is the obvious choice.
There is also the London Information case, where people indicate they call up, get a service, and in the specific case motivating the thread are expecting London to come back with a new squawk and handover for Lille, etc.; but the frequency is too busy to actually get a mayday out - a case I fundamentally don't believe exists in any material way, as if it is so busy you can't get a Mayday out, why would you try and get a routine service from them - hence you would choose to be in contact with someone else or no one at all (and then clearly 121.5 is your goto frequency).
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It has been done to death, but actually as tempting as it maybe, the radio is hardly the first priority in any event. Stabilise or resolve the emergency is what we are taught. In the event of a engine failure without warning (a very rare event) setting the aircraft up for a glide is far more important.
Frankly the only good a Mayday is going to be is telling the rescue service they need to look for you and where to look. Therefore unless you are at very low level having stabilised or resolved a Mayday giving your position will likely be heard by whoever you happen to be talking to even if you repeat the call a few times over the top of everything and everyone!
Personally I always know where to instantly find my GPS co-ordinates and I think it is good practice to make sure your eyes go straight to this information. It is all that really matters.
I also agree that an EPIRB is almost vital over the sea. Frankly once you have ditched you need some form of locator beacon as you will drift surprisingly quickly and more likely than not the aircraft will sink with varying degrees of rapidity.
However, to repeat myself, if you don't get down reasonably in one piece, all the Maydays in the world aren't going to be much help so concentrate on that part first - I know it is tempting to think otherwise!
Frankly the only good a Mayday is going to be is telling the rescue service they need to look for you and where to look. Therefore unless you are at very low level having stabilised or resolved a Mayday giving your position will likely be heard by whoever you happen to be talking to even if you repeat the call a few times over the top of everything and everyone!
Personally I always know where to instantly find my GPS co-ordinates and I think it is good practice to make sure your eyes go straight to this information. It is all that really matters.
I also agree that an EPIRB is almost vital over the sea. Frankly once you have ditched you need some form of locator beacon as you will drift surprisingly quickly and more likely than not the aircraft will sink with varying degrees of rapidity.
However, to repeat myself, if you don't get down reasonably in one piece, all the Maydays in the world aren't going to be much help so concentrate on that part first - I know it is tempting to think otherwise!
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Fuji
You make your point well but this is exactly why an accurate position fix at a late stage just before the ditching is so vital ...... It gives you time to get the aircraft prepared to ditch and gets the most accurate fix broadcast to a large number of people, range and bearing from a known local VOR is most likely to be the easiest format to broadcast and the least likely to be misunderstood after all DVR 090/15 is a lot less writing than the LAT / LONG and a lot quicker to get into the FMC or GPS of any aircraft coming to your assistance.
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A and C
Yes, I agree and thank you.
The VOR is a good point but that assumes the aircraft has the equipment and the pilot the ability to give the information. Perhaps GPS co-ordinates are simpler for many, but I agree more lengthy and possible to be lost in transmission.
Yes, I agree and thank you.
The VOR is a good point but that assumes the aircraft has the equipment and the pilot the ability to give the information. Perhaps GPS co-ordinates are simpler for many, but I agree more lengthy and possible to be lost in transmission.
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Fuji
Most panel mounted GPS units will give you the radial & distance to the nearest VOR with just two button presses and R/D from any other point in the database with a little more work.
I am not too familiar with hand held GPS units but I am sure someone on tis forum knows how to get R/D from a VOR quickly on one.
The advantage of using a VOR R/D is that all the airliners who hear your VHF transmission from 50 ft will instantly be able to understand it and fix your position in the fix page of the FMS within seconds.
I am not too familiar with hand held GPS units but I am sure someone on tis forum knows how to get R/D from a VOR quickly on one.
The advantage of using a VOR R/D is that all the airliners who hear your VHF transmission from 50 ft will instantly be able to understand it and fix your position in the fix page of the FMS within seconds.
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Many upmarket GPSs or software programmes give a plain English readout of present position which does not require any button pushing.
Whether your average jet jockey would know whereabouts little Tolpuddle In The Marsh is, is another matter.
Whether your average jet jockey would know whereabouts little Tolpuddle In The Marsh is, is another matter.
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I guess I was catering for all - still not that many people have panel mount GPS, but I think most have some form of GPS be it an iPad, iPhone, some other hand held device or the full works. At most there is a single button push if the information is already on the map display (or you can change the settings so it is, which I think is a good idea).
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While all of the points made on this thread have merit, they have sort of turned a discussion on a ditching of an aircraft and the loss of an airman without a Mayday call into a teach-in on D&D, Maydays and the like which gives me two problems:
1 My thoughts are still with my friend and colleague Sascha, named recently as the pilot, who it seems we may have lost, though not all hope has gone yet while the police conduct their enquiries. But I fear we may never know what happened on his flight - he may have been in a spin, upside down, dis-oriented, without windscreen after a huge bird strike, fighting with a spluttering engine, a control issue or structural failure, or unconscious and not on autopilot, or something else quite nasty. But he may have just been unable to get round to the Communicate bit in Aviate-Navigate-Communicate.
2 Whilst the knowledge-sharing is very worthy (for which many thanks) it may never be found again if anyone wishes to understand emergency best practice, which is a shame. So I wonder if the PPrune forum manager might arrange for the thread to be tagged or re-instated under Mayday best practice or something similar, at least that would be a lasting legacy of our friend Sascha. I wonder if others agree ?
In my own case, flying that particular SR22 or others, I always had in my mind what I'd do in an emergency - in case I was incapacitated or upside down - and it was always about cleaning up the plane to glide at best or slow down to 133kts to pull the chute at worst, and I trained to do this in seconds. Radio calls were my last concern and position reports definitely so, but I always flew with one GNS430 set with the lat&long displayed in case I got the chance to relay it but expected that a Mayday on 121.5 would help D&D triangulate my position. Hence my earlier point about depressing the frequency change knob to immediately get 121.5 up. I've even had dreams about these steps, many times.
Even with all that the Cirrus glass cockpit gives you, having experienced 3 near misses in the UK from non-transponding aircraft (one a head-on with an RAF Grob in the Manchester Low Level route) I gave up flying some months ago which saddens me. Sascha's accident underscores how risky it has all become and his young wife must be devastated.
1 My thoughts are still with my friend and colleague Sascha, named recently as the pilot, who it seems we may have lost, though not all hope has gone yet while the police conduct their enquiries. But I fear we may never know what happened on his flight - he may have been in a spin, upside down, dis-oriented, without windscreen after a huge bird strike, fighting with a spluttering engine, a control issue or structural failure, or unconscious and not on autopilot, or something else quite nasty. But he may have just been unable to get round to the Communicate bit in Aviate-Navigate-Communicate.
2 Whilst the knowledge-sharing is very worthy (for which many thanks) it may never be found again if anyone wishes to understand emergency best practice, which is a shame. So I wonder if the PPrune forum manager might arrange for the thread to be tagged or re-instated under Mayday best practice or something similar, at least that would be a lasting legacy of our friend Sascha. I wonder if others agree ?
In my own case, flying that particular SR22 or others, I always had in my mind what I'd do in an emergency - in case I was incapacitated or upside down - and it was always about cleaning up the plane to glide at best or slow down to 133kts to pull the chute at worst, and I trained to do this in seconds. Radio calls were my last concern and position reports definitely so, but I always flew with one GNS430 set with the lat&long displayed in case I got the chance to relay it but expected that a Mayday on 121.5 would help D&D triangulate my position. Hence my earlier point about depressing the frequency change knob to immediately get 121.5 up. I've even had dreams about these steps, many times.
Even with all that the Cirrus glass cockpit gives you, having experienced 3 near misses in the UK from non-transponding aircraft (one a head-on with an RAF Grob in the Manchester Low Level route) I gave up flying some months ago which saddens me. Sascha's accident underscores how risky it has all become and his young wife must be devastated.
In the instance under discussion I imagine something that he couldn't handle overcame the hapless pilot.
In general you guys have commented on radio aids for this sort of water crossing. Where one possibly can I personally look out for and would try to ditch in front of a likely slow looking vessel.
[Same technique as keeping potential forced landing fields in sight when aviating over land.]
That way someone else may see & report it as well as try a rescue.
mike hallam.
In general you guys have commented on radio aids for this sort of water crossing. Where one possibly can I personally look out for and would try to ditch in front of a likely slow looking vessel.
[Same technique as keeping potential forced landing fields in sight when aviating over land.]
That way someone else may see & report it as well as try a rescue.
mike hallam.
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Golf-mike-mike......thanks for your sensible posts on this. To be honest I have now stopped posting as I have said before despite my 40 years in ATC and the last twenty working my day job at Scottish Info it appears you will always get guys out there that seem to know better despite what those with the inside knowledge have. However I would still expect any aircraft I am working to make an initial distress call on my Scottish info frequency....and why? Well as I am already working that traffic I already have most of the details before the Mayday is recieved i.e. Callsign, aircraft type and if flying over the water SOB as thats something I always as pilots for as they coast out......
My own actions on hearing the Pan or Mayday will to be acknowledge, then ask if able to Squawk 7700 ( this will then alert D&D if the contact visible on their radar) also at the same time that I am speaking to the aircraft in distress I will have called D&D and be passing all the details that I know at that stage.....then either D&D depending on the incident will give assistance in anyway needed, either through me or if necessary will offer the aircraft a discrete frequency to work on.
As I said before,the last 4 Mayday's I have worked,D&D through RCC had a helicopter airborne and on the way to their last position despite the aircraft managing to either divert safely to a airfield close by or indeed make a forced field landing.
My own actions on hearing the Pan or Mayday will to be acknowledge, then ask if able to Squawk 7700 ( this will then alert D&D if the contact visible on their radar) also at the same time that I am speaking to the aircraft in distress I will have called D&D and be passing all the details that I know at that stage.....then either D&D depending on the incident will give assistance in anyway needed, either through me or if necessary will offer the aircraft a discrete frequency to work on.
As I said before,the last 4 Mayday's I have worked,D&D through RCC had a helicopter airborne and on the way to their last position despite the aircraft managing to either divert safely to a airfield close by or indeed make a forced field landing.
Last edited by fisbangwollop; 25th Jul 2013 at 16:54.