Landing Question!
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Come on Pace, I don't believe for one second that if you flew circuits in a 172 this afternoon at a small airfield you would fly 3 degrees. With your experience it would just feel so wrong and you would fly the picture and what the aircraft was telling you to. Consequently you would be nowhere near bomber circuits and 3 degrees.
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Last edited by BabyBear; 1st May 2013 at 11:57.
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I would fly whatever was required of me and whatever I needed to do and that the aircraft would allow me to do
Also have a few tricks up my sleeves for what the aircraft does not appear to let me do 
Pace
I would fly whatever was required of me and whatever I needed to do and that the aircraft would allow me to do
Also have a few tricks up my sleeves for what the aircraft does not appear to let me do Pace
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So is that agreeement? Have we managed to convince you that, unless IFR ,4 mile finals at 3 degrees in a simple single is wrong in most cases?
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Last edited by BabyBear; 1st May 2013 at 12:07.
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Thank you for the correction Pace, I really cannot understand why so many on a GA forum get it wrong
You ask if people have noticed why an ILS is at 3 degrees, again, this is fine flying the ILS - but also why most airfields with one have a larger area of protected airspace! I can see your argument with power, but again, most here were not saying do not use a powered approach.
Turning final INSIDE the ATZ will put you about 400' at 1 mile from the threshold (3 degree will be 300' a mile from the TDZ so actually about the same height), landing just after the threshold will still require some power but as you are not going the same distance in (3 degrees following the ILS lands you almost 1,000' in) you will have a steeper slope. So please, listen to the reasoning for NOT following a 3 degree slope, otherwise you will find yourself held off in your Citation even more while a light aircraft drags in from miles out, or be sitting in the clubhouse of a small airfield watching someone go off the end off the runway after landing too far in!
You ask if people have noticed why an ILS is at 3 degrees, again, this is fine flying the ILS - but also why most airfields with one have a larger area of protected airspace! I can see your argument with power, but again, most here were not saying do not use a powered approach.
Turning final INSIDE the ATZ will put you about 400' at 1 mile from the threshold (3 degree will be 300' a mile from the TDZ so actually about the same height), landing just after the threshold will still require some power but as you are not going the same distance in (3 degrees following the ILS lands you almost 1,000' in) you will have a steeper slope. So please, listen to the reasoning for NOT following a 3 degree slope, otherwise you will find yourself held off in your Citation even more while a light aircraft drags in from miles out, or be sitting in the clubhouse of a small airfield watching someone go off the end off the runway after landing too far in!
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Out of interest what are the dimesions of circuits flown by those arguing the tighter the better?
How close to the threshold can one be when turning final and still having plenty time to put it down safely?
BB
How close to the threshold can one be when turning final and still having plenty time to put it down safely?
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Out of interest what are the dimesions of circuits flown by those arguing the tighter the better?
How close to the threshold can one be when turning final and still having plenty time to put it down safely?
How close to the threshold can one be when turning final and still having plenty time to put it down safely?
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Far nicer than a glide is abeam the numbers fly a curved approach with a continual descent right onto the numbers
Or even worse which many wont approve if the circuits sparce if aircraft descend to a low level circuit and then start a curved approach onto the numbers
Another method : ) fly very tight down wind ( empty circuit ) 500 feet runway just below your left shoulder! As you pass the numbers tear drop while dropping gear adding flap and curve back onto the runway !
Great for poor weather low cloud and vis
Glide approaches boring ; )))
Not recommended ; ) down the runway at 20 feet at numbers far end turn 25 degrees while pulling up fairly sharp as speed bleeds to flap speeds add flaps and start descending turn back onto final !
They all work but many tut tuts
But as I spout precision flying energy management and drag management
Pace
Far nicer than a glide is abeam the numbers fly a curved approach with a continual descent right onto the numbers
Or even worse which many wont approve if the circuits sparce if aircraft descend to a low level circuit and then start a curved approach onto the numbers
Another method : ) fly very tight down wind ( empty circuit ) 500 feet runway just below your left shoulder! As you pass the numbers tear drop while dropping gear adding flap and curve back onto the runway !
Great for poor weather low cloud and vis
Glide approaches boring ; )))
Not recommended ; ) down the runway at 20 feet at numbers far end turn 25 degrees while pulling up fairly sharp as speed bleeds to flap speeds add flaps and start descending turn back onto final !
They all work but many tut tuts
But as I spout precision flying energy management and drag management
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st May 2013 at 13:31.
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Baby Bear, how close to the threshold can one be when turning final and still have plenty of time to put it down safely?
Answer: abeam the threshold! - but then that's flying a glider tug....
I thought I was pretty slick flying my Supercub at Weston on the Green for a Junior Nationals Gliding Competition, but those RAF chaps in their Supermonks kept cutting in front of me@£$%^^! !
Most fun of all - was a Junior Nationals again, this time at Bidford, which is VERY SMALL - with double decker busses crossing the approach line on the county road, to say nothing of telephone wires - and on climbout, a hill, complete with trees, and a farmer who actually threatened to use his shotgun on low flying aircraft....
The tugs included the following: Pawnee 235, Two 180 hp Robins, a 180 hp Super Cub, my 150 Super Cub, and a TIGER MOTH! We took off in order of performance, and by the time we were downwind again for the next glider, it was a proper scrum. But the Tugmaster on the radio kept us in order, it wasn't nearly as hairy as dodging Chippies at Weston.
Foxmoth, me old son, (I'm probably old enuf to be your Granny), not every ex military instructor is as kind and sweet as I am sure you are! The few I have flown with in the States tended to be a bit rigid....
Answer: abeam the threshold! - but then that's flying a glider tug....
I thought I was pretty slick flying my Supercub at Weston on the Green for a Junior Nationals Gliding Competition, but those RAF chaps in their Supermonks kept cutting in front of me@£$%^^! !
Most fun of all - was a Junior Nationals again, this time at Bidford, which is VERY SMALL - with double decker busses crossing the approach line on the county road, to say nothing of telephone wires - and on climbout, a hill, complete with trees, and a farmer who actually threatened to use his shotgun on low flying aircraft....
The tugs included the following: Pawnee 235, Two 180 hp Robins, a 180 hp Super Cub, my 150 Super Cub, and a TIGER MOTH! We took off in order of performance, and by the time we were downwind again for the next glider, it was a proper scrum. But the Tugmaster on the radio kept us in order, it wasn't nearly as hairy as dodging Chippies at Weston.
Foxmoth, me old son, (I'm probably old enuf to be your Granny), not every ex military instructor is as kind and sweet as I am sure you are! The few I have flown with in the States tended to be a bit rigid....
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Foxmoth, me old son, (I'm probably old enuf to be your Granny)
As far as ex Military instructors go and
The few I have flown with in the States tended to be a bit rigid....
Last edited by foxmoth; 1st May 2013 at 14:12.
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Foxmoth, not sure discussing it is any more dangerous than leaving the thought of the tighter the better?
That aside, it wasn't so much how tight can it be done I was after, what I was actually interested in was what is a typical normal circuit for a SEP? IE how steep is a normal SEP approach, if not 3 degrees?
I have never considered the actual approach angle before, just relied on the picture.
Playing with some rough numbers:
1 mile out at 500ft would give approx. 4.7 degrees
.75 miles out at 500ft would give approx. 6.3 degrees
Comments?
BB
That aside, it wasn't so much how tight can it be done I was after, what I was actually interested in was what is a typical normal circuit for a SEP? IE how steep is a normal SEP approach, if not 3 degrees?
I have never considered the actual approach angle before, just relied on the picture.
Playing with some rough numbers:
1 mile out at 500ft would give approx. 4.7 degrees
.75 miles out at 500ft would give approx. 6.3 degrees
Comments?
BB
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such ignorance and arrogance. mr chuck, I was one year old while you were out teaching ernest gann how to write...maybe you were dudley?
some have said we have more room in the US to have a larger pattern...we have plenty of unique or special airports that do require special or modified techniques.
someone said that having a VASI bring you down 1000' down the runway that half of the airport would be used up. VASI's wouldn't be aimed that way.
Can you imagine flying your approach so that you can touchdown on the numbers...now imagine following a large or heavy plane (can you say wake turbulence?)
maybe sheepdip flys out of a short field with obstacles all around...maybe he can't adapt to something else?
no...a pilot should have many tools including steep power off approaches...but for a normal landing at a normal airport, the normal glidelsope is where you should be.
some have said we have more room in the US to have a larger pattern...we have plenty of unique or special airports that do require special or modified techniques.
someone said that having a VASI bring you down 1000' down the runway that half of the airport would be used up. VASI's wouldn't be aimed that way.
Can you imagine flying your approach so that you can touchdown on the numbers...now imagine following a large or heavy plane (can you say wake turbulence?)
maybe sheepdip flys out of a short field with obstacles all around...maybe he can't adapt to something else?
no...a pilot should have many tools including steep power off approaches...but for a normal landing at a normal airport, the normal glidelsope is where you should be.
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OK! This has been interesting reading. I am sorry for creating a bit of a heated debate.
I must admit initial intention was not to create a debate about whether we should stay on VASI/PAPI on approach or not. Even with limited experience, it is obvious that there are many runways without them and one can quickly gain the sight picture necessary to make a judgement regarding the reasonableness of approach. And, being a bit above is really not a problem, but probably not necessary. FAA flying handbook for example, would have student pilots stay on VASI/PAPI if there is one. They don't say it is for IFR purposes only. A reputable aviation school also has an instructional video for Cessna 172s where you are advised to stay on VASI/PAPI with power. So, at least in the US it is acceptable to be on them.
Where I fly, we have strong thermals depending on weather, so we could be on glidescope and hit a thermal and quickly be in "white over white" territory even if we did not chose to, so a glide is always an option. But, power in, forward slip would work, too.
We also have regional jets, and bit of traffic, so as long as tower is not asking something I can't do, I have to adjust power to do what they ask to maintain separation. So, I can't say I am too low can't extend downwind now, I'll do whatever is necessary, gain or lose altitude. I can't say I am too high. (Again, I understand that PIC has the duty to make sure what tower asks is doable.)
But here is the dilemma and textbooks don't help and apparently everyone has a different opinion.
Glide=higher speed on final ?
Power in=lower speed on final?
Is this the issue!
Regardless, when I am 20-15 feet above ground, if I level off from glide or power in approach, I can reduce my speed even further and capture the descent rate.
So, in theory I can end up at the same speed regardless of approach 20-15 feet above ground. Then, I can achieve a smooth full stall landing which would not bounce. I think the instructor and I are debating over that part. And he does not like a full stall landing. Is this a debate as well?
I must admit initial intention was not to create a debate about whether we should stay on VASI/PAPI on approach or not. Even with limited experience, it is obvious that there are many runways without them and one can quickly gain the sight picture necessary to make a judgement regarding the reasonableness of approach. And, being a bit above is really not a problem, but probably not necessary. FAA flying handbook for example, would have student pilots stay on VASI/PAPI if there is one. They don't say it is for IFR purposes only. A reputable aviation school also has an instructional video for Cessna 172s where you are advised to stay on VASI/PAPI with power. So, at least in the US it is acceptable to be on them.
Where I fly, we have strong thermals depending on weather, so we could be on glidescope and hit a thermal and quickly be in "white over white" territory even if we did not chose to, so a glide is always an option. But, power in, forward slip would work, too.
We also have regional jets, and bit of traffic, so as long as tower is not asking something I can't do, I have to adjust power to do what they ask to maintain separation. So, I can't say I am too low can't extend downwind now, I'll do whatever is necessary, gain or lose altitude. I can't say I am too high. (Again, I understand that PIC has the duty to make sure what tower asks is doable.)
But here is the dilemma and textbooks don't help and apparently everyone has a different opinion.
Glide=higher speed on final ?
Power in=lower speed on final?
Is this the issue!
Regardless, when I am 20-15 feet above ground, if I level off from glide or power in approach, I can reduce my speed even further and capture the descent rate.
So, in theory I can end up at the same speed regardless of approach 20-15 feet above ground. Then, I can achieve a smooth full stall landing which would not bounce. I think the instructor and I are debating over that part. And he does not like a full stall landing. Is this a debate as well?
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"power-in forward slip"
Forget the power-in part. Just meant, you can lose altitude in a hurry and then continue your initial powered descent. Not wanting to create another debate.
Forget the power-in part. Just meant, you can lose altitude in a hurry and then continue your initial powered descent. Not wanting to create another debate.
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someone said that having a VASI bring you down 1000' down the runway that half of the airport would be used up. VASI's wouldn't be aimed that way.
Can you imagine flying your approach so that you can touchdown on the numbers...now imagine following a large or heavy plane (can you say wake turbulence?)
Can you imagine flying your approach so that you can touchdown on the numbers...now imagine following a large or heavy plane (can you say wake turbulence?)
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Glide=higher speed on final ?
Power in=lower speed on final?
Power in=lower speed on final?
The difference??
In the glide you probably have a closed throttle and a steep approach which means you are trading altitude for speed which will depend on the amount of drag you have.
Say for a given descent profile throttle closed, flaps out you are indicating 70 mph!
You adjust that profile steeper and you airspeed will now maybe be 80 mph (too fast)
Adjust the profile shallower and the speed may bleed off to 60 mph.
Shallower profile no problem
tap into the engine energy and you are back to 70mph.Steeper and there is little you cannot do without adding further drag to steepen the approach without increasing speed.
High descent angle to the ground will also mean a more abrupt flare to stop the descent and make a smooth landing.
Powered approach
Now you are sharing the energy use from the airframe and engine you do not have a no go area like you do with the glide approach in going steeper and hence faster.
So you can adjust your profile in a more accurate way.
With the powered approach you have the extra bonus of prop wash (airflow) over the inner wing area, elevator and rudder all in all far better control over your touch down point and better control over the aircraft.
Chopping the power from the engine means you will settle onto the runway.
Smaller flare required to stop the descent from a flatter approach.
Downside in light low powered aircraft?
You are power sharing between the airframe and the engine so should the engine not give enough you can only trade altitude for airspeed which might not be possible or advisable. So it will take a better understanding and blending of the two energy sources as well as the danger of higher angles of attack and drag on a flatter approach especially with low powered high drag aircraft.
Anyone disagree feel free to pull the above apart
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st May 2013 at 15:48.
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Good post pace.
I would like to add another comment.
The more power you use during the flare and hold off the longer you will float down the runway, thus allowing for more destabilizing of the landing path if the air is unstable.....think change in x/wind as you float down the runway.
There is not an airplane made that can not be safely landed power off....period.
VASI/PAPI dependence makes for a one trick pony type of pilot with limited skills.
I would like to add another comment.
The more power you use during the flare and hold off the longer you will float down the runway, thus allowing for more destabilizing of the landing path if the air is unstable.....think change in x/wind as you float down the runway.
There is not an airplane made that can not be safely landed power off....period.
VASI/PAPI dependence makes for a one trick pony type of pilot with limited skills.
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I have been following this thread with some interest as I am a PPL student (can you still be a student at age 48?) with 22 hours and so nailing the landing is of great interest to me.
If I did the 3 degree glide slope in the pattern/circuit I'd almost certainly bust Class A airspace every time at EGTF Fairoaks in the London CTR. I am sure there are many other aerodromes like this in more populated areas and countries. Mind you, it would make my circuits a darned sight more leisurely, with the bonus that I would have time to ask the stewardess for a fill up of the old hip flask.
Cheers, Howard
If I did the 3 degree glide slope in the pattern/circuit I'd almost certainly bust Class A airspace every time at EGTF Fairoaks in the London CTR. I am sure there are many other aerodromes like this in more populated areas and countries. Mind you, it would make my circuits a darned sight more leisurely, with the bonus that I would have time to ask the stewardess for a fill up of the old hip flask.
Cheers, Howard