Landing Question!
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Hi SSD:
Yes you are correct many pilots rely on what they think they are using as reference above the landing surface and when changes in direction, height or side ways movement is felt they can become used to those sensations and believe it is " feel " that is the means of judging hoe close or how far the airplane is from the runway when the sensation of movement is felt.
But lets move the airplane back up to say a thousand feet above the ground and experience the same sensation of movement....when the airplane moves a few feet closer to the ground or a few feet higher from the ground.
The sensation of sink or rise will still be exactly the same as if you were a few feet above the runway......but how accurate is the feeling of sink or rise?
Conversely when we bring sight back into the equation it will always be sight that is the determining factor how how much change in height you are experiencing.
These conversations always have been important in my career as a pilot because accuracy in judging height when close to the surface has been very important in the types of flying I did and also taught.
To reinforce where I form these opinions and thoughts from the following is where and how I learned this.
Aerial application fixed and rotary wing eight years.
Fire bombing Captain fifteen years.
Airdisplay pilot at airshows eight years.
The foregoing examples of my flying are only to explain how and where I came by opinions on judging height.....I am retired and really do not need to advertise my skills.
Yes you are correct many pilots rely on what they think they are using as reference above the landing surface and when changes in direction, height or side ways movement is felt they can become used to those sensations and believe it is " feel " that is the means of judging hoe close or how far the airplane is from the runway when the sensation of movement is felt.
But lets move the airplane back up to say a thousand feet above the ground and experience the same sensation of movement....when the airplane moves a few feet closer to the ground or a few feet higher from the ground.
The sensation of sink or rise will still be exactly the same as if you were a few feet above the runway......but how accurate is the feeling of sink or rise?
Conversely when we bring sight back into the equation it will always be sight that is the determining factor how how much change in height you are experiencing.
These conversations always have been important in my career as a pilot because accuracy in judging height when close to the surface has been very important in the types of flying I did and also taught.
To reinforce where I form these opinions and thoughts from the following is where and how I learned this.
Aerial application fixed and rotary wing eight years.
Fire bombing Captain fifteen years.
Airdisplay pilot at airshows eight years.
The foregoing examples of my flying are only to explain how and where I came by opinions on judging height.....I am retired and really do not need to advertise my skills.
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You're right, it is a combination of both......with no conscious transition between the two. That makes it hard to explain and teach,
(1) I explain exactly what we are going to do before each lesson and the first part of the lesson I fly the airplane and have the student observe while I verbalize exactly what I am seeing during the latter part of the aproach, flare , hold off and touch down.
(2) I then have the student fly the approach and landing and verbalize the exact height above the surface from 100 feet to the flare....at flare height I say flare....then during the hold off period I verbalize the exact height to touch down.
(3) To ensure the student really is getting the picture I video these lessons and after the flight put the video on a TV and play it back...I give the student a laser pen and at various stages of the approach and landing I freeze the picture and ask them to put the laser dot where they were looking and ask them what they were seeing.
It has been the best method of training that I ever found and works like a charm.
In fact they learn so fast that to make more money I then take them back up and we do it all over again..... inverted.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 2nd May 2013 at 22:18.
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E
Chuck,
I think you hit the nail on the head when things go exactly as they should, it is when someone holds off a tad too high, then you get the sinking feeling described that can be killed with a touch of power, the problem comes when someone cannot recognise that they are higher than they think, try this and end up with a heavy landing - this is where they should be going around instead of trying to salvage it, always the safest way - unless of course, like Mary, you are in a glider!!
I think you hit the nail on the head when things go exactly as they should, it is when someone holds off a tad too high, then you get the sinking feeling described that can be killed with a touch of power, the problem comes when someone cannot recognise that they are higher than they think, try this and end up with a heavy landing - this is where they should be going around instead of trying to salvage it, always the safest way - unless of course, like Mary, you are in a glider!!
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Exactly foxmoth.
Success when landing is best achieved by knowing exactly what is happening.
When they know where they are and what is happening they can use their residual skills to correct any deviation from a stabilized approach and landing.
I miss sevenstrokeroll already.
I thought you guys would like to know what I have here at home in my retirement to sooth me in my later days.
Most people get a rocking chair.
I have a chair that gives me plus 8 g's and negative 4 g's to sooth me in my retirement.
It even has a 5 point harness.
I can't take plus 12 g's and minus 6 g's anymore.
Success when landing is best achieved by knowing exactly what is happening.
When they know where they are and what is happening they can use their residual skills to correct any deviation from a stabilized approach and landing.
I miss sevenstrokeroll already.
I thought you guys would like to know what I have here at home in my retirement to sooth me in my later days.
Most people get a rocking chair.
I have a chair that gives me plus 8 g's and negative 4 g's to sooth me in my retirement.
It even has a 5 point harness.
I can't take plus 12 g's and minus 6 g's anymore.
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Rocking chair with a 5 point harness....now that's a good one, Chuck! do you wear a parachute as well? Our K21 glider is the only one in the fleet with 5 point harness, (I have trouble finding the crotch strap...) and it is the one we use for aerobatics.
Chuck, you certainly have had an exciting career.....but Gentlemen of this thread, for real pucker time, have a look at that 10 minute video on the Glider splashdown thread....flying the cliffs in south devon. Now you've really got to have eyes on stalks to do that, and be pretty sharp with the peripheral vision as well.....it isn't till half way through the video that you realise there are TWO GLIDERS involved in that madness! and they get back to the Devon club safely, one presumes, to be able to download the wingtip and tail cameras!
I am too chicken to fly that close to the scenery...
By the bye, after all the excitement on this thread, I couldn't find the item where an instructor suggests that CLOSING YOUR EYES during the flare proves that it is vision, not seat of pants feeling, that senses the necessary situational awareness.....has to be a pretty brave instructor to ask the student to close his eyes during the flare......
Chuck, you certainly have had an exciting career.....but Gentlemen of this thread, for real pucker time, have a look at that 10 minute video on the Glider splashdown thread....flying the cliffs in south devon. Now you've really got to have eyes on stalks to do that, and be pretty sharp with the peripheral vision as well.....it isn't till half way through the video that you realise there are TWO GLIDERS involved in that madness! and they get back to the Devon club safely, one presumes, to be able to download the wingtip and tail cameras!
I am too chicken to fly that close to the scenery...
By the bye, after all the excitement on this thread, I couldn't find the item where an instructor suggests that CLOSING YOUR EYES during the flare proves that it is vision, not seat of pants feeling, that senses the necessary situational awareness.....has to be a pretty brave instructor to ask the student to close his eyes during the flare......
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Seeing some of the super egos here who have reinvented how to land I would suggest to anyone trying to learn from this thread to just read the operating manual, learn how to do a stabilized approach on speed and make a consistent flare. The vasi and gs are there to help you so use them. I have flown 76 different types of aircraft and all of them, SE, ME and jets all land about the same so keep it simple.
If you are shooting for the airlines you need to land this way or you will get busted by acars below 1,000 ft if you are not stabilized on speed on glide path so why not just learn this way?
If you are shooting for the airlines you need to land this way or you will get busted by acars below 1,000 ft if you are not stabilized on speed on glide path so why not just learn this way?
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Hi Bubber, quote... so why not just learn this way?
Unfortunately most of us live in the real world, our fathers do not own A380s for us to fly. There is no need to fly a twelve mile final, when all you own is a spam-can or a glider that have approach speeds of 70 and 60 knots respectively.
Also most of us land into wind which further reduces our ground speed by maybe another 20 knots... (to 50 and 40 knots resp.). So there is no need for a final of more than 800 yards for us.
The usual turn to final is at 600ft... To intercept the Papis from below, as you are supposed to, that would put us 2-3 miles out, and at 40knots, that would take an eternity, and we would soon become bored.
Unfortunately most of us live in the real world, our fathers do not own A380s for us to fly. There is no need to fly a twelve mile final, when all you own is a spam-can or a glider that have approach speeds of 70 and 60 knots respectively.
Also most of us land into wind which further reduces our ground speed by maybe another 20 knots... (to 50 and 40 knots resp.). So there is no need for a final of more than 800 yards for us.
The usual turn to final is at 600ft... To intercept the Papis from below, as you are supposed to, that would put us 2-3 miles out, and at 40knots, that would take an eternity, and we would soon become bored.
A good approach equals a good landing. The secret to a good approach is a constant pitch attitude all the way down final and held right to the flare. Far too many new pilots chase the airspeed indicator instead of flying the pitch attitude by looking out the window, that is why I cover the ASI when teaching the landing.
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Actually soloing in an Aeronca Champ, getting my ME in a Beach 18 and numerous biplanes, gliders, crop dusting, aerobatics and jet flying in most Boeings have done short approaches in all. SFO from the north was the most fun, downwind at 11,000 ft being cleared for the 28R approach and turn inside the bridge. No 12 mile finals just fly the f***king plane like an aeronca champ. It ain't that hard.
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Two questions bubbers44.
First question:
When you were crop dusting how long was your final approach to the field you were working?
Second question:
When you were flaring for the run down the field, where did you look to judge when to flare, and once level in the run down the field where were you looking to maintain your height above the ground?
First question:
When you were crop dusting how long was your final approach to the field you were working?
Second question:
When you were flaring for the run down the field, where did you look to judge when to flare, and once level in the run down the field where were you looking to maintain your height above the ground?
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Seeing some of the super egos here who have reinvented how to land I would suggest to anyone trying to learn from this thread to just read the operating manual, learn how to do a stabilized approach on speed and make a consistent flare. The vasi and gs are there to help you so use them. I have flown 76 different types of aircraft and all of them, SE, ME and jets all land about the same so keep it simple.
If you are shooting for the airlines you need to land this way or you will get busted by acars below 1,000 ft if you are not stabilized on speed on glide path so why not just learn this way?
I am a low hours PPL with absolutely no interest in an airline job. I am just starting on my IR.
I fly in and out of fields with different characteristics (grass / paved, VASI / PAPI / no visual aids, published versus no approaches, obstacles near the threshold versus "clear" approaches etc).
Sometimes, I fly quite steep approaches with little or no power. Sometimes I fly flatter approaches with a bit of power. Sometimes I fly quite flat approaches with quite a bit of power (usually because I have messed something up along the way).
As part of my learning process, I think that it is important to understand the relationship between pitch and power relative to airspeed and altitude without regard to a VASI / PAPI or a glidescope.
If I structured every approach around nailing a PAPI or always loading and flying an ILS approach even in hard clear VMC, I think that I would be ignoring a large part of learning how to fly the plane by "painting by numbers" and would get into trouble at fields without visual aids or published approaches.
If I every get to the stage when I am flying a Kestrel (if it ever comes into existence) under IFR along airways 100% of the time, I could understand your argument. I assume that everything that I have done before that stage will help me manage the aircraft in a more structured environment.
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Aphrican, don't worry, not everyone wants to be a sh*t hot trucky like Bubbers. 
Do what you do. Not what a faceless trucky tells you to do. Did you know he's been to one airfield over 600 times? 'mazin'.
Do what you do. Not what a faceless trucky tells you to do. Did you know he's been to one airfield over 600 times? 'mazin'.
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Aphrican, don't worry, not everyone wants to be a sh*t hot trucky like Bubbers.
Do what you do. Not what a faceless trucky tells you to do. Did you know he's been to one airfield over 600 times? 'mazin'.
Do what you do. Not what a faceless trucky tells you to do. Did you know he's been to one airfield over 600 times? 'mazin'.
I only have about 250 landings in total with about 200 of them at my "home" field.
I feel that the last 5 to 10 feet before touchdown are the worst part of any flight that I undertake.
Getting better at that part of the flight would make the 45 minutes to 3 hours that precede the final part of the flight massively more enjoyable.
I can stabilise a variety of approaches. I still need to get a lot better in the roundout and flare.
There has been some good advice in this thread about how to accomplish this.
I really need to get over my base to final stall / spin fear and manage my pitch and airspeed to nail Vref within +5/-0 kts as soon as my base to final turn is complete while also have almost no risk of a base to final stall / spin more through pitch than airspeed.
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I really need to get over my base to final stall / spin fear and manage my pitch and airspeed to nail Vref within +5/-0 kts as soon as my base to final turn is complete while also have almost no risk of a base to final stall / spin more through pitch than airspeed.
Next time you get a chance have a good instructor take you up to a safe altitude and demonstrate turns to final from very safe to the point that the airplane stalls and spins.
You will find that before the airplane gets into a stall spin configuration there are many warning signs.
Work on that fear and once you get past that we can work on your landings.
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Your phobia is irrational.
Next time you get a chance have a good instructor take you up to a safe altitude and demonstrate turns to final from very safe to the point that the airplane stalls and spins.
You will find that before the airplane gets into a stall spin configuration there are many warning signs.
Work on that fear and once you get past that we can work on your landings.
We might get a chance to work on the problem in late July / early August ....
My phobia is rational given the statistics. I need to gain comfort that I am going to be on the right side of the statistics.
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Crop dusting turns to field were within 1500 ft. Sometimes under power lines. Mostly flying under power lines was at the end of a run. While TGU was my most fun and challenging airport the other international airports were fun too. MIA got pretty boring being based there.
Most airports don't require special procedures so don't dwell on it. Just fly a stabilized approach every time and you will be fine if you do what your aircraft manual says.
Occasionally you will get a bad flight instructor so just buy a good book and make sure you are being taught right.
For the Airbus daddy thing, I did it on my own. No help from Dad. We lived on a farm and had no money. I did it myself.
Most airports don't require special procedures so don't dwell on it. Just fly a stabilized approach every time and you will be fine if you do what your aircraft manual says.
Occasionally you will get a bad flight instructor so just buy a good book and make sure you are being taught right.
For the Airbus daddy thing, I did it on my own. No help from Dad. We lived on a farm and had no money. I did it myself.
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Are you in Victoria, Nanaimo, Campbell River or Courtney Comox?
We might get a chance to work on the problem in late July / early August ....
My phobia is rational given the statistics. I need to gain comfort that I am going to be on the right side of the statistics.
Therefore if you maintain a safe angle of attack / airspeed and keep the ball in the center you can not stall / spin.
In the 172 and Citabria with and without flaps, 1 mile away from the runway and turning base at 45 degrees give all the land marks needed for a 1000' circuit. For a lower circuit, say 800', bring it in closer. In both cases plan to turn final at 500' approx 1 mile out (10:1 glide ratio).
In cold weather, 0C or below, I run more revs to keep the engine warm so it's there if I want it back.
Flying at night to a runway without VASI, PAPI or ILS, that circuit will keep you above the trees.
One of my recent power instructors had the habit of declaring engine failure after carb heat was pulled on downwind. In a 172, I would tighten the circuit a bit and drop 40 flaps when I was well on top of the numbers. If you have the airspeed (which a steep approach tends to give you) there's no problem rounding out.
In gliders a half mile away from the runway or farmer's field is more comfortable on downwind -- or you may be landing in a different field that you have not inspected
Oh yes, it's a lot more easy to identify your impact point on a steeper approach. Identifying and controlling just where you will contact terra firma is the first objective after turning final (always of course maintaining approach speed and understanding that roundout and hold off will put touchdown past that point).
As for when to round out, do that when runway texture or individual blades of grass become distinguishable. At the same time put your eyes on the opposite end of the runway.
In cold weather, 0C or below, I run more revs to keep the engine warm so it's there if I want it back.
Flying at night to a runway without VASI, PAPI or ILS, that circuit will keep you above the trees.
One of my recent power instructors had the habit of declaring engine failure after carb heat was pulled on downwind. In a 172, I would tighten the circuit a bit and drop 40 flaps when I was well on top of the numbers. If you have the airspeed (which a steep approach tends to give you) there's no problem rounding out.
In gliders a half mile away from the runway or farmer's field is more comfortable on downwind -- or you may be landing in a different field that you have not inspected
Oh yes, it's a lot more easy to identify your impact point on a steeper approach. Identifying and controlling just where you will contact terra firma is the first objective after turning final (always of course maintaining approach speed and understanding that roundout and hold off will put touchdown past that point).
As for when to round out, do that when runway texture or individual blades of grass become distinguishable. At the same time put your eyes on the opposite end of the runway.