Landing Question!
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sevenstrokeroll
I think most people here are talking about a powered approach, but just tighter and steeper than following the PAPI/VASI would allow.
By teaching a VFR student this way, they learn to appreciate the perspective of the approach, and what the aircraft is capable of, and then apply that wherever they go.
By teaching so early on to rely on PAPI/VASI, which will lead you to land deeper, when that same student then goes to a shorter runway with no PAPI/VASI they run off the end, I have seen this happen 6 times now.
3 degree approaches and ILS have their place, but it is certainly not in ab initio training, which is what we're talking about here. By the time anyone gets onto IFR and shiny jets they have plenty of hours under their belt and should be able to tell for themselves the difference.
I think you are fundamentally wrong when you say that every approach should follow VASI/PAPI.
I think most people here are talking about a powered approach, but just tighter and steeper than following the PAPI/VASI would allow.
By teaching a VFR student this way, they learn to appreciate the perspective of the approach, and what the aircraft is capable of, and then apply that wherever they go.
By teaching so early on to rely on PAPI/VASI, which will lead you to land deeper, when that same student then goes to a shorter runway with no PAPI/VASI they run off the end, I have seen this happen 6 times now.
3 degree approaches and ILS have their place, but it is certainly not in ab initio training, which is what we're talking about here. By the time anyone gets onto IFR and shiny jets they have plenty of hours under their belt and should be able to tell for themselves the difference.
I think you are fundamentally wrong when you say that every approach should follow VASI/PAPI.
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sevenstroke roll has clearly demonstrated a paucity of even basic aviation knowledge and made statements that no pilot ever would. He isn't a pilot, he's a troll. Best stop feeding him.
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Dear Shaggy Sheep
so you call me a troll...I say your statements on aviation show a shallow mind and limited experience. If you were a surgeon, you would use a bone saw for a hang nail. If you were a carpenter you would use a rasp instead of fine sandpaper.
Your views as a pilot are so amazingly misguided I would call the FAA and have them give you a checkride after watching your landings...of course you aren' t in FAA land are you? You seem to be in the land of overlapping airports and lack of progress since the airspeed corp went out of business.
--
RTN.
If you have seen your students land long at a non vasi airport it is a lack of fundamentals in teaching the art of flying. No one says VASI is a replacement for picking a spot on the runway and touchingdown upon it. I've seen plenty of airports with less than 2500 feet of runway equipped with VASI or AVASI or PAPI or PLASI. I've seen people stay on the GS just fine and touchdown in the first third of the runway.
YOU and your folks seem to have lost the idea of controlling speed precisely and energy management. I've seen people fly like you are describing...and it is a poor excuse for actively controlling flight path at proper speed using stick rudder and throttle. (flaps too).
To those who have followed this thread with interest I offer this.
WHY does VASI exist at airport without instrument approaches and with runways as short or shorter than 2500' ?
How would these pseudo experts from across the pond land at an airport at night? How would they deal with descending into a ''black hole''?
I've said over and over that a pilot should be able to do many types of landings and related approaches. There are some mountainous airports that require unique approaches, some that even indicate that VASI should not be used until very close to the runway. But these pseudo experts will not have it. They can't even see that at an uncontrolled airport someone way above VASI might not be seen by another plane on VASI behind it...and it might lead to a collision.
And if you ever plan to fly instruments, you have been getting the sight picture for breakout for the visual portion of the landing.
Yes, ladies and gentlement of the thread, the pseudo experts, those that fancy themselves flying hawker hurricanes instead of C172's are just asking for problems.
So, dear original poster...have many tools in your aviation pocket and have the wisdom to use them properly.
AS an instructor, many years ago someone wanted a checkout in a Piper Turbo Lance (yes boys and girls). They had learned to fly using the pseudo experts method. It was time for the first landing after flying the pattern (a circuit is something electrical!).
So I gave a bit of advice, a bit of apower setting to start with and let the fun happen.
The pilot was getting low (on the vasi...hahahah)and Imentioned it to him. He said (and I'm not kidding)...the power setting you gave me didn't work.
I was stunned and suggested he had better add power. After we landed (or arrived) I mentioned that he could have varied the size of the pattern(turn base earlier), added power, delayed flap extension, or been alert to changing winds.
He insisted that only one power setting should be set and not varried. Again I said, well, then you could turn base sooner, or later to compensate.
HE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND that as a pilot, you can use many techniques to make things work out...Power /throttle would have been the easiest as we were flying in a busy traffic pattern.
I encourage you to learn many ways to controlyour plane...but when power is available, your control will be more exact than anything else.
I wish you good luck original poster.
And, remember the airplane was invented on our side of the pond!
Your views as a pilot are so amazingly misguided I would call the FAA and have them give you a checkride after watching your landings...of course you aren' t in FAA land are you? You seem to be in the land of overlapping airports and lack of progress since the airspeed corp went out of business.
--
RTN.
If you have seen your students land long at a non vasi airport it is a lack of fundamentals in teaching the art of flying. No one says VASI is a replacement for picking a spot on the runway and touchingdown upon it. I've seen plenty of airports with less than 2500 feet of runway equipped with VASI or AVASI or PAPI or PLASI. I've seen people stay on the GS just fine and touchdown in the first third of the runway.
YOU and your folks seem to have lost the idea of controlling speed precisely and energy management. I've seen people fly like you are describing...and it is a poor excuse for actively controlling flight path at proper speed using stick rudder and throttle. (flaps too).
To those who have followed this thread with interest I offer this.
WHY does VASI exist at airport without instrument approaches and with runways as short or shorter than 2500' ?
How would these pseudo experts from across the pond land at an airport at night? How would they deal with descending into a ''black hole''?
I've said over and over that a pilot should be able to do many types of landings and related approaches. There are some mountainous airports that require unique approaches, some that even indicate that VASI should not be used until very close to the runway. But these pseudo experts will not have it. They can't even see that at an uncontrolled airport someone way above VASI might not be seen by another plane on VASI behind it...and it might lead to a collision.
And if you ever plan to fly instruments, you have been getting the sight picture for breakout for the visual portion of the landing.
Yes, ladies and gentlement of the thread, the pseudo experts, those that fancy themselves flying hawker hurricanes instead of C172's are just asking for problems.
So, dear original poster...have many tools in your aviation pocket and have the wisdom to use them properly.
AS an instructor, many years ago someone wanted a checkout in a Piper Turbo Lance (yes boys and girls). They had learned to fly using the pseudo experts method. It was time for the first landing after flying the pattern (a circuit is something electrical!).
So I gave a bit of advice, a bit of apower setting to start with and let the fun happen.
The pilot was getting low (on the vasi...hahahah)and Imentioned it to him. He said (and I'm not kidding)...the power setting you gave me didn't work.
I was stunned and suggested he had better add power. After we landed (or arrived) I mentioned that he could have varied the size of the pattern(turn base earlier), added power, delayed flap extension, or been alert to changing winds.
He insisted that only one power setting should be set and not varried. Again I said, well, then you could turn base sooner, or later to compensate.
HE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND that as a pilot, you can use many techniques to make things work out...Power /throttle would have been the easiest as we were flying in a busy traffic pattern.
I encourage you to learn many ways to controlyour plane...but when power is available, your control will be more exact than anything else.
I wish you good luck original poster.
And, remember the airplane was invented on our side of the pond!
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YOU and your folks seem to have lost the idea of controlling speed precisely and energy management. I've seen people fly like you are describing...and it is a poor excuse for actively controlling flight path at proper speed using stick rudder and throttle. (flaps too).
To those who have followed this thread with interest I offer this.
WHY does VASI exist at airport without instrument approaches and with runways as short or shorter than 2500' ?
How would these pseudo experts from across the pond land at an airport at night? How would they deal with descending into a ''black hole''?
To those who have followed this thread with interest I offer this.
WHY does VASI exist at airport without instrument approaches and with runways as short or shorter than 2500' ?
How would these pseudo experts from across the pond land at an airport at night? How would they deal with descending into a ''black hole''?
Why do they have VASIs at shorter airfields, well presumably for those pilots who cannot manage without!
How do we land at an airport at night - well proper training, certainly when I was taught night flying many airfields here did not have VASIs or ILS, and if these were available, part of the training was to have these turned off - this then of course begs the question - how do you manage YOUR side of the pond if you ever need to land at night WITHOUT these aids???
As far as your pilot who was taught to set a power and not adjust it, that is not a method I have EVER heard of and certainly not anything any instructor I know would teach, VASIs or no VASIs, and I am amazed he managed to get a licence!
Last edited by foxmoth; 1st May 2013 at 19:37.
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How would these pseudo experts from across the pond land at an airport at night? How would they deal with descending into a ''black hole''?
SSR, you've proved time and agin your approach to aviation is inflexible and now you're showing that you have no meaningful experience, if any.
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RTN.
If you have seen your students land long at a non vasi airport it is a lack of fundamentals in teaching the art of flying.
If you have seen your students land long at a non vasi airport it is a lack of fundamentals in teaching the art of flying.
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Thats a very valid point you make RTN.
The Instructors at EGNX work the Students hard to get down on the numbers and when I learnt their, we went up the road to Hucknall to bash the circuit to get the real world picture. PAPI approaches at EGNX were and still are not allowed at basic PPL level and rightly so.
No PAPIs at Barton nor Netherthorpe etc etc ad nauseum.........
The Instructors at EGNX work the Students hard to get down on the numbers and when I learnt their, we went up the road to Hucknall to bash the circuit to get the real world picture. PAPI approaches at EGNX were and still are not allowed at basic PPL level and rightly so.
No PAPIs at Barton nor Netherthorpe etc etc ad nauseum.........
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yes RTN...it is better to learn at a 2500'strip than a giant airport...and the students who went off the end had only been guessing at landings...but it is not the fault of the AVASI, VASI or otherwise...it is a fundamental problem and one must learn to go to a short field or a big field and the problems with each. someone who learns at a narrow runway might just flare too high and fall from the sky at a wide runway airport.
as to the TOSH dispensers...the only thing I say to you is what Jack Palance said in city slickers...I crap bigger than you.
so much sadness and lack of knowledge, and all from the east side of the pond...
as to the TOSH dispensers...the only thing I say to you is what Jack Palance said in city slickers...I crap bigger than you.
so much sadness and lack of knowledge, and all from the east side of the pond...
I crap bigger than you
BTW, has anyone noticed SSR's name / title? Richard Head? I mean, Dick? Seriously? Has to be a troll!
Dick Head by name, Dick Head by nature.FBW
Last edited by Fly-by-Wife; 1st May 2013 at 20:23.
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Well to keep him happy, perhaps he should take a trip to Gloucestershire where they have PAPIs set for 5.25 degrees for the little people as well as 3.5 degrees for big people...
My instructor thought I was looking at the PAPI when doing some circuits - ATC were very obliging in immediately turning them off for him
Also worth noting that PAPIs are normally setup to be in line for for large aircraft to reach the touchdown point, with their pilots high above the ground - not SEP training aircraft...
My instructor thought I was looking at the PAPI when doing some circuits - ATC were very obliging in immediately turning them off for him
Also worth noting that PAPIs are normally setup to be in line for for large aircraft to reach the touchdown point, with their pilots high above the ground - not SEP training aircraft...
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I am a very low hours pilot and mostly fly in and out of an airport in a C172 that has an 8,500 x 150 runway with PAPI at one end and VASI at the other end.
The approach that "feels" best to me at the PAPI end after chopping power and taking the first chunk of flaps abeam the threshold on the downwind leg is 4 whites at the end of the base to final turn with the second notch of flaps taken on base, 2 whites and 2 reds at about 500ft AGL when I am stabilised on final and one "pink" and three reds when I cross the threshold at the end on the PAPI runway with full flaps or only two notches depending on winds.
The PAPI indications are incidental to how I see the runway from midfield on the downwind leg onwards and I really only use them to confirm that my sight picture makes sense and is somewhat consistent.
The other end has a VASI which I struggle to see and use. This doesn't really matter as I rely on the sight picture that I have developed on the reciprocal runway.
Like many others, I struggle when I go to less familiar fields and am asked to join on base rather than on the 45 downwind or overhead joining downwind which gives me more time to set myself up.
I do think that developing a sight picture (and knowing the intuitive adjustments to make for short versus long, wide versus narrow and uphill versus downhill runways) is more important than following VASI / PAPI glidescopes.
I am early in the process of getting my FAA IR. I know that I have to follow precision and non-precision approach procedures when available (ignoring WAAS which seems to be uniquely North American luxury).
I don't yet know enough to understand when I should follow the PAPI / VASI after breaking out below the clouds and when I should use my VMC procedures. If the ceiling is 201 ft, the answer is pretty obvious. If the ceiling is 3,000 ft, the answer is also pretty obvious.
I don't have enough skill or experience to know where the dividing line is between 201 and 3,000 ft. For more skilled pilots, I know that the dividing line will be much tighter.
The approach that "feels" best to me at the PAPI end after chopping power and taking the first chunk of flaps abeam the threshold on the downwind leg is 4 whites at the end of the base to final turn with the second notch of flaps taken on base, 2 whites and 2 reds at about 500ft AGL when I am stabilised on final and one "pink" and three reds when I cross the threshold at the end on the PAPI runway with full flaps or only two notches depending on winds.
The PAPI indications are incidental to how I see the runway from midfield on the downwind leg onwards and I really only use them to confirm that my sight picture makes sense and is somewhat consistent.
The other end has a VASI which I struggle to see and use. This doesn't really matter as I rely on the sight picture that I have developed on the reciprocal runway.
Like many others, I struggle when I go to less familiar fields and am asked to join on base rather than on the 45 downwind or overhead joining downwind which gives me more time to set myself up.
I do think that developing a sight picture (and knowing the intuitive adjustments to make for short versus long, wide versus narrow and uphill versus downhill runways) is more important than following VASI / PAPI glidescopes.
I am early in the process of getting my FAA IR. I know that I have to follow precision and non-precision approach procedures when available (ignoring WAAS which seems to be uniquely North American luxury).
I don't yet know enough to understand when I should follow the PAPI / VASI after breaking out below the clouds and when I should use my VMC procedures. If the ceiling is 201 ft, the answer is pretty obvious. If the ceiling is 3,000 ft, the answer is also pretty obvious.
I don't have enough skill or experience to know where the dividing line is between 201 and 3,000 ft. For more skilled pilots, I know that the dividing line will be much tighter.
Last edited by Aphrican; 1st May 2013 at 21:09.
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I find it sad that a forum meant for private pilots gets corrupted and totally ruined by a troll.
There used to be a poster that called himself guppy something or the other and in the end I believe Pprune finally banned him for exactly the type of downgrading the forum this sevenstrokeroll is doing.
It was because of this kind of mindless crap I quit posting here for so long.
Is there really an answer?
Yes there is, why not have a forum for private pilots to ask questions and to exchange ideas where Pprune will check out the background of genuine pilots who want to contribute useful advice and when there is a problem cull the answers from posters who are trolls.
There used to be a poster that called himself guppy something or the other and in the end I believe Pprune finally banned him for exactly the type of downgrading the forum this sevenstrokeroll is doing.
It was because of this kind of mindless crap I quit posting here for so long.
Is there really an answer?
Yes there is, why not have a forum for private pilots to ask questions and to exchange ideas where Pprune will check out the background of genuine pilots who want to contribute useful advice and when there is a problem cull the answers from posters who are trolls.
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Interesting to look at Captain Sevenstrokeroll's credentials; he claims to be flying a 737 for a major airline after coming up the hard way; and enjoys drumming.
He mentions as well as a lot of letters that qualify him to be an instructor. Fort Sheridan, Ill. is located in what Americans term Flyover Country, you don't really want to live there. Sadly, being an airline pilot in the USA is no longer a glamourous profession. Watching them mingling with the public at Dulles only fills me with pity, they look tired, uninspired, and very ordinary.
It is perfectly true that the first powered flight was done by the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk; in December, at sea level. But when they took the aircraft back to Flyover Country, midsummer, it didn't work so well, and took a couple of years of quiet development and practice to be reliable enough to prove it wasn't a fluke.
Of course the true pioneers of aviation were the French.....
He mentions as well as a lot of letters that qualify him to be an instructor. Fort Sheridan, Ill. is located in what Americans term Flyover Country, you don't really want to live there. Sadly, being an airline pilot in the USA is no longer a glamourous profession. Watching them mingling with the public at Dulles only fills me with pity, they look tired, uninspired, and very ordinary.
It is perfectly true that the first powered flight was done by the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk; in December, at sea level. But when they took the aircraft back to Flyover Country, midsummer, it didn't work so well, and took a couple of years of quiet development and practice to be reliable enough to prove it wasn't a fluke.
Of course the true pioneers of aviation were the French.....
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He couldn't have been instructing long because after he flew Metroliners, then DC9s and now 737s... At some stage he became a captain...
I'm sure thats an inspirational story, to many, although the self improver route is now fairly closed to most people. Of course - he is using his experience to help others now on forums. What is Mr Richard Head's experience now?
Last edited by riverrock83; 1st May 2013 at 21:20.
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Chuck,
I agree with your sentiments and appreciate your contributions, as I am sure the vast majority here do also.
You are right - SNS3Guppy, I believe, was the poster in question. For all I know, SSR could be another incarnation of the same beast.
A very similar proposal has often been raised regarding the professional pilots for whom this site was, originally, founded. Unfortunately, it would prove every bit as difficult to implement and maintain here as for the professionals (and it's never been implemented).
We try - it's not always immediately obvious who they are, as the "Walter Mittys" can be very convincing for a long time - SNS3Guppy was credible for years.
Please remember that PPRuNe is 100% voluntary - both in terms of the moderation and the membership - and having genuine pilots continuing to contribute voluntarily has much more of an impact on keeping the signal-to-noise ratio high than the efforts of a handful of volunteer moderators.
SD
I agree with your sentiments and appreciate your contributions, as I am sure the vast majority here do also.
You are right - SNS3Guppy, I believe, was the poster in question. For all I know, SSR could be another incarnation of the same beast.
why not have a forum for private pilots to ask questions and to exchange ideas where Pprune will check out the background of genuine pilots who want to contribute useful advice
when there is a problem cull the answers from posters who are trolls.
Please remember that PPRuNe is 100% voluntary - both in terms of the moderation and the membership - and having genuine pilots continuing to contribute voluntarily has much more of an impact on keeping the signal-to-noise ratio high than the efforts of a handful of volunteer moderators.
SD
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Biggest fraudster /Crook was GoldenEaglePilot who even fooled pprune for so long so not much hope in checking people out ??
That guy GEP has never been mentioned since or the messages deleted if you did.
Most genuine pilots here are known real world by others in the forums and that is the best bet
Pace
That guy GEP has never been mentioned since or the messages deleted if you did.
Most genuine pilots here are known real world by others in the forums and that is the best bet
Pace