Rough reception at Popham!
If there are other aircraft in the circuit then you were a **** to go straight onto base. Even if said traffic gave their positions to give you a mental picture of the situation , Unless you can see them take it with a pinch of salt, as one mans downwind is bloody miles away from someone elses! Oh and by the way, if you want REAL abuse on the radio/ground, go further west to He.....e(tarmac)!
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Monocock.
You appear to be more involved in this affair than some of us to have received said email.
You appear to know more than you are telling this public forum.
You appear to be more involved in this affair than some of us to have received said email.
You appear to know more than you are telling this public forum.
I may be wrong & you know no more than the rest of us
My email to the person on the radio was completely out of the blue for him and he didn't have to respond to it. But, he did, because he's perfectly reasonable as a person and had the OP been genuinely keen to proactively resolve the issue, he too could have emailed the person himself for a full briefing of what it was he did upon arrival that was wrong.
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I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk.
I was absolutely shocked. I completely agree that A/G radio is not the appropriate medium to issue b*****ings, regardless of the perceived faults of the person on the receiving end.
Come on Popham! You used to be great, and now you're driving customers away. If you're unsure how your radio operators ought to behave, go to a club like White Waltham, and ask them to show you. They are polite and know when to let something slide and when to have a DISCREET word. Its that level of CUSTOMER SERVICE that keeps people coming back.
I was absolutely shocked. I completely agree that A/G radio is not the appropriate medium to issue b*****ings, regardless of the perceived faults of the person on the receiving end.
Come on Popham! You used to be great, and now you're driving customers away. If you're unsure how your radio operators ought to behave, go to a club like White Waltham, and ask them to show you. They are polite and know when to let something slide and when to have a DISCREET word. Its that level of CUSTOMER SERVICE that keeps people coming back.
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I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk.
D.O.
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I do not usually get involved with petty squabbles on these forums but as it has been brought to my attention I will give the Popham side of this saga. This is the only post you will get.
As the main radio operator I always make every effort to answer all aircraft fairly and promptly even when we are really busy. I fully agree that an A/G cannot “control” anything (even though Farnborough, Lasham, and Solent Radar still refer to us as ATC).
I will attempt to deal with some FACTS for the initial posting.
On Sunday 13th January Popham had steady traffic all day and the radio was in constant use. I had been working since 08:30 and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. There was no telephone PPR call from this pilot or he would have been told this. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft.
There were two aircraft in the circuit that had called earlier some way to the north, a Pietenpol and a Sky Ranger (registrations available if you wish to ask). The first call from the aircraft in question was “OL base for 03” (N.B. no full call sign). I radioed the aircraft to see if I had perhaps missed an earlier call to get the full call sign and was then given it without question. The aircraft (now observed for the first time as a KitFox) then cut directly in front of the Pietenpol already on the correct final for R03. As I fly a Pietenpol myself I am aware that the P1 view from the back cockpit of a Pietenpol is limited on finals so I radioed that the KitFox had cut in and the Pietenpol replied that he could manage the approach and landed safely behind the KitFox. At no time was any “slanging off” done by myself to the KitFox on the radio.
An A/G operator can make any calls they like in the interests of safety.
The following conversation took place at the desk (NOT on the radio).
When the pilot came to book in I asked him in a normal tone if he had a problem with his radio due to his sole short call on base leg. He replied that had had called at Chilbolton and as he received no reply had continued inbound. I pointed out in a normal tone that he had cut into the circuit in front of the Pietenpol whereupon he got quite aggressive and sarcastically asked if I was giving” Radar Vectors” as well. (Note: If I had been he would have been on a proper final like everyone else!). Whilst there is no basic problem with joining on a base leg, if he had not received a response from me at Chilbolton he should possibly have joined overhead and followed the other aircraft already in the circuit. He said he had seen the Pietenpol on finals but did not consider it a problem. I was then called “rude” and I said I would “agree to differ with him” and it was left at that. All the time this conversation was going on I was still working the radio.
Speaking afterwards to both the Pietenpol pilot and the Sky Ranger pilots, they both stated that they had been monitoring the traffic from some way out and neither had heard any call from the KitFox until the base call. Only the KitFox pilot would know if he had actually made calls and received no answer.
Quote: “A CAA R/T Examiner with just short of 10,000 hours in various disciplines” should really query the airmanship of making an incorrect radio call (only gave his short call sign) and joining short left base in front of an aircraft already on finals. The pilot was NEVER “Roasted” by me, simply initially queried about his radio possibly not functioning, and did not have to be so objectionable when checking in and then posting an exaggerated tale on these forums, trying to give Popham a bad name.
I stand by my actions in these circumstances and welcome anyone to sit with me on the radio, listening to calls of extremely variable quality, at Popham when we are busy and see how a simple A/G operator has to manage a “Crystal Ball” to sometimes divine what is going on from the only “Tower” in England that is below the level of the runway!
As the main radio operator I always make every effort to answer all aircraft fairly and promptly even when we are really busy. I fully agree that an A/G cannot “control” anything (even though Farnborough, Lasham, and Solent Radar still refer to us as ATC).
I will attempt to deal with some FACTS for the initial posting.
On Sunday 13th January Popham had steady traffic all day and the radio was in constant use. I had been working since 08:30 and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. There was no telephone PPR call from this pilot or he would have been told this. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft.
There were two aircraft in the circuit that had called earlier some way to the north, a Pietenpol and a Sky Ranger (registrations available if you wish to ask). The first call from the aircraft in question was “OL base for 03” (N.B. no full call sign). I radioed the aircraft to see if I had perhaps missed an earlier call to get the full call sign and was then given it without question. The aircraft (now observed for the first time as a KitFox) then cut directly in front of the Pietenpol already on the correct final for R03. As I fly a Pietenpol myself I am aware that the P1 view from the back cockpit of a Pietenpol is limited on finals so I radioed that the KitFox had cut in and the Pietenpol replied that he could manage the approach and landed safely behind the KitFox. At no time was any “slanging off” done by myself to the KitFox on the radio.
An A/G operator can make any calls they like in the interests of safety.
The following conversation took place at the desk (NOT on the radio).
When the pilot came to book in I asked him in a normal tone if he had a problem with his radio due to his sole short call on base leg. He replied that had had called at Chilbolton and as he received no reply had continued inbound. I pointed out in a normal tone that he had cut into the circuit in front of the Pietenpol whereupon he got quite aggressive and sarcastically asked if I was giving” Radar Vectors” as well. (Note: If I had been he would have been on a proper final like everyone else!). Whilst there is no basic problem with joining on a base leg, if he had not received a response from me at Chilbolton he should possibly have joined overhead and followed the other aircraft already in the circuit. He said he had seen the Pietenpol on finals but did not consider it a problem. I was then called “rude” and I said I would “agree to differ with him” and it was left at that. All the time this conversation was going on I was still working the radio.
Speaking afterwards to both the Pietenpol pilot and the Sky Ranger pilots, they both stated that they had been monitoring the traffic from some way out and neither had heard any call from the KitFox until the base call. Only the KitFox pilot would know if he had actually made calls and received no answer.
Quote: “A CAA R/T Examiner with just short of 10,000 hours in various disciplines” should really query the airmanship of making an incorrect radio call (only gave his short call sign) and joining short left base in front of an aircraft already on finals. The pilot was NEVER “Roasted” by me, simply initially queried about his radio possibly not functioning, and did not have to be so objectionable when checking in and then posting an exaggerated tale on these forums, trying to give Popham a bad name.
I stand by my actions in these circumstances and welcome anyone to sit with me on the radio, listening to calls of extremely variable quality, at Popham when we are busy and see how a simple A/G operator has to manage a “Crystal Ball” to sometimes divine what is going on from the only “Tower” in England that is below the level of the runway!
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Popham is a delightful airfield with a/g and I have had nothing but friendliness and politeness from the radio (and everyone else) on the many occasions I have visited.
Some might say the original poster is a troublemaking troll. I couldn't possibly comment.
Some might say the original poster is a troublemaking troll. I couldn't possibly comment.
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I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk.
The A/G operator only answered calls sporadically when I was joining, and after I'd landed I asked him where he wanted me to park. No answer. So I parked up near to the clubhouse, went into the building (expecting the usual friendly airfield welcome), and had to wait while the miserable s*d behind the desk was having a loud argument with someone on the phone. Then he hung up and started to give me a rollocking for parking too close to the building! He shut up when I pointed out some of the club aircraft were parked closer!
When I left he ordered me to depart on the runway with trees on the end, rather than the other runway as I "wasn't familiar with the noise abatement procedures" even though I'm a qualified PPL and they don't look that difficult.
Shame really because it seems like a nice airfield, just lets itself down slightly on the customer service front.
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Having just looked at the Popham website again, there is a A/G radio guy who is a fine musical legend 
Some music while we await the statement.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...P7TcKSHqZBqA8w
Some music while we await the statement.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...P7TcKSHqZBqA8w
Last edited by Richard Westnot; 16th Jan 2013 at 12:03.
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From the man himself..
He's unable to get it to post for some reason so I'm doing it on his behalf.
He's unable to get it to post for some reason so I'm doing it on his behalf.
I do not usually get involved with petty squabbles on these forums bit as it has been brought to my attention I will give the Popham side of this saga. This is the only post you will get.
As the main radio operator I always make every effort to answer all aircraft fairly and promptly even when we are really busy. I fully agree that an A/G cannot “control” anything (even though Farnborough, Lasham, and Solent Radar still refer to us as ATC).
I will attempt to deal with some FACTS for the initial posting.
On Sunday 13th January Popham had steady traffic all day and the radio was in constant use. I had been working since 08:30 and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. There was no telephone PPR call from this pilot or he would have been told this. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft.
There were two aircraft in the circuit that had called earlier some way to the north, a Pietenpol and a Sky Ranger (registrations available if you wish to ask). The first call from the aircraft in question was “OL base for 03” (N.B. no full call sign). I radioed the aircraft to see if I had perhaps missed an earlier call to get the full call sign and was then given it without question. The aircraft (now observed for the first time as a KitFox) then cut directly in front of the Pietenpol already on the correct final for R03. As I fly a Pietenpol myself I am aware that the P1 view from the back cockpit of a Pietenpol is limited on finals so I radioed that the KitFox had cut in and the Pietenpol replied that he could manage the approach and landed safely behind the KitFox. At no time was any “slanging off” done by myself to the KitFox on the radio.
An A/G operator can make any calls they like in the interests of safety.
The following conversation took place at the desk (NOT on the radio).
When the pilot came to book in I asked him in a normal tone if he had a problem with his radio due to his sole short call on base leg. He replied that had had called at Chilbolton and as he received no reply had continued inbound. I pointed out in a normal tone that he had cut into the circuit in front of the Pietenpol whereupon he got quite aggressive and sarcastically asked if I was giving” Radar Vectors” as well. (Note: If I had been he would have been on a proper final like everyone else!). Whilst there is no basic problem with joining on a base leg, if he had not received a response from me at Chilbolton he should possibly have joined overhead and followed the other aircraft already in the circuit. He said he had seen the Pietenpol on finals but did not consider it a problem. I was then called “rude” and I said I would “agree to differ with him” and it was left at that. All the time this conversation was going on I was still working the radio.
Speaking afterwards to both the Pietenpol pilot and the Sky Ranger pilots, they both stated that they had been monitoring the traffic from some way out and neither had heard any call from the KitFox until the base call. Only the KitFox pilot would know if he had actually made calls and received no answer.
Quote: “A CAA R/T Examiner with just short of 10,000 hours in various disciplines” should really query the airmanship of making an incorrect radio call (only gave his short call sign) and joining short left base in front of an aircraft already on finals. The pilot was NEVER “Roasted” by me, simply initially queried about his radio possibly not functioning, and did not have to be so objectionable when checking in and then posting an exaggerated tale on these forums, trying to give Popham a bad name.
I stand by my actions in these circumstances and welcome anyone to sit with me on the radio, listening to calls of extremely variable quality, at Popham when we are busy and see how a simple A/G operator has to manage a “Crystal Ball” to sometimes divine what is going on from the only “Tower” in England that is below the level of the runway!
As the main radio operator I always make every effort to answer all aircraft fairly and promptly even when we are really busy. I fully agree that an A/G cannot “control” anything (even though Farnborough, Lasham, and Solent Radar still refer to us as ATC).
I will attempt to deal with some FACTS for the initial posting.
On Sunday 13th January Popham had steady traffic all day and the radio was in constant use. I had been working since 08:30 and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. There was no telephone PPR call from this pilot or he would have been told this. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft.
There were two aircraft in the circuit that had called earlier some way to the north, a Pietenpol and a Sky Ranger (registrations available if you wish to ask). The first call from the aircraft in question was “OL base for 03” (N.B. no full call sign). I radioed the aircraft to see if I had perhaps missed an earlier call to get the full call sign and was then given it without question. The aircraft (now observed for the first time as a KitFox) then cut directly in front of the Pietenpol already on the correct final for R03. As I fly a Pietenpol myself I am aware that the P1 view from the back cockpit of a Pietenpol is limited on finals so I radioed that the KitFox had cut in and the Pietenpol replied that he could manage the approach and landed safely behind the KitFox. At no time was any “slanging off” done by myself to the KitFox on the radio.
An A/G operator can make any calls they like in the interests of safety.
The following conversation took place at the desk (NOT on the radio).
When the pilot came to book in I asked him in a normal tone if he had a problem with his radio due to his sole short call on base leg. He replied that had had called at Chilbolton and as he received no reply had continued inbound. I pointed out in a normal tone that he had cut into the circuit in front of the Pietenpol whereupon he got quite aggressive and sarcastically asked if I was giving” Radar Vectors” as well. (Note: If I had been he would have been on a proper final like everyone else!). Whilst there is no basic problem with joining on a base leg, if he had not received a response from me at Chilbolton he should possibly have joined overhead and followed the other aircraft already in the circuit. He said he had seen the Pietenpol on finals but did not consider it a problem. I was then called “rude” and I said I would “agree to differ with him” and it was left at that. All the time this conversation was going on I was still working the radio.
Speaking afterwards to both the Pietenpol pilot and the Sky Ranger pilots, they both stated that they had been monitoring the traffic from some way out and neither had heard any call from the KitFox until the base call. Only the KitFox pilot would know if he had actually made calls and received no answer.
Quote: “A CAA R/T Examiner with just short of 10,000 hours in various disciplines” should really query the airmanship of making an incorrect radio call (only gave his short call sign) and joining short left base in front of an aircraft already on finals. The pilot was NEVER “Roasted” by me, simply initially queried about his radio possibly not functioning, and did not have to be so objectionable when checking in and then posting an exaggerated tale on these forums, trying to give Popham a bad name.
I stand by my actions in these circumstances and welcome anyone to sit with me on the radio, listening to calls of extremely variable quality, at Popham when we are busy and see how a simple A/G operator has to manage a “Crystal Ball” to sometimes divine what is going on from the only “Tower” in England that is below the level of the runway!
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and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft.
PUBLISH NOTAMS. READ THE NOTAMS.
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 16th Jan 2013 at 12:23.
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and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft. We've established that telephoning is clearly time wasting for both callers and the recipients. Why do you think doctors are moving off the telephone based booking system?
PUBLISH NOTAMS. READ THE NOTAMS.
PUBLISH NOTAMS. READ THE NOTAMS.
They can give you the latest gen on issues like quality of the runway surface and local weather. Quite a few airfields have tricky nuances in their joining procedures and noise abatement procedures which are best discussed before you visit.
As per the previous posts NOTAMS are important but can never give you the full picture of what is happening on that day at that particular field.
Not sure I understand the relevance of doctors' booking systems!?
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Quote:
I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk.
This must be a local rule. Is it published?
D.O.
I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk.
This must be a local rule. Is it published?
D.O.
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Originally Posted by EcamSurprise
... a a/g operator (who refers to himself as ATC on the website..)
The website is at pains to point out that they are not ATC, despite what others (including agencies who do know better but are using shorthand) might call them:
Originally Posted by Popham
N.B. The Rules! It is a CAA requirement as CAP413 now includes the paragraph:
"It is correct procedure to announce identity on all telephone calls: with incoming calls it is the opening remark and with outgoing calls it is the reply to the recipient’s announcement of identity. FISOs and AGCS operators must never identify themselves as '....air traffic control'."
Popham radio is Air/Ground and as such is NOT Air Traffic "Control", however the generic term "ATC" is widely used as everyone seems to understand this abbreviation! Even Solent Radar, Farnborough, Lasham, Boscombe, Odiham, etc., still call us on the phone and ask for "ATC"! Perhaps we should just use "AT"!
We get numerous calls asking for us to correct the "ATC" question so before you write in again the answer is the same - all we can do is repeat the above!
"It is correct procedure to announce identity on all telephone calls: with incoming calls it is the opening remark and with outgoing calls it is the reply to the recipient’s announcement of identity. FISOs and AGCS operators must never identify themselves as '....air traffic control'."
Popham radio is Air/Ground and as such is NOT Air Traffic "Control", however the generic term "ATC" is widely used as everyone seems to understand this abbreviation! Even Solent Radar, Farnborough, Lasham, Boscombe, Odiham, etc., still call us on the phone and ask for "ATC"! Perhaps we should just use "AT"!
We get numerous calls asking for us to correct the "ATC" question so before you write in again the answer is the same - all we can do is repeat the above!
Popham: Great place, great people. "If Carlsberg made unlicenced airfields..."
Don't let a storm in an electronic teacup put you off.
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mmmm .... if the individual is who I think it is, then I had some 'experience' of him providing guest a/g radio service at a certain Scottish airfield several years ago.
Despite it being a/g I seem to remember he was directing aircraft and getting somewhat upset at anyone who did their own thing without his clearance.
I wasn’t bollocked but got a sarcastic remark on departure. It was my first time on grass in this particular type, which was rather underpowered and had a propensity to use quite a bit of runway. Therefore I back tracked, turned and started the takeoff run without a full stop line up. Can’t quite remember what was said, but it was something along the lines of 'feel free to takeoff from my airfield whenever you like'. Not exactly what was needed when I had a high workload and was somewhat tense.
A complaint was lodged with the Manager with overall responsibility. No idea what happened as shortly thereafter he was sent to Coventry I believe.
Despite it being a/g I seem to remember he was directing aircraft and getting somewhat upset at anyone who did their own thing without his clearance.
I wasn’t bollocked but got a sarcastic remark on departure. It was my first time on grass in this particular type, which was rather underpowered and had a propensity to use quite a bit of runway. Therefore I back tracked, turned and started the takeoff run without a full stop line up. Can’t quite remember what was said, but it was something along the lines of 'feel free to takeoff from my airfield whenever you like'. Not exactly what was needed when I had a high workload and was somewhat tense.
A complaint was lodged with the Manager with overall responsibility. No idea what happened as shortly thereafter he was sent to Coventry
I believe.
Last edited by 140KIAS; 16th Jan 2013 at 16:12.
Now then, now then. Calm down folks. Just go non radio and use two eyes, instead of one mouth. Popham is a nice friendly place which doesn't require you to sign your first born child away to use their grass. There are very few things worth getting so wound up about, and IMHO this isn't one of them.
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I tend to believe Chris Thompson of the two.
I've flown from Popham on and off for years, in a lot of types. I've witnessed several bollockings (thankfully never received any -at Popham anyhow), which were all:-
(a) Delivered on the ground, and
(b) For flying over the Petrol station.
I've seen Chris in action whilst enjoying tea and cake, or flying circuits, and whilst he tends to be a little dour, I've never seen him less than professional in his conduct.
It is however 'injun country around there - and traffic can come from anywhere, and be talking on any or no frequency. Everybody should behave accordingly.
P
I've flown from Popham on and off for years, in a lot of types. I've witnessed several bollockings (thankfully never received any -at Popham anyhow), which were all:-
(a) Delivered on the ground, and
(b) For flying over the Petrol station.
I've seen Chris in action whilst enjoying tea and cake, or flying circuits, and whilst he tends to be a little dour, I've never seen him less than professional in his conduct.
It is however 'injun country around there - and traffic can come from anywhere, and be talking on any or no frequency. Everybody should behave accordingly.
P
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I really don't know what to make of this now. I was rather hoping that OscarZulu
would have come back to substantiate either his, or the other statement.
Safety, is paramount and that is why I took the view that I did. We have today all witnessed an horrendous accident with an extremely experienced pilot involved, obviously working in a high pressure (weather) environment.
It can happen to any one of us, nobody is infallible.
"If" the a/g operator is course with his words, probably now is the time to reflect upon what some have said here. I do not wish Popham or indeed the a/g operator any harm whatsoever.
On that basis, I apologise to Mono and I understand why you said what you did.
I now plan to fly into Popham when the runways have dried out and sample the ambience that has been described by many.
would have come back to substantiate either his, or the other statement.
Safety, is paramount and that is why I took the view that I did. We have today all witnessed an horrendous accident with an extremely experienced pilot involved, obviously working in a high pressure (weather) environment.
It can happen to any one of us, nobody is infallible.
"If" the a/g operator is course with his words, probably now is the time to reflect upon what some have said here. I do not wish Popham or indeed the a/g operator any harm whatsoever.
On that basis, I apologise to Mono and I understand why you said what you did.
I now plan to fly into Popham when the runways have dried out and sample the ambience that has been described by many.
Last edited by Richard Westnot; 16th Jan 2013 at 20:12. Reason: spell