Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
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Hey, Fuji Abound, I have no problem at all with the OP or anyone else with deep pockets spending their no doubt hard earned money on the sexiest aircraft available and flying it solo all over the world.
Eventually after being frightened a few times, and realising exactly how expensive and impractical it is to use a light aircraft as transportation, they will realise that the true purpose of GA is having fun. You and I and most of the senior posters on this forum probably have several thousand hours of experience, and spent a lot of money on Cof As, insurance, repairs, hangarage, fuel, maintenance, etc etc etc. And spent a couple of extra days on a journey stuck on an island somewhere as a tropical storm/an embedded thunderstorm with tops to 35,000', or typical British weather, makes it necessary to stay away from home longer than planned.
Lots and lots of people all over the world would love to become airline pilots, thinking of the uniform, the attractive cabin crew, the respectful passengers, the Tower saying United 747, cleared for takeoff, and the powerful jet thrust as you push the throttles forward and the heavy surges into the sky for another 9 hour trip across the Atlantic. O yes. Thinking flying light aircraft will eventually lead to such a career, and then you find out you are a flying bus driver, and most of the time it is exceedingly tedious, and the cabin crew won't even talk to you because a few years back some of the pilots crossed a picket line, and you are locked in a very tight cockpit stuck in your seat for most of those nine hours, breathing interesting fumes and developing DVT....great career!
But at least you have more experience than the average PPL, and you and the system usually bring the trusting passengers safely to the destination.
No, I have no problem with expensive sexy aircraft, especially if they are gliders, now there is the state of the art! but what I object to is the mindset of the newbe that he would love to impress the friends and family by taking them flying. I can still remember taking one of my sons up, and coming very close to a midair, and another son up and he spent most of the flight throwing up.
Taking up the public for flight experience, and I've done a lot of that, in a glider, as soon as they go quiet and pale, you can land in five minutes. On a cross country power trip, it is really not a lot of fun for a passenger.
End of rant.
Eventually after being frightened a few times, and realising exactly how expensive and impractical it is to use a light aircraft as transportation, they will realise that the true purpose of GA is having fun. You and I and most of the senior posters on this forum probably have several thousand hours of experience, and spent a lot of money on Cof As, insurance, repairs, hangarage, fuel, maintenance, etc etc etc. And spent a couple of extra days on a journey stuck on an island somewhere as a tropical storm/an embedded thunderstorm with tops to 35,000', or typical British weather, makes it necessary to stay away from home longer than planned.
Lots and lots of people all over the world would love to become airline pilots, thinking of the uniform, the attractive cabin crew, the respectful passengers, the Tower saying United 747, cleared for takeoff, and the powerful jet thrust as you push the throttles forward and the heavy surges into the sky for another 9 hour trip across the Atlantic. O yes. Thinking flying light aircraft will eventually lead to such a career, and then you find out you are a flying bus driver, and most of the time it is exceedingly tedious, and the cabin crew won't even talk to you because a few years back some of the pilots crossed a picket line, and you are locked in a very tight cockpit stuck in your seat for most of those nine hours, breathing interesting fumes and developing DVT....great career!
But at least you have more experience than the average PPL, and you and the system usually bring the trusting passengers safely to the destination.
No, I have no problem with expensive sexy aircraft, especially if they are gliders, now there is the state of the art! but what I object to is the mindset of the newbe that he would love to impress the friends and family by taking them flying. I can still remember taking one of my sons up, and coming very close to a midair, and another son up and he spent most of the flight throwing up.
Taking up the public for flight experience, and I've done a lot of that, in a glider, as soon as they go quiet and pale, you can land in five minutes. On a cross country power trip, it is really not a lot of fun for a passenger.
End of rant.
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Thbochert
You have obviously been crusing around the cheap end of the market were people don't look after their PA28's, you won't find any aircraft in the condition you describe at my local flying club.
All the PA28's at the Airways Flying Club at EGTB are kept in first class condition inside and out, this seems to prove that your statements about PA28's are more of a reflection of the end of the market you are frequenting rather than the aircraft it's self.
All the PA28's at the Airways Flying Club at EGTB are kept in first class condition inside and out, this seems to prove that your statements about PA28's are more of a reflection of the end of the market you are frequenting rather than the aircraft it's self.
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All the PA28's at the Airways Flying Club at EGTB are kept in first class condition inside and out,
Should I really be the only one here that considers a PA-28 to be functional yet utterly unattractive especially to newcomers, I'm happy to learn that all hope is lost.
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I have yet to find someone who thinks that when they learn to drive a car or a motorcycle they will be presented with a new BMW M3 or Ducati at the driving school, they would expect a functional car or motorcycle no more, no less.
The PA28 meets the same needs for the new pilot.
The PA28 meets the same needs for the new pilot.
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Most don't care two hoots to be honest.
Most people don't have a clue whats new and whats old.
The plastic pigs alot of folk don't actually like because they don't look like an aircraft that they percieve. High wings also are less favoured than low wings. Also the auld tin cans look more robust than the new machines mainly because they are.
Stick a new shiny paint job on an aircraft, new carpets and a seat refurb and 95% of the clueless will think its spanking new. The fact that the engines compression are on the limits and all the filters are blocked on the vacum system is neither here or there.
Yes there are folk out there that have an eye for the bling electronics but most especially in scotland when given the choice of bling or paying less money per hour will always go for the cheaper option.
Most people don't have a clue whats new and whats old.
The plastic pigs alot of folk don't actually like because they don't look like an aircraft that they percieve. High wings also are less favoured than low wings. Also the auld tin cans look more robust than the new machines mainly because they are.
Stick a new shiny paint job on an aircraft, new carpets and a seat refurb and 95% of the clueless will think its spanking new. The fact that the engines compression are on the limits and all the filters are blocked on the vacum system is neither here or there.
Yes there are folk out there that have an eye for the bling electronics but most especially in scotland when given the choice of bling or paying less money per hour will always go for the cheaper option.
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Mary
There is a great deal in your last post with which I agree. Light aircraft in this country are almost never a practical means of transport. I actually use mine for this purpose but I realise it is rare. I am fortunate in being able to decide if the weather is unsuitable and able to rearrange my trips in some other way if it is not. There are times when I use the aircraft for business that come with a big smile - of course I enjoy the flying, but more importantly I need only think of the times I have been in traffic on the M25 for hours on end to appreciate flying.
Experience counts for so much. Doesn't everyone who learns to fly have unrealistic perceptions. I recall when I thought light aircraft were a practical means of transport. A few holidays to Europe with returns planned on a particular day soon put pay to those perceptions. Do we all get too close to the edge? I suspect we do. I have certainly done a few very stupid things which could have turned out very differently - I guess I got lucky. Flying is as safe or as dangerous as you make it, a bit like cycling, and even then we still dance on the head of a pin to some degree.
The glamour of commercial flying is just another allusion of flying that seduce many. While I cant write from personal experience, I do know a number of commercial pilots well. They all tell me without exception that on balance they have enjoyed their careers - this is a sentiment I rarely hear expressed about other careers. Good for them. On the other hand I do note they all say times are changing - and they would think carefully about the same career again. Like many things in life - its not what it was!
As to light aircraft, some couldnt care what they fly, some like the challenge of aeros, some like a sleek tourer, some glide - each to their own. I have flown my share of well used rental aircraft, and on the whole they are fine. I make no bones, these days I like something that is reasonably quick, I like a cockpit that is clean, functional and dry rather than musty, tired and littered with u/s placards. I enjoy aeros and tail wheel but I would rather fly an Extra for aeros and tour in a Cirrus. As you may have guessed, I like two engines or a chute.
Were I starting out again would I do it differently? In some respects, I would. I would have joined a group of seasoned pilots much sooner - a group that was willing to pass on their experience. I would spend some money with a good club that had a variety of aircraft on their fleet as soon as I had got between 50 and 100 post PPL hours to my credit - if I could afford to. I would do an instrument qualification as soon I was certain I was going to keep flying and could afford to do so. If I found I enjoyed flying a Cirrus and could afford to do so that is what I would have done. If I had commercial aspirations I would have listened to the excellent advice here and else where and thought carefully about what sort of flying I needed to do to give me the best opportunity of pursuing that career.
.. .. but yes, most of us fly for pleasure. Isn't it always the case that when a hobby becomes a business it changes fundamentally - sometimes to the good, sometimes it shatters all of your illusions. My friend is a commercial long haul training captain - he dead heads into Heathrow, does his stint, and then calls me to ask if we can go do some aeros. I tell him yes, but you are mad. He says totally, but this is flying, the day job pays the bills. As they say across the Pond - go figure.
There is a great deal in your last post with which I agree. Light aircraft in this country are almost never a practical means of transport. I actually use mine for this purpose but I realise it is rare. I am fortunate in being able to decide if the weather is unsuitable and able to rearrange my trips in some other way if it is not. There are times when I use the aircraft for business that come with a big smile - of course I enjoy the flying, but more importantly I need only think of the times I have been in traffic on the M25 for hours on end to appreciate flying.
Experience counts for so much. Doesn't everyone who learns to fly have unrealistic perceptions. I recall when I thought light aircraft were a practical means of transport. A few holidays to Europe with returns planned on a particular day soon put pay to those perceptions. Do we all get too close to the edge? I suspect we do. I have certainly done a few very stupid things which could have turned out very differently - I guess I got lucky. Flying is as safe or as dangerous as you make it, a bit like cycling, and even then we still dance on the head of a pin to some degree.
The glamour of commercial flying is just another allusion of flying that seduce many. While I cant write from personal experience, I do know a number of commercial pilots well. They all tell me without exception that on balance they have enjoyed their careers - this is a sentiment I rarely hear expressed about other careers. Good for them. On the other hand I do note they all say times are changing - and they would think carefully about the same career again. Like many things in life - its not what it was!
As to light aircraft, some couldnt care what they fly, some like the challenge of aeros, some like a sleek tourer, some glide - each to their own. I have flown my share of well used rental aircraft, and on the whole they are fine. I make no bones, these days I like something that is reasonably quick, I like a cockpit that is clean, functional and dry rather than musty, tired and littered with u/s placards. I enjoy aeros and tail wheel but I would rather fly an Extra for aeros and tour in a Cirrus. As you may have guessed, I like two engines or a chute.
Were I starting out again would I do it differently? In some respects, I would. I would have joined a group of seasoned pilots much sooner - a group that was willing to pass on their experience. I would spend some money with a good club that had a variety of aircraft on their fleet as soon as I had got between 50 and 100 post PPL hours to my credit - if I could afford to. I would do an instrument qualification as soon I was certain I was going to keep flying and could afford to do so. If I found I enjoyed flying a Cirrus and could afford to do so that is what I would have done. If I had commercial aspirations I would have listened to the excellent advice here and else where and thought carefully about what sort of flying I needed to do to give me the best opportunity of pursuing that career.
.. .. but yes, most of us fly for pleasure. Isn't it always the case that when a hobby becomes a business it changes fundamentally - sometimes to the good, sometimes it shatters all of your illusions. My friend is a commercial long haul training captain - he dead heads into Heathrow, does his stint, and then calls me to ask if we can go do some aeros. I tell him yes, but you are mad. He says totally, but this is flying, the day job pays the bills. As they say across the Pond - go figure.
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Should I really be the only one here that considers a PA-28 to be functional yet utterly unattractive especially to newcomers...
The *only* reason we stick w/old heaps like Warriors or mid-70s Skyhawks is cost.
The majority of newcomers are price-sensitive (private flying is ridiculously expensive), and *price* is the single determining factor for most student pilots.
One of my flight schools had a line-up of SportStars, Piper Warriors & C172 RG for their private & commercial training. The SportStar rented for about 10% less than the spamcans & I never heard *anyone* mention "how cool it'd be to fly one of those Warriors". The private students always went straight for the cheapest option.
A few years ago the flight school had a C152 as well, which was quite popular due to the low rental. Interestingly, I rarely see any of those around anymore - I suspect the mighty C152 is finally reaching its end-of-life broadly speaking...
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Hohja
There are none of the VLA aircraft yet on the market that are robust enough to replace the Cessna 152, any one who try's to operate them on a flight school will soon find out this is the case and be trying to find good C152's that have had the SID's checks done.
The airframe life of a C152 is 30,000 hours a quick look at the construction of a VLA will show you that one is unlikely to make 5000 hours........no matter how sexy you may think they look the numbers simply won't stack up.
The airframe life of a C152 is 30,000 hours a quick look at the construction of a VLA will show you that one is unlikely to make 5000 hours........no matter how sexy you may think they look the numbers simply won't stack up.
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Just to clarify a few things, which I have already repeated before:
- I certainly do not have "deep pockets". I am looking to be as financially conservative as possible, being a student at university, while balancing this with the benefit of a more modern airplane. As it is, the Cirrus group I've found would allow me to fly for less than a lot of PA28s/172s etc I've found in the NW. Especially considering an equity group isn't an option due to costs. I appreciate one or two of you do not believe the costs are viable and that the group is likely to fold, but that's another matter.
- I am not certain the Cirrus is what I want to go for, it is simply an option I'm not ruling out at this stage. It may be that I start out in one airplane and change later on. It could also be that I fly more than one plane regularly for my hour building, as I've found good offers on hour building rates at various places during quiet periods etc.
- Whilst I am not 100% certain I want to fly commercially, I am working on the assumption I will for now to keep my options open. I want to be instrument rated in some way no matter where I end up, and any of those options available to me require some hour building anyway - so I still have time to decide later.
- I understand there are various risks with regards to my skills if I go flying a glass cockpit like the Cirrus as opposed to some steam gauge warrior. However, I've already said several times that I appreciate the importance of basic skills and that I do intend to keep them sharp, no matter what I end up flying, for the rest of my flying life.
Once again, I really do appreciate all the time and effort people have put into their advice, but a debate is really not relevant to what I'm looking for which is any advice people might have on club/group etc airplanes I can fly in my area (NW). I appreciate now I should probably have started a new thread with a different title for that.
- I certainly do not have "deep pockets". I am looking to be as financially conservative as possible, being a student at university, while balancing this with the benefit of a more modern airplane. As it is, the Cirrus group I've found would allow me to fly for less than a lot of PA28s/172s etc I've found in the NW. Especially considering an equity group isn't an option due to costs. I appreciate one or two of you do not believe the costs are viable and that the group is likely to fold, but that's another matter.
- I am not certain the Cirrus is what I want to go for, it is simply an option I'm not ruling out at this stage. It may be that I start out in one airplane and change later on. It could also be that I fly more than one plane regularly for my hour building, as I've found good offers on hour building rates at various places during quiet periods etc.
- Whilst I am not 100% certain I want to fly commercially, I am working on the assumption I will for now to keep my options open. I want to be instrument rated in some way no matter where I end up, and any of those options available to me require some hour building anyway - so I still have time to decide later.
- I understand there are various risks with regards to my skills if I go flying a glass cockpit like the Cirrus as opposed to some steam gauge warrior. However, I've already said several times that I appreciate the importance of basic skills and that I do intend to keep them sharp, no matter what I end up flying, for the rest of my flying life.
Once again, I really do appreciate all the time and effort people have put into their advice, but a debate is really not relevant to what I'm looking for which is any advice people might have on club/group etc airplanes I can fly in my area (NW). I appreciate now I should probably have started a new thread with a different title for that.
Last edited by Odai; 26th Nov 2012 at 17:57.
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- I understand there are various risks with regards to my skills if I go flying a glass cockpit like the Cirrus as opposed to some steam gauge warrior. However, I've already said several times that I appreciate the importance of basic skills and that I do intend to keep them sharp, no matter what I end up flying, for the rest of my flying life.
The Cirrus is designed to flown that way. As said earlier it is a tourer.
You would not expect a Airbus to be flown using Conventional Navigation now would............but you are not listening, despite your protesting otherwise, so I will waste my time no more, after all all i am is a experienced Airline and Biz Jet pilot, you know better.
I wish you the very best of luck, you will need it
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I appreciate now I should probably have started a new thread with a different title for that.
If your title had been "Newbie looking to upgrade to C182" I bet you would have got at maybe 7 or 8 reply's and not 8 pages.
Either way good luck with your PPL, in my opinion fly whatever you like for the next 50-100 hours and do not think of it as hour building but just enjoying getting to grips with building skills.
In my totally uninformed opinion it probably will not make that much difference for a future commercial route if that ever became a reality (which is a tough path)
Rule the Cirrus out because I guess it will likely take you more than 10 hours to get anywhere near signed off and a bit of a waste of money that could be used for flying more of what you are already use to.
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certain infamous private investigator
A bit of gossip might be a tactic to get this thread locked...
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what ho! Our friend Odai has now disclosed he is a student at university....
Which accounts for a certain immaturity in his thinking.
Nevertheless it is always fun to indulge in a bit of cirrus bashing.....however, I was very impressed with a glider in Oregon that came with a built in ballistic recovery system....no need to wear a parachute! ( they were willing to let me fly the glider, but as I was unfamiliar with the territory, I declined). The glider, though still in the development stage - this was about 8 years ago - had already been tested in an emergency, and came down nicely in the wilderness.
A good landing is one you walk away from, a very good landing is one where you can use the aircraft again, and this rather nice glider, 14 meter wingspan I seem to recall, was able to be used again after they buffed a few dents out of the gelcoat....but then it was of a very light composite construction (like a dreamliner?) and so not as heavy as a Cirrus.
Which accounts for a certain immaturity in his thinking.
Nevertheless it is always fun to indulge in a bit of cirrus bashing.....however, I was very impressed with a glider in Oregon that came with a built in ballistic recovery system....no need to wear a parachute! ( they were willing to let me fly the glider, but as I was unfamiliar with the territory, I declined). The glider, though still in the development stage - this was about 8 years ago - had already been tested in an emergency, and came down nicely in the wilderness.
A good landing is one you walk away from, a very good landing is one where you can use the aircraft again, and this rather nice glider, 14 meter wingspan I seem to recall, was able to be used again after they buffed a few dents out of the gelcoat....but then it was of a very light composite construction (like a dreamliner?) and so not as heavy as a Cirrus.
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He's hardly a poor hard up student - to do his planned 6 hours per month at his quoted hire rates for the Cirrus, he's looking at spare cash of ~£700 per month. I wish I could afford that much.
why is it someone raises a question - even if its just for the sake of starting a conversation - and then it decends into a p155ing contest? either that or some private investigation where everyone presumes to know everything about everyone..
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why is it someone raises a question - even if its just for the sake of starting a conversation - and then it decends into a p155ing contest? either that or some private investigation where everyone presumes to know everything about everyone..
I initially asked for some advice regarding concerns I had about the suitability of the Cirrus for an inexperienced PPL. That was addressed. I then decided, instead of opening another thread, to ask for advice on looking for alternate aircraft. What followed next is clear....
I don't think it's appropriate at all and it's obvious I'm not about to get any useful advice out of this mess now, so best to just leave it before it gets worse. It's a shame, as there were some users who, very kindly, genuinely tried to help.
For the record, fwjc, this is my training and I consider it an investment for my future. I certainly won't be flying as often once I am qualified (not just because of the costs) so I may as well enjoy it for now and try to minimise the costs as best I can. Besides, I don't think comments about my personal financial situation are at all appropriate on the forum...
Above the Clouds, may I suggest if you don't find what I post agreeable you simply ignore it? Your posts here and my other thread aren't remotely useful and would only make the situation worse. If you think I'm a 'troll' that's fine, but I posted genuine questions and thankfully I did get some helpful advice.
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Make up your mind do you have a PPL or are you still under training
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Above the Clouds, from my first post:
"Hello,
I am finally close to completing my PPL, and have thus been considering my options for recreational hire, and possibly CPL hour building if I decide I want to work towards the fATPL. I am currently flying the PA28-161 (having flown the first half of my course on the Grob 115A). "
"Hello,
I am finally close to completing my PPL, and have thus been considering my options for recreational hire, and possibly CPL hour building if I decide I want to work towards the fATPL. I am currently flying the PA28-161 (having flown the first half of my course on the Grob 115A). "
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Above the clouds,
Are you serious? You can post any advice you want here, that's certainly more than welcome. But to start personal attacks at anyone who doesn't accept your posts as the gospel you seem to consider it, well, that's beyond ridiculous!
Are you serious? You can post any advice you want here, that's certainly more than welcome. But to start personal attacks at anyone who doesn't accept your posts as the gospel you seem to consider it, well, that's beyond ridiculous!
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The observations on your financial situation are based on information you have provided - firstly the monthly and hourly rates of the particular group you told us about and that you express an interest in, and secondly your statement that you plan to fly around 6 hours a month while you are hour building. The maths isn't difficult. If you don't want people to know what you have available to spend, don't give them the information.
I don't agree with the harsh troll accusations, although I had previously thought you might be trolling for fun (making trolling posts and being a troll are two different things, btw). But you do tend to come across as naive and willing to reject anything that goes against why you want to hear. I think that's a part of the reason for the sorry degradation of this thread into petty gossip and sniping - people have given up trying to offer you sensible advice and suggestions.
Fwiw, on the subject of suggestions, I still strongly recommend you get yourself a Class 1 medical. Just to be sure you really can get one, particularly given your history. It could significantly change your perspective and focus and save you from mis-spending money. One of my colleagues was convinced he couldn't get one and dismissed his dream but took a punt, tried it and got through. He's now flying for a living. Another thought it wouldn't be a problem, but they discovered a condition he didn't know he had and he's now limited to a class 2. He changed his career plans and is now an engineer and weekend PPL, with a lot less debt than the first guy.
I don't agree with the harsh troll accusations, although I had previously thought you might be trolling for fun (making trolling posts and being a troll are two different things, btw). But you do tend to come across as naive and willing to reject anything that goes against why you want to hear. I think that's a part of the reason for the sorry degradation of this thread into petty gossip and sniping - people have given up trying to offer you sensible advice and suggestions.
Fwiw, on the subject of suggestions, I still strongly recommend you get yourself a Class 1 medical. Just to be sure you really can get one, particularly given your history. It could significantly change your perspective and focus and save you from mis-spending money. One of my colleagues was convinced he couldn't get one and dismissed his dream but took a punt, tried it and got through. He's now flying for a living. Another thought it wouldn't be a problem, but they discovered a condition he didn't know he had and he's now limited to a class 2. He changed his career plans and is now an engineer and weekend PPL, with a lot less debt than the first guy.